Class is not the primary contradiction.
1: Climate change
Why? Existential threat to all of humanity. On a strict time limit.
2: Imperialism
Why? Countries can't have their own 1917 (Socialist Revolution) until they have their own 1776 (Bourgeois sovereignty).
3: Class struggle
4: idpol/disabled struggles (basically just a mop-up after global socialism is achieved)
>>2759242>1: Climate change>Why? Existential threat to all of humanity. On a strict time limit.Okay genius, and what exactly is climate change being fuelled by?
>>2759246>hat exactly is climate change being fuelled by?not
merely capitalism, but the development of productive forces under
any mode of production beyond the environmental sustainability of those productive forces by the biosphere.
>>2759246Colonialism of indigenous peoples.
>>2759246Not enough bison.
>>2759254you are describing a more primitive contradiction between society and nature. class is the primary contradiction within society dictating how it relates to nature. that is why the current specific episode of extreme climate change we are living through is primarily the result of the specific class society which produced it, namely bourgeois society. imperialism can be described in similar terms, but it can by no means be naturalized in the way climate can, as it is purely a result of class society.
>>2759282hunter gathering as a mode of production can't sustain billions of people concurrently without some level of small scale industrial supplementation.
>>2759276even if class society were abolished, socialism/communism is premised on having EVEN GREATER productive forces than capitalism. Part of the entire critique of political economy is that capitalism has crises of falling rates of profit from productive forces making commodities too cheap. To solve this capitalists kill workers and destroy productive forces in imperialist wars. But in a society without classes or profit, the falling rate of profit would no longer be a leash on the productive forces, the productive forces would be free to multiply
far beyond what could be sustained by Earth without incurring mass extinction, habitat collapse, extreme temperatures, extreme weather events, etc. Hence the statement that
> the development of productive forces under any mode of production beyond the environmental sustainabilityis the chief problem.
>>2759254>not merely capitalism, but the development of productive forces under any mode of production beyond the environmental sustainability of those productive forces by the biosphere.Agriculture was an response when hunting and gathering became unsustainable to environment to support the population within the limits set by the hunter gatherer mode of production. Humans differ from other animals that no other creature actively creates it's own environment like humans do. It's not any mode of production beyond environmental sustainability, but merely liberal capitalism that has become unsustainable to nature and human society. If you think merely terms of "nature" then even preindustrial agriculture was unsustainable mode of production.
Fuck libs, fuck degrowth fags, fuck "green" ideology.
>>2759312Hunter-gatherer societies were also unsustainable. Human migration was accompanied by extinction of many species and in many cases even ecosystem collapse, like in Australia. Most hunter-gatherer populations went to a lower quality of life after megafauna went extinct.
>>2759312>no other creature actively creates it's own environment like humans dobeavers build dams. birds build nests. many creatures make their own environment, humans just do it in a highly abstracted, long-term-planned, and organized way.
>Fuck libs, fuck degrowth fags, fuck "green" ideology.see
>>2759284
<even if class society were abolished, socialism/communism is premised on having EVEN GREATER productive forces than capitalism. Part of the entire critique of political economy is that capitalism has crises of falling rates of profit from productive forces making commodities too cheap. To solve this capitalists kill workers and destroy productive forces in imperialist wars. But in a society without classes or profit, the falling rate of profit would no longer be a leash on the productive forces, the productive forces would be free to multiply far beyond what could be sustained by Earth without incurring mass extinction, habitat collapse, extreme temperatures, extreme weather events, etc. Hence the statement that the development of productive forces under any mode of production beyond the environmental sustainability is the chief problem.you are part of the problem because you imagine that infinite expansion of productive forces is not limited by environmental sustainability. You cry "green fags!!!! libs!!!!" as a mask for your lack of real idea of how to fix this sooner rather than later. Or maybe you know it's a problem and you don't care because you think you'll be dead and it'll be the future peoples' problem to deal with. idk.
Environmentalists became irrelevant the moment the cold war demanded militarism. And all their billionaire philantropy slush funds, for activism, dried up. Now you can be a schizo shouting into the void which nobody ever listens to, or you can become a think tank creature like Amnesty or GreenPeace.
The other kind, will eventually have to merge with labor advocacy and drop liberalism and become political.
Either way, Greta's old chums are dead in the water now.
>>2759323I shove porkies into a mass grave, then drag and mass execute the greefag tree hugging libs at the edge of the same pit. I will force organic growers to use fertilizers and GMO crops. I will smash the beaver dams and build, not hydroelectric power, but nuclear power stations their their place. World hunger will be solved. Energy production will be 10000x fold from what it's now. Humanity will end up being 100 billion and span the solar system.
>>2759347>i have infinite resources and can do whatever i want with no repercussionsmagical thinking
>>2759242Please kill yourself you stupid liberal hippie, I am being 100% serious, your life has zero purpose.
Degrowth fags: the solution isn't in technology, we must reduce third world populations.
China: develops cheap sustainable energy production and storage
Degrowth fags: why are you oversupplying the green energy production market?
>>2759284>But in a society without classes or profit, the falling rate of profit would no longer be a leash on the productive forces, the productive forces would be free to multiply far beyond what could be sustained by EarthWhy would a society without the need for profit off labour need to multiply the production of goods and services beyond what could be sustained by Earth?
Moron
>>2759350>Achually universe doesn't have infinite energy and resources.For any human civilization relevant timescale it does, it's just a matter of progressing enough to getting accesses to it all. Humanity only loses and gets it "repercussions" shoved into it's face if it refuses to play the game. Humanity literally progressed itself out of extinction level events multiple times through the advance of productive forces. Your idea of humanity living in a "finite resource box" set by mother earth, only exists it your lib-pilled brain that assumes amerimutt lead post-soviet financial capitalism as the past, present and eternity. Now stfu.
>>2759242>bourgeois sovereignty >anti-imperialismDo you think capitalism is a national phenomenon? If not, think for a second about its implications for national sovereignty
>>2759352stop falling for rightoid memes.
- germany isn't constructing any new coal plants
- the only tokenistic reason that coal generation (temporarily) increased is because gas prices increased following the russia-ukraine war, so some idled coal plants were brought back online. most are now shut down again.
- germany is still committed to phase out all coal plants by 2038
- in 2025, solar generation overtook coal generation, and coal generation is at its lowest level in decades. (contra what pro-nuclear shills say.) wind-power is germany's single largest energy source.
- looking outside europe to somewhere like pakistan, you can watch in real time as solar power skyrockets because - unlike in somewhere like germany where you have to an adapt an existing grid and get into tedious politicking - in a developing country, solar is now so dirt cheap that people are just buying their own panels and installing them without relying on central authority. solar is now pakistan's single largest electricity source!
one can, obviously, credit china for manufacturing all the cheap panels, but one should also be fair and credit the market mechanism for driving adoption elsewhere. pakistan isn't buying solar because it's non-polluting or because they're best pals with china, they're doing it because it's cheap! the area where the west has blundered is to make it expensive and tedious to bolt solar panels to your own home!
plus opaque electricity pricing schemes and bizarre cross-subsidies. >>2759362Not super familiar with what is being said in the degrowth movement right now but third world genocide sounds more collapsologist (or billionaire) talk, afaik the degrowthers are more focused on the first world giving up treats as that's where the economy is big, they're still idealists blindsided by imperialism though
>>2759415total wind death. nvclear is the future. in 2050 under global chynese aes, each citizen gets a nuke
>>2759242Class is the primary contradiction.
BUT
It must be intended in a wider way than how Marx originally intended it.
Class is a group of people which share a common trait and therefore have a common interest.
Bourgeoisie is a class…so are Men, Asians, Muslims, or Liberals.
Relations to the means of production are not the only cause of class distinction. Every human distinction can be a cause of class distinction.
Marx's greatest error was thinking sovrastructure is simply a reflex of structure, when in reality both can influence each other.
TLDR: Frankfurt school and Gramsci were right
>>2759283Yeah a history of famines shows this well enough, we exploded as a population once we solved famines.
Hunter gatherers work fine and sustainably in tribal communities free of interference as is evidenced by the parallel continued survival of a few tribes like this to the modern age.
>>2759460the whole problem is that people apply this false dichotomy that either we have good things and die, or have terrible things and save the planet or some shit, we can save earth without giving up (the vast majority of) luxuries, we just have to do things in a different way
>>2759456>so are Men, Asians, Muslims, or Liberals.
>Relations to the means of production are not the only cause of class distinctionYou are retarded.
>>2759415>one can, obviously, credit china for manufacturing all the cheap panelsI will. Westoids hate that green tech is cheap and that third world countries can now adopt it.
https://www.dw.com/en/from-solar-to-evs-how-china-is-overproducing-green-tech/a-68782157There would be no solar boom in Pakistan if green Germany had it their way. The point of western environmentalism is to use talk of the environment as a tool to further kick the rest of the world while it's down and extract superprofits. Now that it's clear this isn't working, western media went back to their natural state of warmongering.
contradiction.
>1: Climate change
<Tied to class
>2: Imperialism
<Tied to class
>3: Class struggle
<Tied to class
>4: idpol/disabled struggles (basically just a mop-up after global socialism is achieved)
<Tied to class
>>2759242Looking at things in terms of contradictions is dialectical materialist woo. There are no primary contradictions, not class not anything else. However, the environmental crisis is the major existential crisis to all life. The primary problem is the problem of technology produced by industrial capitalism which is destroying biological life.
>>2759282It is very easy for honkies to dismiss air conditioning as a luxury. Not so much if you live in the tropic or middle east where heat wave will literally make you unable to function. Down here air conditioning is as important during peak heat seasons as heating elements are for you people during winter
>>2759477Wrong. You say class struggle is class struggle. Imperialism cannot be tied to class. Imperialism is class. Imperialism is highest form of class struggle, highest system of exploitation. Your mop-up cope is revisionist nonsense.
>>2759498Or maybe you move to places humans are actually meant to live, you know? Places that actively support agriculture
>>2759490Its not an internal contradiction at all. For capitalism, biological life is inherently disposable and taken to its logical extreme this leads to extinction. There's no internal tension between opposites here. Turning the Earth into a dustbowl is one of the aims of capitalism. Diamat is unnecessary nonsense.
>>2759547What’s next? You gonna call him reddit? Does that make you feel good? Feel big?
>>2759552what would make me feel good was if actual retards like you would stop posting.
>>2759524Yes, lets tell ~2 billion Indians, Bangladeshis, Gulf Arabs, Indonesians, etc that we should stuff ourselves to fairer climates, this will definitely not create literal hive cities that would need air conditionings anyway because you can't circulate air in highly dense apartments otherwise
>>2759584We should actually live in hive cities. There's no point with cars and driving everywhere.
>>2759588Hell is other people
>>2759471Sure thing, anarkiddie
>>2759498>honkies>down hereAmerican. Can tell. US people live in large mansion with A/C. Global south people live in hut without A/C. American live in unsustainable luxury. Latin American and African live in sustainable proletarian dwellings.
>>2759654
You are epstein.
>>2759621>>2759678Shut up bot, you're a schizo retard re-posting the same bullshit over and over.
>>2759242>imperialism in a fully developed capitalist world>climate change divorced from class struggle itselfabsolutely braindead retard lol
>>2760146
oh my fucking god
>>2759254>under any mode of productionnot under communism. read up on planning
>>2759254Dengoids/Maupinites are wrong. Degrowthers are right.
In communism we should aim to lower humanity's overall use and production of resources and if this requires austerity and population control so be it.
>>2759242 (and everyone else)
marx never used the phrase "primary contradiction," that langauge comes froms mao zedong.
if you read marx, the fundemental
contradiction is actually between the forces of productions and the relations of production, whereas class
struggle is the visible active form of conflict that arises from the structural contradiction between FoP and RoP. do not conflate struggle, which is a historical movement of society, with contradiction, which is objective structural tension embedded in the system. marx does not equate contradiction = struggle
btw, i am literally the only marxist on this website, the same way when kierkegaard, a true christian, proclaimed there is no christians in christendom
>>2760578attributing
>primary contradictionto marx has the same vibe as leftoids claiming marx developed dialectical materialism
>>2759415>but one should also be fair and credit the market mechanism for driving adoption elsewhere.why are these straight up neoliberals popping up here recently, that solars are cheap is beccause of chinese manufacturing not market mechanism you dumb idiot
>>2760863Is it not true that China had "corporate Darwinism" to make their national champions? Sounds like the market working its magic.
>>2760710even with the way mao uses the term contradiction e.g., primary (principal) contradiction and secondary contradiction, class is not the principal contradiction in every historical situation. for instance, in periods where revolution requires unity (e.g., against fascists or foreign invaders), the primary contradiction within the revolutionary camp (class struggle) becomes secondary. mao treats primary contradiction as dynamic and context-sensitive.
>>2760561Kill yourself ecofash
>>2761070Treatlerite detected.
>>2761078I imagine myself dumping your entire body un acid.
>>2760561>In communism we should aim to lower humanity's overall use and production of resources This is exactly what economic growth is. More is created with less. Hunter-gatherer or feudal like economical structures are incredibly wasteful.
>>2761079>MexiKKKan thinking about dumping people in acidClassic.
>>2761155Meds now autist with parasocial relationships
>>2761158Put down the burger with jalapeno, treatlerite lopez
>>2760578>btw, i am literally the only marxist on this website, the same way when kierkegaard, a true christian, proclaimed there is no christians in christendomok but nobody cares about you sucking yourself off when climate change imposes a time limit, which you didn't even address, nerd
>>2761162I will piss on your corpse youu fucking hippie subhuman
>>2760863if china mass-manufactured solar panels and warehoused them, solar wouldn't be cheap. china mass manufacturing them and selling them (at a profit!) on the global market is the market mechanism in action, you dribbling moron. they are one and the same. a market doesn't stop being a market just because the seller is part of the based department.
>>2759312>>2759362>>2759359>>2760329Morons who think that AES countries wouldn't despoil the planet have forgotten about the tragedy of the Aral Sea. No amount of planning, aside from degrowth planning that limits our resource use and yes, standard of living. Degrowth is also the only framework that actually attacks extractivism and the constant production of plastic junk at the source.
>>2759328GreenPeace is based if only because they use illegalism.
>>2759477/thread
Sadly in recent years, this site has been pozzed to oblivion.
>>2762090The Aral Sea is one shining example of how state socialism will lead to ecological disaster in the name of "unleashing the productive forces."
>>2762090>AES countries Stopped reading there
You are fucking stupid
>>2762959 you are a person who will always be without real life examples because nothing will ever qualify in your opinion
>>2762090I don't give a fuck about the aral sea. Nobody here does.
Only western liberal ecofascists and anticommunists handwring about it.
t kazakh
>>2763023>no answer figured
>>2759242Oh give it a rest already libtard, no one gives a single shit. The best thing for the climate is an efficient economy where the population that live in said climate and are affected by it are stakeholders in it, yes?
Then support that. And y'know, for other reasons, like working class solidarity and equality and justice and even the good old pursuit of happiness or whatever.
>>2763286so you admit he beat you then
>>2762989don't be a retard, the USSR cared since they tried to do a remediation project until they realized they were too broke, people talk about it here because there is a lot of discussions about so called AES countries, but in the end you can just add it to the massive pile of disasters break neck industrialization brought on everywhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_environmental_disasters >>2759246>Okay genius, and what exactly is climate change being fuelled by?Climate change is fueled by climate change. This isn't a tautology, it's a cheeky way of describing feedback loops.
When you zoom out chronologically, climate is probably one of the least well-understood aspects of science. The fact is that the earth is much older than recorded history, we're going off of ice core samples here, not nuanced weather data. That's why for the last fifty years the climate change argument swung between "global warming" and "global cooling" before settling on "climate change". Because we don't really know what the net effect of industry is on the climate, we're just sure it's impacting it somehow!
Greenhouse gasses go up into the atmosphere, heating the air up. But those gasses also cause clouds to form, creating rain, cooling the earth down. Is it a net warming or cooling effect, or do they cancel each other out? The answer is a great big "it probably depends on where on earth we're talking about". And of course, that regional effect interacts with the regions around it, because the earth isn't one big static system, it's a dynamic system made out of dynamic systems.
>>2761227Dank meme. Per the content of your post, you should do some research on acid rain, what's been done about it in the last 30 years, and how prevalent it is. Growing up in the 90s, learning what's been done about it was a real hopepill for me.
>>2763023OP's premise is that climate change is a more pressing matter, not that the west didn't back the IRGC.
>>2762989well the aral sea debunks your idea that a planned economy is necessarily better for the planet. Only degrowth is the answer. Produce less
The primary contradiction is whether you can see why kids like the taste of Cinnamon Toast Crunch
>>2759242How is class not the primary contradiction when class is tied to why these are consistent problems?
Like proles care about the environment, bourgeosis dont and destroys the planet for profit, and for decades we've been living understood of upcoming crisis of global warming, and we failed to stop it.
>>2762989based and productive forces pilled
>>2759242Greta has been discrediting protests and occupying the political scene since day one.
She makes an excellent controlled oppositional pawn which prevents the people from demanding what they need.
The eradication of false competition which works against the people's interests is a step in removing the establishment, even capturing and holding these government pawns hostage is more reasonable than joining them.
Only no kings protests are viable.
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