These are issues as to why I think the Western Left will never do anything or succeed at anything. It's not exhaustive, but I do ask why other people here critical of the Western Left, think the Western Left has failed and will continue to fail to enact any sort of change whatsoever?
>Most Leftists are pretty ideologically antisocial, arrogant, elitist, do not like normies (especially working class people) and look down on them.
>Vast majority of what the Left does is ingroup virtue signalling. Every Protest, every newspaper sold, every shouting slogan, every cancellation, all anti-imperialism, isn't really done for a real purpose but virtue signalling and just group activities
>Leftists are holier than thou in the most moronic ways possible, they refuse to use modern PR, modern marketing, modern public speaking skills, Frame Communist and Socialist ideals in ways that are actually appealing and don't sound like a 1917 Larp.
>Because modern Leftism is a alternative scene, rather than a political movement, being a normal person who is charismatic, or works out, or good looking, is actually frowned upon.
>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.
>Anti-Imperialism never works because the left refuses to actually do anything to put themselves into positions where they have power to do anything actually anti-imperialist. It's mostly just seething and pointing at elites saying "LOOK YOU'RE BAD HYPOCRITS" while they respond "who cares?".
>Too many "Anti-Imperialists" just devolve into vulgar edgy campism. Many also seriously hope the third will will just rise up and save them.
>Shit like mass immigration is only supported because a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people and are wildly oikophobic and want to see "white people" suffer out of teenage level spite against boring suburban upbringings. Another is purely just a naieve white saviour complex or orientalism combined with christcuck morality that more "oppressed" groups are more moral.
>Most modern Leftists positions are really driven by peer ingroup "empathy" pressure than Materialism.
>Shitlib TikTok/Tumbler narratives take precedence over Marxism every time. I've seen countless dedicated Marxists purged from orgs over the years for not adhering to new incoherent Tumblr woketard line.
>Young Socialists are genuinely retarded yet make up most of the activist base. If a Leftist is frankly, under 30, they most likely are going to be arrogant, refuse to listen to more experienced members as fuck and wrong about everything. Younger members almost always push towards mindless militancy that just turns off regular people.
>Socialists over 55 have mostly just given up on any real serious change and usually just treat Socialist orgs as their social book club.
>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Same issue that the military has where intelligent people leave to greener pastures after 4-8 years leaving incompetents behind to run everything.
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context.
Been part of the organised left since the early 2000s to Covid. These are a tip of the iceberg of the issues I repetedly saw with near every group, and a vast majority of the left I interacted with.
>>2726879global 24/7 palantir surveillance
>>2726879I think the whole hope of "the left" is that a whole lot of new people that aren't currently on "the left" become "the left." For one because obviously, for political change, you need a mass of people, and two because so many of the people here currently suck.
Nothing but pure mental masturbators and pseudo-intellectual egomaniacs.
>>2726902Thinkimg more how to describe it, I think I got a slick explanation:
>We don't need anti-social socialistsI don't care how much theory or obscure communist history you read, if you are bad at socializing with people, how are you going to call yourself a socialist? We don't need you.
>>2726913Name one thing you succeeded in.
It pain me to admit it because i am someone who unironically Heil Breznhev and all that. But the USSR as well as vatious third-world communism like Chavismo are the actual failures who failed to deliver, not without trying or honor, but they still failed.
>>2726916I baited chuds on xitter when Charlie Kirk died of fentanyl overdose. What have you done spartacus?
>>2726879I actually agree with these to some degree. But I wouldn't say that the western left would never succeed.
I'd also add that lobbyists and governments spending years trying to make Communism look evil in the eyes of the public also why the western left is having problems radicalizing people. In the eyes of westerners (especially Americans) leftists just seem like they are just whiny children wanting to take away people's pickup trucks and peanut m&m's.
>>2726909>We don't need you.And yet here they are. The objective of (social)ists then should be to help their comrades resocialize. If we were to eject every anti-social socialist right off the bat then you'd be down a significant force.
>>2726923What characteristics make someone "radicalized?" Is it akin to the zeal of recent converts before they mellow out with experience?
>>2726926I don't know, you tell me, these terms are bandied about like dogma, but they always seem ill-defined. What is "agitating?" I think people are already well agitated. Maybe more than most leftists.
It will succeed, but mostly just through assisting the eastern left. It can't organize very well on it's own.
>title question
>first line of post is "here is my answer to the title question"
reported for unmarked AI bosting outside of a [code] tag.
>>2726942>eastern leftSuch as?
The /leftypol/-style Ostalgic hardcore left who is stuck in the past and spend more time hating other comrades than actually building anything at all will never succeed.
The normal touching grass left who is woke, gay and flawed but not afraid to commit mistake in order to grow much further has a good chance to win.
>>2726978Trvth. Also the mainstream woke left has stopped getting itself caught in brown ethnonarcissism and feminizionism bullshit while the "based alt left" only glaze China online while still obsessing about factionalist fueds from a trillion years ago.
Woke left has grown while the incestuous based left has stagnated.
>>2726978They’ve already won, this is the world in which that “left” already won
>>2726913>We actually succeeded on pretty much everything besides the left-econ aspect trvke
and that's a bad thing
>>2726899>>Old heads have mostly given up, or at least the ones left haveAt least in my country, I give them some leeway because they’ve dealt with real political oppression, Not a lecture or two being censored, but things like being locked up in rat filled prisons or having their relatives beaten or threatened. I understand why they’re more wary and cautious and I don’t hold it against them.
>>2727004I understand the frustation but most econ left shit that have been tried just dont work uygha. It's not the CIAs fault that the USSR imploded.
Communism will come eventually if technological advencement and thevproductivity/work hour ratio continues expand.
>>2727019Are you trolling?
>>2727020All AES countries economically bit the curb against American not socialist economy. Therefore their models don't actually work long term. It is what it is.
For now only capitalism with a strong communist party in charge work well as compromise: hence china.
>>2726921>The objective of (social)ists then should be to help their comrades resocialize.Ok, it's like how I should help homeless people reintegrate into the system and find employment. These are nice acts of charity but these people aren't an asset until a ridiculous amount of investment that might not even pay off.
You fuckers need to stop making excuses for being mental handicaps.
>>2726879It's even worse in the imperial core. Political activism has been reduced to social media posts and morality. I mention materialism and name capitalism as the source of the problem and suddenly i'm not "nuanced" enough and preachy. These libs will try to get into marxism but will do so from a skewed "liberal women/minority must be heard!" perspective, try to read Luxemburg and fail in understanding anything further.
They'll keep trying to fight fascism with art and virtue signalling and attempt to silence marxists. Utterly detestable
The western left already won in 1991, that’s the problem
Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls
>>2727061This place must be experiencing a flood of /pol/fugees because the fact that this isn't the first post is honestly shameful. We have tards who are unironically shilling professor jiang over here and talking about the "leftist mind virus" rather than the actual cause which is deindustrialization and treatlerism. Its almost incredible how this entire thread is talking about idpol retardation like we regressed back to 2016.
>>2727075you can tell by how many are confused by the names lol
>will never
Bold claim
It doesn't succeed right now because of material conditions. Lack of organization is a symptom of unfavorable material conditions.
>>2727075>>2727078I wonder why are they here.
Is it because hiro made the captcha literally unsolvable if your browser has even a minimum form of umatrix/noscript? Maybe rapeape and his mossad handlers banned the iran war thread on /pol/?
>>2727075>This place must be experiencing a flood of /pol/fugees because the fact that this isn't the first post is honestly shameful.Oh lord, god forbid someone have an original thought vs. towing the
party irrelevant imageboard line.
>>2727075>than the actual cause which is deindustrialization and treatlerism.<muh treatlerismJesus Christ.
>>2727061>Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsThat's very convenient that things are going are way all of their own accord and we don't have to do anything. Thank you, I feel very relieved.
>>2727075Idk man, there might be some newfags, but I genuinely hate many of the regular posters here and think they are deeply chauvinistic retards. Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms troglodytes like this fuck
>>2727085 >>2727075Yeah idk why it took so many posts for the most obvious reply to show up. I'm usually not on the team of "leftypol users don't read theory" but this thread in particular is very unfortunate
You guys really are insufferable. No arguments. Just try to pull ypur same fake consensus building tactics:
>whoahh doesn't everyone here agree with X?
>whoah must be a lot of newfags unless they are saying X exactly how I do.
<THIS! So true sister! We must be getting raided!
>>2727100Already made them and you haven't rebutted anything.
>>2727029Wrong. China is Communist.
>>2727101I'm not gonna backread the thread for your retardation, make an argument or shut the fuck up moron
>>2727106Lol. I already accurately described you and your faggot tactics:
>>2727099 >>2727108Again, not an argument. You are retarded
>>2727114The arguments have already been made. You say you refuse to read them why would I rewrite them on the hope you won't refuse again?
>>2727116Constructing a strawman about what you think your interlocutors are saying is not an argument. Make an actual argument on why you think I'm wrong or why you think that the western left hasn't succeeded or be perceived as a moron and shut the hell up
>>2727120>>2727120>Constructing a strawman about what you think your interlocutors are saying is not an argument. That's all you chief
>>2727094>Idk man, there might be some newfags, but I genuinely hate many of the regular posters here and think they are deeply chauvinistic retards. Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms troglodytes like this fuck >>2727085>>2727120
>Make an actual argument on why you think I'm wrong or why you think that the western left hasn't succeeded or be perceived as a moron and shut the hell upYou haven't made a single argument it would possible to say you are wrong about.
>>2727120Oh if you are:
>>2727061I already rebutted you. You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.
>>2727061>Let me tell you why doing things is impossible and it's not our fault because there's nothing we can possible do about it!Basically Blackpill
BUT:
>Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsVery lucky indeed. Aren't we lucky people. Fortune is shining on us. Luck be a lady tonight.
>>2726879>>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Besides going into media, PR or any of that, this describes my situation. I left organizing a few years back because of the problems listed in your post as well as overall frustration with things going nowhere for years.
Also the fact that DSA is the largest socialist org in the US is pretty fucking grim IMO. You have all these supposed socialists and communists joining and trying to change it into an actual worker's org, which goes against the very nature of DSA. When presented with the reality they double down and blindly defend the org. The worst example of this is when Black Red Guard, leader of the Liberation Caucus, had a debate with BadEmpanada about DSA (see vidrel).
>>2727124>>2727126You feel called out by my chauvinist retard troglodyte comment? That's not a strawman dumdum, its an insult
>You haven't made a single argument it would possible to say you are wrong about.Damn right
>I already rebutted you. You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.Categorizing my argument with buzzwords is also not an argument, but nice try. Maybe next time you'll actually formulate something coherent? Somehow I doubt it
>>2727131>Shit nobody said Yawn, how about you actually engage with what I actually said yeah?
>>2727061>LuckilyIf the case you were making is true socialism would be completely impossible altogether because imperialism doesn't die as long as capitalism doesn't die, it's literally capitalist competition as applied to international relations
>>2727142>You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.Do I really have to tell you why fatalism and luck aren't a strategy?
>>2726879 I think the responses to OP are showing everything wrong with "the left."
>>2726902>Nothing but pure mental masturbators and pseudo-intellectual egomaniacs.It's all just cheerleading doing nothing because things will "luckily" all go our way soon, just you wait!
>>2727143Imperialism is not a static, unchanging thing. The structure of it can change and be changed, which opens up opportunities for those of us that want to destroy it. Thanks for actually formulating an argument btw!
>>2727145Again, categorization is not an argument. Try to actually use your words to argue why you think I'm wrong about what I said. Also damn dude, you are really really triggered by the word luckily lmfao, calm down
so far I've managed to avoid all of this by getting involved in local trade unions instead of driving 45 minutes away to the nearest yDSA meeting. burger trade unions have there own issues ofc but I'd rather deal with those than what OP is describing. Even the reformist AFL-CIA associated ones have some marxist presence in the rank and file and by there very nature can't exist meaningfully if there constantly shitflinging of sectarian brainrot and culture war bs. One way I could describe is the yDSA has there meeting weekly in the afternoon when most people are at work while the union has a biweekly zoom meeting well after work.
>>2727154>Again, categorization is not an argument.This you:
>>2727094>Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms I have no clue even what you think is "leftcom" about what I said.
> Try to actually use your words to argue why you think I'm wrong about what I said.I already did. Like over and over again.
>Also damn dude, you are really really triggered by the word luckily lmfao, calm downI'm exasperated with you kind. You're exactly who this thread is about. You suck so much dude.
Your strategy is to do nothing. This thread is about how do we develop a better strategy and you only come here to say:
>Don't strategize! It's pointless! Events are purely decided by fate, but fate will go our way!You're saying absolutely nothing. You serve no purpose other than to make yourself feel better and to try and disuade anyone else from trying to do anything.
>>2727159>I have no clue even what you think is "leftcom" about what I saidYour armchair flag duhdoi
>I already did. Like over and over again.No, you did not. Try again, this time actually formulate an argument and don't build a strawman or try to categorize mine with some buzzword. If you need an example look at the post I complimented for formulating an argument
>I'm exasperated with you kind. You're exactly who this thread is about. You suck so much dude.Like I give a fuck faggot. You think I don't hate your dumbass either? I already said as much in my first response to you. Yet I still engage with what you actually say you dumb cunt
>Your strategy is to do nothing. No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy
>This thread is about how do we develop a better strategy No, this thread is about why the western left will never succeed, it says as much in the title. I ignored that and just made my answer to a different question, namely why the western left hasn't succeeded so far
>Don't strategize! It's pointless! Events are purely decided by fate, but fate will go our way!Odd, you're quoting someone, but not me, since I never said that shit. How strange, are you sure you're not having a stroke?
>You're saying absolutely nothing. You serve no purpose other than to make yourself feel better and to try and disuade anyone else from trying to do anything.Yawn, your delusions are very boring my guy
>>2726879extremely jewish post from a person whose entire conception of 'the left' is based on their social media feed
You have two choices to vote for in american politics.
Modern left who are not workers, they are bourgeoise white kids, students, intellectuals, and celebrities, who worship black and brown lumpenproles who would rather loot and burn things than have an actual revolution.
They have no interest in helping the working class, or having anything to do with economics. In fact most of them hate the working class for being culturally right wing, and they especially hate you if you are white or a male, or both.
The working class, what is left of them, have been stomped into dust by outsourcing, immigration, union busting, and neoliberalism.
Multicultural capitalist societies now lead to an endless identity politics obsessed tribalism and culture war, a war of all against all for the scraps of the rich.
The right has nothing to offer to you if you arent rich or a zionist. A struggling person is told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and send more money to Israel and the military industrial complex.
I am completely alienated from politics, yet, i seek a way out.
but there doesnt seem to be a way out
>>2727178>Your armchair flag duhdoi I just used that in response to the post I was replying to because they were advocating doing nothing, now you're saying that wasn't you that I was replying to.
>No, you did not. Try again, this time actually formulate an argument and don't build a strawman or try to categorize mine with some buzzword. If you need an example look at the post I complimented for formulating an argument Tell me what is the argument you put forth and I'll put forth a counter-argument. You haven't made any counter-arguments to the arguments already put forth.
>No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy That's the subject of the thread and you haven't once expressed that even let alone say what your strategy is or how it contradicts the OP or any of the arguments put forth thus far.
>No, this thread is about why the western left will never succeed, it says as much in the title. I ignored that and just made my answer to a different question, namely why the western left hasn't succeeded so far That's not what the OP is about. This exactly the problem. You just got immediately triggered and just went on your spergout campaign.
>Odd, you're quoting someone, but not me, since I never said that shit. How strange, are you sure you're not having a stroke?Ok, so which is your answer then?
>>2726879>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. Want to reiterate this because it seems many of the autists in this thread have only read the title of the OP and none of the rest of it. OP made a lot of good points but I think this is the most to the point and is perfectly illustrated by this thread.
>>2727178Stop replying to the retard just let him go on his autistic temper tantrum, its obvious he doesn't have a real arguement and is asshurt.
>>2727192What is your argument? None of you idiots have made an argument. You've all already admitted you're only responding to OP's maybe careless title of the thread and are just sperging about that.
>>2727191>Want to reiterate this because it seems many of the autists in this thread have only read the title of the OP and none of the rest of it. OP made a lot of good points but I think this is the most to the point and is perfectly illustrated by this thread.In fact I don't think it goes far enough to illustrate the kind of problem of the people in this thread. If these people were at least selling newspapers or something:
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. This would describe them. Most of these people aren't even that. They're just autistic nerds who think that if they read enough Lenin, then do nothing, their moment will come and they'll be ebic Bolsheviks leading the revolution. It's so tiresome.
>>2727186Do what we in the third-world did, simp for China and try to have good relations with them.
>>2727191>I just used that in response to the post I was replying to because they were advocating doing nothing, now you're saying that wasn't you that I was replying to.Well usually flags represent your own politics, not those of the people you're replying to lmfao
>Tell me what is the argument you put forth and I'll put forth a counter-argument. You haven't made any counter-arguments to the arguments already put forth.<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls <3
>That's the subject of the thread and you haven't once expressed that even let alone say what your strategy is or how it contradicts the OP or any of the arguments put forth thus far.No the subject of the thread is: "Why do you think the Western left will never succeed?" It's at the top of the page bro
>That's not what the OP is about. This exactly the problem. You just got immediately triggered and just went on your spergout campaign.Idk what to tell you retard. It's right there in the title, which is what I was responding to. The projection is crazy tho lol
>Ok, so which is your answer then?<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsFeel free to make an argument against this any time you want <3
>>2727192I know, this isn't my first rodeo. I don't mind
>>2727075I wonder if its a generational thing cuz I'm used to millenial anons shilling the whole "SJWs ruined occupy" line and there accounts of idpol being used by wreckers but I've never actually encountered this archetype of western leftist irl while trying to organize. Maybe another anon with more organizing experience can explain but it seems like a lot of OPs issues could be easily circumvented by getting involved with Unions instead of some random ass ML book club or the DSA.
>>2726879The western left won’t achieve anything till the imperialist hegemony starts to crack. With people like trump in office, that won’t take more then a few decades to start imo. Paper tigers and all that.
>>2727215is it millenial anons? I see this rhetoric more from zoomers
>why hasn't the western left defeated the global capitalist hegemony?
>could it be the unprecedented surveillance and military and police apparatus that have been putting down any remotely effective attempts at leftist organizing?
>could it be the lack of foreign assistance that almost every successful revolution in history has relied on?
>could it be any material conditions whatsoever, such as our country's history as a settler colonial slave state?
<nah, its just because YOU, yes YOU, THE LEFTIST READING THIS RIGHT NOW, are TOO CRINGE and EDGY
<also stop saying good things about our - i mean america's! - enemies!
>>2727245its not that I dont see my fellow zoomers complain abt idpol its moreso that OP specified they've been around since the 2000s. Also zoomer "anti-idpol" is basically a coin flip between normal well adjusted people tired of preachy libs or haztards that only see the world in terms of different aesthetics and online subcultures and have an imaginary cringe blue hair women in their head they're afraid of resembling. Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs. This leads me to believe my own perception might colored by a sample bias of sorts where I came into the left in the aftermath of a bunch of orgs trying to do 70s era new left shit and failing and not during the peak of them doing. Like alot of this comes across as people still debating this old Marcuse qoute:
>“Underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and outsiders, the exploited and persecuted of other races and other colors, the unemployed and the unemployable“ >>2726879Lenin has already gave an answer to this
>a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people because [great replacement theory]where did you hear this? fox news?
the great replacment shit is bs created by the bourgeoisis to divide the public. why are you taking that seriously you fucking brainlet, you are being counter producive at best and a fucking glowie at worst.
>>2727019Low tier bait. Everyone here knows the difference between socialism and higher phase communism and the abortive shit that the eastern block got up to. and yeah, it is in part the fault of the CIA, but they were mostly an acceleratent more then anything else.
>>2727075leftypol is reactionary, 4chan is doomerlefties, what is happpening to the world?
>>2727158>so far I've managed to avoid all of this by getting involved in local trade unions instead of driving 45 minutes away to the nearest yDSA meeting. burger trade unions have there own issues ofc but I'd rather deal with those than what OP is describing.In general the people on the left I've met and admired the most were heavily involved in labor union work as their thing.
>>2727266>Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs.Something like that almost happened to me once and I avoided it by just letting them rant until they got it off their chest. Kind of a hair-trigger problem person (was also wearing hammer and sickle fashion) who nearly blew up the meeting earlier on another guy who didn't know how to handle it, then pounced on me later. The other guy got defensive which was a bad idea. Later on someone else who thought I handled it well asked me if I had ever done adult education (no) but it turns out it's like the opposite of K-12 methods because it's all about being calm because adults get insecure and sensitive about status.
>>2727248>settlersAmerican mental illness
>>2727261What's wrong with Danny Trejo?
It’s because western workers are smug, bourgeois proletarians
>>2726879>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.There will be the ANSWER types out there and people with a "fuck this" attitude when a new war happens but a lot of people get demoralized because it does jack shit. At least in theory, a union can have tangible goals and achieve them, and that has a motivating effect. Also people have to make rent. The accelerationists are wrong, when people are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head, their risk tolerance is lower and they don't have time, energy or the inclination to go out and protest something that doesn't seem like it directly affects them.
This is like blaming the gardener for only being able to work with sand, corn can’t grown sand
>>2727389He was in Fallout New Vegas
>>2727199I already replied to you idiot. God your fucking retarded. Let's go through your retardation step by step again,
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution.Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.
<Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsThis has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.
These conditions will magically change on their own.
Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.
>No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategy. Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?
>Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all. But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothing. You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.
>>2727441Your ideology is exactly the same as all the officers during WWI who ordered men to run into machine guns and mine fields because “le human will triumphs”
>>2726879the average american would become a nazi before thinking about becoming a communist
>>2727444So in this metaphor, the machine guns and mine fields are the material conditions. I'm asking you to run into them, and that's just suicide.
So your solution is to: "wait for the material conditions to become favorable" on their own? Is that how a successful army would deal with the mind fields and the machine guns?
>>2727441>I already replied to you idiotBut not with an argument
>Let's go through your retardation step by step againIf only you had said "Lets counter your argument step by step", instead we get:
>Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.Again, categorizing my argument with a buzzword and tacking on some strawman of shit I never said is not an argument
>This has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.No it hasn't, certainly not by you lol, also not an argument
>These conditions will magically change on their own.There's nothing magical about changing conditions lmfao, what a brainlet
>Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OP
>So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategyUhh Yeah, cuz that was when you started yapping about strategy
>Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. Once again, no argument
>So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?Yeah, you do what you can in the circumstances you are in, as conditions change the breath of possibility for action widens and more is afforded to us.
>Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all.That's you projecting my retarded friend, if what I said was truly so unintelligent it should be easy as pie to make up an actual argument against it. You have yet to do so. Instead you are just repeating the same empty phrases and strawmen add infinitum.
"Heh, here's why you said this thing" No, just engage with what is being said. Are superprofits not used to fund the social benefits of westerners? Doesn't that make them less likely to revolt? Why not? MAKE AN ARGUMENT YOU RETARDED APE
>But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothingI would if you could actually provide an argument. Unfortunately you have yet to do so
>You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.Try and try again
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls >>2727532>So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OPThere was more to the OP beyond the thread title. The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong? But I guess your answer would still be:
>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.Then after that OP listed issues he has seen with the left and the implied question is:
>What can the left do differently to achieve success?And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."
It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.
>Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. The western left is doomed to fail mostly because they lack, almost to a man, the personal courage required to do what is necessary of them. If you're not willing to sacrifice your life for this cause, and 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the western left is not and never will be, then you will make absolutely no progress.
>>2726879their hatred towards homogeneous societies/seething hatred towards white people (aka, the main demographic of the west)
>>2727640a lot of people would support socialist, if not communist policies if they were also promised a homogeneous society, denmark is kind of like this and theyre doing pretty well (although the immigration issue is starting to appear there as well)
>>2727644if i were to live in britain, id vote for the green party if we were promised restore britain's policy on immigration (every other policy except maybe nuclear energy would remain the same), and also if the party didnt have foreigners (including zack polansky) in it, thats kind of what i mean
So keeping with these material conditions metaphors, "now is the winter of our discontent" now is not the time to plant seeds. There's nothing we can do but wait for spring, how about establishing an ETA and a plan for the planting we're going to do when spring comes?
Inb4:
>No man knows the day or hour of his coming.
Wow what a helpful theory.
By enlarge they cheerlead for our third world bourgeoisie, they'll always be our class enemies.
>>2727627>There was more to the OP beyond the thread titleHmmm yeah just some personalization and psychological profiling, I didn't care much for it. I decided to go for a more grounded answer to OP's question
>The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong?Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffective
>But I guess your answer would still be:>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.
>And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."Why would you think that?
>It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.Then that should have been made explicit. As it stands OP asked a question, then listed a bunch of dumb subjective answers about innate qualities and personality traits.
>>2727664>Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffectiveSo then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.
>If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.
Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstances. What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?
>>2727678>So then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.Not necessarily, you might do all the right things and still fail. The world isn't a videogame where you input the correct sequence and it will grant you your desired result
>But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.Yes, but we are still of the world, which our consciousness is a part of and arises out of.
>Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstancesNot really, but sure I'll grant it for the sake of argument
>What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?I mean like I said the practical application of methods totally depends on your circumstances. People in different regions or different countries within the west have do deal with these circumstances in different ways, if you live in a college town you have to go about it in a different way than if you live in some industrial harbor city or in the countryside, etc. If you truly must ask me to make some sort of subjective generalization I would say people on the left are mostly moralistic liberal adjacent idealists. The more effective thing would be to purge this from our minds entirely, reject all forms of non materialist thinking, but that brings about its own issues in terms of collaboration, messaging, etc. More discipline, more hardline, more toughness, less forgiveness, less moralism, less chauvinism seems like a decent path forward to me.
Imo these types of attitudes and necessities change as the world changes. Though being subjective, it is not really able to be quantified and I can only call it from my own subjective viewpoint, but I do think this kind of radicalization is happening on quite a large scale already, though still a while off from where it needs to be
>>2727389I was just using him as a general example, it's going to be a Hispanic gangster or an Army guy
>>2727655Sometimes you can’t do anything, that’s life
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