This book was written for a primarily white audience and throughout it, an idea that white Americans or white westerners tend to struggle in social settings in general stuck out to me. This wasn’t explicit, but a lot of the problems the author complained about did follow the patterns of what I’d expect of someone with generally poor social skills:
• getting defensive over racism or speculated of it instead of calmly apologizing or recognizing that youre harming others (this latter carries over to non racial conversations)
• actively denying the lived experiences of others of colour when presented with consistent verbal reports from them
• needing to be told by people of colour about their issues with American racism instead of being able to perceive them firsthand (I’m concerned that this carries over into not being able to tell when one is harming others in white westerner communities)
• excusing blatantly or obviously racist (obvious as in even the person watching can tell without failure that that behaviour is racist) behaviour from other white Americans instead of just calling out that behaviour as inappropriate and asking for its cessation (that makes me question if other inappropriate behaviours also aren’t questioned)
These are some of the points that came up. If you can, please leave some responses on your experiences as or around white American or white westerners so I can get a better understanding if these aspects of social maladjustment are just my observations or realized by others
>>2762729
I cannot tell if you’re purposefully being unhelpful and edgy or if you genuinely believe what you wrote.
I believe the author was trying to comment on the idea that many white Americans struggle when confronted with any topic related to racial bias in American society that’s caused by members of their community as a byproduct of poor socialization with well, other people in general. She doesn’t say any of the things you mentioned.
>>2762740
Whatever man. Do you have any real accounts of any of the bullet points I mentioned? I’m not like interrogating or wanting a reaction man. I just want to know if you’ve seen any of the behavioural patterns I’ve mentioned come up in your own or others lives.
Say whatever you want, I won’t judge
Any material by Western leftists, whether white or non-white is hogwash.
>>2762744>matt WalshIsn’t that guy notorious for being creepy and had a lot of scandals related to being invasive surrounding topics related to trans women and young girls?
>>2762745
I’ll be frank
You sound unusually defensive despite never being called out individually or accused of anything. The book at no point explicitly or implicitly blames or attacks members of the white American community either and the author stresses a few times from what I’ve read that going into blame arguments is counterproductive for ensuring that the social health of white Americans improves as the world grows. No one is asking you (as in specifically you) to do anything right now. The author is addressing leaders of the white American community to at least be more responsive and patient when listening to complaints about social issues within white American spaces and with listening to the issues of people from colour from how I read this book—I mean, that kind of clarifies the purpose of explicitly mentioning “why it’s hard for white people to talk about racism.”
I don’t think getting defensive or angry over being asked about your experiences helps at all to my original question or your worldviews eirher.
>>2762749
From what I’ve seen, perceivably edgy posts like the one I responded too often are written with genuine sincerity on behalf of the responders, but that’s often limited to websites like instagram, twitter, and TikTok where outrage content, scandals, and henerally harmful media are already put on reels and feeds because they bring a lot of clicks and likewise advertising revenue to the site owners
>>2762699Racism is often beaten into white people. White people are often victims of their own racism and it’s created a culture of neuroticism and self oppression. Which is why Rachael Dolzer was right. Abandon whiteness, that shit sucks. Embrace diversity and globalism, embracing being a mutt American. You’re the bastard of humanity and good or bad these are you people.
>American literature
>>2762756Sorry if I came across that way then. for context, I accredited most of these issues with poor socialization and social skills, because that was how I read the points made by Angelo, and I came to believe that they held at least some truth given that she does frequently speak on isolation and segregation from effectively all other ethnic groups in white American spaces.
>>2762755I don’t know if this is correct because I’m not white, but that feels too extreme of a conclusion to draw in about them. Angelo from how I interpreted her book describes most forms of prejudice to be subconscious and largely lacking actually malicious intent, and at some point mentioned that this isn’t a behavioural pattern unique to white Americans either
>>2762763The Americas (all of them) have a complicated history and it’s basically Israel if it “succeeded”. Settle colonialism always fails, you eventually become native to the land you reside in, even if you started out as an invasive species. That’s why Americas is going through an identity crisis and you see a multi- racial white supremacy movement, Mexicans, and South Americans insisting they’re Spanish(European). The racial politics are increasingly becoming non-sensical.
>>2762781Theres no such thing as a settler as land ownership wont be a thing under communism
Ok so I’m getting a lot of conflicting ideas here
>>2762770This might make sense given that us history when put into comparison of most of human history is very violent and very invasive. Obviously, no sane minded person wants to discuss topics such as indigenous genocide, systemic sexual assault of black women, or unprovoked hostility against non white groups despite its significance to us history. There’s that to consider when it comes to defensiveness and aversion to discussing race
>>2762775This is an ideal, but it isn’t helpful, because it reduces to a colour blind worldview in application. This doesn’t sound harmful at first, but it does simultaneously deny and ignore the reality that the USA is very literally a classist and hierarchical society with ideas of race explicitly imposed on its structure and has been for most of its history been way more explicit with it. It’s soften due to *a lot* of civil efforts, but not enough for an ideal like this to be possible.
>>2762781I don’t know much on this so I won’t speak on it
From what I’ve gotten, Angelo’s initial points are like 70-80% ish accurate. I see that there’s clearly a want for real colour blindness or at least clear for differences comparable to countries in Africa, South America, and south east Asia with the added removal of systemically racist structures behind American society. It does also seem like many of you here (I won’t equate what happens on this site to the opinions of members of white Americans in real life) know how to actually achieve this goal for america today.
Do you guys consider that fair?
>>2762797>Liberal Moralism.He says while complaining about settlers as if genes give you right to land ownership lmao
So are you asking for personal anecdotes or our take on those points? Regardless as a white guy who was going through unity probably around that book's peak popularity.
>getting defensive over racism
Think it really is a mixed bag here. I mean as a kid there were some particularly absurd moments I remember when learning about race. Like I would play one of those Tony Hawk skater games and my (liberal) mom would worry that using the character creator to make someone who looked like me could "make you racist" because "you should be just as willing to play a video game as a Black person" (this wasn't, like, outright refusing to play a game with a Black person, just making a character that looked like me). In school I once knew a kid in first or second grade who got a talk about racism from faculty because he was playing with his black friend and said something like "I OWN you!", y'know, smack talk
I'll say there's way more casualness about race, I've seen, working in a diverse environment from non-White people than White people. I was talking about learning to code with a Hispanic coworker and he said "Nah I suck with computers, I'm Mexican, I got the car repair gene." I invited an Asian coworker to a BBQ once and took a picture of my dog for the group chat, he joked "I hope he doesn't think I'm gonna eat him." Shit, even my Black friends would joke about race now and then. The most racially charged statements I hear from other White people (beyond Boomers saying something fucked up then shambling off) is usually prefaced with "I'm sorry, BUT"
The super defensiveness seems to be an old person trait.
>actively denying the lived experiences of People of Color
Ehhh I haven't seen that in the wild, but again it seems par of the course for a lot of older White people. That was and is basically the Republican Party's modus operandi.
>needing to be told by people of colour about their issues with American racism instead of being able to perceive them firsthand
I mean there's particular things White people just genuinely don't notice. Though I think new forms of communication are making them more noticeable if that makes sense. "Colorism" (I believe that's the term for Black people feeling prejudiced towards other Black people based on how light the color of their skin is) was essentially unknown for me growing up. I think most White people had an image of racism more as explicitly joining the Klan and burning crosses, calling people the N-word, real "in your face" kind of stuff. Things like police brutality were often dismissed out of hand before we had videos showing just how absurdly violent and corrupt police are around Black people.
The way I see it you often see the same with, for example, depression. Everyone imagines a person struggling with depression to be sad all the time, look like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. They don't realize that the dude laughing next to them could seriously be considering killing himself.
>excusing blatantly or obviously racist behavior from other white people
Yeah I'm pretty sure this happens, though I think its more common in the context of familial bonds. Y'know the kind of people who keep around toxic family members because "Well, he's FAMILY we can't exclude Racist Uncle Joey from Thanksgiving!" I think its a kind of hypocrisy that often happens in those cases. But I don't think it really extends that strongly outside the bonds of personal relationships if that makes sense. Like someone could have an Uncle that says the most heinously racist stuff and they'd try to excuse them (not a good thing, mind you) but they wont rush to say David Duke "isn't all that bad".
Anyways that's all I got for now. If you have any other questions lmk.
>>2762870
I find a good portion of the people that preach of inferior and superior races to frankly be poor examples of humans: ones with no achievements to speak of and often antisocial weirdos
>>2762798>>He says while complaining about settlers as if genes give you right to land ownership lmaoIt is easy to make you ACP Midwestern dorks show your reactionary colors. It will be even easier to keep you at bay and eventually, to finish the job, completely containing and eradicating your reactionary counter-insurgency organization.
>>2762799>>No, you banned me. Because you got called out for you namesake while fedposting. You have it backwards. Nobody in the JPA is a moderator here. Fed‑posting is not pointing out that reactionaries have no place in a workers‑run society, what, did the picture of my beautiful SKS (or was it an AKM?) with that statement make you uncomfortable? Too bad. Fed‑posting is saying “we should do [incriminating thing] soon” or any other behavior that actually incriminates. Fed‑posting is not when language makes feds like you uncomfortable, I know how to tread the line without poking. I know that I could be arrested if I go to enemy territory, because you have eroded protections for certain speech in your backwards settler reactionary enclaves such as FL, so I will be more Houdini than Houdini when I slide in your localities, and I often do. Beyond that, "the mob" in democratic cities will protect people like me for now. On the topic of fed-posting, again, you are the fed, so technically any time you post, it is fed‑posting.
>>2762876
The jews chose the wrong side. Our support for "oppressed groups" is not unconditional over time, if the oppressed align with oppressors, and their colonial societies, they will not be taken seriously when they cry victim. The zionist gets treated the same way any uncle tom or crackkker would.
>>2762878
Shalom! I cant wait to see Tel Aviv eradicated. Now go ahead, respond about how this is a fed-post, you little subhuman.
>>2762883
What do you mean? The BUND critiqued Zionism off the rip. Zionists have always been reactionary and most jews are now accepted in the realm of Amerikkkan whiteness.
>>2762878
>>Yeah, that's not what you were doing at all, you were super butthurt about it too. lol. Sorry you were freaking out about the Iran war like a sperg
I was there watching it, not at all what happened. The gaslighting is incredible, we have federal agents from /pol/ posting here. The left has long since collectively accepted that some ideals are not equal to ours, and we do not engage in respectful dialogue with reactionary movements. When one of our comrades states that fact aggressively, you twist their words, putting incriminating language in their mouth like a cop, painting them as some kind of school shooter type. It is pathetic. And mind you, you were baited. If you got banned, it is funny, because all of your data is now being studied. Who tasked you with trying to convince the left to abandon what has already been the historic, collective norm for dealing with fascists, the slime of pigs and citizens running covert missions under NSPM 7?
>>2762699I used to ignore this, thought people mentioning were just virtue signaling and that there wasn't really anything rhere.
But after lurking r/Jewishleft for a few years (I am not Jewish, btw), I've changed my mind on it.
It's just so surreal seeing someone go from being a stout anti-racist to making excuses because the racism is associated with their identity or an ideology they belief in.
>>2762729but robin diangelo's book has nothing to with Communism, nor is robin diangelo jewish
>>2762699>• getting defensive over racism or speculated of it I don't know what "speculated of it" means here. That doesn't make sense to me. Not trolling. It looks like autocorrect changed the word you meant to use?
>• actively denying the lived experiences of others of colour when presented with consistent verbal reports from thembut no group of people has a universal lived experience. I know because I'm mixed race and I have been both a victim of racism and falsely accused of racism by narcissists and gaslighters looking to start interpersonal conflicts for attention seeking and power plays.
>>2762699It's a retread of race-science under the guise of sociology, for PMC hustlers. Literally a civil religion with concepts of original sin, a priesthood of liberal sociology, their monopoly on absolution of the sins and the need to employ parasites like DiAngelo as moral guides and generally wreckers of class consciousness.
>>2762791i feel like the North American racial dialectic overcorrected the post-civil-rights-movement status quo and went into a sort of paranoid frenzy in the 2010s where a mostly hyper-sensitive college-educated and academic liberal worldview about race leaked into the broader social life before people were prepared. There was suddenly talk about opposing color blindness when many people thought color blindness WAS anti-racism based on their experience growing up during the civil rights movement, there emerged a precise definition of racism that excluded the possibility of nonwhites being racist to whites (but not towards each other?), there was a tendency to treat white-passing mixed race people as essentially privileged "race traitors" (without using that phrase) to people of color, there was a tendency to ignore the historical and frankly re-emerging racism between different kinds of "white" people, there was a projection of the American petty bourgeois professional setting racial dialectic onto the whole Western hemisphere and sometimes even the whole planet, much to the confusion of immigrants and working class people. There emerged a hyper-sensitive Human-Resources ideology that is highly counter-intuitive without a social studies education but was nevertheless treated as incredibly obvious by its adherents, in much the same way that people in STEM often fail to understand that their hyper-specialization isn't obvious to the laymen. A lack of education in this form of petty bourgeois sensitivity and etiquette was treated as "fragility." It was sort of a passive-aggressive petty bourgeois cultural revolution. Working class people and the lumpenproletariat people had very little use for this. There is no Robin DiAngelo being read in the prison system. They prefer Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Huey Newton. When the Aryan Brotherhood guy steps to you in the yard, you break his nose, you don't ask him to check his privilege. White polite liberal office workers who grew up admiring MLK and Harriet Tubman and would never utter a racial slur found themselves inundated with accusations of racism, and if these accusations made them cry, it was proof they were even bigger racists. The guy with 10000 swastikas tattooed all over his body would never be moved to tears by such an accusation. He proudly declares his intentions.
>>2762874>to finish the job, completely containing and eradicating your reactionary counter-insurgency organization. God you militant larpers are as embarassing as chuds lmao
>>2763027I mean, maybe it's the horseshoe theory applied to cringe? The reality of the matter is that we have our comrades we trained in theory and organizing planted in many many organizations and have been funneling people into our own networks of theory and praxis for years, long since we were banned from CPUSA for doing it. We smartened up, started using human proxies, playing it more low-key, less hot-headed. I served four years in prison in Missouri. Was that LARP? We may or may not have had a hand in organizing the biggest prison strike in U.S. history. I am a Teamster who put differences aside and assisted DSA and Anarcho Syndicalists in the building of a radical union network inside the AFL‑CIO. Miss me with that LARP shit. I don’t break the law, but I don’t LARP either, feel me? If I did LARP, I'd pick something like old-west bandit, pirate, something like that.
I think our comrade has been confusing the ACP with the CPUSA. There are a few newcomers under the JPA who have made this mistake more than once, we recently corrected them through our private channels and gave them plenty to review.
Now, about the ACP, interacting with individuals associated with Haz specifically, we was all surprised. The ACP is way less cringe than the CPUSA in my personal experience. I don’t mean that politically or even in terms of praxis; it’s more about personality type and the level of comfort I have around certain kinds of people. The personalities seem more working‑class, blue‑collar, people who know how to handle power tools, a hammer, and a gun.
Let me also reiterate, the ACP has agreed to certain things with the JPA, and we are not currently deploying the same tactics of infiltration and diversion with them as we are with the CPUSA. I apologize that our comrade created confusion. I can’t get into detail, but the ACP does not mind what we have going against the CPUSA over the years at all. In fact, they acted and split the CPUSA at a crucial moment with us. Our comrade shouldn’t have worded things about the ACP that way, perhaps they know this, but have not fully went over the material and got back to us, which is why they shed the Juche tag for the comment. I do disagree with many of the ACP’s openly shared theories, but I can’t deny the under‑the‑table solidarity they have offered the JPA & friends.
I mean, I struggle in social settings but I don't think that's because I'm white.
I think a major problem is that discussions of race have pretty much been totally divorced from class and material analysis. Also I think people, no matter who they are, don't want to apologize for their existence. Everyone has their own struggles and problems they have to deal with, especially under capitalism.
>>2762863That helps thanks
>>2763233
> If you think you can spot them, you’re wrong
oh please, it's obviously chagos, felix, and wrongschizo
>>2763233
maybe talking to bots is better than video games so i'mma keep doing it anyway
>>2763237Wrong. Some dumbass labor aristocrst cracker colonizer yank said
>>2761694 they would spam vile content to terrorize people because they are butthurt at "Third-Worldists." That is probably same person.
>>2763248
my bbc is organic and it is entering your wife's bussy right now
Let's be honest here. The reason white americans have no patience for discussions of racism is because non-whites have no patience for tales of racism against whites. Just listen to brown people talk for a while, online or off, and eventually the conversation turns to bbc for white women. This thread is an example of it.
Well, let me give you official permission to keep doing it, as a white man, I give you all a "wigger pass". You can officially use white people as the butt of every joke. You've been doing it for years, now you can do it with the white man's blessing. It wouldn't be very superior of a superior race to be unable to take a joke at its expense, would it? 😏
>>2762699Everyone is racist
This book is just basic bitch ragebait, and you bought it.
Good question
>>2763635
>You are likely arguing with code, not comrades.
it has always been that way, long before ai. the average extremely-online human internet commentator has always been nothing more than a preprogrammed algorithm - take an arbitrary contrarian position, cherrypick search engine data for factoids to reinforce your case, move goalposts and resort to ad hominem when proven wrong, rinse, repeat. they were always mindless automatons from the very beginning - the ai is just a much more energy-inefficient version of them, but they are equally soulless and devoid of human thought.
>>2763412it cuts off there because he got knocked out
>>2762968dude in video is hot I would gladly be his prisonwife
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