/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2762063
I don't see any reference to that in the OP but since you asked, we have a banned anon who used to go by the name "the real iron felix" named after felix dzherzhinski of the bolshevik cheka. he became infamous for (among other things) publishing covert action articles under his real name with his head photo attached, accusing anons of doxxing him, even though he basically doxxed himself, encouraging anons to attack critical infrastructure, accusing anons of being ukrainian neo nazis and gangstalking him, cumming on a photgraph of putin and uploading it, calling CPUSA and DSA members fascist, claiming to have armed cadres at his command, threatening to shoot anon (usuing the catcphrase "you are nothing but target practice for our cadres), saying the vast majority of Americans are knowingly, willingly, and gleefully collaborating in imperialism and being particularly obsessed with CPUSAnon, replying to every one of his posts with rants about killing millions of brown people in exchange for funko pops. He makes a point of being abrasive as an agitational strategy I guess. I think what is very bizarre about his behavior is he spends a lot of his free time talking to a community he regards as almost entirely fascist, while simultaneously doxxing himself to them and encouraging them to take communist action.

I am the real iron felix

>>2761845
and maybe psychological makeup and common culture are interchangeable in the context of the thread?

>>2761826
hes mega based and his writing is so clear and straight forward compared to others. its like mao but without the weird phrasing just plain and to the point

>>2762402
Not really, no. Some have been using them interchangeably, but Stalin (correctly) doesn't use them interchangeably. The common culture emerges from a shared "psychological make-up" (social attitudes), which in turn emerges from shared conditions and social relations.

>>2762005
>I wrote my thesis on nations
>a nation like New Afrika

>>2761247
>there are debates about the "black nation" in america because its not geographically contiguous and about the "native nation" because they dont have a common language.
thoughts? i read about it in erol
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-8/index.htm#aanq

>>2762411
Are you singling out New Afrika to imply it isn't a nation? It still very much fits the definition outlined by Stalin, as correctly argued in many of the sources within the page you linked (for example by the Black Worker's Congress and Congress of Afrikan People).
>thoughts? i read about it in erol
What exactly did you read in erol? I find it very annoying when people link pages like this, or some inane reading list, as if it's supposed to tell us anything about what they understand or what their position is.

>>2762465
>Are you singling out New Afrika to imply it isn't a nation?
no? i even said "native nation" too
>What exactly did you read in erol?
it was years ago. and it was more about indigenous not being a nation because they speak diff languages. but new afrika isnt geographically continuous either, nor does it have a distinct economic life from america.
>as if it's supposed to tell us anything about what they understand or what their position is.
i dont really have one. if people want to organize around a black nation i think thats good.

my position from upthread
>does that mean stalin was wrong? no, it just means the material conditions in america are not the same as in the ussr.

meaning: i dont think all four are necessary to constitute a nation but you gotta have most of them and some kind special circumstance. stalin really just made it four because jews were being reactionary

>>2762471
>no? i even said "native nation" too
My apologies then, it can be difficult to follow who's saying what in some of these threads.
>it was more about indigenous not being a nation because they speak diff languages.
It sounds like whoever was making that argument was constructing something of a strawman, as I have never heard a Communist organization argue that there is a singular Indian nation. There are many, which share a struggle and can only win self-determination as a united pan-indigenous movement.
>but new afrika isnt geographically continuous either
Yes, it is. I don't understand where this assertion comes from. The Black Belt still very much exists as a distinct and contiguous region in the South. Look at a county-by-county map of where Black folks live in the US and you will see it traced out before your eyes.
>nor does it have a distinct economic life from america.
Only if your definition of "distinct" is to mean "entirely separate", which is not what Stalin meant in his original definition. This isn't the first time I've come across this claim and by its logic no nations exist in the world at all, as imperialism has bound all nations together in some way. The bourgeoisie of oppressor nations bind and warp the national bourgeoisies of subject nations to their interests. But nations do exist and retain their character in spite of and because of this process. Some are warped into compradors and bureaucrats, others are dispossessed and de-classed, and others vacillate opportunistically between oppressor and oppressed interests. We can see this just as surely in the Black, New Afrikan nation today. Listen to Claudia Jones, who laid Stalin's meaning out plainly:
>Have the Negro people a stable community of economic life? First, let us discuss what is meant by a common economic life. It is sometimes said that people have a common economic life when they make their living in the same way—they are all sharecroppers, or they are all workers. Actually, a common economic life with reference to a nation or community under capitalism means that the nation or community has within it the class and social relations that characterize society; it has capitalists, workers, farmers, and intellectuals, ranged according to their position in the production relations. In this case it means that a Negro must be able to hire a Negro, buy from a Negro, sell to a Negro, service a Negro.
>…
>Such class stratification exists among the Negro people in the Black Belt. There is a Negro bourgeoisie. It is not an industrial bourgeoisie. It is not a big bourgeoisie; the bourgeoisie of an oppressed nation never is; it is one of the results of national oppression that the bourgeoisie of the oppressed nations is retarded by the oppressors. The market of the Negro bourgeoisie is founded upon Jim-Crowism; it functions chiefly in life insurance, banking, and real estate. Its leadership among the Negro people is reflected in an ideology—petty-bourgeois nationalism, whose main purpose is to mobilize the Negro masses under its own influence.
Additionally, in one of the articles in the erol page you linked:
>The Black Bourgeoisie is stunted by imperialism, and kept from reaching the level of some of their U.S. (white) counterparts, but there is still an economic cohesion in the Black Nation based on a developed class structure with a Black market “served”, and exploited by a Black Bourgeoisie. Though it is true N.C. Mutual cannot hire as many wage workers or exploit as many blacks as Prudential… penetration of 3rd World Nations by imperialism is not unique with the Black Belt. And even with employment by the imperialists the wage level and the standard of living is lowest among Blacks, and especially in the Black Belt, where all the workers wages are pitifully depressed by the national oppression of the Black Belt.

>>2762832
Can you explain more about New Afrika? I'm not American so I don't know the conditions very well but I don't really understand how black people in the USA are victims of imperialism for example, when they make on average more money than people in my (first world) country do. It also seems a bit weird to base a country off of a racial group. I'm not denying it exists though because that is up to the people themselves there, I just kind of view it the same as like California or Texas, which aren't inherently anti-imperialist or anything.

New AfriKKKa is fascist.

>>2762832
yeah thats good i agree with you i just wanted to know since you said you study it. its usually reactionary shitheads who try to do this. the kind of people who think that landback is white genocide and concern troll about islamic ethnic cleansing the jews while pretending to be communist and whining about indigenous casino landlords being bourgeoisie whenever I bring up AIM or people like Nick Estes. recently heard some iranian commies talking about landback in the context of anti-imperialism and how their struggles are connected. none of us are free till all of us are. some people really get it and some just never will

>>2762848
Really highlights how meaningless and liberal whining about "infighting" and "purity" is when I slightly misunderstand an anon and folks frame it like we're arguing.

>>2762854
>I don't really understand how black people in the USA are victims of imperialism for example, when they make on average more money than people in my (first world) country do.
Firstly, averages aren't a class analysis. You are conflating the wages of Black compradors, bureaucrats, proletarians, and prisoners into a singular statistic. I acknowledge that you seem to be coming at this in good faith, and I appreciate that, but that's already an un-Marxist way of looking at this. These strata are going to have very different existences, especially as a nation within an imperial core nation.

That being said, a basic relationship all these strata share to the white bourgeoisie in the US is one of subservience. Black folks are elevated to compradors insofar as they serve the interests of white capital and are more limited than ever in their ability to independently maneuver, despite being more wealthy than ever on paper. Same goes for bureaucrats. Meanwhile Black proletarians were the first fired and forced into semi-proletarian and lumpen positions when the US exported its productive industry (everything but final assembly) to the third world. What productive industry remains is increasingly being performed by prison slave labor, which is disproportionately Black in composition. The entire prison industry is highly concentrated in and around New Afrika, with 6 of the 10 highest-population max security federal penitentiaries in the US being located in the South. It's also no coincidence that Corrections Corporation of America is operating principally out of the South and what used to be Mexico (see pic).

>It also seems a bit weird to base a country off of a racial group.
That's not what's being argued anywhere. Nobody is basing a country off of a racial group. New Afrika is a nation in the Marxist sense. That being the case, like all nations their right to self-determination up to and including secession must be enshrined by the revolution. This doesn't mean, as racists and chauvinists dishonestly allege, that this means forming a Black ethnostate. Anyone telling you this is the position of any Communist group is straight-up lying to you, or are themselves deceived.

>I just kind of view it the same as like California or Texas
Neither California nor Texas are nations in the Marxist sense. They are completely unlike New Afrika, more akin to Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Lebanon.

>>2762854
Wrong. You use nominal wage to justify genocide of afrikans. Afrikan nominal wage is 8% higher, yet english cost of living is 23% less. English arent in genocide prisons, etc. english are bourgeois and afrikan are proletarian.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2025/09/median-household-income.html
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2024
https://www.moneycorp.com/en-gb/news-hub/cost-of-living-in-us-vs-uk/

>>2762935
Thirdies (as third worldist) are fucking stupid, African overlords are proletarians according to this stupid fuck.

behold the third worldist proletarian

>>2762402
They're not. Why would you even try to make this cope?

>>2762930
I'm just going to shut up about this because it is a national struggle which I do not know about so anything I say about it will just end up being ignorant. I wish other people would shut up about national struggles they don't know about as well.

>>2763102
>I wish other people would shut up about national struggles they don't know about as well.
I appreciate you. Lotta people on this site don't know when to shut up in general.

>>2760407
Okay, now apply this to Israel.

>>2763162
Already ahead of you, ultroid

>>2763168
has national liberation gone to far sisters?

>>2763168
when multipolarism goes wrong

>>2763171
On one hand they are slaughtering thousands but on the other hand there's wholesome volkskibbutz and free healthcare sweaty. Who can truly judge?

>>2762930
>What productive industry remains
Why does this myth persist so heavily? All the deindustrializing happened up north and for the last 20 years the manufacturing weight of america, along with the rest of the economy, is swinging down south to states like Alabama Texas and Florida. I think you have an outdated understanding of american conditions

>A big missing part of the story: Interstate competition. The Rust Belt’s manufacturing decline isn’t primarily about jobs going to Mexico. It’s about jobs going to Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia and Tennessee.

>In 1992, there was not a single auto plant in Alabama. Today, Alabama is the No. 1 auto-exporting state, producing more than 1 million vehicles a year.

>Despite the economic growth, Southern states have built so much housing that they kept costs from becoming unaffordable. Last year, both North Carolina and South Carolina each built more than four times as much new housing per capita as Massachusetts, according to U.S. census data. Florida, Georgia, Texas, Tennessee, South Carolina and North Carolina, all built more housing per capita than all of Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, California, New York and Massachusetts. That is not just a 2024 dynamic. That is true for every single year going all the way back to 1993.
https://archive.ph/VAM9a

>>2763180
They know the retarded slaves in the south will not ever betray their "betters".

I always take "economic life" to mean something like caste, where a whole ethnic group is also class into itself. For example Eastern European Jews were mostly merchants, artisans etc' and you wouldn't find peasants or nobles among them.
Otherwise this quote doesn't make sense. A merchant would obviously have a different mindset from worker (even if they are from the same nation).

>>2763373
Business naturally tends to gravitate towards regions with comparatively cheaper labor, thats largely the reason. porky also likes lack of unions, I work in SC and was told in new hire training that any talk of unions or organizing was grounds for immediate termination. northern states are over three times more unionized

>>2763413
Global South
US South
United in Dixiebolshevism or something

>>2763180
It persists because it's not a myth. It's kind of amazing to link something like this as if it should be a surprise to me. Your view of industry is conflating different steps and forms of manufacturing, and it's telling that you ignored the parenthetical right before the sentence you quoted:
>everything but final assembly
The manufacturing that remains in the US, including the south, is principally the least productive part of the process: final assembly. What little real productive manufacturing that remains (which is absolutely also in the South) makes heavy use of enslaved prisoners and migrant workers, which are the only groups that can be paid third world rates (or close to them). Now, it's not a bad thing to emphasize that what production is left in the US is also concentrated in the Black Belt and the industrial farms of the Chican@ homeland (a sign of where the lowest and most exploited workers actually exist), but it is undeniable that the global direction of modern decaying imperialism (principally expressed as neocolonialism today) is toward higher and deeper forms of exploitation in the third world in a desperate bid to stave off increasing crises and declining rates of real profit.

As part of "development" the foundries and mines which already existed in third world countries are being augmented with manufacturing plants and other facilities where parts can be constructed for final assembly in the first world, an expansion of the pre-existing condition where raw materials were exported for refinement and manufacturing in the first world. As Marxists we understand that labor is what produces value in a given commodity, and in general the most laborious work is what puts the most value in a given product. Thus the crisis in industrial labor in the US: where the less-productive stages of the manufacturing process cannot profitably hire the whole population of people who expect to work in it at the wages they expect. In such a crisis, Black labor is the first thrown out in order to sustain the wages of everyone else, but this isn't enough. US capital is in a position where it must either A: magically reverse what the big bourgeoisie needs to survive — which the fascists and imperialists claim to be doing by supposedly moving "jobs" back to the States — or B: intensify attacks on their rivals and deepen exploitation of what they already influence — which is what they're actually doing — easing tightening profits and enabling inflated wages for the less productive stages of production. Black labor in the Black Belt, rather than being hired back, is being redirected into gig, service, and other highly exploitative and unstable semi-proletarian, semi-lumpen or outright lumpen relations which can further cushion and serve the status of white labor and the white bourgeoisie.

>>2763638
>black labor serves the interest of white labor
echoes of 2012 tumblr over here. its a bummer how thoroughly spooked you are on the race question. try reading Marx sometime that'll sort you right out. Lenin too if you're feeling bold

>>2763917
>Tumblr
Oh please lmao. Try for a moment to imagine a world beyond some goofy fight against "SJWs" and go outside.
>try reading Marx sometime that'll sort you right out. Lenin too if you're feeling bold
The thinking of both these men revolved around investigating the world around them in order to change it. Clearly, neither of those things interest you. The chauvinism of you and so many others on this site would make Marx and Lenin puke.

>>2763945


The left seem very lost. Not just here. They are lost in idealism, useless orthodoxy, and organizations that function as counter-insurgencies. This exists across all camps. In the USA most Marxist Leninists, or Anarchists, and anything in between are liberal idealists. Neither respective end of the left seems to grasp theory the way their ancient counterparts did, which is pathetic. Yet, they argue, and in these arguments they both show their idealism quite frequently. For instance, I suggested to an edgy Anarchist who was barely an organizer and more of a fringe follower that Cuba had some success and he goes HAHAHAHAH TANKIE! Then, I attempt to mention that most American leftist orgs are captured and function as counter-insurgencies under neo-liberalism, and a Marxist-Leninist screams, YOU ARE AN ANARCHIST, SHUT UP AT ONCE! These people are pure idealists, and they get confused at how I seem able to move within contradictions, and why I am compelled to attack organizations that hold "communist" in their organizations name.

it's true. china used to be this giant territory with thousands of completely different languages and cultures, but then under chairman mao it became a nation and now when you go to china everyone just speaks "standard chinese" no matter where you go and all the cultural wrinkles have been perfectly ironed out into a beautiful homogenity. (sarcasm)

>>2763917
> try reading Marx sometime that'll sort you right out. Lenin too if you're feeling bold

maybe you should do a little less reading and do more thinking, or maybe try questioning the things that you read rather than just mindlessly consuming and regurgitating like a pig at a trough.

>>2763917
Maybe you should try actually addressing the points made by your interlocutors instead of coping? Maybe even forming your own counter argument if you're feeling bold

>>2763638
>advancing the slogan of black "national culture"
whatever your good intentions may be, you are an enemy of the proletariat, a supporter of all that is outmoded and connected with caste among the Black people; you are an accomplice of the preachers and the bourgeoisie. On the other hand, those Black Marxists who mingle with the White American, Canadian, Mexican and other workers in international Marxist organisations, and make their contribution towards creating the international culture of the working-class movement - those Blacks uphold the best traditions of Black culture by fighting the slogan of “national culture”.

>>2765908
he's Haitian, why would he suck up to the imperialist entity couping, starving, and sanctioning his country? pay attention before weighing in.

>>2765949
>Working-class democracy contraposes to the nationalist wrangling of the various bourgeois parties over questions of language, etc., the demand for the unconditional unity and complete amalgamation of workers of all nationalities in all working-class organisations—trade union, co-operative, consumers’, educational and all others—in contradistinction to any kind of bourgeois nationalism. Only this type of unity and amalgamation can uphold democracy and defend the interests of the workers against capital—which is already international and is becoming more so—and promote the development of mankind towards a new way of life that is alien to all privileges and all exploitation.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/crnq/1.htm#v20pp72-020

>The question is whether it is permissible for a Marxist, directly or indirectly, to advance the slogan of national culture, or whether he should oppose it by advocating, in all languages, the slogan of workers’ internationalism while “adapting” himself to all local and national features. The significance of the “national culture” slogan is not determined by some petty intellectual’s promise, or good intention, to “interpret” it as “meaning the development through it of an international culture”. It would be puerile subjectivism to look at it in that way. The significance of the slogan of national culture is determined by the objective alignment of all classes in a given country, and in all countries of the world. The national culture of the bourgeoisie is a fact (and, I repeat, the bourgeoisie everywhere enters into deals with the landed proprietors and the clergy).

<Those who seek to serve the proletariat must unite the workers of all nations, and unswervingly fight bourgeois nationalism, domestic and foreign. The place of those who advocate the slogan of national culture is among the nationalist petty bourgeois, not among the Marxists.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/crnq/2.htm#v20pp72-023
Try reading Lenin sometime? Or are the words too complicated

there's no such thing as a nation. the nation is a myth that originated relatively recently in the 19th century when powerful rich imperialists arbitrarily drew lines on maps and then convinced themselves that the maps were the actual territory, that all these lands full of hundreds of different languages and cultures were all now one unified land with one language and one culture. meanwhile the actual people living in these territories were still the same people with all their various languages and traditions but like the emperor's new clothes they were compelled to go along with the charade, sending their kids to school where they are taught the "national language" and the "national culture" which they adopt in public life to conform to the demands of the empire, whole continuing to hold onto their original indigenous language and traditions when they are at home with their family and friends. the united states, which was designed to be a unified nation at the very outset, has in practice failed to be the unified monoculture that it pretends to be, with a quarter of the population not speaking english at home and all kinds of cultural divisions going on, immigrant vs non-immigrant, black vs white, east vs west, north vs south, etc. even in north korea, arguably the most authoritarian and centralized place on earth, people still speak a different language at home than they do in public life, despite it being illegal to do so.

>>2766261
>the nation is a myth that originated relatively recently in the 19th century when powerful rich imperialists
no and double no. it recent but not a myth and not a product of imperialism but regular capitalism. its a concrete phenomena formed by the industrialization and urbanization of capitalism concentrating people into defined territories with related economics.

>>2766371

then why is it when you go to a country like italy, a modern capitalist country, you find all these different cities with their own languages and cultural identities and you never find people who simply identify as "italians" or embrace any sort of unified national identity? why is that in countries like america you have concepts like "americanism" and "anti-americanism" but there doesn't seem to be any talk about "italianism" or "anti-italianism" in italy?

>>2766414
"Simply" does a lot of work here, they do identify as italian, they just also identify as the local region/department/city as well

>>2766414
because nations arent states?

>>2766447
they don't though, i've never heard italians describe themselves as italians, it's always about what town they're from, they don't have a unified national identity like americans and other authoritarian states do. they almost did during the reign of mussoline but then they got sick of his bullshit and killed him and that was the end of italian nationalism.