Before I start about whole topic of this post I would like to point out that this post mainly focus on Communists and not other tendencies among "radical leftism" because their justification may systematically vary and require different approach so I would like to keep it rather focused on concrete mindset in certain group of people.
Alot of people who become Communists today may have different reasons for their radical outlook of current state of things, but what fundamentally may cause for these people even to look critically at current state of things is definetly whole history of struggle between oppressed and oppressing and analysis itself on how even does this struggle effect people's state of being and how we as people can eventually build a movement which does opposse current state of things which as we know dynamically change in this whole history of struggle in name of class intrests.
But how does it even relate to Veganism?
Honestly it does very much relate in contemporary developed states because we live in very unique times where we as people (oppossed to third world countries) can consciously decide between consuming products which are result of animal exploitation and which aren't, but as we know Communism doesn't come from moralist standpoint as I pointed it out in first part of the post, but this fact isn't even about morality (or ethics) itself but it's about our reasoning in first place, we take certain analysis as something true and based on certain methodology we come to conclusion that class dominance (oppression) is something which can and even should be overcome in this whole history of struggle dynamic, but we can argue that slave fighting against laws which impose slavery on them is in their intrest, and we can go even further in Communist analysis that certain classes may share certain intrests in this whole history as for example early bourgeoisie fought against slavery because it was in their intrest, even tho they didn't share their status and conditions in state of things they found theirself.
Modern unconscious proletarians itself doesn't care about things like overthrowing or critiquing current state of things because they mostly lack any class consciousness, but proletarians who are class conscious (communists) should be aware of fact that capitalism doesn't only take advantage of other classes but also of nature itself, I'm not talking about humanity itself fighting against nature for control to ensure their survival but capitalism literally take advantage of natural world for their benefits and destroy our planet slowly for material gains which include exploatition of animals, and here I come to my main point.
Why it is then that Communists consciousslly tend to ignore the fact that Capitalism is also deadly for not only us proletarians but also for nature and animals, alot of Communists take struggle with (proletarian:) LGBTQ+ people, Women and Racial Minorities but how it is that "these" Communists don't care about other forms of exploatition which include animal cruelty and enviromental catastrophe, my point isn't to take it as main case of our struggle (because main scope of communist analysis is CLASS struggle) but i want to point out that even tho we have perfect tool for critique and analysis conditions in which Capitalism take advantage of enviroment and animal lifes for their individual gain yet most of "these" Communists ignore it.
I am aware that Veganism is mainly an ethical choice and problem with some of fanatical Vegans is imposing their values on people which can't or doesn't even have material basis or knownledge to switch to Vegan diet, but most Vegans are against anti-historical and eurocentrict analysis of world, they tend to showcase how people in contemporary states have choice yet they refuse to switch because of societal norms (which are definetly fueled by bourgeoisie in oder to keep their profits) but I see it as something which is (as other forms of social struggles like LGBTQ+ rights, Feminism etc…) rather something rooted in class struggle, alot of Vegans ignore class struggle and alot of Communists ignore how their own tools points out that not only us humans are being exploitated by the current system, yet alot of Communists just look for excuses, my whole post isn't about trying to turn Communism into intersectionality/activism as some of Western Marxists or Post-Modernists tend to, but to bring an debate on why you or other Communists don't care about animal and enviromental exploitation and why we even should in first place.
I think we shouldn't be modern day superheroes which are here to help everyone from everywhere but we should acknownledge that we as people living in developed societies can make a choice which doesn't involve animal exploitation or enviromental decay.
TL;DR
Communists have tools which perfectly showcase how Capitalism doesn't only exploit proletariat but also an animals for profits yet Communists mostly don't care about it, whole point of post is to ask why "you" as Communist (or whatever you align with), don't care about animal exploation in daily life and just look for excuses why you shouldn't switch for vegan diet such.
>As an individual I can't alone change how society continue to exploit animals!!!
<I agree that individuals don't change much as it goes for anything in history including Communism, if you think otherwise with your shitty X interpretation of Communism then you're just an Utopist, this post isn't about changing society through individual decisions but actually discussison about topic of Veganism and Communism.
All protein should come from beans, hunting overpopulated prey populations, and exterminations of invasive species. Animal agriculture is reactionary and as destructive as fossil fuel exploitation.
>>2743587This post is about vegan diet and understanding reasons behind rejecting it among communists, not about general stance of liberal vegans.
>>2743561We know and understand why it happens. But liberals cannot face the idea that "choosing with their wallet" and simply abstaining from purchase will not make the problem go away. It is a morality question, and as marxists we shouldnt ponder of what is or isnt moral.
One can care about animals, be vegan or not, the same way that one can abstain from consumerism to any degree and also acknowledge that its a mere byproduct of capitalism, also the fact that animals cant organize to take down the bourgeoisie, its the working class who can.
>>2743561>the picwouldn't happen
>>2743627>>animals cant organize to take down the bourgeoisiesure about that bud??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4zIuyambEw I can't trust people who LARP as leftists and who go on about claiming to care about the oppressed, the inequality, suffering, etc… but then as soon as it is a non-human being tortured and killed for profit they turn their brains off and pretend not to know about it
it may not be feasible for everyone to go vegan yet, but if you aren't actively doing your bit to reduce the torture, murder and enslavement of non-human animals by at least avoiding the worst offending products then I really just struggle to trust your motivations and judgement
baby chickens get thrown alive into meat grinders as industry standard. milk cows live 1/5th of a natural life span, are repeatedly raped (force inseminated), and made to watch their young taken away for veal every few months.
people eat literal babies so long as it's a lamb or goat or pig.
speaking of pigs, humans still use gas chambers. millions of them are killed via gas chambers holocaust style every year but nobody cares because its a pig not a human.
>>2743577
>there is no ethical consumption under capitalism
this is a cope than can be used to justify anything and everything.
may as well live purely off israeli goods in such cases.
basically the same as being swiss in ww2 and living off nazi products because "no ethical consumption"
bullshit take
>>2744231Feral hogs need to be eradicated
>>2744234you should be eradicated
>>2744235Protecting any environment means culling overpopulated prey and eradicating invasive species
I am a Vegan, but Veganism and Communism have absolutely nothing in common. Communism is not an abstract moral goodness, but it is the future in which we live in a classless society. That's not to say it doesn't have anything to do with ethics or morals (both are socially defined), but Communism is fundementally a different fight than Veganism. It is only about humans. I am skeptical of anyone who is a Vegan above being a Communist. We can fight for Veganism when Communism or higher stage socialism has been established, which won't be in our lifetimes.
>>2743587Those are liberal Vegans, who are not actually trying to get rid of animal cruelty but instead just the worst part of it. They're the same as social fascists basically. It's the practice of livestock farming as a whole which is wrong, not just the worst examples of it.
>>2744231All those things are horrible, but it's stupid to not trust comrades who aren't Vegans just because of that. It doesn't matter what their moral stance about animals is if they are an effective revolutionary. Veganism can't really be a proper political movement until Communism. Then the struggle against farming can actually take place rather than it just being a consumer movement.
>>2744244I don't see any reason other than irrational anthropocentric bias why communism shouldn't be extended to nonhuman animals as well, but the problem with most actually existing veganism and vegetarianism is that it's a very individualistic single-issue politics or moral/ethical position that, while ethically correct, also tends to ignore the reality that we won't achieve any meaningful form of animal liberation without communism. case in point: I'm not vegan or vegetarian but that's mainly out of materialist reasons (being too poor to not be able to eat whatever I have access to).
A gunshot to the lungs is a much better death than getting run over by a car
>>2743587i just wanna eat beans and live longer, retards will keep doing their daily animal holocaust for the most mid tasting meat on earth. it's not a moral thing for me. meat tards will literally tell me I'm poisoning myself when I'm the healthiest I've ever been. They're retarded.
I break for fish or fancy cheese every few months but otherwise I eat like 98% vegan calories. ok actually I also consume a little honey sometimes which some vegantards consider not vegan but I don't really care. yes I also take vitamin supplements because I'm not stupid.
>>2743587If those didn't exist most people would not be able to eat as much meat as they do anyways
>meatfags
Nobody sane says this
>>2744419Sorry, they should have said carnists
veganism is a consumer activist movement. from the perspective of communists that doesnt work because you need control over production not consumption.
the marxist position is that humans are uniquely capable of the act of liberation, and are also animals, so the first step in animal liberation is to liberate workers and take over production. once you have a dictatorship of the proletariat all you need is vegan stalin and they can mandate the phasing out of animal exploitation. probably after technology has been distributed such that we eliminate human exploitation and there is no risk of mass famine because the distinction between developed and underdeveloped nations has been abolished.
>>2744415indeed, there's a lot of reasons to argue from a purely materialistic standpoint that the meat industry is not only unethical but also is an example of sheer nonsensical bourgeois decadence. from a biological standpoint, it's also becoming increasingly harder to argue that there's no ethical problems with industrial meat farming, because while for much of human history we've been seemingly willfully ignorant of nonhuman animal cognition, there's study after study that you can point to over the past 25 years or so that not just primates or mammals but even "simple" animals like fish and insects demonstrate an ability to do more advanced reasoning than we previously assumed, and also have their own inner lives with distinct personalities and emotions. I find that any arguments against this end up not being qualitatively different from the same sort of chauvinism that lead to Europeans arguing that colonialism is fine actually because nonwhites are all savages anyways.
>>2744419silence meatfag
Veganism is objectively morally correct but it is also unhealthy and has little to do with leftism really.
Vegan correlate with left in the west because it's perceived as new and foreign so it mostly attract high-oppenness high-agreability people. Veganism is dharma and buddhic countries is a hard-right thing.
Also lmao at the idea Che would be offended by veganism or wathever. The oldfag left are really basket cases.
>>2744413That is true, meat would something you'd get once a week or two and I think that would better for everyone
>>2743561>pic relChe wouldn't say that
Terminally online idealists will face the wall when the time comes
>>2744451>morally correctOpinion disregarded moralist
>>2744556Yeah. The way liberals frame Che is insane, dude was humanitarian to a fault
Another thing I'll say: we will eat lab grown meat in the future.
>b-but it's expensive
So is real meat, it only hits the market at a reasonable price because governments inject a fuckton of money on it through tax incentives and direct investment
>b-but we're not there yet
Growing meat cells is kind of simple and solved. The current bottleneck is reproducing tissue and texture in a way that mimicks real meat. A major problem right now is that, in the US for example, the labs work independently under NDAs and without necessary public investment. Once this is solved, all you need is to scale production
>>2744559I once casually brought him up to some liberal friend of mine that I hadn't spoken to in a while and it was like watching the sleeper agent programming kick in where he started calling him a murderer and a homophobe and idk what. I was like dude where are you getting all this shit from lmao?
>>2744563>>2744559What is the appeal of Che
>>2744569What do you mean? He was a cool guy and a handsome man who gave up his privileged lot in life as a rich med student to lead a revolution/liberation against great odds and succeed.
After his success in Cuba he went on to try to help other revolutionary movements across the world. He became a world famous figure representing freedom fighters and revolution. All across the world his image is synonymous with the struggle for freedom. A friend of mine once told me their palestinian father thought he was palestinian until he was like 20, just because of how much his image is proliferated there and associated with their struggle
>>2744579Sounds very romanticist
>>2744569He was a privileged medical student who was radicalized by witnessing first-hand the suffering of the oppressed and cast all away to fight as guerrillero for the liberation of Latin America. In fact, his political positions are excessively humanitarian (which strays a little from the communist doctrine, earning him criticism as a revisionist) and he even got himself killed for what you could call adventurism in a country that had nothing to do with him. Thus he became a martyr.
The allegations of Che being a hard-line conservative is largely weaponized hysteria for two reasons:
- He was as homophobic as every other straight man of his time, arguably even less so.
- He was a guerrillero who killed reactionaries in battle and executed war criminals. Nothing strikes more fear and butthurt in the bourgeoisie than this.
In truth, he was too soft. Castro and Che left a bunch of caught spies and saboteurs alive for no good reason other than muh moral highground.
>>2744584That's the point. He's a romantical hero-esque figure and that makes his portrayal by liberals even more jarring
>waahhhhh it is da consoooomers who are guilty waaahhh
Mods permaban people blaming proletarians for the Big Meat's monopoly.
>>2744584How so? Too romanticist for what? You asked with the appeal is. Well his appeal is as a romantic and heroic figure that inspires millions
>>2744249Yeah, but communism is something that the people themselves establish, it is all about class which is an entirely human concept, while animals can't abolish cruelty themselves. They are just not the same thing. It's important to separate Communism from broader moral movements.
Also, I want to separate Veganism as a 'nature' movent from what I believe in. In nature there is as much animal cruelty as in human society. Both must go. I want a world where there no sentient creature is being eaten, not just it happening in the 'natural' way. We can have space colonies where everything is controlled, and animals can have the simulation of hunting or being hunted, and for the predator it succeedes and kills the prey, while for the prey it escapes, and this can be done through a neural link or through complicated graphics (I got this idea from my first post on leftypol). I also think life should be extended to every corner of the universe, but this is life that lives forever and does not have to kill to survive.
>>2744586That’s the wrong point. I need more science, more logic, more historical progression, but i’m not getting enough of that here. I need something material, but I’m not getting that.
>>2744595>Too romanticist for whatFor me.There’s a disconnect.
>>2744599>We can have space colonies where everything is controlled, and animals can have the simulation of hunting or being hunted, and for the predator it succeedes and kills the prey, while for the prey it escapes, and this can be done through a neural link or through complicated graphicsLunacy
>>2744602In communism the closest you get to "individual" contribution is writing theory and Che was not a theorist if that's what you want. If Che had never been born, someone else would have taken his role. We don't operate under great men theory etc. The point was something else and you're changing topics
>>2744603That’s not necessarily moon related, so no it’s not actually.
>>2744605>If Che had never been born, someone else would have taken his roleI know. But i’m just confused everyone is talking about him this much at all, whether they hate him or not. I get if people still talked about him, I understand that. But to this degree, it’s confounding to me.
Animals don’t care about the economy, they’ll jut eat you, even the supposed herbivores are actually opportunistic carnists anyway
Le humans are special. Its true. As marx says "le humans are le species being because…". The rest you will have to read and understand yourselves
>>2744602>For me.There’s a disconnect.Ah well different strokes for different folks. That's why they have menus at restaurants as trump said.
I don't have
that much of a adoration for Guevara either, I'm not too fond of martyrdom and adventurism, but you have to have a certain appreciation for what he represents imo and why people like him, at least if you want to understand that aspect of the struggle.
Fidel was ever bit as homophobic as Che but that melted away as he actually met with homos in UMAP camps, as most homophobia does
>>2744603There's nothing wrong abouy imagining hopeful communist futures
>>2744672Why imagine something one will never live to see?
>>2744675For hope? For the enjoyment of it?
>>2744688Why hope for something you personally wont live to see?
>>2744698Some people care for things outside themselves anon
>>2744698I don't know, but I do
>>2744706Who are you quoting?
>>2744675You won't live to see communism either. It's fine caring only about yourself, but you shouldn't really be a communist if so because if you are going to be part of the vanguard you are going to have to be mostly selfless.
Lab grown meat will become a viable technology with just a little more investment; so I would prefer that we pursue that while phasing out animal agriculture.
I don’t eat meat because I feel empathy for other mammals, I believe their brains are similar to ours and that they experience suffering in a way similar to ours. I don’t care about birds and fish, but I don’t eat them either. I don’t think being vegan would improve the quality of life for animals on farms.
>>2744584romantic or not that is the truth
>>2744567This singer strangely almost sounds like Bat'ko
>>2743561How far does the caring for animals go? If we assume its bad to hurt animals because they're concious and have feelings, where do we draw the line on what we shouldnt harm or not? Are plants as alive as these animals? And if so, are even smaller life concious too? Is it genocidal to use soap?
So my answer is to simply not to care about it and only suppose other humans are concious, since this is our only certainty.
Cats and dogs? Theyre cute good servants, Ill still protect them. But I dont care much about the pigs.
>>2761329i think anything capable of noioception should be a pretty solid dividing line.
>Are plants as alive as these animals?yes, do you think plants are minerals?
>And if so, are even smaller life concious too?Likely not, but possibly.
>Is it genocidal to use soap? Yes. The question is if we should care.
>>2744463almost like we evolved with that particular diet for 200,000 years and only recently became capable of cramming meat
>>2761323>someone using my meme only 2 hours after i made it>the post is based and i agree with itfeels so good
Factory farming is provably reactionary when you look at the logistics.
The original purpose of hunting animals was that they were collecting more energy from plants than groups of humans could gather themselves. When this moved to agriculture, this was then animals collecting nutrients and energy from wastelands that could not be tilled and farmed. Whilst numerically inefficient, as the animals ended up using most of the calories they were eating, they were still net energy and vitamin gains to the societies that ate the meat.
Current factory farming flips this. Animals must be fed from human-grown crops. Given the usual 10% trophic level efficiency, this means that every calorie requires 10x more diesel fuel for tractors, 11x more trucking diesel fuel, 10x the labor. It requires further energy produced by humans on air conditioning and ventilation lest the animals die of overheating and carbon dioxide asphyxiation. It further requires enormous amounts of antibiotics production, which costs more in energy such as diesel fuel and raw resources, it requires the labor of slaughterhouse workers, it requires the capital invested into slaughterhouses, the slaughterhouses need energy. Unlike earlier forms of animal farming, factory farming waste is far too concentrated, and now also massively polluted with antibiotics, which is leading directly to the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria.
>>2761323It's always Langley posters doing the whole "communists would personally execute and bathe in the blood of commuinsts today" because only a fed is actually stupid enough to believe that people who dedicated their lives trying to free the workers of the world would get hung up on minor culture war bullshit nobody cared about last year let alone last century.
>>2761448>because only a fed is actually stupid enough to believe that people who dedicated their lives trying to free the workers of the world would get hung up on minor culture war bullshit nobody cared about last year let alone last century.right wingers subhumans always try to bring this narrative, as to separate and deorganise the opposition, when in fact no one cares uygha.
>>2744401Anti pythagorean spotted
>>2744419the argument was sound, they clearly said meatfags to fit in with imageboard retards and you used that as an excuse to ignore the substance of what they were saying
>>2744436not all vegans are animal liberation consumer activists though. some vegans just want to decrease their risk of several kinds of cancer and live longer :^)
Unique IPs: 36