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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Previous thread: >>2381106

Dump all the seemingly pointless, dubious, and frivolous questions that don't deserve their own shitty threads.

Got a question that's probably been asked a million times before? You're in the right landfill, buddy. Post it here.

Threads that otherwise might go in here will eventually find themselves become merged to this thread.

Previous QTDDTOT Archives
https://archive.is/ga3OG
135 posts and 25 image replies omitted.

>>2784023
This is why I support the use of the term "Epstein class" because it accurately conveys the social and economic meaning of the bourgeois class to the average burger

where do I buy physical copies of lenins complete work

What's the difference between Communism and Capitalism?

>>2784216
This is actually a pretty good question.

>>2782902
capitalism already measures labor time through key performance indicators and clocking in/clocking out. simply put: if you don't generate surplus in a commodity production setting, you get fired. in socialism the surplus is simply publicly owned rather than privately own. See gothakritik for more info.

Will disabled people who cant go to work starve, or does communism have welfare?

>>2784342
Marx supports welfare (1875):
<There remains the other part of the total product, intended to serve as means of consumption […] funds for those unable to work, etc., in short, for what is included under so-called official poor relief today.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
Lenin appears to not support welfare (1918):
<the prime, basic and root principle of socialism: “He who does not work, neither shall he eat.” “He who does not work, neither shall he eat”—every toiler understands that.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/may/22b.htm

>>2784342
it's a bit different from welfare but no the disabled do not work under communism (except for (You), (You) are going to the writing poetry gulag

>>2784227
Thanks

>>2784216
At first, I was thinking that communism wants more state and capitalism wants less, but then I realized, that in the end, capitalism becomes a state and communism ultimativly wants small communes and no state. What the fuck.

>>2784216
who own the means of production, which class is defended or oppressed by the state, and for whose benefit the surplus is used for

How realistic is Hideo Kojima's elite? I'm not saying we are controlled by fucking computers, but rather an elite who plans everything including who wins the elections, or which laws are passed.

>>2785045
Kojima is right about elections being a sham, but overlooks the fact that politicians / the state favour capital and are beholden to it, not some secret cabal that run the world.

>>2785045
>an elite who plans everything including who wins the elections, or which laws are passed.
its called the bourgeoisie

I feel I have a very superficial knowledge of what liberalism is. Do you happen to know a very good source that describes what it is and criticizes it at the same from a marxist pov?

>>2785247
Liberalism: A Counter-history by Domenico Losurdo

>>2785250
Thanks a lot anon!

Been working my way through Capital, reached part 3 recently. Hope it's ok to post these questions all at once, sorry if some of them are stupid or answered later in the book.

What determines the value of fiat currency?

At some point Marx says that when you have two competing money commodities, one (I think the overvalued one) ends up being the actual general equivalent that the other measures its value in. Later he says that gold and silver work as dual measures of value on a global scale. How does that work?

Does the value of labor-capacity factor into the total value of a product? Like if I need 8 hours labor-time worth of products to sustain myself daily, and it takes me one eight hour workday to produce some commodity, is that commodity worth 8 hours labor-time or 16? If just 8, why?

So surplus value results from buying labor-capacity, the commodity that generates value on consumption. And apparently that commodity has to be sold for a limited time, by someone who owns their own labor-capacity. So does chattel slavery not result in surplus value?

Should I do drugs before going to work? Would it make easier for me to socialize with coworkers? I don't really want to but sometimes it might be for the better.


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>>2785337
>What determines the value of fiat currency?
Its aggregate demand, recorded by rates of interest (which itself is relative to the rate of profit). Marx criticises the very idea of fiat currency [capital vol. 1, ch. 2, note 11] since he believes money is always a commodity [MMT disagrees with this assertion]. He as yet provides a robust theory of depreciation (e.g. inflation) in chapter 3, but ties it to the precious metal underlying currency. This can be understood in one sense by Gresham's Law, which Marx reproduces:
<The quantity of money thrown into the circulation at the beginning of each day is of course determined by the sum of the prices of all the commodities circulating simultaneously side by side. But once in circulation, coins are, so to say, made responsible for one another. If the one increase its velocity, the other either retards its own, or altogether falls out of circulation
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch03.htm
Thus, where values (e.g. prices) fall, currency increases its supply, which then replaces the more valuable money for the lesser. So, if we apply this to fiat, we see that inflation (e.g. depreciation) ideally expresses the growth of an economy. Marx in this primary case is only dealing with pre-capitalist notions of money, but later sees that credit-money plays a central role in capitalist dynamics (which he does relate to the rate of interest), from the mercantilist period. I write about the history of theories of interest here: >>2755314
The rate of interest is seen as proportional to the supply of money (since evidently, more money means less borrowing costs), which caused early mercantilists (Potter, Child) to view the rate of commerce as the effect of a primary cause of interest, while later mercantilists (Petty, Locke) viewed the rate of interest as an effect of the rate of commerce. Only later do we get Massie (1750), who sees that the rate of interest is determined by the rate of profit, which continues into Adam Smith (1776), etc.
>gold and silver work as dual measures of value on a global scale
He is taking the position of Steuart (1767) in delineating between domestic coin and international bullion, as scaled by relative value. Copernicus makes similar comments in "Monetae Cudendae Ratio" (1526), that currency (e.g. that which is "current") limits circulation by trust (e.g. domestic policy) and so one should trade with debased coinage internally, but trade with bullion internationally.
>Does the value of labor-capacity factor into the total value of a product?
Our capacity to labour (labour-power) is afforded by wages, and yes, wages are accounted for in the final product by costs.
>So does chattel slavery not result in surplus value?
According to Marx, no, since slaves (like animals) are factored as fixed capital, not variable capital. This blog explains:
https://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.com/2015/07/marx-on-slaves-as-fixed-capital.html?m=1

>>2785045
We ARE controlled by computers

Is mayonaise bourgeois?

Who invented capitalism?

>>2785412
Donald Trump

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What does Uygha mean and why are people calling me that

>>2785589
Uygha is short for Uyghur. It's basically the n-word around here. Getting called that shows that people really hate you.

why is this website still called leftypol? most people here are some shade of liberal and zionist collaborator, and if you are to the left of kautsky or lasselle you get called ultra, glowie, thirdworldist, fed, etc. depending on what pole of class-collaborationism (western or eastern) you are not even opposing but just calling for what it is, and you might even get straight up banned for it
the faq page says the purpose of the website is non-sectarian unity against capitalism, fascism and liberalism, but none of this is true in practice
would it really be that bad to just rename it socdempol? everyone knows the communist/anti-capitalist movement is dead on an international level, why not just be more honest? if the situation changes you can always change the name to leftypol again

>>2785743 (me)
just realized maybe this doesnt fit the "dont deserve their own thread" category since its kind of a long question but whatever

>>2785743
>>2785756
have you considered suicide? would solve all your problems

>>2785743
Least insane self described "M-L"

>>2785412
The School of Salamanca and the rich families in the Republic of Venice.

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>>2783240
What do you think of the common argument that AES states (at least ones that did central planning) failed because people loafed on the job because the system couldn't track effort and give proper rewards? Sounds plausible enough but I see the same thing in capitalist firms. People "joke" about how they only do 1 or 2 hours of real work a day. Depends on the job, I guess. Easier in some than others. And some workplaces you're increasingly tracked and monitored.

>>2785915
All compulsory labour has incentives; i think higher wages are probably better than gulags, but if you are attempting to overproduce (for example, steel) you must then underpay. So its a question of political Will, which we can compare to taxation. Would people worker harder or softer if they were taxed at an incriment to income? There must be a rate where people give up trying to make money when money is increasingly impossible to save. So its a balance of incentives and policy i would say.

What's the problem with liberalism?

>>2786052
It killed 1 billion people

>>2786062
I hate this double standard, when liberalism kills a billion people its bad but when I do it nobody cares!

>>2786062
Source?


>>2785412
>invented
modes of production aren't invented.

>>2786087
Kill people who matter next time!


Why do people here make no diffetence between Liberalism, Libertarianism and Capitalism?

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>>2786052
Liberalism (e.g. freedom-ism) we may initially regard as an economic movement to allow for free trade. I discuss this here: >>2785881
Political Liberalism if often traced back to English common law; in particular, the Magna Carta (1215), but this legal document was only actionable to members of the competing ruling class, not the common folk. The text is re-interpreted in the revolutionary period of 1628 - 1658 as pertaining to the freeborn rights of Englishmen in general, most especially Habeas Corpus (the right to not be falsely imprisoned). The true legal revolution occured in 1689 however, by the establishment of the Bill of Rights (1689) after the glorious revolution overthrew the restored monarchy. The revolution was also expressly protestant (which is the whig legacy). Revolutionary movements existed in the 17th century, such as the Levellers (1641-49) and the Diggers (1649-53) who were more radical in their approach. The levellers are regarded as proto-liberal and the diggers are regarded as proto-communist. Religious movements also arose, such as with George Fox, who founded the "Quakers", with a new doctrine of individual spiritual revelation (the Quakers in history have been ultra-liberals in every respect). The revolutionary protestants were the Puritans, such as John Milton, who wrote pamphlets defending freeborn rights and tyrannicide (regicide). He also attempted to make divorce easier. After 1689, the whigs then had political supremacy; famous whigs include Daniel Defoe and political Jonathan Swift. These were at the cutting-edge of culture in their day. A tract by the whigs named "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" (1709) circulated and it was a thoroughly democratic document seeing how all rights of kings derive from the will of the people (this idea is called "the consent of the governed" and is written about in Locke, to the Declaration of Independence. Thus, popular dissatisfaction justifies revolution).

Theoretically, we see the idea of social contract espoused by Hobbes (1651), which influences Locke (1689) and later, Rousseau (1762). The social contract sees that the state of nature (what Hobbes and Locke refer to as War, but Rousseau declines to), is different from the state of society (e.g. civil society), the first order of which is the protection of rights by the protection of property. Now, Locke apparently sees it twofold; in nature, property may be claimed and thus rightfully acquired by labour, but it may not be socially recognised until many people cooperate to protect their own property. Locke writes that any attempt to subvert the rights of another places one in a state of war with them, and thus one may aggress against aggressors (e.g. defense). War here is regarded in a Shakespearean manner of all being fair, which differs from later ideas, such as in the Geneva convention, that War itself has laws. Rousseau may be credited with this since he views War as a political activity amongst states, not individuals, and so, War is legally contracted by declaration. We may regard the origin of civil society thus as the means to protect property, with one's property beginning in oneself (e.g. the body). Thus, the liberal view is that the individual is legally protected against aggression by its status as property (this is not a new theory exactly, since humans have always been treated as property, and so may be alienated as such). Liberalism then, we can basically say, is the logic of private property - which differs much from Marxism's goals (but of course, you are not obliged to be a Marxist either).

Now, political liberalism (e.g. democracy, republicanism) are not modern concepts, but are ancient; democracy is Greek, Republicanism is Roman. Rousseau speaks upon types of Republics, seeing that a government is rightfully constituted by a people based on their "general will", which is thus politically sovereign. Thus, if a people prefer it, a monarchy may serve them well. Kant later says that forms of government are graded upon a people's collective reason. A simple people for example, have monarchies, while an advanced people, prefer democracies. As yet, Kant places exception to the Sovereign, who he sees has exception to the law, so as to not be subject (thw idea that all people ought to be conditioned by the law is called "the rule of law" and is present as early as Coke's "Petition of Right", 1628). In elaborating on this, we must discuss Montisqueau (1748), who establishes the logic of a tripartite state (executive, legislative and judiciary), which he bases off the British model (e.g. crown, house of commons, house of lords). This of course is wildly influential, being the basis of the American "separation of powers" (I would claim that the US is a constitutional monarchy, not a republic, since although laws are passed by the house, they may be denied by the senate and if passed, they are to be signed by the executive. Even though the UK has a crown, it is still more directly democratic, since the Prime Minister is sovereign head of the legislative branch - what is equivalent to the Speaker of the House in the US).

The separation of powers features in Hegel's Philosophy of Right, as a final logic of government, by a constitutional monarchy. Effectively, where powers are separated, one branch gains supremacy over another. We see this with the Magna Carta (1215), which pressed for a "counsel" or parliament to mediate decision-making, which eventually became the parliament which we still see today. The push for parliaments to mediate sovereign power by a legislative branch is a universal tendency in liberal movements of history. So then, liberalism we may further write, is the supremacy of the legislative branch of government (which primarily concerns protection of property). I would further state that all revolutions are in effect, legal re-constitutions.

So, Liberalism is a political ideal of self-governed property owners (liberty, equality, fraternity). The reason people might disagree is because they disagree with the category of property as such - which I regard as contradictory (and thus communists always try to sneak the logic of property back into their supposed propertyless utopia). Property is the basis of civil society and is the foundation of justice.

>>2786166
Impessive, very nice.

How would a trade between two people work in socialism and/or communism?

Communism historically killed millions of people. Isnt it dangerous to just try it again?

>>2786166
>Property is the basis of civil society and is the foundation of justice.
Libtard detected. I'm going to rape you to death. The only standard any society should aspire towards is justice. Private property is in contradiction to justice.

>>2787355
>Private property is in contradiction to justice.
Justice as defined by Aristotle is reciprocity; it is the owing of a man what he deserves. This can only be quantified in relation to property; thus, if a capitalist "exploits" labour, he is a thief and the labourer ought to be compensated. Justice then concerns the rights of property, where all crimes are trespasses against property.

>>2786166
If you wrote this yourself, respect.


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