These are issues as to why I think the Western Left will never do anything or succeed at anything. It's not exhaustive, but I do ask why other people here critical of the Western Left, think the Western Left has failed and will continue to fail to enact any sort of change whatsoever?
>Most Leftists are pretty ideologically antisocial, arrogant, elitist, do not like normies (especially working class people) and look down on them.
>Vast majority of what the Left does is ingroup virtue signalling. Every Protest, every newspaper sold, every shouting slogan, every cancellation, all anti-imperialism, isn't really done for a real purpose but virtue signalling and just group activities
>Leftists are holier than thou in the most moronic ways possible, they refuse to use modern PR, modern marketing, modern public speaking skills, Frame Communist and Socialist ideals in ways that are actually appealing and don't sound like a 1917 Larp.
>Because modern Leftism is a alternative scene, rather than a political movement, being a normal person who is charismatic, or works out, or good looking, is actually frowned upon.
>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.
>Anti-Imperialism never works because the left refuses to actually do anything to put themselves into positions where they have power to do anything actually anti-imperialist. It's mostly just seething and pointing at elites saying "LOOK YOU'RE BAD HYPOCRITS" while they respond "who cares?".
>Too many "Anti-Imperialists" just devolve into vulgar edgy campism. Many also seriously hope the third will will just rise up and save them.
>Shit like mass immigration is only supported because a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people and are wildly oikophobic and want to see "white people" suffer out of teenage level spite against boring suburban upbringings. Another is purely just a naieve white saviour complex or orientalism combined with christcuck morality that more "oppressed" groups are more moral.
>Most modern Leftists positions are really driven by peer ingroup "empathy" pressure than Materialism.
>Shitlib TikTok/Tumbler narratives take precedence over Marxism every time. I've seen countless dedicated Marxists purged from orgs over the years for not adhering to new incoherent Tumblr woketard line.
>Young Socialists are genuinely retarded yet make up most of the activist base. If a Leftist is frankly, under 30, they most likely are going to be arrogant, refuse to listen to more experienced members as fuck and wrong about everything. Younger members almost always push towards mindless militancy that just turns off regular people.
>Socialists over 55 have mostly just given up on any real serious change and usually just treat Socialist orgs as their social book club.
>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Same issue that the military has where intelligent people leave to greener pastures after 4-8 years leaving incompetents behind to run everything.
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context.
Been part of the organised left since the early 2000s to Covid. These are a tip of the iceberg of the issues I repetedly saw with near every group, and a vast majority of the left I interacted with.
>>2726879global 24/7 palantir surveillance
>>2726879I think the whole hope of "the left" is that a whole lot of new people that aren't currently on "the left" become "the left." For one because obviously, for political change, you need a mass of people, and two because so many of the people here currently suck.
Nothing but pure mental masturbators and pseudo-intellectual egomaniacs.
>>2726902Thinkimg more how to describe it, I think I got a slick explanation:
>We don't need anti-social socialistsI don't care how much theory or obscure communist history you read, if you are bad at socializing with people, how are you going to call yourself a socialist? We don't need you.
>>2726913Name one thing you succeeded in.
It pain me to admit it because i am someone who unironically Heil Breznhev and all that. But the USSR as well as vatious third-world communism like Chavismo are the actual failures who failed to deliver, not without trying or honor, but they still failed.
>>2726916I baited chuds on xitter when Charlie Kirk died of fentanyl overdose. What have you done spartacus?
>>2726879I actually agree with these to some degree. But I wouldn't say that the western left would never succeed.
I'd also add that lobbyists and governments spending years trying to make Communism look evil in the eyes of the public also why the western left is having problems radicalizing people. In the eyes of westerners (especially Americans) leftists just seem like they are just whiny children wanting to take away people's pickup trucks and peanut m&m's.
>>2726909>We don't need you.And yet here they are. The objective of (social)ists then should be to help their comrades resocialize. If we were to eject every anti-social socialist right off the bat then you'd be down a significant force.
>>2726923What characteristics make someone "radicalized?" Is it akin to the zeal of recent converts before they mellow out with experience?
>>2726926I don't know, you tell me, these terms are bandied about like dogma, but they always seem ill-defined. What is "agitating?" I think people are already well agitated. Maybe more than most leftists.
It will succeed, but mostly just through assisting the eastern left. It can't organize very well on it's own.
>title question
>first line of post is "here is my answer to the title question"
reported for unmarked AI bosting outside of a [code] tag.
>>2726942>eastern leftSuch as?
The /leftypol/-style Ostalgic hardcore left who is stuck in the past and spend more time hating other comrades than actually building anything at all will never succeed.
The normal touching grass left who is woke, gay and flawed but not afraid to commit mistake in order to grow much further has a good chance to win.
>>2726978Trvth. Also the mainstream woke left has stopped getting itself caught in brown ethnonarcissism and feminizionism bullshit while the "based alt left" only glaze China online while still obsessing about factionalist fueds from a trillion years ago.
Woke left has grown while the incestuous based left has stagnated.
>>2726978They’ve already won, this is the world in which that “left” already won
>>2726913>We actually succeeded on pretty much everything besides the left-econ aspect trvke
and that's a bad thing
>>2726899>>Old heads have mostly given up, or at least the ones left haveAt least in my country, I give them some leeway because they’ve dealt with real political oppression, Not a lecture or two being censored, but things like being locked up in rat filled prisons or having their relatives beaten or threatened. I understand why they’re more wary and cautious and I don’t hold it against them.
>>2727004I understand the frustation but most econ left shit that have been tried just dont work uygha. It's not the CIAs fault that the USSR imploded.
Communism will come eventually if technological advencement and thevproductivity/work hour ratio continues expand.
>>2727019Are you trolling?
>>2727020All AES countries economically bit the curb against American not socialist economy. Therefore their models don't actually work long term. It is what it is.
For now only capitalism with a strong communist party in charge work well as compromise: hence china.
>>2726921>The objective of (social)ists then should be to help their comrades resocialize.Ok, it's like how I should help homeless people reintegrate into the system and find employment. These are nice acts of charity but these people aren't an asset until a ridiculous amount of investment that might not even pay off.
You fuckers need to stop making excuses for being mental handicaps.
>>2726879It's even worse in the imperial core. Political activism has been reduced to social media posts and morality. I mention materialism and name capitalism as the source of the problem and suddenly i'm not "nuanced" enough and preachy. These libs will try to get into marxism but will do so from a skewed "liberal women/minority must be heard!" perspective, try to read Luxemburg and fail in understanding anything further.
They'll keep trying to fight fascism with art and virtue signalling and attempt to silence marxists. Utterly detestable
The western left already won in 1991, that’s the problem
Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls
>>2727061This place must be experiencing a flood of /pol/fugees because the fact that this isn't the first post is honestly shameful. We have tards who are unironically shilling professor jiang over here and talking about the "leftist mind virus" rather than the actual cause which is deindustrialization and treatlerism. Its almost incredible how this entire thread is talking about idpol retardation like we regressed back to 2016.
>>2727075you can tell by how many are confused by the names lol
>will never
Bold claim
It doesn't succeed right now because of material conditions. Lack of organization is a symptom of unfavorable material conditions.
>>2727075>>2727078I wonder why are they here.
Is it because hiro made the captcha literally unsolvable if your browser has even a minimum form of umatrix/noscript? Maybe rapeape and his mossad handlers banned the iran war thread on /pol/?
>>2727075>This place must be experiencing a flood of /pol/fugees because the fact that this isn't the first post is honestly shameful.Oh lord, god forbid someone have an original thought vs. towing the
party irrelevant imageboard line.
>>2727075>than the actual cause which is deindustrialization and treatlerism.<muh treatlerismJesus Christ.
>>2727061>Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsThat's very convenient that things are going are way all of their own accord and we don't have to do anything. Thank you, I feel very relieved.
>>2727075Idk man, there might be some newfags, but I genuinely hate many of the regular posters here and think they are deeply chauvinistic retards. Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms troglodytes like this fuck
>>2727085 >>2727075Yeah idk why it took so many posts for the most obvious reply to show up. I'm usually not on the team of "leftypol users don't read theory" but this thread in particular is very unfortunate
You guys really are insufferable. No arguments. Just try to pull ypur same fake consensus building tactics:
>whoahh doesn't everyone here agree with X?
>whoah must be a lot of newfags unless they are saying X exactly how I do.
<THIS! So true sister! We must be getting raided!
>>2727100Already made them and you haven't rebutted anything.
>>2727029Wrong. China is Communist.
>>2727101I'm not gonna backread the thread for your retardation, make an argument or shut the fuck up moron
>>2727106Lol. I already accurately described you and your faggot tactics:
>>2727099 >>2727108Again, not an argument. You are retarded
>>2727114The arguments have already been made. You say you refuse to read them why would I rewrite them on the hope you won't refuse again?
>>2727116Constructing a strawman about what you think your interlocutors are saying is not an argument. Make an actual argument on why you think I'm wrong or why you think that the western left hasn't succeeded or be perceived as a moron and shut the hell up
>>2727120>>2727120>Constructing a strawman about what you think your interlocutors are saying is not an argument. That's all you chief
>>2727094>Idk man, there might be some newfags, but I genuinely hate many of the regular posters here and think they are deeply chauvinistic retards. Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms troglodytes like this fuck >>2727085>>2727120
>Make an actual argument on why you think I'm wrong or why you think that the western left hasn't succeeded or be perceived as a moron and shut the hell upYou haven't made a single argument it would possible to say you are wrong about.
>>2727120Oh if you are:
>>2727061I already rebutted you. You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.
>>2727061>Let me tell you why doing things is impossible and it's not our fault because there's nothing we can possible do about it!Basically Blackpill
BUT:
>Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsVery lucky indeed. Aren't we lucky people. Fortune is shining on us. Luck be a lady tonight.
>>2726879>>Anyone with a brain, good skills, PR skills etc will generally realize these people are a lost cause leave any Socialist org and go into actual staffing, PR, media careers etc around their late 20s. Besides going into media, PR or any of that, this describes my situation. I left organizing a few years back because of the problems listed in your post as well as overall frustration with things going nowhere for years.
Also the fact that DSA is the largest socialist org in the US is pretty fucking grim IMO. You have all these supposed socialists and communists joining and trying to change it into an actual worker's org, which goes against the very nature of DSA. When presented with the reality they double down and blindly defend the org. The worst example of this is when Black Red Guard, leader of the Liberation Caucus, had a debate with BadEmpanada about DSA (see vidrel).
>>2727124>>2727126You feel called out by my chauvinist retard troglodyte comment? That's not a strawman dumdum, its an insult
>You haven't made a single argument it would possible to say you are wrong about.Damn right
>I already rebutted you. You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.Categorizing my argument with buzzwords is also not an argument, but nice try. Maybe next time you'll actually formulate something coherent? Somehow I doubt it
>>2727131>Shit nobody said Yawn, how about you actually engage with what I actually said yeah?
>>2727061>LuckilyIf the case you were making is true socialism would be completely impossible altogether because imperialism doesn't die as long as capitalism doesn't die, it's literally capitalist competition as applied to international relations
>>2727142>You only made a excuses and a fatalistic argument.Do I really have to tell you why fatalism and luck aren't a strategy?
>>2726879 I think the responses to OP are showing everything wrong with "the left."
>>2726902>Nothing but pure mental masturbators and pseudo-intellectual egomaniacs.It's all just cheerleading doing nothing because things will "luckily" all go our way soon, just you wait!
>>2727143Imperialism is not a static, unchanging thing. The structure of it can change and be changed, which opens up opportunities for those of us that want to destroy it. Thanks for actually formulating an argument btw!
>>2727145Again, categorization is not an argument. Try to actually use your words to argue why you think I'm wrong about what I said. Also damn dude, you are really really triggered by the word luckily lmfao, calm down
so far I've managed to avoid all of this by getting involved in local trade unions instead of driving 45 minutes away to the nearest yDSA meeting. burger trade unions have there own issues ofc but I'd rather deal with those than what OP is describing. Even the reformist AFL-CIA associated ones have some marxist presence in the rank and file and by there very nature can't exist meaningfully if there constantly shitflinging of sectarian brainrot and culture war bs. One way I could describe is the yDSA has there meeting weekly in the afternoon when most people are at work while the union has a biweekly zoom meeting well after work.
>>2727154>Again, categorization is not an argument.This you:
>>2727094>Worst amongst them are smug leftcoms I have no clue even what you think is "leftcom" about what I said.
> Try to actually use your words to argue why you think I'm wrong about what I said.I already did. Like over and over again.
>Also damn dude, you are really really triggered by the word luckily lmfao, calm downI'm exasperated with you kind. You're exactly who this thread is about. You suck so much dude.
Your strategy is to do nothing. This thread is about how do we develop a better strategy and you only come here to say:
>Don't strategize! It's pointless! Events are purely decided by fate, but fate will go our way!You're saying absolutely nothing. You serve no purpose other than to make yourself feel better and to try and disuade anyone else from trying to do anything.
>>2727159>I have no clue even what you think is "leftcom" about what I saidYour armchair flag duhdoi
>I already did. Like over and over again.No, you did not. Try again, this time actually formulate an argument and don't build a strawman or try to categorize mine with some buzzword. If you need an example look at the post I complimented for formulating an argument
>I'm exasperated with you kind. You're exactly who this thread is about. You suck so much dude.Like I give a fuck faggot. You think I don't hate your dumbass either? I already said as much in my first response to you. Yet I still engage with what you actually say you dumb cunt
>Your strategy is to do nothing. No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy
>This thread is about how do we develop a better strategy No, this thread is about why the western left will never succeed, it says as much in the title. I ignored that and just made my answer to a different question, namely why the western left hasn't succeeded so far
>Don't strategize! It's pointless! Events are purely decided by fate, but fate will go our way!Odd, you're quoting someone, but not me, since I never said that shit. How strange, are you sure you're not having a stroke?
>You're saying absolutely nothing. You serve no purpose other than to make yourself feel better and to try and disuade anyone else from trying to do anything.Yawn, your delusions are very boring my guy
>>2726879extremely jewish post from a person whose entire conception of 'the left' is based on their social media feed
You have two choices to vote for in american politics.
Modern left who are not workers, they are bourgeoise white kids, students, intellectuals, and celebrities, who worship black and brown lumpenproles who would rather loot and burn things than have an actual revolution.
They have no interest in helping the working class, or having anything to do with economics. In fact most of them hate the working class for being culturally right wing, and they especially hate you if you are white or a male, or both.
The working class, what is left of them, have been stomped into dust by outsourcing, immigration, union busting, and neoliberalism.
Multicultural capitalist societies now lead to an endless identity politics obsessed tribalism and culture war, a war of all against all for the scraps of the rich.
The right has nothing to offer to you if you arent rich or a zionist. A struggling person is told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and send more money to Israel and the military industrial complex.
I am completely alienated from politics, yet, i seek a way out.
but there doesnt seem to be a way out
>>2727178>Your armchair flag duhdoi I just used that in response to the post I was replying to because they were advocating doing nothing, now you're saying that wasn't you that I was replying to.
>No, you did not. Try again, this time actually formulate an argument and don't build a strawman or try to categorize mine with some buzzword. If you need an example look at the post I complimented for formulating an argument Tell me what is the argument you put forth and I'll put forth a counter-argument. You haven't made any counter-arguments to the arguments already put forth.
>No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy That's the subject of the thread and you haven't once expressed that even let alone say what your strategy is or how it contradicts the OP or any of the arguments put forth thus far.
>No, this thread is about why the western left will never succeed, it says as much in the title. I ignored that and just made my answer to a different question, namely why the western left hasn't succeeded so far That's not what the OP is about. This exactly the problem. You just got immediately triggered and just went on your spergout campaign.
>Odd, you're quoting someone, but not me, since I never said that shit. How strange, are you sure you're not having a stroke?Ok, so which is your answer then?
>>2726879>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. Want to reiterate this because it seems many of the autists in this thread have only read the title of the OP and none of the rest of it. OP made a lot of good points but I think this is the most to the point and is perfectly illustrated by this thread.
>>2727178Stop replying to the retard just let him go on his autistic temper tantrum, its obvious he doesn't have a real arguement and is asshurt.
>>2727192What is your argument? None of you idiots have made an argument. You've all already admitted you're only responding to OP's maybe careless title of the thread and are just sperging about that.
>>2727191>Want to reiterate this because it seems many of the autists in this thread have only read the title of the OP and none of the rest of it. OP made a lot of good points but I think this is the most to the point and is perfectly illustrated by this thread.In fact I don't think it goes far enough to illustrate the kind of problem of the people in this thread. If these people were at least selling newspapers or something:
>The left refuses to accept it's tactics and strategy don't work, relies on copium to explain otherwise. Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. This would describe them. Most of these people aren't even that. They're just autistic nerds who think that if they read enough Lenin, then do nothing, their moment will come and they'll be ebic Bolsheviks leading the revolution. It's so tiresome.
>>2727186Do what we in the third-world did, simp for China and try to have good relations with them.
>>2727191>I just used that in response to the post I was replying to because they were advocating doing nothing, now you're saying that wasn't you that I was replying to.Well usually flags represent your own politics, not those of the people you're replying to lmfao
>Tell me what is the argument you put forth and I'll put forth a counter-argument. You haven't made any counter-arguments to the arguments already put forth.<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls <3
>That's the subject of the thread and you haven't once expressed that even let alone say what your strategy is or how it contradicts the OP or any of the arguments put forth thus far.No the subject of the thread is: "Why do you think the Western left will never succeed?" It's at the top of the page bro
>That's not what the OP is about. This exactly the problem. You just got immediately triggered and just went on your spergout campaign.Idk what to tell you retard. It's right there in the title, which is what I was responding to. The projection is crazy tho lol
>Ok, so which is your answer then?<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsFeel free to make an argument against this any time you want <3
>>2727192I know, this isn't my first rodeo. I don't mind
>>2727075I wonder if its a generational thing cuz I'm used to millenial anons shilling the whole "SJWs ruined occupy" line and there accounts of idpol being used by wreckers but I've never actually encountered this archetype of western leftist irl while trying to organize. Maybe another anon with more organizing experience can explain but it seems like a lot of OPs issues could be easily circumvented by getting involved with Unions instead of some random ass ML book club or the DSA.
>>2726879The western left won’t achieve anything till the imperialist hegemony starts to crack. With people like trump in office, that won’t take more then a few decades to start imo. Paper tigers and all that.
>>2727215is it millenial anons? I see this rhetoric more from zoomers
>why hasn't the western left defeated the global capitalist hegemony?
>could it be the unprecedented surveillance and military and police apparatus that have been putting down any remotely effective attempts at leftist organizing?
>could it be the lack of foreign assistance that almost every successful revolution in history has relied on?
>could it be any material conditions whatsoever, such as our country's history as a settler colonial slave state?
<nah, its just because YOU, yes YOU, THE LEFTIST READING THIS RIGHT NOW, are TOO CRINGE and EDGY
<also stop saying good things about our - i mean america's! - enemies!
>>2727245its not that I dont see my fellow zoomers complain abt idpol its moreso that OP specified they've been around since the 2000s. Also zoomer "anti-idpol" is basically a coin flip between normal well adjusted people tired of preachy libs or haztards that only see the world in terms of different aesthetics and online subcultures and have an imaginary cringe blue hair women in their head they're afraid of resembling. Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs. This leads me to believe my own perception might colored by a sample bias of sorts where I came into the left in the aftermath of a bunch of orgs trying to do 70s era new left shit and failing and not during the peak of them doing. Like alot of this comes across as people still debating this old Marcuse qoute:
>“Underneath the conservative popular base is the substratum of the outcasts and outsiders, the exploited and persecuted of other races and other colors, the unemployed and the unemployable“ >>2726879Lenin has already gave an answer to this
>a lot of leftists are genuinely racist against white people because [great replacement theory]where did you hear this? fox news?
the great replacment shit is bs created by the bourgeoisis to divide the public. why are you taking that seriously you fucking brainlet, you are being counter producive at best and a fucking glowie at worst.
>>2727019Low tier bait. Everyone here knows the difference between socialism and higher phase communism and the abortive shit that the eastern block got up to. and yeah, it is in part the fault of the CIA, but they were mostly an acceleratent more then anything else.
>>2727075leftypol is reactionary, 4chan is doomerlefties, what is happpening to the world?
>>2727158>so far I've managed to avoid all of this by getting involved in local trade unions instead of driving 45 minutes away to the nearest yDSA meeting. burger trade unions have there own issues ofc but I'd rather deal with those than what OP is describing.In general the people on the left I've met and admired the most were heavily involved in labor union work as their thing.
>>2727266>Meanwhile the older millenial anons usually have some random ass anecdote of a meeting getting wrecked or someone getting kicked out of random bs.Something like that almost happened to me once and I avoided it by just letting them rant until they got it off their chest. Kind of a hair-trigger problem person (was also wearing hammer and sickle fashion) who nearly blew up the meeting earlier on another guy who didn't know how to handle it, then pounced on me later. The other guy got defensive which was a bad idea. Later on someone else who thought I handled it well asked me if I had ever done adult education (no) but it turns out it's like the opposite of K-12 methods because it's all about being calm because adults get insecure and sensitive about status.
>>2727248>settlersAmerican mental illness
>>2727261What's wrong with Danny Trejo?
It’s because western workers are smug, bourgeois proletarians
>>2726879>Anti-Imperialism doesn't mean anything or have any goal yet is the raison detre of the modern left.There will be the ANSWER types out there and people with a "fuck this" attitude when a new war happens but a lot of people get demoralized because it does jack shit. At least in theory, a union can have tangible goals and achieve them, and that has a motivating effect. Also people have to make rent. The accelerationists are wrong, when people are too busy just trying to keep a roof over their head, their risk tolerance is lower and they don't have time, energy or the inclination to go out and protest something that doesn't seem like it directly affects them.
This is like blaming the gardener for only being able to work with sand, corn can’t grown sand
>>2727389He was in Fallout New Vegas
>>2727199I already replied to you idiot. God your fucking retarded. Let's go through your retardation step by step again,
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution.Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.
<Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit fallsThis has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.
These conditions will magically change on their own.
Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.
>No it's not, my strategy is to organize the working class into a practical vehicle for political change/the overthrow of the established order. Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategy. Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?
>Pretty basic stuff tbh, nothing fancy Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all. But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothing. You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.
>>2727441Your ideology is exactly the same as all the officers during WWI who ordered men to run into machine guns and mine fields because “le human will triumphs”
>>2726879the average american would become a nazi before thinking about becoming a communist
>>2727444So in this metaphor, the machine guns and mine fields are the material conditions. I'm asking you to run into them, and that's just suicide.
So your solution is to: "wait for the material conditions to become favorable" on their own? Is that how a successful army would deal with the mind fields and the machine guns?
>>2727441>I already replied to you idiotBut not with an argument
>Let's go through your retardation step by step againIf only you had said "Lets counter your argument step by step", instead we get:
>Excuses about why conditions beyond your control keep your from doing anything.Again, categorizing my argument with a buzzword and tacking on some strawman of shit I never said is not an argument
>This has already been deboonked like a dozen times in this thread.No it hasn't, certainly not by you lol, also not an argument
>These conditions will magically change on their own.There's nothing magical about changing conditions lmfao, what a brainlet
>Now mind you, at this point you have never mentioned anything even approaching a strategy or anything. Nothing, absolutely nothing.So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OP
>So you were just writing stupid reply after stupid reply asking me do refute your argument, and this is literally the first time you mention strategyUhh Yeah, cuz that was when you started yapping about strategy
>Once again, you're saying nothing absolutely nothing. Just the emptiest platitudes. Once again, no argument
>So do you organize now? Or are you waiting until "the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls" or what?Yeah, you do what you can in the circumstances you are in, as conditions change the breath of possibility for action widens and more is afforded to us.
>Exactly. YOU ARE SAYING NOTHING BUT RETARDED PLATITUDES. If you don't have anything intelligent to say don't say anything at all.That's you projecting my retarded friend, if what I said was truly so unintelligent it should be easy as pie to make up an actual argument against it. You have yet to do so. Instead you are just repeating the same empty phrases and strawmen add infinitum.
"Heh, here's why you said this thing" No, just engage with what is being said. Are superprofits not used to fund the social benefits of westerners? Doesn't that make them less likely to revolt? Why not? MAKE AN ARGUMENT YOU RETARDED APE
>But most of all stop asking for a counter-argument to nothingI would if you could actually provide an argument. Unfortunately you have yet to do so
>You have to say something first before a counter-argument can be made.Try and try again
<Imperialism retards the conditions that would lead to revolution in the imperial core. Super profits extracted from the periphery are so vast that a small portion of them can be set asside by the bourgeoisie to make life more bearable for western proles and ingratiate them into the machinery of global imperialism, thus stalling the necessity of revolution. Luckily this is slowly changing as the periphery economies develop and the rate of profit falls >>2727532>So? This thread is about why we think the western left has failed, as stated in the OPThere was more to the OP beyond the thread title. The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong? But I guess your answer would still be:
>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.Then after that OP listed issues he has seen with the left and the implied question is:
>What can the left do differently to achieve success?And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."
It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.
>Leftists are terrible at self-reflection and criticism when it comes to strategy. This is why so many leftist strategies have not changed or updated for a literal fucking century despite never working outside of a specific historical context. The western left is doomed to fail mostly because they lack, almost to a man, the personal courage required to do what is necessary of them. If you're not willing to sacrifice your life for this cause, and 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the western left is not and never will be, then you will make absolutely no progress.
>>2726879their hatred towards homogeneous societies/seething hatred towards white people (aka, the main demographic of the west)
>>2727640a lot of people would support socialist, if not communist policies if they were also promised a homogeneous society, denmark is kind of like this and theyre doing pretty well (although the immigration issue is starting to appear there as well)
>>2727644if i were to live in britain, id vote for the green party if we were promised restore britain's policy on immigration (every other policy except maybe nuclear energy would remain the same), and also if the party didnt have foreigners (including zack polansky) in it, thats kind of what i mean
So keeping with these material conditions metaphors, "now is the winter of our discontent" now is not the time to plant seeds. There's nothing we can do but wait for spring, how about establishing an ETA and a plan for the planting we're going to do when spring comes?
Inb4:
>No man knows the day or hour of his coming.
Wow what a helpful theory.
By enlarge they cheerlead for our third world bourgeoisie, they'll always be our class enemies.
>>2727627>There was more to the OP beyond the thread titleHmmm yeah just some personalization and psychological profiling, I didn't care much for it. I decided to go for a more grounded answer to OP's question
>The implied question is what has the Western Left done wrong?Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffective
>But I guess your answer would still be:>Absolutely nothing, all their failing are because of things beyond their control.If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.
>And I'm guessing your answer is once again "absolutely nothing."Why would you think that?
>It was very obvious the point of this thread is to do a self-crit of the left.Then that should have been made explicit. As it stands OP asked a question, then listed a bunch of dumb subjective answers about innate qualities and personality traits.
>>2727664>Potato tomato, the western left can only do things wrong or right according to their circumstances. Which are the primary reason for their actions being ineffectiveSo then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.
>If you want a subjective answer, I would say the western left has not been hardline enough, inundated with liberalism and wishywashy feel good politics. But to me such type of analyses is boring, the more interesting question is why they are like that, which brings us back to the circumstances.But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.
Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstances. What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?
>>2727678>So then the did the wrong thing according to their circumstances.Not necessarily, you might do all the right things and still fail. The world isn't a videogame where you input the correct sequence and it will grant you your desired result
>But we are conscious beings able to analyze the situation and deduce the correct way to deal with our circumstances.Yes, but we are still of the world, which our consciousness is a part of and arises out of.
>Forget OP, so we've established that the methods were ineffective for the circumstancesNot really, but sure I'll grant it for the sake of argument
>What would be more effective methods to deal with the circumstances at hand?I mean like I said the practical application of methods totally depends on your circumstances. People in different regions or different countries within the west have do deal with these circumstances in different ways, if you live in a college town you have to go about it in a different way than if you live in some industrial harbor city or in the countryside, etc. If you truly must ask me to make some sort of subjective generalization I would say people on the left are mostly moralistic liberal adjacent idealists. The more effective thing would be to purge this from our minds entirely, reject all forms of non materialist thinking, but that brings about its own issues in terms of collaboration, messaging, etc. More discipline, more hardline, more toughness, less forgiveness, less moralism, less chauvinism seems like a decent path forward to me.
Imo these types of attitudes and necessities change as the world changes. Though being subjective, it is not really able to be quantified and I can only call it from my own subjective viewpoint, but I do think this kind of radicalization is happening on quite a large scale already, though still a while off from where it needs to be
>>2727389I was just using him as a general example, it's going to be a Hispanic gangster or an Army guy
>>2727655Sometimes you can’t do anything, that’s life
The Left took the liberal line on immigration instead of teaching everyone that immigration is used to suppress wages and divide the working class.
Like fucks sakes guys, remember its not communists who brought in mass immigration to the West, it was the capitalist class. It is the liberal wing of capitalist media that runs the biggest defense of immigration. How did you retards fall for this bait?
>>2728880It was immigrants who made up the communist movement
>>2728888I am from Israel btw
The Left made these mistakes :
1) Supporting electorialism instead of rejecting it entirely in favor of revolution
2) Lost contact among the working class
3) Pro immigration demolished it's support among the working class
4) Cynical ID pol garbage wasting time, energy and destroying solidarity.
5) Support collaborationist trade unions instead of advocating revolutionary class unions.
6) Fell for social democracy meme.
7) Fell for third world "AES" meme
8) Fell for fake "anti imperialist" meme (a.k.a supporting nationalism in other countries under the guise of "anti imperialism")
9) Terrible neurotic personalities. Can't think of a single famous leftists Id like to have a beer with.
10) Falls for moralism all the time
11) Unable to vehemently reject religion to not hurt fee fees and opportunistically attract support from non communists.
12) Support lumpenproles over proles in crime issues
13) Unable to explain what communism is. Doesn't want to say it's abolition of wage labor, money and commodity production because they don't want to give up the AES meme.
14) Unable to put forward any program that isn't just reformism and social democracy.
>>2728880mental illness
>>2728909kill yourself then
>>2728910
>electoralismread lenin
>lost contact working classcorrect
>pro immigrationcorrect
>cynical ID pol garbagecorrect
>collaborationist trade ooooniaaans correct
>socdem memecorrect
>third world AES meme(i) the western left gives no shit about the third world, you are just a malding ultroid
>anti imp memeyou are a hitlerite faggot
>neurotic personalitiescorrect
>moralismwhatever the fuck that means, leftcuck
>unable to reject religion correct
>lumpenprolkescorrect
>commooonizm illeteracycorrect
>no programcorrect
you are mostly correct but your leftcuck faggotry spikes your autism on some crucial points and prevents you from becoming a full communist. i hope you see the light one day, retard >>2728392Nice AI slop, you spooked retard. That's not the typical american family.
I swear who do MTWists always fall for what America looks like in media and sitcoms and not realizing what America really is like?
>>2728157>Sometimes you can’t do anything, that’s life>>2727783>The world isn't a videogame where you input the correct sequence and it will grant you your desired resultYou guys are so in love with truisms and platitudes. I know you hate psychological profiling but you're just asking for it.
"You win some, you lose some"
Wow, thanks coach. What an insight. Do you think we should maybe study the reasons we lost the sportsball match? They call that a post-mortem sometimes. You know that's another of advantage of being in the future. Hindsight is 20/20 so mistakes that were harder to see when the left was making them are now easier to identify as mistakes because we have the benefit of also being to see exactly what the actions undertaken lead to.
>>2729258Or maybe you stop trying to plant wheat in the desert and move on
>>2729258If you don't have anything to say just shut the fuck up you dumb fucking retard. How's that for a platitude?
>>2729463That's what I'm telling you. You're literally saying nothing. The purpose is to analyze past mistakes and to learn from them and you guys come in just to say:
>There is nothing to learn except events are completely out of our control. There is no room for improvement because the success or failure of our actions are based purely on the laws of chance >>2729484Yes because that’s the truth, you don’t like hearing it because it bruises your ego because you have protagonist syndrome
>>2729484You are projecting you retarded fucking ape. Just repeating the same strawman over and over again, while contributing absolutely nothing to the thread yourself. Have a look in the mirror you absolute fucking moron.
Western proletariat are classcucked and cringe af.
>>2729503So what is the point of insisting on this point when it literally has no effect on anything? Is anyone stopping you from doing nothing? Even if they could, you say it doesn't matter?
>>2729508Seethe harder.
>>2730795It is a three pin socket.
>>2730801>More nothingKeep coping retard
>>2730793You do realize the same problems that plague Western communist parties apply just as much to the non-Western ones, if anything they’re even more irrelevant, their only real support comes from upper-middle-class diaspora intellectuals and the Western intelligentsia. we’re all dealing with the consequences of the New Left.
>>2730825>More nothingWow who would have thought? I wonder what exciting contribution you'll bring to the thread next
>>2730829Stop trying to derail glowie.
>>2730910How about you contribute something to the thread instead moron
The lefts main problem in the USA is they all have been convinced by feds and plants that any level of militancy, or attacking of liberalism within social movements as automatically "anarchist" and "adventurist". The reality is, the actions of the lower classes often adventure well beyond what people within leftist organizations are comfortable with openly supporting. This has shifted, but this has been an issue for years. I've seen members of the PSL, CPUSA, every organization in the alphabet, accuse people of being anarchists for throwing tear gas canisters back, or putting up barricades to avoid police charging in and beating everyone. They will claim they aren't liberal, but they shout provocateur at any sign of militant, whilst asking members to symbolically sacrifice themselves to police violence. In the USA, the leaders of the left automatically associate militancy with "anarchism". This has led to a norm where the left has been left without fangs outside of CERTAIN anarchist spaces. For some reason, even the Marxists pre-trump had very liberal approaches to guns compared to anarchists. For example, it wasn't uncommon to meet anarchist squatters armed to to the teeth in 2011, but when you introduce them to your average "leftist" their anger at the anarchists comes from the perceived militancy rather than theoretical disputes. I'm not talking out of my ass here, the few of us Marxists who liked guns well before 2016 experienced a constant leftist discomfort with the handling or even sight of guns, except… from, anarchists.
At a certain point, the left overall needs to realize everywhere else, the split between anarchism / marxism is not on militancy at all. In fact marxists invented the black bloc tactic. Marxists in America have been defanged for too long.
>>2730934>The lefts main problem in the USA is they all have been convinced by feds and plants that any level of militancyI’m not one to defend Western leftists, but what exactly do you expect them to do, get into shootouts with the police? Given their lack of firearms training and tactical experience, they would almost certainly lose and their organizations would immediately be raided, with members arrested and their assets seized.
>>2730934>>2731218Burgers could at least start shooting the billionaires in the Epstein files.
Then, the Sparts and other Leninist groups could write a polemic about it. It would be sold at protests for $5 or $10 an issue.
In all seriousness, the Epstein files have revealed the class character of the capitalists as being depraved degenerates and "the Left" isn't jumping on this opportunity as much as they should.
>>2731233It’s just more true crime slop which is inherently right wing
But the same is true for thirdie leftists, unless tou are talking about ultraleftCHADS, the average MLM is retarded
>>2731281Except true crime slop isn't usually about the president and the most prominent bankers in the country.
if everyone here is so unhappy with the way the western left is and has valid points about it why dont we make our own organization that has clearly defined views that prevent the missteps of the past from being retreaded
>>2731324No one’s gonna agree on what the missteps exactly were or why
>>2731218>but what exactly do you expect them to do, get into shootouts with the police? How exactly do you arrive at that from the situations I described? If your organizations don't have the ability to spread or support the building of the skills and tactics that keep people safe from police violence, and surveillance, then your organization has no business organizing, or maintaining a dominating presence at any events.
For starts, every organization needs to shun anyone that engages in anything like this,
>> I've seen members of the PSL, CPUSA, every organization in the alphabet, accuse people of being anarchists for throwing tear gas canisters back or putting up barricades to avoid police charging in
>>Given their lack of firearms training and tactical experienceThis is what happens when you have Marxists in 2011 who got squeamish at anarchists even suggesting hey, mask up, police surveillance is real, and even if you are not guilty they will use your presence to potentially incriminate you. How do we expect them to have developed tactics and lifestyles they denounce and disassociate from? This is my exact point. The left in USA have no tactical knowledge at all, because they refuse to learn and exclaim "anarchist" or "infiltrator!" anytime they come across those who are skilled and knowledgeable in such fields. My entire point is all Marxists in the USA need to agree with American anarchist tactics, because in reality, they aren't tactics that simply belong to anarchists. That's only the case in the USA, and this is only true because the American left have very liberal praxis. Anywhere else Marxists do not believe in compliance as the police to beat them over the heads. The reality is, many Marxists have this idea that these tactics are off-putting for "real working-class Americans" which is down-right false. These tactics steadily growing over the years is why leftist ideas have grown. It's not like some party suddenly pushed these ideas, no, it was organizing, and agitators closely associated with these types of tacticians that brought these things about. Does the CIA, when trying to undermine power in another nation, build a non-disruptive, passive movement? I think when it comes to tactics, and praxis, Marxist organizations can learn from anarchists; tactics related to repression, it's the biggest weakness of Marxists in the USA. There's a reason why most modern leftists who have been killed in USA, or had mass raid operations used against them (talking 90s onward) have been Anarchists; the state has no reason to heavily repress 90s onward era Marxists organizations or movements; why? they were able to neutralize them through infiltration & convincing them to self defang completely.
>>2731233Assassination is a right-wing field
>>2731813Does political violence 'belong' to one side? That's a strange way to frame it. Assassination and targeted violence aren't ideological possessions, they're tactical tools. And tools aren't limited to single ideals.
People have been killing political rivals since long before 'left' or 'right' existed as concepts. Julius Caesar was assassinated by a faction of the Roman senate. The word 'assassin' itself comes from a medieval Islamic sect. Monarchy, democracy, theocracy, anarchism, nationalism, socialism, communism, liberalism, the list goes on every struggle humans have ever devised has produced someone willing to kill for it. Acting like this is a modern invention of one political group requires ignoring basically all of recorded history.
But if you want to go even further back, look at chimpanzees.
Primatologists have documented coordinated, premeditated 'border raids' where groups of males deliberately venture to the edge of their territory, moving in silence, searching for isolated rivals. When they find one, they don't just fight, they execute on sight, as planned. They hold the victim down, target vulnerable areas, and continue until the individual is dead. And there's a clear strategic reason; groups that do this successfully expand their territory, gain access to more resources, influence other apes in the region and produce more offspring. It's evolutionary.
Lions do something similar. Mega-coalitions like the infamous Mapogo brothers in South Africa didn't just stumble into dominance. They systematically tracked, ambushed, and killed rival males across a massive territory. They targeted specific individuals, including former coalition members who posed a long-term threats on hunting grounds. That's not random aggression AT ALL, even biologists who study these animals believe that they engage in a sort of premeditated targeting of enemies; that's strategic elimination of competition.
So if territorial mammals with rudimentary communication systems can figure out coalitionary killing, why would we expect humans, with our complex ideologies, grievances, and power structure to somehow limit it to the dominant ideology. The capacity for targeted political violence isn't something the right or left invented. It's something we inherited as a species and then refined with language, belief systems, and weaponry. Now, if you say the right appears to engage in more "dominant violence" in the USA, then that would simply mean the USA's left are the weaker apes with less fight in them. There is way too much value on victimhood within the American left, which is something that definitely leads to drawing in a weaker coalition of apes. People who aren't weak generally can view themselves as conquerors even in situations stacked against them 1000:1. People who are weak and moralistic feel safer to be in the role of the "victim" than they do "the aggressor". The way the American left approaches meekness isn't that far off from the christian obsession with the same concept; being a victim, and turning the other cheek gives you "higher moral ground".
Wasn't the first global terror scare in the west, long before Islam, related to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deedBesides this era of 'propaganda of the deed' after the fall of the paris commune, in places like Greece both Marxist Leninists and Anarchists have had MODERN 2000s era active armed struggle groups. If you look at statistics in this era of greece, and places like italy, chile the far left is statistically just as prone to violence as the far right, if not more so. The USA isn't a place this statistic is equalized at all, and the USA GWOT actually exaggerates the violence of homegrown leftism in an attempt to preemptively prevent the USA's left movements from taking such a shift. They exaggerate it to get the legitimacy to preemptively repress or neutralize movements before they become a real problem. You can read numerous GWOT analysis reports on leftism, and these reports are focused on the concerns of global levels of left militancy potentially reaching US soil again. They discuss this becoming a problem in the future volatile moments. These discussions were publicly discussed frequently right before, and during occupy heavily.
one source:
https://www.counterextremism.com/countries/greece-extremism-and-terrorism The western left failed to build ANY kind of movement among the base in the last 30 years and they had more than enough opportunities to consolidate and prepare for something inevitable (like the aggression against Iran), to have a large movement encapsulating the party which will eventually be criminalized. Pre-WW1 SPD tactics were a must (even the Bolsheviks held up these tactics) but the western left failed to understand Kautsky and Plekhanov, let allone Lenin or Marx.
>>2731934Yes! No organization adapted to the XXI century, no program reflecting the XXI century, no international organization at all to unite all this separate struggles. What the fuck do you expect to happen when you sit cross armed regurgitating XX century theory and trying to integrate it with anarchist/trotskyite/leftcom slop??
>>2731858>Does political violence 'belong' to one side? Not really but post-WW2 and after the rise of the new Left in the West, it has generally been far-right extremists who are more likely to carry out assassinations, bombings, and terror attacks. The most radical violence associated with the post-WW2 western left was probably the Weather Underground, but they were often seen as incompetent jokes who literally blew themselves up. The Red Army Faction, while receiving a lot of media attention was expelled from the PLO due to a lack of discipline. Meanwhile a series of less famous but often more impactful robberies and attacks were carried out by neo-Nazi gangs, many of whom were in contact with East Germany for support.
>>2726913>We actually succeeded on pretty much everything besides the left-econ aspect this is political compass reddit ideology. There is no separating politics from economics. Also the "western left" did not succeed on "everything besides" because all of the "idpol" issues that are presumed to be "outside economcis" are still highly contentious. America still has prison slavery, and the prison slaves are still predominantley POC. America also has concentration camps and torture dungeons. The rest of "The West" still has a ton of idpol issues. People still fight over women, LGBT issues, ethnic minority and POC issues, etc. And this is all tied to economics anyway. false nuke.
This is the proletariat the west has to supposedly work with and organize to overthrow the government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Hat_RiotThis is like trying to make soup without liquid
>>2731281>It’s just more true crime slop which is inherently right wingOr an elite "vice" scandal. Profumo affair.
>>2731233>In all seriousness, the Epstein files have revealed the class character of the capitalists as being depraved degenerates and "the Left" isn't jumping on this opportunity as much as they should.Everyone is jumping on it including Democratic politicians which makes me less interested in its possibilities. Democrats are running ad campaigns, the fact that they can do it so easily makes me think it's pretty safe for them and it's an opportunity for them to front as populists and radicals without really being that (or maybe they are being radicals, just liberal-bourgeois radicals). The left-wing sects meanwhile are talking about the "Epstein class." But I don't see how demands about this get to a particular place. The feds released more Epstein files and which confirmed more that rich and powerful people were hanging around the dude, now what?
>>2732136This the case in WEST EUROPE and the USA. In Latin America, the statistics of violence are more evenly split. In south EUROPE, anarchists, and communists statistically hold the greatest number of extremist activities in their localities.
>>Left-wing/anarchists in Italy, 2,051 individuals prosecuted (8 arrested) for extremist activities (2024 alone). In southern EU countries
>>Over 80% of radical group violence involves far-left and anarchist groups clashing with the far-right and police.In 2025, Italian police reported around 3 far right incidents, whereas anarchists / communists were involved in 19 of the 22 incidents. In Greece, the left hold a total majority.
In western europe, and USA, this statistic is very different, with jihadis and far right having a monopoly on lethality.
Basically this just means that the USA left is bitch made. If USA's so-called militant left met with italian / greek anarchists, they'd suspect them of being cops for actually being fit and trained. I'm not joking, I've seen this happen. This leftist I knew made a trip to Italy and was confused to see a room full of bruiser looking types in leftist spaces. He joked that people in the USA would have assumed nazis or cops, because of the "tough guy" look. American leftists are as soft as baby shit. I've seen people in ski-masks start shit with nazis, then cry POLICE when they get their heads kicked. That's not warrior shit. What's even more funny to me is how disconnected the American left is from sharing global praxis, researching it, and discussing it in their news. The American left are just social democrats masquerading as communists; and it works because America is so far-right people actually think socdem is communist. The American left can tell you which DSA candidate they're going to run, they can tell you all about a democratic congressmans career, but do they know that greeks most wanted terrorist in 2016, was an anarchist who attempted to hijack a helicopter to free leftists from prison? Do they know about people almost dying on hunger strikes, or the indigenous taking up arms against oil land grabs in the amazon? Do they even share the stories of comrades in their OWN COUNTRY, who have served double digit sentences for riots? Maybe some obscure anarchist and ML blogs will, but the mainstream, American leftist discourse? No, they are locked into global electoral politics, and the spectacle of war. The American left, isn't really "left" yet.
>>2732721That’s why I mentioned the West, but it extends to Westernized intellectuals everywhere, basically the New Left ideology almost makes you biologically incapable of carrying out a violent action and the 1% who do try are usually so incompetent that the whole thing ends up becoming a dark comedy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asama-Sans%C5%8D_incident#Internal_purge >>2732938why did they even invite them to the group if they were just gonna kill them and get arrested by the police
>>2733594Because they aren’t revolutionary or insurgent groups, they’re cults filled with intellectual neurotics and one or two sociopaths who don’t really believe in the ideology but use the group to pursue their own criminal ends. The Symbionese Liberation Army is a best example of this. A group of university students were convinced by a criminal(who had previously robbed black prostitutes) that he had been imprisoned by an unjust system.
Their first and only assassination was of Marcus Foster, a black school superintendent whom they denounced as a “collaborationist”, the killing turned into a public-relations disaster for them. They managed only one successful bank robbery and another serious attempt robbing a sporting goods store ended in failure. They abandoned their van, which led police to their hideout house and resulted in a shootout. During the confrontation, the house caught fire (possibly by accident, possibly as a desperate tactic) and six members died while the rest escaped.
Their final attempt involved trying to bomb police cars, but they failed again due to poorly constructed explosives.
>>2733830their cause was right, but they did it in the most effeminate and spiritually homosexual way possible
>>2733859That's not the point I'm trying to make
I would add another problem: the left is suspicious of anyone who wants to join. This happens even in very small groups of less than 10 people who barely do anything besides talking and thinking what to do next. If you are not a threat, they won’t send the police to infiltrate. Infiltrate what exactly?
The left has to accept that in order to grow, some vulnerability is necessary.
>>2734134I still remember a post by a German guy who wanted to join left-wing causes in his country but was rejected every time because he was in the military and labeled an imperialist. He mentioned that he was an engineer and had never even left Germany, and even if he wasn't, how can you expect to win a revolution if you don’t have a single person who knows how to use a gun?
>Why do you think the Western left will never succeed?
I have no bile to spend.I just think the orbit of NATO has a combination of two things that make revolutionary change unlikely:
1) They have very advanced surveillance and intelligence apparatuses.
2) If their material circumstances get anywhere close to perceiving revolution as the only out… then capitalism has already failed on it's own. The bourgeois will just never let conditions deteriorate far enough in the imperial core, because they are the consumer base of globalization. If they can't buy shit, nobody can.
So my bets are on China sponsored socdems taking over with gibs, after NATO "loses" the cold war. Far far earlier than collapse. And keeping most of the bourgeoisie intact.
>>2734337>>2734196Western Leftists drowning in moralfaggotry and "Muh past sins" stuff is obnoxious as fuck.
Also every single Communist Revolution was done on the back of Millitary Officers and Military personal. Would the Bolshevik Revolution have succeeded without the Kerensky offensive having swaths of the Navy and Army going "Fuck this shit, we're joining Lenin". The CPC was born from former KMT officers.
>>2730934What does militancy even do? There is no real point to protesting at this point because we know it doesn't work. Elites do not listen to Protests and especially not militancy and they are clamping down and banning protesting more than ever while the general public claps on like idiotic seals because "DEY BLOCKED AN AMBULANCE" or "DEY SAID AN ANTISEMITISM" or "THEY SMASHED A WINDOW".
The left needs to move past all this LARPY stuff and pick up and study books on pursuasion.
Honestly these books need to be part of any Leftist 101 pack
>Propaganda - Edward Bernays>Public Opinion - Walter Lippmann>Influence - Robert B Cialdini>Thinking Fast and Slow - Daniel Kahneman>Nudge - Richard H Thaler>Advertising - David Ogilvy>The 48 Laws of Power - Robert GreeneProbably the most influential books in how modern Politics actually functions. All these books are basically considered holy texts in PR and marketing departments.
Militancy only should become part of the left once the left has proven itself, built a political power base, and proven it should be trusted, then meets violent resistance first from the Capitalist/Establishment class.
Also I will add, that people on the left blame the wrong people for being glowies.
I've been called a Glowie so many fucking times by fellow leftists because I question and critique so much of the idiotic bullshit I see the left do. I critique the LARPing, I critique the performatism, I critique the do nothing lifestylism, the do nothing "Anti-imperialism" that is really just Campism.
"GLOWIE, GLOWIE, GLOWIE"
Yet this is not what Glowies do. Read about the infiltration of the left historically, go read court cases where leftist orgs or anarchists were dragged before grand juries, The Spy Cops scandal that is currently playing out etc.
Glowies function by going into orgs, seeing the stupid shit and pushing for it even harder. They become the most militant and vocal SUPPORTERS in an org and push that they are not going hard enough on their lifestylism, militancy, Idpol etc. Why not protest for restoring the swastika? It's a beautiful Buddhist symbol (btw this is something I've seen leftist orgs do IRL not even fucking kidding), We shouldn't clap or make loud noise it's abelist! Actually we should focus all our issues on fringe tttt nonsense and it should be the litmus test of being leftist! We should go throw Molotovs at police the public will rise up for us everyone is angry!
How did the CPUSA get destroyed? Because you had the Campaign against White Chauvinism pushed by FBI agents as a strategy of tension that caused dysfunction in the org based on idpol grounds, that allowed the FBI to seed people snitching on eachother for Idpol offenses, which uncovered the scale of the CPUSA membership and led into the McCarthyist trials.
This is how Glowies function.
Even a vice article about it
https://www.vice.com/sv/article/how-the-fbi-goes-after-activists/I've said this on Leftypol TONNES of times. One of my childhood friends back in the 2000s was a staffer for the Attorney General, and he said after Islamist groups, Anarchists were the ones that they most tracked and had most assets and agents of. He told me to stay the fuck away from Anarchists because pretty much every single Anarchist group, even ones of 5-10 people, had assets or even undercover agents. If you are an anarchist on this site, and you've hung around with other Anarchists, there is a 100% chance you've been talking to a fed or informant.
I don't think this is limited to just Anarchists btw, I think most Socialist orgs have some informants in them. In the UK, it turned out pretty much every Socialist group had informants and actual undercover agents working often for decades, in positions all through Socialist orgs often even the Party Executive (spycops).
>>2734337I see turbo online people like you going off about this on one side or the other but I litteraly did activism with people who previously fought in Africa for imperialism and taught leftists military coms and tactics so we could be more effective at opening squats for migrants, doing zads and fighting cops. Nobody made a fuss about that in environments that had all the kinds of leftist you can find at the ideology shop.
Lack of conesion
>>2735341I think Terrorism in the end just hurts the left, it doesn't get the effect from the public that people think. While groups like the Black Hand had massive impact, it's important to note that the Black Hand were not leftists but were proto-fascists, so the left didn't get the blame. The Left should only use this form of violence in reaction, if Leftists are being killed (see for example Environmentalists in South America and Africa being assassinated), it's fine to defend yourself and fight back, but I just don't think killing people has that much impact especially in the modern day where there decentralised institutional power rather than personal power.
>>2735329For me a big thing I've noticed is generation.
Zoomers and Late Millennials are super puritain and crazy moralistic who believe in functionally Red Guard blood lineage theory and have every shitlib tik tok/tumblr shibboleth as basically the litimus test if you are a "Left wing" or not.
Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralistic as Millennial dirtbag leftists have cycled out from here and got replaced with Zoomer TheDeprogram/GreenandPleasant etc types.
>>2735365I never said the Black Hand were leftists, I was using them as an example of how a relatively small group can create the conditions for radical change.
>>2730827Non western proletariat are still more class conscious than western ones.
>all dealing with the consequences of the New Left.New Left was because of classcucked proletariat. FFS the class with the most agency is the cause, not the effect.
>>2726879The Western Left will never succeed for the same reason an anti-sacrifice Aztec movement would never succeed. It goes against the core beliefs of their society. Not that the non-Western left has much luck, either, but the Westerners are really in the hole.
>>2735561>Non western proletariatWhether that’s true or not, the reality is that communists and socialists here are much like those in the West, just a small group of intellectuals and little else. They lack any broad public support and are largely irrelevant.
>>2735567They have more success than their western counterpart.
>>2735598more than nothing you mean?
>>2735624Sure. At the very least, the non western communists and socialists are fumbling on their own terms, while westerners really dont have anything to fumble with.
>>2735598Care to give any examples? I live in south asia and our communists groups are literally just a handful of men in the mountains of Odisha who got almost entirely wiped out once the government put in some slight effort to deal with them
>>2726879>thread with loaded question as title>unreadable poorly paced slop>every fallacy in the bookno thanks
>>2735685
>muh metaphysical categories of hoooman nature that are eternal and fixed
the chinese wear suits and hang a picture of a german jew in their parliament.
europe and north america use sanskrit arabic numerals
fortune 500 corporations uses a scientific method of product innovation invented in the USSR (TRIZ)
the world is not fixed categories. there is no eternal occidental. there is no eternal oriental. your brain is stuck in the gutter of 19th century racist pseudoscience.
>>2735740The Naxalites are already much more successful than any New Left insurgent groups in the west.
>>2735779The Naxalites are not part of the New Left. They developed intellectually outside academia, emerging from peasant rebellions and were Maoists in the most literal sense. They fought as best they could, but even at their peak they mostly controlled isolated villages in eastern India. Around the 2010s when the government became somewhat more centralized, it was able to deal with them more effectively. They still exist today, but they are much weaker.
>>2735820Okay and? Still more coherent and impactful than any New Left insurgency in the west.
>>2735826I never said they were New Left, retard. I said their western insurgency counterpart were the New Left (SDS/BPP/SLA) etc etc
You two are just nitpicking coz you cant counter my central point. I accept your concessions.
>>2735789I usually agree with you, but comparing anything the US/Western left faced in the late 20th century with the torture and massacres experienced by people in the third world is genuinely kind of offensive. The political repression that the CPUSA dealt with mostly happened in the 1950s and I acknowledge that it occurred but it was relatively brief. However I don’t consider a couple hundred social democrats getting blacklisted from making movies to be real repression.
>>2735840
Again, I never said otherwise, only that in the west, the classcucked proletariat allowed their bourgeois to hold all the cards in the first place.
You cannot claim to be a marxist and deny the proletariat, the revolutionary class under captialism, any agency in the matter.
>>2735848>>2735840You’re both retarded. You see class conflict from a metaphysical perspective rather than in military terms. The bourgeoisie are short-sighted degenerates whose empires are falling. But peasants and workers will not liberate themselves on their own. They may take part, but it requires men of conviction, trained and capable. And that revolution will likely come with aid from China.
>>2735904Orthodox Marxism died long ago, what remains today is Marxism-Leninism and its variations.
>>2735365>Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralistic as Millennial dirtbag leftists have cycled out from here and got replaced with Zoomer TheDeprogram/GreenandPleasant etc types.i hate this genpol slop, and i hate isg but zoomer shit like the deprogram is way more openly marxist than millenial "dirtbag" shit like chapotraphouse was. i straddle the fence betwen both generations and that is just my objective analysis
>>2726879Every single "point" you made can be reduced to
>leftists were mean to me onlineExtremely anti-materialist. Useless.
>>2735365>Look at even how much Leftypol has become super puritain and moralisticLMAO NO if anything the opposite is true, there's a bunch of rightoids posting on here now, we're due for purges if anything
At this point the western left should adopt the ouroboros as its symbol because of how self-defeating it is.
Western society is the problem, all of its classes
>>2726879I recently moved to Europe, and it has surprised me how the left spaces are filled with queers, trans, and racial culture war. I thought it was a meme but it’s real. I had to write my pronouns next to my name on the sticker.
I feel these spaces are outlet for people who feel discriminated and isolated. Through “politics” they can legitimize their struggle. There’s no real interest in challenging capital though. Which is why the topic is rarely discussed, overshadowed by strange ideas such as “decolonizing” our minds.
>>2735819it did and it was glorious you stupid leftcuck
I think the western left may never succeed because of the Samson Option. Both the Zionist entity and the US would never let go of power without destroying everything first.
>>2759419The problem is you're hanging out with the kids when you should be drinking with the veteran anarcho-alcoholics over 50.
>>2759419As the other person said, you want older people. Students and other adolescent vermin are a bane on the labour movement and literally what is killing it (in central Europe, at least).
t. union organiser and local party rep.
>>2735341This is a myth. The Serbian government was not involved in the assassination of the archduke. Even the Hungarian minister Tisza acknowledged this at the time. Young Bosnia was just like the circles in Tsarist Russia. Disconnected, particular and independent. Many of them read Chernishevsky, Herzen and Nietzsche.
>>2758936Marx praised Feuerbach for his "true materialism" which incorporated relations between people. We got capitalists without capital and anti-social socialists, sad.
You’ve hit the nail on the head regarding the '1917 LARP' and the refusal to use modern PR. If the goal is to actually reach 'normies' and the working class, the movement needs to stop looking like a dusty history book and start looking like something that belongs in the 21st century.
The aesthetic elitism and the 'shouting slogans' culture you mentioned are exactly why people tune out. To break that cycle, we need tools that bridge the gap between heavy theory and relatable, modern content. This is where something like
https://aicartoon.app comes in handy. It allows anyone to transform stiff, inaccessible ideas into engaging, visual formats that actually work on modern social media.
Instead of another wall of text that only an 'in-group' will read, using AI-driven visuals can help frame a message that is charismatic and visually appealing. If the Left wants to stop being an 'alternative scene' and start being a professional movement, it has to start using the tech and marketing tools available right now to actually compete in the attention economy.
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