[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Check out our new store at shop.leftypol.org!


File: 1774872406114.png (136.47 KB, 1345x894, qq4498s3ztud1-min.png)

 

in setting oneself against the status-quo and against capitalism, which is the correct thing to do because the status quo and capitalism have many flaws, most people drift into a certain mistaken mode of thinking: capitalism is bad, and whatever is against capitalism is good.

this is a sort of moralistic mode of thinking. it works for individual relationships (john is bad, the enemy of john is my friend) but terribly for modes of social organization. capitalism is good compared to feudalism, capitalism is bad compared to communism. obviously marx understood this and any marxist could tell you that in theory capitalism is "historically progressive" - but look in practice and you'll find that the ire of the communist is always directed more strongly at the capitalist than at any worse alternative. were (somehow) a feudalist counter-revolution to break out in some far flung country, you can bet /leftypol/ would critically support it against US imperialism. we have had our contingent of Trump contrarians, and very few of them pre-2024 were advocating for him on the basis that he'd totally screw the US and clear the way for China to become a world power. no, if that happens it'll be a fluke.

this is important for two reasons:
  1. on the question of how to organize a capitalist economy, conventional economics is more right than it is given credit for. there is no rational reason for socialists to instinctively side with every loser under the status quo. in many cases, socialists should in fact be pushing for "neoliberal" policies that neoliberals themselves have chickend out on. why is it that of all bourgeoise, owners of coca-cola bottling plants are specially isolated from competition by regulation? why should car dealerships have a special carve-out from the market mechanism that gives them greater subsidies and while making the consumer - that is, often, a proletarian - pay more?
  2. most of the possible alternatives to the status quo are worse. you will see more and more language that vaguely evokes the pre-neoliberal status quo, and you shouldn't be baited into supporting it. a protectionist turn against free trade, more in-sourcing of strategic goods, greater domestic investment in (military) industry, and so on, funded of course by a stripping of social protections. if you thought living in a market focused only on trade was bad, wait until you get the thrills of a non-market focused only on war. if you think being ruled by a dictatorship of people who make products people use is bad, just wait until you're run by a dictatorship of dickheads who have the favor of the ruling oligarch and are granted state contracts at his whim.

the state is not your friend. even, really, if it is a socialist state and certainly not if it is a capitalist one. this is another area where one falls into polarized thinking: if the free market supermarket sucks, a state-run supermarket must be good, right? (in actuality, in both cases, the reason the thing sucks is because there is no incentive to be good. giving people money and letting them choose what they want really is in the top 5% of ways of making something be good!) for the most part the basic principle of life should be: just let people do things. (one should remember: daddy state is the primary source of restrictions on the right to strike! a "true" free market would set totally-free trade unions against similarly free private enterprise. idealistically, with the state still preventing outright murder, this really tilts the balance of power towards the proletariat!)

liberals, including social democrats, fundamentally blundered when they got mired in tax instead of focusing on regulation. the optimum capitalist economy matches light-touch regulation with high welfare spending, with negative social externalities handled by tax rather than regulation. (meaning that, if it really matters to you, you can just write a cheque and move on.) abundance types take a tilt in this direction but they've got most of the vices of the old liberals - what they really want is to sign a compromise budget with conservatives where they trade tax cuts and welfare means testing against their pet programs. they have no real enthusiasm for driving the coca-cola bottling bourgeoisie into the dirt because they're an affront to capitalism, let alone communism. (what marxists, but not liberals, can understand is that a core support group for Trumpism is "(petit) bourgeoisie in weird little regulated and protected sectors", so you can hit two birds with one stone by just stripping those regulations! they are a subsidy for being an asshole! in britain, the situation is similar: most former nationalized industries were not privatized into a real market - those that were, like British Airways, turned out quite good - they were privatized into fake markets controlled by the state, and usually governed by the civil servants who used to run them as state-owned-enterprises. In other words, it's one big ruling class swindle!)

i could wrap all of this in warm language for you. i could flatter you by saying: look at china, look at how they love free trade and global stability under the strong rule of a communist party. do you really think you understand material development better than them? but that would be a cop out, you would just be accepting that china is good, rather than the general framework: that life is about trade-offs, and that you shouldn't accept a worse tradeoff just to own the capitalists. you shouldn't get lazy in your thinking.

tl;dr the "correct" answer to all the problems of the status quo is, counter intuitively: deregulation, higher welfare, and much more socialist organizing. most socialists fall into the trap of: pro-regulation, indifferent to welfare, and lazy when it comes to organizing. neoliberalism failed to deliver the former, never really understood that it should have delivered the former, but in recognizing why it failed one shouldn't fall into the trap of pining for the dead 1945-75 consensus.

now go ahead and argue with me.

are you drunk or high on some other shit?

>>2760740
>Dengoid babble
Read Marx, Read Engels, Read Pannekoek, Read anti-dühring, Read the manifesto, Read

>>2760750
more just writing down some scattered thoughts.

>>2760758
reading will only get you so far, at some point you have to look at empirical results and make comparisons. i include the china reference only to highlight that i could frame this in a very agreeable way and have a circlejerk, but i'm more interested in challenging cliches.

put very simply: it ought to be uncontentious that we are massively better off today than in 1700, 1800, 1900, 1950, and - here's where we'll get mad - 1980. this has all been historically progressive. mistakes have been made, but most people mis-diagnose those mistakes.
you don't have to surrender your analysis that sweatshops are imperialism to accept that sweatshops beat subsistence farming, as neoliberals correctly identify, and that - left to free trade and free bargaining between unions and employers - sweatshops will improve over time until they're mere factories. a dengist would point out it happened in china, others can point elsewhere. but you're on a completely wrong jumping off point if you just go "look how bad things have become - it wasn't like this before!" when it was almost always worse.

or, more panderingly: there should be free trade with cuba.

>>2760780
Please be honest, what is your profitability rate?

>>2760740
>>2760770
>>2760780
clanker post
>real neoliberalism has never been tried
a thread died for this

>>2760822
no ai could write with so little regard for overall coherence, so much affection for comma splices and run on sentences, nor such disregard for the rule of thirds.

it is not that real neoliberalism has never been tried, it is that neoliberals - like most successful ideologues - were half right and half wrong, and eventually undone by the half they got wrong. ideal neoliberalism has never been tried, and it is only by understanding where we missed that ideal that we can understand where they went wrong and what the correct direction of travel would've been, which gestures at what the next "best possible" or "best probable" state is.
(a pandering AI sophist trained on /leftypol/ would throw in some word salad insisting this is all very thesis-antithesis-synthesis, but i will do you no such disservice.)

>>2760893
shit gets more retarded in this shithole by the day. whole frontpage spammed with absolute garbage tier threads such as
>ideal neoliberalism
>did margs ever think about capitalism being eternal
>i never read a book here is why scientific socialism is wrong

>>2760895
yet here you are in my thread whining that you don't like what i want to talk about instead of making better threads, despite presumably having a big brain overflowing with ideas for them
perhaps you need a tax on whining to incentivize you towards more pro-social behavior.

>>2760918
>hat you don't like what i want to talk about
you don't even know what you want to talk about yourself. you vomited your drug infused nonsense into an incoherent jumbled mess of a post as if this was you diary.

>>2760758
not OP, but deng returned china to historical materialism with a hybrid approach, mao was the revisionist as he tried to outright inorganically engineer it which was never part of marx's thought. the US is already on the true organic path (slower, uneven), however deng's hybrid approach means they won't need to do a second bloody revolution as they can dialectically transition between the forces of production and relation of production peacefully via marxism leninist centralize state structure as a result of 1949, so we should at least thank mao for that, but no more than that. 1978 is the world historical innovation between the synthesis of marxism leninism + global capital, the sharpest of contradiction producing the most powerful engine for growth and development and advancing their trajectory in historical materialism. marx would actually be hella proud.

>>2761052
>but deng returned china
China never left. That’s not how historical materialism works.
>mao was the revisionist as he tried to outright inorganically engineer it
Deng never rectified that.
>the US is already on the true organic path (slower, uneven)
You mean faster and steady.
>however deng's hybrid approach means they won't need to do a second bloody revolution
Revisionism. The revolution will always end in blood. The bourgeoisie will never stop until their power is ripped from their cold, bloodied, dead hands.
>marx would actually be hella proud.
He would be disappointed his expectations were not exceeded by reality. China had it’s opportunity to bypass the capitalist mode of production using it’s peasantry. That opportunity was ignored, and so they remain on the lower end of historical progression.

Someone call OP a jewish negro because I am tired of getting banned for it.

>>2760993
i know exactly what i want to talk about. indeed, the thread title summarizes it very briefly. every other word merely develops on that point and sketches around both where left-wingers and pro-capitalist weirdoes go wrong, as well as why it's important to set things straight. (as well as trying to reiterate that, despite points 1 and 2 - capitalism and liberalism being good - i am not approaching this from the perspective of a capitalist or a liberal, but from that of a communist.)
>you [sic] diary
perhaps you should lay off the drugs too.

>>2761075
there is not one lasallian word in anything i've said. at least call me an anarkiddie and half 5% of a point.

>>2761219
i hope you get payed a good buck for acting like an autistic 16 year old reddit edge lord who deems his post nut clarity shower thoughts deep and worthy a discussion.

>>2761843
edgelords are famously into marginalism, planning reform, and the welfare state.

>>2760740
Liberalism is bad
Fascism is very bad
Feudalism is extremely bad

>>2764270
you're making the same point in language more agreeable to the prejudices of the board.
"this is the worst possible system, except for 99% of the alternatives" vs "this is the best possible system, except for 1% of the alternatives."

This is ahistorical. In most instances was a brief period of social democratic failure before communism seemed appealing.

> look at china
China operates by the “light-heavy” principle when it comes to the market. It’s not a neoliberal “free-market” and still purposely maintains SOEs which is why neoliberal capitalists in the U.S. are still pissy.

>>2764291
Find me a market economy that doesn't maintain SOEs and has no government intervention. The reason neoliberal capitalists are pissy is because they have to compete with Chinese capital, since China can pump out 100 cheap EVs for one dogshit F-150.

>>2764291
the US has just as much state aid and protection even if it doesn't have ownership
indeed, regulation and protection from failure matters far more than ownership in terms of skewing market outcomes negatively. americans should all be driving cheap chinese cars, SOE or not.

>>2764294
>Find me a market economy that doesn't maintain SOEs and has no government intervention.
Find me one where 68% of the total registered capital of all firms have at least some level of state ownership and you might have a point. https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/reassessing-role-state-ownership-chinas-economy
> The reason neoliberal capitalists are pissy is because they have to compete with Chinese capital
Those aren't mutually exclusive. If they could have implemented and maintained "shock therapy" neoliberal policies in China in the late-70s early-80s, they would likely not be having the same issues they are having today.
>>2764300
Ownership is a crucial difference because it's partially how China was able to reject neoliberal shock therapy. The market instead became a tool for development goals instead of falling into the neoliberal trap of being used by the market for the sake of building U.S. dominance. Using China as an example of neoliberal superiority is nonsense when neoliberalism would have wrecked them completely if it had its way.

>>2764353
ownership is not particularly relevant to that development model, which is why china is a mixed economy. the ownership/control distinction blurs almost to irrelevance in such a context anyway.

what you must understand is that the US state acting in market distorting ways is also bad. this is why liberalism is "good" - in almost all areas, the US following the theoretical prescriptions of liberalism leads to better outcomes. neoliberal economic theory, divorced from its flawed, human advocates, will tell you loud and clear that there should be free trade with cuba. (even if cuba doesn't reciprocate!)

or, back to the thesis of the OP: the implementers of neoliberalism let neoliberalism down. would-be neoliberal presidents continued to indulge in protectionism and obviously inefficient regulated/protected markets. in britain, half of neoliberal-hero margaret thatcher's privatizations put former state assets into "private" markets subject to less competitive pressure than the average chinese SOE. what was good in "actually existing neoliberalism" is fading, and what is bad is expanding. all i'm saying is: consider the inverse. imagine if the good were expanded, and the bad were fading, instead of writing off the whole thing and pretending that the closest thing to the kingdom of heaven on earth is the random statist tilts of the nixon administration combined with headline-programs from the dead USSR.


Unique IPs: 16

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]