/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

I don't believe the public sector part

idk dude

there's lots of answers to the vietnam question I've seen

>dengism works, you fuckin idiot, trust the plan
or
>revisionism took hold of the Communist Party of Vietnam
or
>their regional dependency made them a bad candidate for socialist superpower
or
>they've always had a culture of merchants because they are a coastal nation, and that works the same whether they have a Communist or bourgeois party in power
or
>the function of Communist parties historically as opposed to their rhetoric is just to establish bourgeois sovereignty in ex-colonial countries, i.e. take a "backward" nation of peasants and turn it into an urban nation of proletarians. in this respect the communist party of vietnam was successful
etc. etc. etc.

idk how relevant "public sector size" is as a metric since even in countries with large public sectors you still have bourgeois dictatorship and a public-private "revolving door"

also keep in mind the SRV is not just a coastal nation, but a coastal nation in the South China Sea, where the USA and PRC still compete for naval hegemony. The SRV has a navy but is not anywhere close to being hegemonic in that region. Most Vietnamese trade goes through waters occupied by the USA and PRC. Isn't their lack of relative sovereignty over. Look at these competing claims over what are supposedly Vietnamese territorial waters. I think this is why neolibs become obsessed with bourgeois geopolitics. The rhetorical higher ideals of even the most socialist nations seem to disappear once these basic geopolitical questions come up. What is socialist sovereignty supposed to look like in this region?

Socialism with Americophilia characteristics

Western leftists can't understand honour

>>2796686
>>2796594
You guys might be right about some of this but there is still no excuse for supporting Israel

>>2796743
Why? Wtf does israel have to do with communism.

>>2796743
Vietnam "Supports" Israel? How so? Are you referring to trade or something else?

>>2796753
Nothing really, it is more of a moral issue.
>>2797010
Yeah, Every country should be sanctioning Israel.

>>2796581
>ML state cucks out to nationalism and opportunism
Woah who could see that coming????

>>2797244
>Yeah, Every country should be sanctioning Israel.
yes and in my fantasy every prole and prisoner should simultaneously declare a general labor strike, general rent strike, simultaneously, whether or not they actually have the reserves to make the strike last for more than a few days.

If tomorrow Vietnam said "I hereby sanction Israel" it would make very little difference.

>>2796581
all the surviving socialist countries got cucked after the 80s. they all had to open up to survive due to the collapse of soviet trade

>>2797284
also if you outlaw trade with a country, it just results in a black market of tax dodging smugglers, and most countries would rather just trade above board and tax it for revenue, rather than spend tax revenue on hunting and punishing smugglers

>>2796581
Consider this another victory for realpolitik: using the far power as leverage against the near power. And no, China isn't anti-American. Neither is Russia. It's time to grow up and look at how the world actually works.

>>2797344
More like a victory for global capital and bourgeois reaction

>>2797367
I can't wait until we have a one world government so we just do whatever India and China decides.

>>2796581
They never really cared about communism or socialism. It was just the only avenue left for them to achieve independence.

>>2797402
Which was historically progressive and helped proletarianize the country

>>2797344
You will flayed by the revolution

>>2797418
Communism being conflated with this process is bad actually

If you visit Vietnam, it becomes obvious very quickly it's not socialist at all. Everyone is out there trying extract as much money as possible from foreigners and other Vietnamese because their average yearly wage is less than $5000. People talk about crypto and new ways to make money all the time.
The government doesn't make much effort to build infrastructure (of course decades of war didn't help), it's very polluted, people burn trash to avoid paying for trash disposal services, teenagers on motorbikes in Saigon routinely snatch bags and phones, or even kidnap dogs. At night in the old quarter of Hanoi, men and women will show you pictures of naked ladies to entice you into prostitution, try to sell you drugs, if not simply scam you or rob you in a back alley. The police doesn't care much as long as they get their cut, corruption is widespread.

I don't think China is truly socialist, and I have nothing against drugs, but the government of China is much more functional, and actively try to improve the country and infrastructure, get rid of the corruption and pollution. Vietnam seems like it's how China was 25-30 years ago.

Also Vietnam is Anti-Chinese because China has always tried to fuck over them, there is a long history of China invading Vietnam, the last attempt was under Deng Xiaoping. But more importantly, there is the South China Sea dispute (protip: call it the West Sea in Vietnam). So Vietnamese people have a really negative view of Chinese people, especially outside big cities.
That being said, a substantial part of the current economic development of Vietnam is fueled by Chinese companies installing assembly plants, so the Vietnamese can't be completely against China, it's a delicate balance for them and they need to do business with China. But they have a trade deficit with China, while it should the inverse as Vietnam is less developed.

Despite all the negative things I said, Vietnam is a cool country, people are very nice and friendly, and I hope they further develop and fix their issues, and they are in a better position to do it compared to Cambodia or Laos. It's just not an epic socialist paradise, it's a normal third-world capitalist country, and >>2797402 is right.

>>2797671
>a country isnt socialist because they try to rip off white people

redditor.

Vietnam just invested 135 billion in public infrastructure between 2025-2030 btw

>>2796581
Watched a thing about textbooks being renationalized, so I think the neoliberal experiment in Vietnam is coming to an end.

>>2797671
>So vietnam is just trashier thailand with socialist characteristics
You're reinforcing the view nearly all westerners have of vietnam, (except you didn't mention landmines)

>>2797694
I love how every time I describe my first hand experience with Vietnam, people here who probably never visited like you always cope with "hahaha they rip off westoids u mad??" (ignoring the fact they also scam Vietnamese people from other regions). Zero arguments about how the current economic system is socialist in Vietnam.

Look at this random article from Viet Nam News: https://vietnamnews.vn/economy/1780366/businesses-cut-costs-to-retain-market-share.html
It keeps mentioning "profits", "market share", "market rates", "market stabilization", "businesses plan". We aren't talking about a minor part of the economy or niche products, we are talking about food. Where is the socialism in there?
Also European countries invest in their infrastructure all the time, are they socialist too? The Hanoi subway system is taking a long time to develop compared to the development in any tier 1/2 city in China.

>>2797701
Maybe this view exists for a reason, if thousands of people who visited came to the same conclusions?
I think Vietnam will develop a lot in the next few decades though and might look pretty different in the future, I'm not completely negative and they had it really rough during the 20th century, they do what they can right now.

>>2797737
Its because you don't understand what state capitalism is or how it is a transitional period between non-state capitalism and socialism. Visiting as a tourist isnt going to give you an overview of this, your analysis is entirely vibes.

>>2797746
It is not even state capitalism, it's a "mixed economy" with both public and private companies, just like Singapore, Norway, France, Sweden, Greece…
Look at this: https://www.vietnam.vn/en/dong-gop-to-lon-cua-doanh-nghiep-nha-nuoc-sau-40-nam-doi-moi
State Owned Entreprises represents 30% of the Vietnamese's GDP, in Indonesia it's 50-60% (https://www.adb.org/news/op-ed/reimagining-indonesia-s-state-owned-enterprises-ahmed-m-saeed-and-erick-thohir), in Norway it's 35%.

So it's not even a state capitalist economy, it's just a normal capitalist economy with some SOEs and a majority of private companies, especially big ones like Vingroup. My analysis might have started from vibes, but looking at the data confirm them rather than your vibes backed by nothing. Đổi Mới meant Vietnam embraced markets and privately-owned capitalist companies since 1986.

>>2797597
people on here can only say what communism ISN'T

inb4 "the real movement that abolishes the present state of things" which is the most vague definition that could be applied to any process in society

>>2797671
>Despite all the negative things I said, Vietnam is a cool country, people are very nice and friendly, and I hope they further develop and fix their issues, and they are in a better position to do it compared to Cambodia or Laos
>It's just not an epic socialist paradise, it's a normal third-world capitalist country
Trvke. Vietnam is probably the best outcome for a post-colonial southeast asian country (being party destination like Thailand doesn't count). I work with pinoys and they wish the Phillipines had its shit together like Vietnam

>>2797764
That’s because definitions as Engles correctly argued are unscientific nonsense. Communism as “the real movement” is a description of communism in practice and is pretty self explanatory and easy to understand if you’re not a drooling retard

>>2796581
VN hated china not usa.

Meanwhile Vietnam is one of the few countries on the planet without US military bases or lilypads.
Where are you from OP? Some western vassal state permitting US agents to kill people on your soil without ability to be prosecuted by your country? Or, at greatest irony, a yankee? Will you do 0.000001% of the average Vietnamese to free your country from finance-monopoly capitalist rule or are you the type of fatass that would've died from a heart attack when the opportunity finally arises for you to take revolutionary action?
Also notice that we still have no source for the "smaller public sector" claim. Why is this chauvinist trash not bumplocked already?

>>2797853
>>2797746
>>2797694
At this point these kinds of leninist should just create a new and distinct ideology. It would be more representative if they embraced state-capitalism with leninism as their ideology given that it represents them more accurately

>>2796581
As other anons have pointed out, it's just that marxism-leninism seemed to be the more functioning ideology for third world countries to reach developed nation status back in the days.

>>2797874
How's it going in the vanguard party building socialism in your urbanized hi-tech imperialist country, bud? If only a small country on the other side of the planet that freed itself from western colonialism and is still cleaning up the natural geography from leftover bombs could do the work for you, right? Then you would've done it already!
I hope a group of racialized service workers who make up 70% of your countries low income workforce to clean your asses, write your software and serve you warm food by doorbell kills you with keychains, utensils, bunt objects in general.

>>2797884
>Then you would've done it already!
I never really understood the thid worldist argument. If it is in my class interest to keep capitalism then why exactly should I be supporting communism ? Or, could it be that each country has their conditions and unique variance of their mode of production, as such creating different local conditions and class interests ?

>kills you with keychains, utensils, bunt objects in general.
I'd actually rather have them deliver my uber eats. In fact, I think I'll order tonight, leave a 1 star, and say that the indian delivering it took a bite to get him banned.
It's really too bad, had you not sperged out, he would've been able to send more remittances to his family…

>>2797768
>definitions are reactionary, you'll know it when you see it
how scientific

>>2797853
Making shoes and plastic toys for treatlers is scum behavior, they’re the addict and Vietnam is the dealer

>>2797913
People need shoes. Vietnamise policy of producing shoes for foreigners guarantees national industry. Now all the money is pouring in to build factories and creating high wage labor.

>>2797762
China has also embraced markets, they are still communist ideologically, as are Vietnam.

>>2797917
People dont normally need shoes, their feet are soft and weak because of Vietnamese dealers who sold them shoes in the first place preventing them to develop callus.

>>2797917
You could justify selling meth and fentanyl with the same reasoning

>>2797981
Correct

>>2797737
Westerners get scammed everywhere, I evaded attempted scams in both Beijing and Costa Rica.
Americans also fall prey to scams in Europe.
It's the curse of the tourist and not a reflection of the country in particular

>>2797957
They're as ideologically communist as Friedrich Ebert in 1919

>>2797988
They literally reaffirmed their commitment to ML ideals in the most recent 2026 congress suck auygh

>>2797994
Written documents are worthless, show me the material reality

>>2798085
Crazy that you haven't overthrown your government yet after so many asian countries already shut so many overseas military bases all those decades ago. Are you about to, or?

>>2798006
also the material reality is that most people in Vietnam own a house, just like in China, the reasons why wages can be so low - people own things, it allows them to be competitive and as stated above, invest 100s of billions of dollars back into the country.

>>2798085
How many fascist imperialist states have you militarily defeated

>>2798096
>the westerner knows better than the 10s of million members of the communist party of Vietnam
The vietnam party members know quite well their own interest I believe. Us marxists call it "class interests".

>>2798099
>>2798123
Literally what's the relevance lmfao ?

>>2798118
Awesome, you’re America in the 1960s, fucking sick dude I love the real movement

>>2798327
you WILL own a house you WILL have high speed rail

>>2798339
God bless Amerikkka

>>2798096
>Ad populum+standpoint libshittery
You will be skinned alive after the global proletarian revolution, dengoid

>>2798350
The material conditions will continue to gradually improve and your cope fantasy will never manifest

>>2798356
>The material conditions will continue to improve
The rate of profit tends to fall like Dengoid piggies from buildings tall

>>2797994
The USA and Western Europe have also reaffirmed their commitment to democracy, freedom and human rights, we truly live in the best of possible worlds.

>>2797764
>inb4 "the real movement that abolishes the present state of things" which is the most vague definition that could be applied to any process in society
Neoliberalism was the real communism that abolished the former state of things (Keynesianism). Looks like the next communism will be Islamic idealism.

>>2797994
How the fuck do communists here fall so easily for propaganda?

>>2798787
propaganda is just political art, it can be factual or misleading and needs to be evaluated on its own merits.

>>2798797
And yet it's presented as fact.

>>2798800
I dont know if its objective reality, I just trust the 10's of millions of sincere communists in Vietnam to keep the ship in the right direction.

>>2797994
it always shocks people when i tell them xi has a doctorate in marxist law

>>2798818
>Posting Xi in a thread about Vietnam
At least there are three 8s in your post number.

>why does a weaker capitalist nation act cucked towards stronger capitalist nations
Because the weak do what they must etc etc. Don't worry, the Vietnamese ruling class cucks themselves to your beloved capitalist nation China as well, so you can sleep easy tonight Mr.Nationalist.