>yeah our subcultures and ideologies are rooted in the far right but we're actually anti-fascist!
Why are mainstream leftist retards like this?
fascists copied bolsheviks first
you are revisionist
Who cares what the leftwing of capital and libs do?
>everything counterculture is le fascist
My brother in christ, you're on /leftyPOL/
>>2769934Because those people are just as fascist, and just like them they don't understand the things they talk about, the so called "neopagans" have never even read any of the ancient pagan philosophy, and they just reuse it to badly fit their ideology, Mythology is the greatest exemple of it, for rightists it's the secret history of the white race, for leftists it's shitty fanfiction with fake characters, none of them have any understanding of the philosophy and thoughts behind paganism.
>yeah our subcultures and ideologies are rooted in the far right but we're actually anti-fascist!
In the case of skinheads it was actually the other way around.
<A skinhead or skin is a member of a subculture that originated among working-class youth in London, England, in the 1960s. It soon spread to other parts of the United Kingdom, with a second working-class skinhead movement emerging worldwide in the late 1970s. Motivated by social alienation and working-class solidarity, skinheads are defined by their close-cropped or shaven heads and working-class clothing such as Dr. Martens and steel toe work boots, braces, high rise and varying length straight-leg jeans, and button-down collar shirts, usually slim fitting in check or plain.
<The rise to prominence of skinheads came in two waves, with the first wave taking place in the late 1960s in the UK. The first skinheads were working class youths motivated by an expression of alternative values and working class pride, rejecting both the austerity and conservatism of the 1950s–early 1960s and the more middle class or bourgeois hippie movement and peace and love ethos of the mid to late 1960s. Skinheads were instead drawn towards more working class outsider subcultures, incorporating elements of early working class mod fashion and Jamaican music and fashion, especially from Jamaican rude boys.[1] In the earlier stages of the movement, a considerable overlap existed between early skinhead subculture, mod subculture, and the rude boy subculture found among Jamaican British and Jamaican immigrant youth, as these three groups interacted and fraternized with each other within the same working class and poor neighbourhoods in Britain.[2] As skinheads adopted elements of mod subculture and Jamaican British and Jamaican immigrant rude boy subculture, both first and second generation skins were influenced by the rhythms of Jamaican music genres such as ska, rocksteady, and reggae, as well as sometimes African-American soul and rhythm and blues.[2][3][4]
>>2769974Sharp borrows more from neo nazi skinhead than they do from 1960s skins
You are fucking dumb. SHARP predates your birth.
>>2769983Simply not true
t. has met OG Sharps still active today.
>>2769954Neopaganism is a thing because pf the far right but these mainstream leftist retards try to act like its always been left leaning
>Skinheads
Started as black african immigrant subculture around ska, dub, and reggae.
>goths
pretty sure it started as a grouping of the theatre kids and radlibs who got repelled out of punk due to its overt anti-establishment politics (anti-thatcher, anti-regan) and violent opposition to cops, private / unused property, etc. If there was also some fascist bleed over into goth music then enlighten me.
>black metal
"against everything" nihilist extreme metal genre. first wave was satanist imagery to trigger US christian conservatives who were trying to ban heavy metal music. second wave was a commie edge lord turf warring with a nazi edgelord in norway. nazi killed commie and nazis took this as a sign for targeted takeover of subgenre. This is the only example, next to specifically Laveyan satanism, which you could make a case for (but satanism predates Lavey and I'm not informed of the history past the 70s/60s). Yes Lavey was sympathetic to fascism. People also barely knew who he was until the 90s.
>Paganism
a religion like any other. In the 90s again nazis seize on this (norway, north germanics? Black metal Vikernes? anti-christian? nazi? pagan retvrn? OMG). Surely you must admit a pre-modern religion also has non-nazis, like any other.
But yes most of these, except SHARP, are ass.
>>2770063Paganism was seized by nazis far before the 90s, the Thule society being the most famous exemple.
Neopaganism is neither premodern nor a religion, it's not premodern because all of it's beliefs are reconstructed missinterpreations by 19th century historians, no modern day pagan actually follows the premodern tradition, I don't think anyone actually does animal sacrifices when that was a major part of paganism.
It's not a religion because no one actually believes in it, it's all purely aesthetics, for ultranationalists or for anarchists, it's the same idea of rejecting modern society by embracing an idealised vision of another society, that never actually existed. Rome wasn't a white paradise nor a LGBT one.
>>2770063Black metal used nationalist imagery and euronoymous wasn't even a actual communist
>>2770081Paganism of any form is no more of a LARP than Christianity or Islam yet the former gets ridiculously scrutinized while the latter two are just treated as a fact of life
Also the German Reich and Nazism in general (including Nazi Occultism) was overwhelmingly informed by Christianity and Christian moralism. That they occasionally slapped around the names of Odin and Thor didn't change the fundamental Christian nature of it all. The Ariosophists, Volkists, and other "pagans" that people cite as proof the Nazis were occultist believed that Christianity in the west was actually some kind of secret code that could unlock the "ancestral faith" of the Aryan race, all led under the White Christ who was the son of Odin.
Could it be said to still be closer to Lutheranism than neo-paganism?
>>2770110Christians and Muslims believe in christianity and Islam, "Pagans" don't believe in "paganism" Christianity and Islam are religions founded on belief, actual Paganism is founded on practicing ancestral rites that no modern pagan practices.
Thats why "paganism" is ridiculed, most people don't ridicule modern day polytheistic religions like Hinduism more then do monotheistic ones.
>>2770124>>2770128Depends on the nazis, there were plenty who were atheist for exemple, but sure, just shows that actual historical paganism of pre-christian Scandinavia has nothing to do with modern "paganism", ultimatly, modern pagans adopt the exact same vision of religion as did the montheists.
I think if you want an actual outlook on how pagans actually viewed religion, you can look at Julian the Aposthate (Last pagan emperor) writings, Paganism was founded on tradition and the repetition of ancestral rituals, there was no theology, Julian openly denounced mythology as nothing but fiction, for exemple. You'll never see this among christians.
>>2770329>Julian openly denounced mythology as nothing but fiction, for exemple. You'll never see this among christians.That's just Jordan Peterson. This kind of Jungian POV where myth occurs in the astral realm is actually pretty common among intellectuals.
>>2770333 (me)
Also Jesus is the word made flesh in the Christian religion. Also a lot of fascists like the Evola types in general embrace perennialist perspectives. Nazi style race science is also too materialist for a lot of fascists. This doesn't mean spiritual racism is better than secular racism of course.
>>2770333Not really, the equivalent would be not thinking Jesus did any miracles at all, Julian worshipped and sacrificed because he believed that Rome was glorious thanks to those sacrifices, but he worshipped the gods as concepts, not as entities. The Myths in themselves were for him nonsense invented by peasents to explain their situation. Admitedly he doesn't represent all pagans at all time, but he shows that paganism is based on tradition rather then belief, this tradition has been completly cut during the middle ages. I think another way of seeing this as by seeing the integration of other deities in the roman pantheon, even the Jewish god was considered to be real by the romans, despite it making no sense from the point of view of Judaism.
>huh actually it's fascist because they co-opted it first,you can't just co-opt it back,it's theirs now
ok
>>2770063>goths>pretty sure it started as a grouping of the theatre kids and radlibs who got repelled out of punk due to its overt anti-establishment politics (anti-thatcher, anti-regan) and violent opposition to cops, private / unused property, etc. If there was also some fascist bleed over into goth music then enlighten me. Early goths were also influenced by dub. Bauhaus was basically started as a dub band by some white English kids who listened to a lot of reggae. Goth overall is way more introspective though and doesn't run on anger, as a wider artistic tradition it's more tied up in Romanticism and the search for the sublime and stuff like that. A lot of goth songs are chirpy love songs really. (A lot of women are also attracted to it.) This is what makes it funny as an "edgy" thing since the substance to it is not edgy at all.
There is some fascist-adjacent goth stuff in the neofolk scene. Also you could say that Romanticism in the 19th century influenced a lot of conservatives because there was a medieval-revival aspect of it and it really praised human emotions and the arts over reason. But idk about drawing too close a thread because this kind of stuff seems to lend itself to a variety of political views.
>>2770370>idk about drawing too close a thread because this kind of stuff seems to lend itself to a variety of political viewsmy initial feeling toward the thread as well
you could easily make bad faith picture collages like
>>2770108 about a lot of things. Question is: does that represent a dominant tendency of the genre by and large? Or a particular microgenre of it? Of which place / localities? Of which wave / time? Otherwise it just comes of as slander with questionable motives.
Thinking especially in regards to goth here. >>2769934putting designs inside a circle is le fascism
>>2770364I see the problem. Personally, I see paganism as rooted in authority rather than tradition per se. IMO "neo-tradition" is a silly concept. So neo-paganism is perfectly sensible for fascists. You're right that paganism doesn't fit into the mold of religion as belief but IMO religion as coherent belief system is really a very modern concept. Historically, religion was basically just a part of the state and the legal system. Not really sure why Christianity should be respected more than paganism which is open about being rooted in authority more than anything else.
>>2770563Well the same goes for punk too. Like there's a lot of anarchist and anti-capitalist punk, but a lot of hardcore right-wing music has taken on punk as a form of expression. This video is an Italian punk band associated with Casa Pound which is a neofascist group in Italy. (I think this music is garbage but just to illustrate what I'm talking about.)
But an element of fascist politics is youth energy. It gets steered down this ultra-nationalist direction. That doesn't mean youth energy = fascist. Or music that has that energy = fascist. It's definitely a different aesthetic and mood than The Cure.
>>2770364>>2770570 (me)
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/17150Article of the kind of stuff I was talking about. Yes, Christianity became dominated early on by Biblical literalism. Not sure why that is more respectable than treating myths as allegory.
Bump
>>2769934Goth has never been right wing, like ever. If anything it has leaned left. Zoomers can't comprehend that people in the early 70s post-punk scene used offensive imagery for shock value it seems.
Pagans are mostly harmless retarded schizotypal hippies and metalheads for the most part. They shouldn't be encouraged but they're not a threat.
And in any case, so what if a movement has a right wing presence?
Why should leftists surrender whole spheres of art and culture and aesthetics to the right?
That's just granting the right an easy win in the cultural sphere, which translates into a broader propaganda win, and more people into that style of art being funneled into right wing ideology.
It's the moral obligation of the left to claim these things for our own, to push the right out.
If some young person gets into black metal for example and only sees Burzum and Nazi shit they're more likely to become a Nazi. If they get into it and see leftist bands, then maybe they'll head into a left wing pipeline. Don't underestimate the role of soft power and culture in developing a person's personality and beliefs.
Because mainstream western leftism is Nazism with an expanded definition of the master race
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