/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2761245
You stink of Yank, just the liberal Hitlerite types.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup

>>2760407
> and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.
How do you get to have the same psychological make-up? what to do with the people that don't agree with you. Kill them, i'm guessing.

>>2761588
that's what stalin did

>>2761305
>read the rest of the sentence you are quoting, there is a "because" in there.
no its a "since". if you mean "because" why did you say "since". they are different words. do you not choose your words deliberately?
>I am confused by the idea that an entire nation of people have an identifical
i really dont think thats being suggested and i dont know why you do

psychological make-up is an internal part of the subjective aspect of nation being
common culture is the external, objective manifestation(appearance) of the phenomena known as psychological make-up.

psychological make-up can be the same for two different people because hes not talking about identical, but types. such as on imageboards they will have a shared psychology, like how different groups of people have private memes, this is sort of like a micro-culture. in order for them to find humor or enjoyment in esoteric funny images they have to have a common experience and common sense on which to relate. its like that but specific to the concept of a nation.

the mechanism of action is the language territory and economic life. the psychological makeup and culture have a material base in the social reproduction of society, which happens on a territory, facilitated by language, and through economic exchange. like how people living in the same place might have a similar diet music preference and customs and relate to eachother on that basis. so they have that in common, they will have common social norms. that doesnt mean their psychology is identical it means its common.

>>2761408
OP already left the thread. Sorry you're a little too late to YANK the chain lol

>>2760407
this threads needs more Hegel slop
< For Hegel the human being – man – equals self-consciousness. All estrangement of the human being is therefore nothing but estrangement of self-consciousness. The estrangement of self-consciousness is not regarded as an expression – reflected in the realm of knowledge and thought – of the real estrangement of the human being. Instead, the actual estrangement – that which appears real – is according to its innermost, hidden nature (which is only brought to light by philosophy) nothing but the manifestation of the estrangement of the real human essence, of self-consciousness. The science which comprehends this is therefore called phenomenology. All reappropriation of the estranged objective essence appears therefore, as incorporation into self-consciousness: The man who takes hold of his essential being is merely the self-consciousness which takes hold of objective essences. Return of the object into the self is therefore the reappropriation of the object.
Karl Marx Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844 Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy in General https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/hegel.htm

>>2761143
Crazy to me that a guy like Stalin who is often seen as some kind of thug who didn't understand theory could grapple with concepts like this.

>>2761643
nta, but since and because are interchangeable in this context

>>2761826
It's because
>often seen as some kind of thug who didn't understand theory
This is cope from antistalinists.

>>2761846
Him ruling like a despot or being an idiot-genius is also a weird post hoc fabrication. Most of the stuff he enacted (good or bad) were politburo consensus.

>>2761062
The french republicans were correct. To hell with the cloud spirit's tribe and their 17 rivals.

>>2760407
I know I have a reputation of open contempt for everyone here but I'm genuinely happy to answer this. I wrote my thesis on nations and national self-determination, and much of my work on the street is around putting Stalin's ideas into practice.

I think it's easy to overthink "psychological make-up" as more than it is. Essentially what he means is the shared social attitudes emerging from a shared social relation to wider society. This manifests over time in common cultural practices and rituals. In my family's home nation of Haiti this was expressed in the formation of Vodou religious practices, common cuisine (pikliz, soup joumou, etc.), and other shared cultural practices which became binding forces leading up to the revolution, especially among the enslaved and Maroon majority (and mulattoes to a lesser extent). This does not mean everyone thinks the same. Rather, it means that disparate people bound together and facing the same or similar conditions and social relations (be they oppressive or not) will begin to form a common outlook to the world around them. A Black person in the US generally perceives white supremacy very differently from whites in general, and Black communities have distinct cultural practices from white communities, because these national groups don't share the same relations to the state and its economy historically or presently.

We see this process in the formation of every nation, though as Stalin notes the existence of a common culture does not itself denote the existence of a nation. For instance trans people in the US have distinct cultural practices and outlooks from cis people due to a long history of oppression, but they aren't a nation. It's all the things Stalin listed, together, which denotes a nation. The Haitian nation was historically constituted through the process of enslavement, Maroon resistance, and finally a decade-long revolution with all class strata taking part. It remains a stable community of people, though now with a sizeable diaspora as well. They share a common language in Kreyol, a common homeland — the island of Haiti, share an economic life in that Haitians comprise all class strata (there are bourgeois, proletarian, and peasant Haitians who economically interact consistently), and as we just outlined share a common culture. Thus Haiti is a nation like New Afrika, Ethiopia, Vietnam, or Cuba are nations.

Please let me know if there's anything that needs further clarifying.

>>2761935
sure, but we cannot then pretend that because we share attributes that we are of the same mind; that is Stalin's theoretical flaw, as espoused by OP.

>>2762005
OP returning one more time to say: Thank you, anon.

Who is Felix and why do people keep referencing him?

>>2762063
I don't see any reference to that in the OP but since you asked, we have a banned anon who used to go by the name "the real iron felix" named after felix dzherzhinski of the bolshevik cheka. he became infamous for (among other things) publishing covert action articles under his real name with his head photo attached, accusing anons of doxxing him, even though he basically doxxed himself, encouraging anons to attack critical infrastructure, accusing anons of being ukrainian neo nazis and gangstalking him, cumming on a photgraph of putin and uploading it, calling CPUSA and DSA members fascist, claiming to have armed cadres at his command, threatening to shoot anon (usuing the catcphrase "you are nothing but target practice for our cadres), saying the vast majority of Americans are knowingly, willingly, and gleefully collaborating in imperialism and being particularly obsessed with CPUSAnon, replying to every one of his posts with rants about killing millions of brown people in exchange for funko pops. He makes a point of being abrasive as an agitational strategy I guess. I think what is very bizarre about his behavior is he spends a lot of his free time talking to a community he regards as almost entirely fascist, while simultaneously doxxing himself to them and encouraging them to take communist action.

I am the real iron felix

>>2761845
and maybe psychological makeup and common culture are interchangeable in the context of the thread?

>>2761826
hes mega based and his writing is so clear and straight forward compared to others. its like mao but without the weird phrasing just plain and to the point

>>2762402
Not really, no. Some have been using them interchangeably, but Stalin (correctly) doesn't use them interchangeably. The common culture emerges from a shared "psychological make-up" (social attitudes), which in turn emerges from shared conditions and social relations.

>>2762005
>I wrote my thesis on nations
>a nation like New Afrika

>>2761247
>there are debates about the "black nation" in america because its not geographically contiguous and about the "native nation" because they dont have a common language.
thoughts? i read about it in erol
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-8/index.htm#aanq

>>2762411
Are you singling out New Afrika to imply it isn't a nation? It still very much fits the definition outlined by Stalin, as correctly argued in many of the sources within the page you linked (for example by the Black Worker's Congress and Congress of Afrikan People).
>thoughts? i read about it in erol
What exactly did you read in erol? I find it very annoying when people link pages like this, or some inane reading list, as if it's supposed to tell us anything about what they understand or what their position is.

>>2762465
>Are you singling out New Afrika to imply it isn't a nation?
no? i even said "native nation" too
>What exactly did you read in erol?
it was years ago. and it was more about indigenous not being a nation because they speak diff languages. but new afrika isnt geographically continuous either, nor does it have a distinct economic life from america.
>as if it's supposed to tell us anything about what they understand or what their position is.
i dont really have one. if people want to organize around a black nation i think thats good.

my position from upthread
>does that mean stalin was wrong? no, it just means the material conditions in america are not the same as in the ussr.

meaning: i dont think all four are necessary to constitute a nation but you gotta have most of them and some kind special circumstance. stalin really just made it four because jews were being reactionary

>>2762471
>no? i even said "native nation" too
My apologies then, it can be difficult to follow who's saying what in some of these threads.
>it was more about indigenous not being a nation because they speak diff languages.
It sounds like whoever was making that argument was constructing something of a strawman, as I have never heard a Communist organization argue that there is a singular Indian nation. There are many, which share a struggle and can only win self-determination as a united pan-indigenous movement.
>but new afrika isnt geographically continuous either
Yes, it is. I don't understand where this assertion comes from. The Black Belt still very much exists as a distinct and contiguous region in the South. Look at a county-by-county map of where Black folks live in the US and you will see it traced out before your eyes.
>nor does it have a distinct economic life from america.
Only if your definition of "distinct" is to mean "entirely separate", which is not what Stalin meant in his original definition. This isn't the first time I've come across this claim and by its logic no nations exist in the world at all, as imperialism has bound all nations together in some way. The bourgeoisie of oppressor nations bind and warp the national bourgeoisies of subject nations to their interests. But nations do exist and retain their character in spite of and because of this process. Some are warped into compradors and bureaucrats, others are dispossessed and de-classed, and others vacillate opportunistically between oppressor and oppressed interests. We can see this just as surely in the Black, New Afrikan nation today. Listen to Claudia Jones, who laid Stalin's meaning out plainly:
>Have the Negro people a stable community of economic life? First, let us discuss what is meant by a common economic life. It is sometimes said that people have a common economic life when they make their living in the same way—they are all sharecroppers, or they are all workers. Actually, a common economic life with reference to a nation or community under capitalism means that the nation or community has within it the class and social relations that characterize society; it has capitalists, workers, farmers, and intellectuals, ranged according to their position in the production relations. In this case it means that a Negro must be able to hire a Negro, buy from a Negro, sell to a Negro, service a Negro.
>…
>Such class stratification exists among the Negro people in the Black Belt. There is a Negro bourgeoisie. It is not an industrial bourgeoisie. It is not a big bourgeoisie; the bourgeoisie of an oppressed nation never is; it is one of the results of national oppression that the bourgeoisie of the oppressed nations is retarded by the oppressors. The market of the Negro bourgeoisie is founded upon Jim-Crowism; it functions chiefly in life insurance, banking, and real estate. Its leadership among the Negro people is reflected in an ideology—petty-bourgeois nationalism, whose main purpose is to mobilize the Negro masses under its own influence.
Additionally, in one of the articles in the erol page you linked:
>The Black Bourgeoisie is stunted by imperialism, and kept from reaching the level of some of their U.S. (white) counterparts, but there is still an economic cohesion in the Black Nation based on a developed class structure with a Black market “served”, and exploited by a Black Bourgeoisie. Though it is true N.C. Mutual cannot hire as many wage workers or exploit as many blacks as Prudential… penetration of 3rd World Nations by imperialism is not unique with the Black Belt. And even with employment by the imperialists the wage level and the standard of living is lowest among Blacks, and especially in the Black Belt, where all the workers wages are pitifully depressed by the national oppression of the Black Belt.

>>2762832
Can you explain more about New Afrika? I'm not American so I don't know the conditions very well but I don't really understand how black people in the USA are victims of imperialism for example, when they make on average more money than people in my (first world) country do. It also seems a bit weird to base a country off of a racial group. I'm not denying it exists though because that is up to the people themselves there, I just kind of view it the same as like California or Texas, which aren't inherently anti-imperialist or anything.

New AfriKKKa is fascist.

>>2762832
yeah thats good i agree with you i just wanted to know since you said you study it. its usually reactionary shitheads who try to do this. the kind of people who think that landback is white genocide and concern troll about islamic ethnic cleansing the jews while pretending to be communist and whining about indigenous casino landlords being bourgeoisie whenever I bring up AIM or people like Nick Estes. recently heard some iranian commies talking about landback in the context of anti-imperialism and how their struggles are connected. none of us are free till all of us are. some people really get it and some just never will

>>2762848
Really highlights how meaningless and liberal whining about "infighting" and "purity" is when I slightly misunderstand an anon and folks frame it like we're arguing.

>>2762854
>I don't really understand how black people in the USA are victims of imperialism for example, when they make on average more money than people in my (first world) country do.
Firstly, averages aren't a class analysis. You are conflating the wages of Black compradors, bureaucrats, proletarians, and prisoners into a singular statistic. I acknowledge that you seem to be coming at this in good faith, and I appreciate that, but that's already an un-Marxist way of looking at this. These strata are going to have very different existences, especially as a nation within an imperial core nation.

That being said, a basic relationship all these strata share to the white bourgeoisie in the US is one of subservience. Black folks are elevated to compradors insofar as they serve the interests of white capital and are more limited than ever in their ability to independently maneuver, despite being more wealthy than ever on paper. Same goes for bureaucrats. Meanwhile Black proletarians were the first fired and forced into semi-proletarian and lumpen positions when the US exported its productive industry (everything but final assembly) to the third world. What productive industry remains is increasingly being performed by prison slave labor, which is disproportionately Black in composition. The entire prison industry is highly concentrated in and around New Afrika, with 6 of the 10 highest-population max security federal penitentiaries in the US being located in the South. It's also no coincidence that Corrections Corporation of America is operating principally out of the South and what used to be Mexico (see pic).

>It also seems a bit weird to base a country off of a racial group.
That's not what's being argued anywhere. Nobody is basing a country off of a racial group. New Afrika is a nation in the Marxist sense. That being the case, like all nations their right to self-determination up to and including secession must be enshrined by the revolution. This doesn't mean, as racists and chauvinists dishonestly allege, that this means forming a Black ethnostate. Anyone telling you this is the position of any Communist group is straight-up lying to you, or are themselves deceived.

>I just kind of view it the same as like California or Texas
Neither California nor Texas are nations in the Marxist sense. They are completely unlike New Afrika, more akin to Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Lebanon.

>>2762854
Wrong. You use nominal wage to justify genocide of afrikans. Afrikan nominal wage is 8% higher, yet english cost of living is 23% less. English arent in genocide prisons, etc. english are bourgeois and afrikan are proletarian.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2025/09/median-household-income.html
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2024
https://www.moneycorp.com/en-gb/news-hub/cost-of-living-in-us-vs-uk/

>>2762935
Thirdies (as third worldist) are fucking stupid, African overlords are proletarians according to this stupid fuck.

behold the third worldist proletarian

>>2762402
They're not. Why would you even try to make this cope?

>>2762930
I'm just going to shut up about this because it is a national struggle which I do not know about so anything I say about it will just end up being ignorant. I wish other people would shut up about national struggles they don't know about as well.

>>2763102
>I wish other people would shut up about national struggles they don't know about as well.
I appreciate you. Lotta people on this site don't know when to shut up in general.

>>2760407
Okay, now apply this to Israel.

>>2763162
Already ahead of you, ultroid

>>2763168
has national liberation gone to far sisters?

>>2763168
when multipolarism goes wrong

>>2763171
On one hand they are slaughtering thousands but on the other hand there's wholesome volkskibbutz and free healthcare sweaty. Who can truly judge?

>>2762930
>What productive industry remains
Why does this myth persist so heavily? All the deindustrializing happened up north and for the last 20 years the manufacturing weight of america, along with the rest of the economy, is swinging down south to states like Alabama Texas and Florida. I think you have an outdated understanding of american conditions

>A big missing part of the story: Interstate competition. The Rust Belt’s manufacturing decline isn’t primarily about jobs going to Mexico. It’s about jobs going to Alabama, South Carolina, Georgia and Tennessee.

>In 1992, there was not a single auto plant in Alabama. Today, Alabama is the No. 1 auto-exporting state, producing more than 1 million vehicles a year.

>Despite the economic growth, Southern states have built so much housing that they kept costs from becoming unaffordable. Last year, both North Carolina and South Carolina each built more than four times as much new housing per capita as Massachusetts, according to U.S. census data. Florida, Georgia, Texas, Tennessee, South Carolina and North Carolina, all built more housing per capita than all of Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, California, New York and Massachusetts. That is not just a 2024 dynamic. That is true for every single year going all the way back to 1993.
https://archive.ph/VAM9a

>>2763180
They know the retarded slaves in the south will not ever betray their "betters".

I always take "economic life" to mean something like caste, where a whole ethnic group is also class into itself. For example Eastern European Jews were mostly merchants, artisans etc' and you wouldn't find peasants or nobles among them.
Otherwise this quote doesn't make sense. A merchant would obviously have a different mindset from worker (even if they are from the same nation).

>>2763373
Business naturally tends to gravitate towards regions with comparatively cheaper labor, thats largely the reason. porky also likes lack of unions, I work in SC and was told in new hire training that any talk of unions or organizing was grounds for immediate termination. northern states are over three times more unionized

>>2763413
Global South
US South
United in Dixiebolshevism or something

>>2763180
It persists because it's not a myth. It's kind of amazing to link something like this as if it should be a surprise to me. Your view of industry is conflating different steps and forms of manufacturing, and it's telling that you ignored the parenthetical right before the sentence you quoted:
>everything but final assembly
The manufacturing that remains in the US, including the south, is principally the least productive part of the process: final assembly. What little real productive manufacturing that remains (which is absolutely also in the South) makes heavy use of enslaved prisoners and migrant workers, which are the only groups that can be paid third world rates (or close to them). Now, it's not a bad thing to emphasize that what production is left in the US is also concentrated in the Black Belt and the industrial farms of the Chican@ homeland (a sign of where the lowest and most exploited workers actually exist), but it is undeniable that the global direction of modern decaying imperialism (principally expressed as neocolonialism today) is toward higher and deeper forms of exploitation in the third world in a desperate bid to stave off increasing crises and declining rates of real profit.

As part of "development" the foundries and mines which already existed in third world countries are being augmented with manufacturing plants and other facilities where parts can be constructed for final assembly in the first world, an expansion of the pre-existing condition where raw materials were exported for refinement and manufacturing in the first world. As Marxists we understand that labor is what produces value in a given commodity, and in general the most laborious work is what puts the most value in a given product. Thus the crisis in industrial labor in the US: where the less-productive stages of the manufacturing process cannot profitably hire the whole population of people who expect to work in it at the wages they expect. In such a crisis, Black labor is the first thrown out in order to sustain the wages of everyone else, but this isn't enough. US capital is in a position where it must either A: magically reverse what the big bourgeoisie needs to survive — which the fascists and imperialists claim to be doing by supposedly moving "jobs" back to the States — or B: intensify attacks on their rivals and deepen exploitation of what they already influence — which is what they're actually doing — easing tightening profits and enabling inflated wages for the less productive stages of production. Black labor in the Black Belt, rather than being hired back, is being redirected into gig, service, and other highly exploitative and unstable semi-proletarian, semi-lumpen or outright lumpen relations which can further cushion and serve the status of white labor and the white bourgeoisie.

>>2763638
>black labor serves the interest of white labor
echoes of 2012 tumblr over here. its a bummer how thoroughly spooked you are on the race question. try reading Marx sometime that'll sort you right out. Lenin too if you're feeling bold

>>2763917
>Tumblr
Oh please lmao. Try for a moment to imagine a world beyond some goofy fight against "SJWs" and go outside.
>try reading Marx sometime that'll sort you right out. Lenin too if you're feeling bold
The thinking of both these men revolved around investigating the world around them in order to change it. Clearly, neither of those things interest you. The chauvinism of you and so many others on this site would make Marx and Lenin puke.