Why is it so hard for Marxist-Leninists to admit that the bureaucracy of their regimes end up constituting a class with their own interests different from ordinary workers?
Wage labourers in a factory: :OOOOOO
Wage labourers in a government administration building: :/
Because we have a materialist understanding of class
>>2770986which one has more power
>>2770983Because they imagine themselves as the bureaucrats.
>>2770992The one that controls entire economy.
my biggest complain about MLs is not that they are tyranical or exploitative, it's that they do nothing and lost the cold war due to cowardice.
>>2770983>a class with their own interests different from ordinary workers?then why did the bureaucrats aspire to become another bourgeoise? to abolish themselves as a class to become another?
>>2770986What was the wage of workers in the factory compared to upper echelons of bureaucracy?
>>2770983shut it chud, socialism is when M-C-P-C'-M' with a red flag
>>2771035>>2770992Neither of those things are definitive of class. Trotsky had it right when he called them a "privileged stratum" which could develop into a new ruling class. However this didn't really happen until the Gorbachev years. Until then they were an elite stratum with a (mostly) non-antagonistic relationship with the rank and file workers, which is why the USSR was still able to do so much for workers and progressive forces both at home and internationally.
>>2771044The fact that they dissolved it weighs against them being considered a class prior to the very end. If they were a ruling class then this necessarily implies they presided over a mode of production and state apparatus that was designed around their interests, and served them above all others. However if this was the case, then why would they dissolve that mode of production and state apparatus? The truth is they were limited by it, not fully empowered.
>>2770983>what is productive vs. unproductive labour<chegg m8 margsistsread a book
Voroshilov is the only og. bolshevik in this picture
Bureaucracy isn't ideal but so far we haven't seen any concrete alternative to running a revolutionary state unfortunately.
Even revolutionary Catalonia was developing a crypto-bureaucracy.
The situation of most revolutionary states of being at war or economicly encircled also doesn't help by facilitating a tendency twords organization and centralization.
>>2771080Does Bulganin count as an "OG bolshevik" if he joined the party before the revolution?Also that picture is falsely attributed. It's the vote to elect Khruschev as premier in 1958, not to remove him in 1964. Neither Voroshilov nor Bulganin were part of the Central Committee in 1964
As Plato writes in the Republic, the guardian class cannot be permitted to have wealth, and must undertake a vow of poverty to not be corrupted by perverse incentives. I would further add that all politicians must pledge a promise to the public and if they fail, they must immediately be arrested. What Stalin at least got right is that purges of the political class are absolutely necessary.
>>2771021100% yes. After the creation of the Tsar Bomb the USSR should have immediately nuked London without warning.
>>2771102>What Stalin at least got right is that purges of the political class are absolutely necessary.The problem was that Stalin wasn't killing officials because they were corrupt. He was killing them because he was believing fake disinfo made by his enemies who wanted to trick him into thinking that loyalists were enemy agents. This happened multiple times and even past the post-WW2 era.
>>2771170yeah, he was 5'5'' with a mickey mouse voice. manlets should not be allowed to power
>>2771102>What Stalin at least got right is that purges of the political class are absolutely necessary.The purges failed though, and the mechanisms used to carry them out were then immediately deployed in service of the bureaucrats. If you think this is an isolated case then look at Albania, where 40 years of regular purges and a handpicked successor still resulted in their own version of Glasnost before Hoxha was cold in the ground. Only proletarian democracy can defeat and contain the bureaucracy.
>>2771173>this is what lanklets believe.lack of air has ruined your brain, comit bend down.
Or maybe you can accept that all politics are bullshit
>>2771186Fuck off Fed. Just because you work for pedos and war criminals doesn't mean that everyone else wants to be a slave.
>>2771185co2 falls to the ground first big guy
you have to build the world you want to see. revolution is a 2nd job that will probably get you killed. i would much rather be ruled over by a marxist-leninist bureaucracy of former working class revolutionaries than by a bunch of genocidal geriatric pedophile billionaires like i currently am. capiche?
>>2771186>apolitical nihilismpassive acceptance of status quo
>>2770995This.
ML groups tend to attract people who believe they are special strategists who harbour revenge fantasies and feel they could do things better. They can't imagine for a second that they would be the ones working in a factory
>>2770983Because to admit that is to admit Marx's "adminstration of things" was BS and Marx is the least great defense of the industrial system.
>>2770995>>2771461wouldn't you much rather be ruled over by a marxist-leninist bureaucracy of former working class revolutionaries than by a bunch of genocidal geriatric pedophile billionaires like you currently are?
The solution is to make make everyone a bureaucrat
>>2771529yes and anyone who says otherwise is a cuckold
there are no other options it is literally establish a socialist dictatorship or get ruled by pedos and warmongers forever
ML's are also giant hypocrites they want a workers state yet they oppose democracy and want to make it so the working class has no say whatsoever in their country.
I think its just because they know that nobody likes them irl and they'd always lose.
>>2771461At least they can imagine still working post-revolution at all, anarkiddy.
>>2771563>ML's are also giant hypocrites they want a workers state yet they oppose democracyNonsense nobody ever said.
>But what about the POWER and PAY the Bureaucrats have!?
Interests are about end goals, not necessarily the means to those goals being equally distributed.
There's a lot of accusations ITT of MLs wanting to eliminate democracy via the mere existence of people with more power than others to make decisions, but in that there's the obvious suspicion that non-MLs are chronically overestimating how much the average worker wants to micromanage the society they exist in.
>>2770983A labor aristocracy one could say
>>2771703That would imply they produce value
>>2770995/thread
You never see any of these Internet MLs or Commies with pfps of Most Honorable Wrench-Turner in a factory or a humble tenement apartment. No no no, it's always the upscale neighborhoods of the administrative class and some highly-decorated general. Most of these people
>especially in the anglospherewould be rabid counter-revolutionaries if they found themselves in such a society as soon as the accountability and responsibility a truly collectivist state imposes on them.
These people think HOAs are worse than fascist dictatorships - oh, but they'd definitely thrive in the CCCP.
Lmao, pull the other one.
>>2771833Did you write this while on your way to snitch on an ML? lmao
>>2771890Notice how you didn't deny it.
>>2770983<Why is it so hard for human-biology reactionaries to admit that the brain neurons of their body-politic end up constituting a class with their own interests different from ordinary biological cells of muscle or connective tissue?the anarchist/ultraleftists's ideal society is to be like a flaccid jellyfish who cannot move beyond their proscribed progression of history given to them by ocean waves. Most animals are capable of conscious locomotion because of the subordination of mitochondria powerhouses of cells can be harnessed to move and adapt to changing material conditions
>>2771173> with a mickey mouse voicecommunism with Kingdom Hearts characteristics
>>2771833>These people think HOAs are worse than fascist dictatorships HOAs protect the suburban cops who are trained by Israel to do colonialist policing and slave catching in American zionist-nazi ghettos.
>oh, but they'd definitely thrive in the CCCPYou'd thrive in the Jeffrey Epstein class of Chinese dissident liberals
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2026/02/04/leaked-documents-reveal-tangled-web-epstein-chinese-dissidents-and-the-shadowy-arms-trade/ Unique IPs: 34