/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>I want to increase the reserve army of labour so the capitalist class in the imperial core never runs out of cheap labour.
You are a jewish negro, Lassalle

>>2763769
yes
the imperial working class has no problem making my life worse, so why should i feel empathy for them? i hope inflation gets worse and their comfy bullshit jobs get outsourced to bangladesh

Sorry thirdies but communism is all about closing borders so I can have more treats, stay home and build your own productive forces

>>2763780
so european nationalists are correct in thinking there can be no solidarity with the third world because exploiting the third world benefits them and letting third worlders into their country damages their economy?

I swear national socialists/strasserites and third worldists believe basically the same thing, but on different sides of the globe, the world is about race war and the working class can never unite.

>>2763787
>the world is about race war and the working class can never unite.
not "race"(spook) but yes, the working class can never truly fully unite under capitalism, believing blindly in internationalism won't change that, change comes from work that unites the masses that is not happening, or i say never happened in expressive manner.

>>2763787
The actual working class benefits from immigration by ushering in the end of the empire. The middle class does not benefit from immigration.

>>2763790
so the ideology that makes the most sense to europeans and yanks isn't communist internationalism then.

it would be something like a treat heavy social democracy with nationalist characteristics.

>>2763811
that is what an unfiltered and lacking in communist vigilance proletarian ideals will look like.
in fact this is what most of their mainstream leftist ideologues believe, and as long as there is nothing to btfo these ideas this is as far as it will go.

>>2763811
The welfare state is good because it lowers religiosity. This is why the middle-class petro-Christians oppose welfare.

>>2763766
Marx and Engels' position is not the same as that of Third Worldists who refuse to organize for the common interest of all workers of all nationalities, regressing to a moralistic position of pity for Third World workers and resentment against First World workers. Believing the lie that employment is a scarce commodity created by the benevolent capitalist and that workers do not create value through socially necessary labor time is reactionary because it views other workers as competitors and enemies instead of sharing a common class interest antagonistic to that of the capitalist, since abandoning other workers to be more intensely exploited will lead to greater exploitation of all workers due to a lack of solidarity that will normalize this type of intensified exploitation.

Let's begin with the text addressing the issue of Irish and English workers at the time:

<I shall give you here only quite briefly the salient points.

<Ireland is the bulwark of the English landed aristocracy. The exploitation of that country is not only one of the main sources of their material wealth; it is their greatest moral strength. They, in fact, represent the domination over Ireland. Ireland is therefore the cardinal means by which the English aristocracy maintain their domination in England itself.

<If, on the other hand, the English army and police were to be withdrawn from Ireland tomorrow, you would at once have an agrarian revolution in Ireland. But the downfall of the English aristocracy in Ireland implies and has as a necessary consequence its downfall in England. And this would provide the preliminary condition for the proletarian revolution in England. The destruction of the English landed aristocracy in Ireland is an infinitely easier operation than in England herself, because in Ireland the land question has been up to now the exclusive form of the social question because it is a question of existence, of life and death, for the immense majority of the Irish people, and because it is at the same time inseparable from the national question. Quite apart from the fact that the Irish character is more passionate and revolutionary than that of the English.

<As for the English bourgeoisie, it has in the first place a common interest with the English aristocracy in turning Ireland into mere pasture land which provides the English market with meat and wool at the cheapest possible prices. It is likewise interested in reducing the Irish population by eviction and forcible emigration, to such a small number that English capital (capital invested in land leased for farming) can function there with “security”. It has the same interest in clearing the estates of Ireland as it had in the clearing of the agricultural districts of England and Scotland. The £6,000-10,000 absentee-landlord and other Irish revenues which at present flow annually to London have also to be taken into account.

<But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.

<And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.

<This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organisation. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this.

<But the evil does not stop here. It continues across the ocean. The antagonism between Englishmen and Irishmen is the hidden basis of the conflict between the United States and England. It makes any honest and serious co-operation between the working classes of the two countries impossible. It enables the governments of both countries, whenever they think fit, to break the edge off the social conflict by their mutual bullying, and, in case of need, by war between the two countries.

<England, the metropolis of capital, the power which has up to now ruled the world market, is at present the most important country for the workers’ revolution, and moreover the only country in which the material conditions for this revolution have reached a certain degree of maturity. It is consequently the most important object of the International Working Men’s Association to hasten the social revolution in England. The sole means of hastening it is to make Ireland independent. Hence it is the task of the International everywhere to put the conflict between England and Ireland in the foreground, and everywhere to side openly with Ireland. It is the special task of the Central Council in London to make the English workers realise that for them the national emancipation of Ireland is not a question of abstract justice or humanitarian sentiment but the first condition of their own social emancipation.

<These are roughly the main points of the circular letter, which thus at the same time give the raisons d’étre of the resolutions passed by the Central Council on the Irish amnesty.

[…]

<We hit another bird with the same stone, we have forced the Irish leaders, journalists, etc., in Dublin to get into contact with us, which the General Council had been unable to achieve previously!

<You have wide field in America for work along the same lines. A coalition of the German workers with the Irish workers (and of course also with the English and American workers who are prepared to accede to it) is the greatest achievement you could bring about now. This must be done in the name of the International. The social significance of the Irish question must be made clear.

<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New York

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Remembering that Marx and Engels favored uniting all workers of all nationalities, including immigrants, to fight together for the communist revolution and their shared class interests, separatism was not acceptable to them without some material conditions. Irish separatism was an acceptable alternative due to English chauvinism, which hindered the organization of the English and Irish proletariat. This prejudice stemmed from the intensified subjugation of Irish workers. If the alternative to a joint revolution in Britain is the continuation of this subjugation of the Irish, then Irish independence would be an option for a future socialist federation on more equal terms between the Irish and English.

I'll post the text where you can read "The Question of the General Council's Resolution on the Irish Amnesty" if you're interested in reading it, which explains this point:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/03/28.htm

Now, to answer the question about immigration, I will first cite the general position that differentiates communists from other working-class parties in the manifesto:

<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Let's look at practical examples of a political program in an election in a bourgeois democracy, with texts by Marx and Engels that fit what is written:

<(iv) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, in so far as they still exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.

<(v) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

<Frederick Engels, 1847, The Principles of Communism

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

<1. One rest day each week or legal ban on employers imposing work more than six days out of seven. - Legal reduction of the working day to eight hours for adults. - A ban on children under fourteen years working in private workshops; and, between fourteen and sixteen years, reduction of the working day from eight to six hours;
<2. Protective supervision of apprentices by the workers' organizations;
<3. Legal minimum wage, determined each year according to the local price of food, by a workers' statistical commission;
<4. Legal prohibition of bosses employing foreign workers at a wage less than that of French workers;
[…]
<7. Responsibility of society for the old and the disabled;
<8. Prohibition of all interference by employers in the administration of workers' friendly societies, provident societies, etc., which are returned to the exclusive control of the workers;
<9. Responsibility of the bosses in the matter of accidents, guaranteed by a security paid by the employer into the workers' funds, and in proportion to the number of workers employed and the danger that the industry presents;
<10. Intervention by the workers in the special regulations of the various workshops; an end to the right usurped by the bosses to impose any penalty on their workers in the form of fines or withholding of wages (decree by the Commune of 27 April 1871);

<Karl Marx and Jules Guesde, 1880, The Programme of the Parti Ouvrier

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm

Now let's look at Lenin's quotes for those who pretend the Bolsheviks didn't have workers of various nationalities or refused to organize immigrant workers:

<We can demand popular election of officers, abolition of all military law, equal rights for foreign and native-born workers (a point particularly important for those imperialist states which, like Switzerland, are more and more blatantly exploiting larger numbers of foreign workers, while denying them all rights). Further, we can demand the right of every hundred, say, inhabitants of a given country to form voluntary military-training associations, with free election of instructors paid by the state, etc.

<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1916, The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution: III

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/miliprog/iii.htm

<6) Freedom of movement and occupation.

<7) Abolition of the social estates; equal rights for all citizens irrespective of sex, creed, race, or nationality.
[…]
<12) Replacement of the standing army by the universally armed people.

<12) The police and standing army to be replaced by the universally armed people; workers and other employees to receive regular wages from the capitalists for the time devoted to public service in the people’s militia.
[…]
<In the endeavour to achieve its immediate aims, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party supports every oppositional and revolutionary movement directed against the existing social and political set-up in Russia, but at the same time emphatically rejects all reformist projects involving any expansion or consolidation of the guardianship of the police and bureaucracy over the labouring masses.

<V. I. Lenin, 1917, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

From here, you can already see that any excuse anyone gives to increase the repressive power of the bourgeois state under any pretext must be opposed by communists. Remember that the proletarian state has the right to use its revolutionary terror to socialize the economy and punish counterrevolutionaries as it pleases, since the state is an instrument of one class to oppress another.

There are many possible actions to be taken with wage equalization, unionization of all workers, the right to radical unionization to organize outside the control of the bourgeoisie or its state, advancement of the legal right to public defense, democratization of the legal and judicial process in addition to the guaranteed public legal right to legal processes for all workers to fight in solidarity together, adding to this with the socialization of needs so that the population has the right to housing, education, health, childcare as a social responsibility of the entire society instead of being at the mercy of all of this that will remain as commodities for profit in the market.

>>2763909
I do not want to reform the empire, I want to collapse it. I support increased spending on the repressive apparatus (including welfare which is a tool of counter-insurgency) because I want to hollow out the empire's industrial capacity.

>>2763787
>so european nationalists are correct in thinking there can be no solidarity with the third world because exploiting the third world benefits them and letting third worlders into their country damages their economy?

That is not what nationalists think

>>2763780
A jewish negro, Lassalle

>>2763979
i am continuously filling and hollowing out your mother's pussy and i will not pay for the counter-insurgency welfare called child support

>>2763769
If immigration is just class war, great, let's import infinite academics, lawyers, and doctors, but no more pipe fitters and farmhands.

>>2764306
Based

>>2764321
Think twice before replying to me please

You know climate change is gonna mean everyone on earth goes to New Zealand, Canada, and Russia as they’re gonna be the only arable and liveable land in 50 years right?

>>2763780
>the imperial working class has no problem making my life worse
You are mad at the correct group and I have no notes. Keep it up!

>I want the expansion of immigration and the ruin of the imperial middle-class.

give it time, climate change will make your dreams come true

>>2763979
You are merely delaying the collapse of the bourgeois state and betraying the workers by increasing the repression of the bourgeois state, hindering the advancement of class struggle and preventing the formation of dual power and the organization of workers. The scientific socialist position is one of radical reforms that prevent capital from accumulating and transferring costs to the workers; this pushes the bourgeois state to its limit by attempting to democratize it, and the masses lose their illusions about the state as the class struggle intensifies.

Your position is that of a petty-bourgeois reactionary hiding behind "accelerationism" to avoid chaos in your bourgeois state by cutting off all ways for financial capital to expand globally through debt, loans, weapons, money, and foreign aid to intensify capital accumulation and keep the native population of these countries under control. Every communist revolution depends on arming the workers for a people's militia that serves the supremacy of the proletariat in self-defense committees. The institutions of the police that defend private property and the military that defend the bourgeois state must fall so that the people's militias, like the Red Guard and the Red Army, can democratize the collapsing military to serve economic sovereignty, anti-imperialism, and the supremacy of the proletarian class to socialize the economy in proletarian democracy. This depends on opposing any attempt to empower the repressive bourgeois state.

You are not accelerating the fall of the bourgeois state in any way; rather, you are saving the bourgeois state and are therefore an enemy who will be punished as a counter-revolutionary.

Instead of improving the conditions of proleterians worldwide you want to bring down the material conditions for a certain sect of proleterians instead?
What even is communism to you? Just a way for you to play out your third-worldist revenge fantasies?

>>2765250
Thats what communism is to at least 80% of marxists

>I want the expansion of immigration and the ruin of the imperial working class
So you're a bourgeois liberal.

>>2765236
> The scientific socialist position is one of radical reforms that prevent capital from accumulating and transferring costs to the workers
Such as?
> by cutting off all ways for financial capital to expand globally through debt, loans, weapons, money, and foreign aid
I would rather unionize, force the offshoring of productive industry to the colonies and de-industrialize the metropole. Fictitious capital is fictitious. It is the might of industrial capital which backs weapons and foreign aid. No industrial capital, no weapons and foreign aid.

Wouldn't this just make the actual capitalist class stronger in the imperial core while making the countries the immigrants are coming from even more susceptible to western hegemony because of brain drain though

>>2765272
An example of such a program is the defense of guaranteed public employment, forced unionization of all workers, ensuring that all labor rights apply to all workers, ending the more intense exploitation of informal work, equalizing union wages and radically democratizing these unions by removing all barriers to union radicalization imposed by the bourgeois state or capitalist influence, guaranteeing the right to legal action for all workers to defend their rights with all costs passed on to the capitalist and the bourgeois state, guaranteeing solidarity in defending the labor rights of another worker, with all capitalists exploiting any worker being obliged to compensate that worker along with the union and the state, plus fines, and this will apply to everything and will be done so that capitalists go bankrupt to be collectivized and nationalized since they will be competing with state-owned companies in the market, which intends to cheapen consumer products in order to deliberately bankrupt private companies.

Another program that communists should defend in a bourgeois election is the nationalization of all banks, because no bank should have any independence or be free from politics. A workers' statistics council without "technocrats" will control inflation by balancing workers' wages with the price of food and workers' consumption so that no costs are passed on to the workers. Cheap credit will be used to benefit cooperatives, state-owned companies, and workers, and to indebt capitalists so they can be expropriated. All money abroad will be cut off for puppets of financial capital, both in weapons and debt, including non-profit organizations, to foster solidarity with workers worldwide. A country's public debt should be reviewed, as should all contracts with capitalists, prioritizing non-payment of the debt and abolishing any fiscal responsibility or spending cap used as an excuse for austerity. The abolition of all indirect taxes on workers' consumption and progressive direct taxes attacking capitalists, with no loopholes for bankruptcy, should be defended. All pensions must be public, not tied to profit, passing the cost on to the state and capitalists.

Bourgeois democracy must reach its limit so that popular workers' councils can be formed, a popular workers' militia for self-defense can be formed and gain experience in class struggle so that the masses are prepared by the vanguard for the revolutionary situation. There is no contradiction between revolutionary socialism and the use of reforms to bring about the collapse of the capitalist state; this is not revolution by peaceful means, but rather preparing the conditions for a revolutionary situation, and this means that it is forbidden to vote for parties that serve imperialist capitalism without exception.

If you don't believe what I've written, I will post four quotes from Marx and Engels with programs in a bourgeois democracy and one from the Bolsheviks by Lenin that prove my point. The first is in the text of the "Communist Manifesto," the second in "Principles of Communism," the third is in "Demands of the Communist Party in Germany," the fourth is in "The Programme of the Parti Ouvrier," and the last, by Lenin, is in "Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme," in chapter four, called "Draft of Revised Programme."

Here is the link if you want to read it:

From the Communist Manifesto in Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

From The Principles of Communism:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

In "Demands of the Communist Party in Germany":
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm

In "The Program of the Parti Ouvrier":
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm

Now the text of Lenin:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

>>2765311
The actual capitalist class tries its hardest to keep the garden walled though so I will just go with probably not

>>2764328
China

>>2763766
Immigration created Israel and the United States.

>>2764328
No climate model says that.