No seriously. Why did veganism and animal rights activism seemingly die out entirely from the left?
I’m old enough (38) to remember when veganism was practically a litmus test for determining if you were a principled leftist or not, especially in anarchist and Maoist spaces. Nowadays it seems like no one under 28 is vegan anymore, or gives a shit about animal rights.
Having become an anarchist as a teenager in the early 2000s, I fully remember how interwoven the radical left was with the animal rights and vegan movements. Gen X and xennial comrades in particular were very dogmatic about this issue, arguably more than they were most issues concerning US imperialism. But the younger generation doesn’t seem to care at all. Why?
For the record, I was never vegan and I eat an omnivore diet now, but still.
>why did inherently impotent consumer politics die out as the world economy goes to shit
idk
>>2797226If the house's foundation is collapsing what's the use of moving the furniture around?
>>2797226>I’m old enough (38) to remember when veganism was practically a litmus test for determining if you were a principled leftist or notthis was never the case, you were in an echo chamber. what even is a "leftist" this thread is utter bait. I have been vegan on and off and it was a pure health/lifestyle choice and I never saw it as central to communism.
>>2797226>Nowadays it seems like no one under 28 is vegan anymoreI'm 29 and vegan.
But I agree with your sentiment that it feels like there's less of us these days, despite the greater availability of vegan versions of everything and their reduction in cost.
>>2797255a lot of vegans are just quietly vegan as a lifestyle choice without making it a part of their politics or personality
>>2797290I imagine this is actually the case. The lifestylism critique was taken to heart, thus it's become more personal conduct rather than a political one.
Individualist lifestyle veganism is cringe
Eco-Stalinist veganism is based.
Died of malnutrition lol
>>2797360this been debunked a million times. you just gotta take supplements and eat the right kind of vegetables. there are plenty of omnivores who are also malnourished because they don't take supplements or eat a wide enough variety of foods.
There’s this gang of vegans who go around downtown here every Saturday challenging people to debates and trying to gain converts
Usually they debate drunk retards who just stumbled out of a bar and don’t know what planet they’re on, and they have all these schizo beliefs about vegan cosmology and Jesus being a vegan but the vatican covered it up and aliens and bla bla
It’s super funny so I’m like a groupie ev&doe I’m really an omnivore, but they don’t need to know that 🤫
>>2797226The rise in cost of living + the fact that veganism / animal liberation isnt at the top of the priority chain for principled marxists. End of exploitation brings about the end of animal exploitation.
Given that there are more vegans now than ever before, I dont think your experience is representative of reality at large.
most animals rights activist agitation I saw was from i*rael and c*echia
>>2797381>The rise in cost of living + the fact that veganism / animal liberation isnt at the top of the priority chain for principled marxists. End of exploitation brings about the end of animal exploitation.This isn't a very nuanced take because a great way to bring about the end of human exploitation is to stop feeding 70% of our food to animals. Further, factory farm workers are heavily exploited and liberating from their unique form of exploitation requires abolishing factory farming.
I think veganism cannot be more than a lifestyle choice until communism has been established, unless vegans start to be specially oppressed and become an oppressed minority. Otherwise veganism as a political movement has to wait until the contradictions that society will face in high-stage communism appear (transhumanism etc.). Then veganism will become extremely relevent as a part of the "life everywhere" faction who want to extend life to every possible part of the universe. Vegan nuclear war.
>>2797226It's just part of our elite institutions now, it doesn't need to be annoying to push ahead its agenda.
>>2797290I agree, alot of vegans (especially marxists) don't actually bring their veganism outside of matter of subjective values, as vegan myself I believe it's impossible to actually bring unity in action when we begin to split on matter of individual values, also without any real movement or means which can lead to realisation of communist programme veganism is irrevelant because if we don't dismantle oppressive state of being among people itself then we can't except people to care about lifes of animals when these people actually struggle with their own.
>>2797489>It's just part of our elite institutions nowThe institution heavily subsidises farming to encourage you to buy meat and dairy and literally puts laws in place preventing vegan produces from using certain terms like "milk" or "sausage"
It's lifestylism
>>2797226It's not the 90s anymore. Class politics are back on the menu. Fuck off lifestyles.
>>2797588
Only corpse eaters die of malnutrition. Ead da fuggin' salad, bloodmouf.
>>2797521Farming is subsidized because there is a semblance of democracy left, subsidizing local industry is popular policy. Vegans products need to be labeled as what they because of laws against lying about what you're selling, shame you get fucked by consumer protection laws.
Blackrock lost millions on artificial meat, and Blackrock is just a "private" arm of the deep state
Veganism is no longer anti-establishment. It's become incredibly corporate with every major food company looking to capitalize on vegan products. I can go to the gentrifier cafe in my neighbourhood and see at least eight different plant milk options (soy, oat, almond, coconut, macademia, hazelnut, cashew, pistachio). Where's the rebellion in that?
Since 2019, there's also been a wave of "no longer vegan" YouTube videos and blog posts. People are becoming a lot more open about the problems they dealt with while on a vegan diet which de-romanticizes the lifestyle.
Maybe it's just me but I've noticed a lot of vegans cheat in that they will eat animal products when visiting their parents or something, or they'll occasionally eat cheese or ice cream whenever they have a craving for it. At the May Day afterparty this year I saw three comrades whom I know claim to be vegan eating the cow's milk ice cream. I guess they had no issue with doing so as long as they weren't the ones buying the ice cream.
With how bad shit is getting for the average person, maybe people just stopped giving a fuck about animal stuff?
The focus on vegan activism of western leftist does feel to me to stem from a point of privilege
>>2797226>Gen X and xennial comrades in particular were very dogmatic about this issue,Lifestyle politics were big in the 90s largely because the Cold War just ended and everyone accepted capitalism was going to be here forever. Same reason identity politics got big around the same time.
>>2797375>There’s this gang of vegans who go around downtown here every Saturday challenging people to debates and trying to gain convertslmao at least it makes a chancge from christian missionaries. i wonder if they have had any success
>>2797226>I’m old enough (38) to remember when veganism was practically a litmus test for determining if you were a principled leftist or notWhat?
>ancom flagOkay…
>>2797670farming is subsidized in the US because it's a major branch of american imperialism, deliberately undercutting farmers and driving them further into poverty in targeted countries to force foreign populations to become reliant on american food, threatening them with mass starvation if they try to break from american interests.
>>2797226Fuck the lifestylists, all other animals are inferior to humans, soviets decide what to do.
>>2802625Death to leftism, death to post-leftism, fuck Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Makhno.
The school starts with Carlo Cafiero and Malatesta, takes analysis objectively made of Marx on the capitalist mode of production. Fuck the natlib retards, lesser evils and class collaborators.
arrest any and all self-described vegans and put them into a reeducation camp like how China does with muslims. Make them eat animal products and meat.
VEGANS WILL BE REINTEGRATED INTO SOCIETY
Veganism was never "radical". There are Nazi vegans.
>>2803548Great argument. Please do not look up how many communists went over to the nazi party back in 1930s.
>>2802186>I can go to the gentrifier cafe in my neighbourhood and see at least eight different plant milk options (soy, oat, almond, coconut, macademia, hazelnut, cashew, pistachio). Where's the rebellion in that?The only reason anyone goes vegan today is the satisfaction in knowing you're on the "right side of history".
>>2803552It's actually because of ethics. Veganism is the morally superior diet and also the least wasteful but it is sadly an unhealthy diet.
>>2803556>but it is sadly an unhealthy dietI dont know why people keep repeating that when they can see with their own eyes its not so. And if you dont like anecdotal evidence, you can also see studies.
>>2803560medi. diet is healther. if your healthy diet requires supplements you're doing it wrong bud
youre asking a bunch of zoomer retards whose entire worldview is shaped by the internet yes veganism was closely aligned with grassroot leftist movements, anarchism in particular, right up until around the 2010s when it was fully co-opted by neoliberalism. sound familiar, class reductionist sisters?
>>2803560All real vegans i know are either emaciated or fat and diabetics (too much carbs). Non animal based products are also extremely poor in actually assimilable nutrients and vitamins so they all have to take suplements after a few year of going vegan.
>>2803570Tell me why taking B12 supplement is unhealthy, but feeding it to animals you keep in tiny cages all their life so you can then eat them isnt.
>>2803589Open google scholar, look up studies, you will see that vegans are on average healthier than carnists.
>>2803605Because vegans are more upper class with everything that comes with it, and being emmaciated is still healthier on the short term than being a fat fuck and lots of people are fat (from too much carbs).
>>2797670"local industry" like Smithfield Foods (america's largest pork producer, owned by hong kongers) or AgReserves Inc (owned by the LDS, foreign operations in 6 countries) lmao
>>2803586you don't know what neoliberalism is.
>>2803617>Because vegans are more upper class Give me a source, where I am from most vegan restaurant are on a cheaper side, located mostly in working class neighbourhoods.
>vegans are emanciateSouces faggot.
>being emmaciated is still healthier on the short term than being a fat fuckExact opposite, emanciation causes medical complications a lot faster than obesity.
>>2803556Yeah that's still virtue signalling, idiot.
>>2797226Gen Xers cared about lifestyle politics, e.g. veganism, dumpster diving, CrimethINC.
Millennials cared about idpol and Tumblr SJW-type shit.
Zoomers care about Palestine and whatever TikTok tells them to care about.
>>2803570This. Even vegetarianism is kinda eurocentric cuz of lactose intolerance but I guess you still have (unfertilized) eggs
>>2803640Millennials cared about protesting the Iraq War and the Occupy Movement until corporate media astroturfed the SJW stuff.
>>2803637It would be virtue signaling if you do stuff like, talk about how much you care about animal rights or environment, but arent vegan. If you actually are, that is just a virtue.
>>2797226I personally think it's considerate of vegans to shut the fuck up when there's a genocide going on. they're probably right about consuming animals, but humanity isn't enlightened enough to stop consuming the proletariat of oppressed nations.
>>2803552Even if this is true: you take pride in being on the
wrong side of history. You and your ilk (e.g. those who care enough to argue against veganism as opposed to just ignoring them) are
vice signallers, which is infinitely worse.
>>2803665How is this any different than dumpster diving or whatever? Refusing to dumpster dive is "vice signalling" too?
>>2803669>refusing to consume the flesh of animals is basically the same as dumpster divinglobotomite or baiter, call it
>>2803662I personally think it's considerate of palestinians to shut the fuck up when there's a factory farming going on. they're probably right about settler colonialism, but humanity isn't enlightened enough to stop consuming the animals
>>2803670How is it any different? Both are ultimately consumer activities. You might as well say that not wearing shoes because most shoes are created in unethical work environments/sweatshops is a moral necessity for leftists.
>>2803674one involves industrial slaughter for no reason other than "it tastes good" despite its immense cost on literally everyone else who lives, we all suffer as a result of the flesh industry, whether you want to admit it or not, would you willingly say "yeah the flesh industry results in large amounts of environmental destruction, is incredibly costly and doesn't really add up to much…. but at least i get my hamburger" or would you condemn it? even work to reduce its scale?
>>2803674I dont know mate, if some mass murderer offered to sell me shoes made out of skin of his victim I would probably refuse.
You are being purposefully obtuse, you fully recognize that there is difference between moral weight and impact of different kinds of market relations. If I pay a pimp to let me rape a 12 year old, you wouldnt pull the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" card, would you? Or a zionist who goes out of their way to buy from israely companies. Or investing into weapon manufacturing company. Or getting a job as a military drone operator.
>>2803673>>2803680>vegan challenge: make a case for broad adoption of disordered eating as a lifestyle without resorting to contrarianism, or appeals to idealism or asceticism>failed in under 100 postsgg. chin up. better luck next time.
>>2803684>muh idealismthe appeal is that it's literally destroying the planet so you can eat your burgers, it is rapidly destroying everything on this planet so you can have a tasty cut of flesh
>>2803669Idiotic comparison, but anyone who goes around talking about how they
don't dumpster dive and goes around getting into arguments with those who do is a freak with nothing better to do with their life, so while they aren't vice signalling per se, they are credibly signalling that they're a worthless freak.
>>2803685that's a ridiculous oversimplification. vegan food is commonly created by heavily processing soy, wheat, rice, or corn which are all monoculture crops typically grown on cleared land. industrial farming of these crops is water intensive and typically uses GMOs and liberal amounts of glyphosate. vegan food is also pretty commonly fortified for calories with palm oil which encroaches on critically endangered orangutans.
>oh but I eat organicorganic doesn't mean anything WRT food. there is no legal framework for being organic, there are various certification bodies, but what do they do besides take a payment and licence a brandmark? even if they could be trusted, agriculture and animal husbandry have been intertwined since the dawn of mankind: animal eats the crops, shits on the crops, the crops grow. this has two main consequences: 1. meat/poultry/fish and produce are byproducts of each other, 2. there's no historical vegan cultures that weren't created by famine, deprivation, or ascetism.
the next problem is scale. imagine the shitlib vegan utopia just happens one day and we completely dismantle the abattoirs and there's no real world consequences to this, and we could actually consume the wastage that is currently used for animal feed. we're still killing animals: we're shooting and baiting pests, we're running them over in trucks, we're still threshing and baking them into loaves of organic vegan bread, we're still working them to death in the fields, still poisoning their habitats with emissions and runoff, and we're still culling surplus lambs raised for wool.
everything is destroying the world. the crunchie granola vegans get to make their rarefied "ethical" choices by spending enormous amounts of money on sweet lies. how do these lofty utopian goals get achieved in a world with nuclear weapons and without starving burrundi or bangladesh? never ever been explained, it must just be the rest of the world's problem.
>>2803686you're a vegan but you can eat my meat.
>>2803621go on then zoomtranshumanist enlighten me
>>2803669>>2803687dumpster diving is fucking awesome. never had so many fancy cheeses, over date wines, baked goods, and fine deli meats. it was especially good around the markets where the packers would just give you a box and tell you to go ham at the end of the day.
it's compatible with marxism: at it's core marxism states that it's inevitable that humanity will live on the surplus produced by inquiry and industry. the only problem with doing it right now is it's nearly completely incompatible with holding down a job and you outgrow climbing fences, breaking locks, and hiding from security way too fast.
if you're living that life right now enjoy it. just have a backup plan.
>>2803621FUCKIGN NIG NOG russian saboteur transhumanist ZOOMTARD TRANTARD FAGGOT UYGHUR CUNT RETARD TRANTARD FAGGOT NOG ZIOCUCK TRANSTARD ZOOMtranshumanist CUNT
>>2803685>>2803686>>2803694genuinely disappointed you guys got dismissed so easily, western veganism is an 80 year tradition. in that time no research or literature worth a shit has been produced. nothing like kapital or IPCC synthesis reports. no economic or climate modelling to back up wild claims. very little that even acknowledges the third world and it's relationship to livestock and western consumption.
you guys have made a lot of graphic films designed to upset people and make them feel guilty and sick. this will never work. it's puritanism. look at abstinence education.
next, you're shitlibs: the reports I did find take a complex multidimensional problem that cuts across history, culture, economics, and biology, and then only analyses it through the lens of consumer trends and individual choice.
you can't change the diet of 9bn people with earthlings and veggie patties.
for starters you need to make the "right choice" have clear, immediate, material benefits. you also need to radically change the way various cultures perceive animals, difficult in wealthy nations, impossible for the half of the global population living like gummo in rural poverty. you need to challenge entrenched interests in meat production, their money, AND their employees. finally you need to make systemic changes to actually ram this thing through: good luck gaining that authority, let alone wielding it, let alone not being responsible for a famine or two.
get your shit together for fucks sakes. fuck outta here till you do.
Quiet veganism is winning out as class politics takes higher priority. Loud veganism simply cannot move beyond shitlibery for its own good.
>>2797381Veganism is cheaper tho at least in america and most places unless you are in a village were everyone is a goat hearder or something
>>2804036If its cheaper in USA with its insane rancher handouts, its cheaper everywhere.
All the people attacking veganism ITT are pathetic. Do comrades not feel a sense of commitment anymore? Part of being a principled leftist means giving up your comforts and boundaries for something greater than yourself.
>>2804118The thing is you are not really giving up anything. At most there is less fast food places you can go to.
>>2804118I don’t have the energy for veganism. I’m already autistic and disabled and have a restricted diet as it is. I can’t go out of my way to be an even pickier eater.
>>2804118I'm not convinced veganism is a left wing ideology. I don't see the virtue in ignoring the impoverished to liberate livestock. I haven't seen vegans do the legwork to actually make their case effectively, but I have seen them spread racist tropes about other cultures and the racial minorities that work in the meat industry.
just because they have the aesthetic of radical politics with agitprop, direct action, and protest doesn't mean they have a theory of change or even know wtf they're talking about.
there's a lot of people willing to do the restrictive diet, somewhat fewer willing to raid factory farms, absolutely nobody is willing to sit down and write more than 40 pages. everybody's willing to sacrifice for animal liberation until it's time to spend years of their lives meticulously researching and documenting the history, the principles, the theory of change, political platform, and scientific basis for the movement. there's a lot of cookbooks though. the eclecticism and moralising is thoroughly unserious and self defeating. somehow vegans embody all the worst traits of western leftist tradition with a goal that is so impossible it's basically pointless.
worst thing is I'm not even attacking vegans, just prompting them to make a case.
>>2804648>you'll see it has nothing to do with anti-capitalism or health or resources or even the climate, but MORALITYAnti-capitalism or health or resource distribution are moral issues as well.
>>2804649We don't critique capitalism based on morality.
>>2804651Yes we fucking do, even if you do immanent critique of capitalism you critique it using moral standards it sets up for itself. Fuck off. Obviously I expected this fucking response from another buzzword spewing retard whose understanding of marxism comes exclusively from memes.
One day probably veganism will make sense and be an easier goal but for now fuck you we have other things to worry about. /thread
>>2804659Marxism is not a moral critique of capitalism.
>>2804659Where in Capital does Marx ever claim capitalism is unjust?
They died early deaths from lack of protein.
>>2804674Or lack or iron.
Or lack of calcium.
Or lack of B12 (but they usually take supplements for that).
Or lack of vitamin D (which is an animal hormone).
I was vegan for seven years and went back to eating yoghurt, eggs, and fish because I was insanely nutrient deficient.
>>2804671>>2804672>Where capitalist production is fully naturalised among the Germans (for instance, in the factories proper) the condition of things is much worse than in England…>In all other spheres, we, like all the rest of Continental Western Europe, suffer not only from the development of capitalist production…>Alongside the modern evils, a whole series of inherited evils oppress us…>We should be appalled at the state of things at home…>her commissioners of inquiry into the exploitation of women and children…>There it will take a form more brutal or more humane….>…summons as foes into the field of battle the most violent, mean and malignant passions of the human breast, the Furies of private interest…From then fucking preface.
>>2804686You lack reading comprehension. Marx is not criticizing capitalism for being evil he is simply stating facts. German factories being worse than English factories is simply a fact. Capitalist production causes suffering that's also a fact. Capitalism exploits women and children that's a fact. On and on it goes. He literally says:
>To prevent possible misunderstanding, a word. I paint the capitalist and the landlord in no sense couleur de rose [i.e., seen through rose-tinted glasses]. But here individuals are dealt with only in so far as they are the personifications of economic categories, embodiments of particular class-relations and class-interests. My standpoint, from which the evolution of the economic formation of society is viewed as a process of natural history, can less than any other make the individual responsible for relations whose creature he socially remains, however much he may subjectively raise himself above them. The individual morality doesn't matter. These are objective economic conditions causing a clash of class interests. This is science not morality. Marx is not saying that capitalism should be abolished because it's bad and mean and rude, or because x factory owner or y investor is "evil". He's saying it should be abolished because it is in the self interest of the workers who are being subjugated by the bourgeoisie.
>>2804686Don't bother anon. I only visit this place out of jaded spite, these days. The number of people on here like you and I who actually read and understand the dialectical materialism at hand dwindled off to like 1% long ago. Shithole website full of leftcom pseuds.
>>2804705You didn't read the full text moron.
>In all other spheres, we, like all the rest of Continental Western Europe, suffer not only from the development of capitalist production, but also from the incompleteness of that development. Alongside the modern evils, a whole series of inherited evils oppress us, arising from the passive survival of antiquated modes of production, with their inevitable train of social and political anachronisms.>antiquated modes of production Marx is saying that Western Europe has a major problem because the capitalist revolution has NOT BEEN FULLY COMPLETED and there are still remnants of feudalism existing. He even joking remarks:
>We suffer not only from the living, but from the dead. Le mort saisit le vif! Do you think Marx, an atheist, believes in the actual existence of ghosts or zombies? God you Americans are so fucking stupid. Kill yourself immediately you are too stupid to be a Communist.
>>2804647look, I'm not convinced, but good on you for trying. the arguments need more space to develop, please keep going.
I've given you some editorial feedback because this is barely a literature review and reads like undergrad homework.
took the references at face value because I'm not getting paid to edit your shit, but they're way out of date. you shouldn't be citing shit from 2015.
>>2804702>He's saying it should be abolished because it is in the self interest of the workers who are being subjugated by the bourgeoisie."Should be" is moral language unless you're giving practical advice like "if you want to live longer, you should quit smoking." The claim of amoral Marxist critique is curious considering how much of Capital is him documenting working class misery, like those women and children in the fields walking many miles, teenage girls getting impregnated, but it's all worth it because capitalists can pay them worse wages than the men. it's like hey Marx I don't give a shit I'm an amoral cog remember.
>>2804710>Marx is saying that Western Europe has a major problem because the capitalist revolution has NOT BEEN FULLY COMPLETEDHe is contrasting it with "modern evils", as made clear with the citation you posted. Also what argument are you trying to develop here, that marxism permits moral condemnation of past modes of production, but not of capitalism specifically? We can see what you are doing, you are a smug moron who havent read any of this before you started trying to quote mine for the purpose of internet argument.
>>2804702>The individual morality doesn't matterSeparate conversation altogether, he passes moral judgement over the system, contrary to the claims you half-wits made:
<Marxism is not a moral critique of capitalism<Where in Capital does Marx ever claim capitalism is unjust?>>2804711I didnt ask you to fix typos, this is a pre-edited version, but to engage with argument. It is a magazine article, not a scientific work, I am not going to bother sourcing self-evident claims nobody disputes like "vegan products are growing market". Also if you are going to pretend to be a very smart-ass editor, try to actually read the text and not spam "citation? citation? where is a citation"? on things that are cited in the very next sentence, or on logical arguments or hypothetical scenarios. Engage with the fucking core arguments, which is that a.) individual consumer choices and collective political action go hand in hand more often than not (which I sourced so go fuck yourself); b.) socialist and vegan movements share the same political enemies; c.) market economy makes fully vegan society nigh impossible, while planned economy more likely.
>>2804718it's amoral and practical on the basis that workers lead a social existence complex enough to organise and revolt meaning that their immiseration has practical consequences.
>>2804728the core argument is that communism and veganism are sypathetic, but you jumped to that conclusion in the article you wrote. my commentary highlights the places where you used assumption or skated on specific details.
I asked for something in depth that outlined the entire vegan movement and you gave me six pages of nothing and proved you don't give a shit about communism except as a vector for your pet utopian fantasy.
>everyone knows the vegan food industry is growingthat's a prime example of something that does need citation. how do I know in the year 2020 + 6 that the vegan food industry didn't crater because they all decided to pretend to be celiac instead?
>>2804730a planned economy does not make it more likely. because unlike in your article economic planning is not rule by diktat.
>>2804677Eggs and butter are massively underrated for nutrients
>>2804730and I wasn't bullshitting, keep going. get it to a book or something.
cunts should be happy people take the time to read their shitposts.
>>2804734>that's a prime example of something that does need citation. how do I know in the year 2020 + 6 that the vegan food industry didn't crater because they all decided to pretend to be celiac instead?Ok, lets say it isnt growing. What difference does it make to the argument it was attached to?
>I asked for something in depth that outlined the entire vegan movementIf that is what you want consider a wikipedia article. Or shit I cited from, seen when you scroll down to Literature section. For example
Veganism: Politics, Practice, and Theory by Eva Giraud.
>>2804735>because unlike in your article economic planning is not rule by diktat.Irrelevant, any economy not based on profit motive would make it a more likely outcome.
>>2804740>lets say it isnt growing. What difference does it make to the argument it was attached to?your argument assumes that veganism is a desirable goal. it uses the growth of the vegan food industry to imply the movement is growing. you don't cite this, so it comes across as an assertion and not a given.
>Veganism: Politics, Practice, and Theory by Eva Giraudyeah cheers. might take a while for me to get around to.
>any economy not based on profit motive would make it a more likely outcomeif you read my commentary I mentioned the opposite happened in vietnam. communism isn't ascetism: it's not about foregoing luxuries it's about distributing them equitably.
>>2797226my personal philosophy for food has changed alot. Pretty sure i would be a cannibal if i needed to at this point.
>>2804743>it uses the growth of the vegan food industry to imply the movement is growingYou fucking piece of shit, you didnt read it at all, did you? That wasnt the argument whatsoever, is was that private companies are not reliable long-term allies.
>communism isn't ascetism: it's not about foregoing luxuries it's about distributing them equitably.Again, not argument I would make. Must be real easy to win this debate against your own head.
>if you read my commentary I mentioned the opposite happened in vietnamI dont remember you making such comment, Vietnam does not have a communist economy, and yes, transitioning to modern economy does lead to increase in meat consumption, you cant have factory farming without factories after all.
>>2804744>Pretty sure i would be a cannibal if i needed to at this point.Same. But you arent now, because you dont need to now. Same argument. I wouldnt be scrupulous concerning killing and eating animals if I lived as an 8th century tribesman. But I live in 21st century, and can eat a fully vegan bodybuilder diet, so killing animals ceases to be a necessity and becomes nothing but sadism. Not to mention qualitative difference between hunting wild animals or herding cattle on meadows, and super-auschwitz conditions of modern factory farms.
>>2804751brother I read it and took your citations on face value on the basis that I was judging your polemic. ok?
>I dont remember you making such commentok so you read the first three comments on gramatical errors, and got mad and didn't go thru the meatier ones I dropped after I accepted I'd never fix your grammar. fucking hate writers man.
their meat consumption went up under socialism. there were very popular postwar policies to grow the economy and fight malnutrition that let families apply to get a few chooks to start farming them. directly butchering and trimming their own poultry did not phase the vietnamse, quite the opposite, in vietnam you are never more than 10 mins away from bbq chicken bahn mi.
considering you didn't read the commentary, there's another major fuckup in your piece: you state that agricultural production is subsidized and a net economic drain, for this you cite EU figures and policy. brother, the EU's agricultural industry is a joke: hobby farms that produce expensive boutique crops for cultural reasons. get figures for countries that export consumer grade at volume my guy.
>vietnam does not have a communist economya vegan and a trot. you must be fun at parties.
>>2804751>auschwitz conditions of modern factory farmsThe chicken were the Jews all this time!!!
>>2804774oh dear, the least creative joke ever is inbound.
>>2804751>But you arent now, because you dont need to now.Ya, but food isnt just about need. There's so much culture and history and issues of availability to consider that at the end of the day i must consider hardcore veganism a testament to as a would any diet. The truth is if you take a hard enough look at the cruelty necessary needed to produce the calories needed for most people on the planet, but not just raw calories, but things people are willing and able to eat, its all becomes a cruel parody of itself. And thats where veganism loses its appeal, most of the people advocating it are hypocritical of their own cruel participation in a system they require to live.
Unless your veganism involves you practicing permaculture somewhere that personally sustains all your own calories in its own closed ecological and economic loop, you need to pay into the same commercialized agricultural system that is working to produce 'super-auschwitz conditions of modern factory farms.'
I think trying to be ethical about your food usually comes from a position of privilege to begin with. Most people eat what they must and do with what is available to them and it feels, at best, preachy to tell people what they can and can eat even if you can make multiple good ethical arguments for it.
Do i want factory farm conditions to be terrible for animals? No, not really, and for many other reasons than the fair treatment of an animal raised for slaughter.
>>2804792>Most people eat what they must and do with what is available to themWhat is available to you is the same thing as what is available to me, you are not a yak herder in Mongolia, you shop at a supermarket.
>their own cruel participation in a system they require to liveREQUIRE is the key word here. Expecting people to be a hermit in order to not participate in immoral system is unreasonable, expecting them to walk one aisle over to buy
cheaper and
healthier food that doesnt require torturing animals is not. There is no sacrifice in that.
>>2804805what is healthy? and some of the things that come with eating meat are immaterial, like sharing a meal with your cat.
>>2805065TRUE
I'm not gonna post it to not get banned, but imagine an adequate soyjak with the following arrow
>speciesism >>2797527>>2797528if only americans would fight this hard against palestinian genocide
>>2805183I don't care if chickens are killed. Deboonked.
>>2804648Interestingly, vegetarianism in India also developed out of a culture war between Brahmins and the groups that wanted to challenge their authority (Jains and Buddhists), where in the end both ended up adopting it to prove their virtue.
>>2805617>both ended up adopting it to prove their virtueThat is interesting, especially since vegetarians dont have virtues.
>>2805183too stupid to realize the system of commodity production isn't production for use and many commodities are totally useless
>>2805696i.e. food being thrown and restocked regardless if people decide to buy or not
>>2805183>>2805696>>2805697this happens because they reach their conclusions the same way as the westboro baptist church: this is icky to me personally, therefore wrong, therefore I'm right.
bored self-righteous bourgeois white people treat leftist politics like a hobby you take up or a costume that you put on to show the world how intellectually and morally superior you are and they are utterly myopic when it comes to the actual needs of the people they pretend to care about, veganism being a perfect example of this - thinking that everyone in the world should adopt your dietary regimen and failing to even consider the fact that most people in the world are poor and don't have the luxury of choosing what they will or won't eat to stay alive. for a long time these insufferable people were the only prominent leftist voices in the mainstream media because all the brown people and poor people talking about issues that affect them were ignored. in recent years the billionaires and white nationalists that run the world started overplaying their hands and showing their true colors and becoming more brazen in their activities, fascist movements are taking over politics and wealth inequality is reaching unprecedented levels and things like institutional racism and social eugenics becoming an undeniable reality, the wealthy white suburban vegan with a hybrid car and a coexist bumper sticker is no longer the face of modern leftism, and i think it's a good thing. and when the economy crashes and the depression is in full swing and these people lose everything they have, you can bet they will be eating meat again.
>>2804648Symbols mean things.
>>2805742Considering the rise of the price of meat these past years(maybe not in YOUR country), I feel more like nobody is going to eat meat when shit hits the fan, but I don't know the prices of supplements anyway (I should unironically take vitamin D)
>>2805696>>2805710>system of commodity production isn't production for useNo, it is production for exchange. If you steal meat from supermarket I wouldnt object. However paying for it does subsidize the production, doesnt it?
>>2805903B12 is extremely cheap, you can get a year supply for couple bucks.
>>2805710that's a shit deboonk. the real deboonk is that consumer power is lib nonsense and the real solution is vegan
vanguard vegan vanguard vegan vanguard >>2804648Judging by that video, of what use is veganism to capitalism though? Temperance and anti-consumption that Protestantism used to champion was useful to capitalism in the beginning, but why would veganism ever be useful for the capitalist system in the same vein?
im just going to interject here by saying that if you are a vegan and believe that eating a shrimp is murder and then you can't possibly justify first-trimester abortion as anything but murder
>>2806167Shrimp are sentient, first trimester fetuses aren't.
>>2805742Blah blah copium copium
It's a fact that animals are brutally tortured in the billions to make food and other products. And many of these animals feel pain and fear and are just as capable of feeling love and forming bonds like you do with your dog or cat.
Now obviously there's no objective morality and I won't even pretend there's an objectively correct reason to be vegan, in fact there is no objectively correct reason to be anything at all, like communist or liberal or fascist. But what is objectively correct is that billions of animals suffer extreme pain, fear and live deeply unnatural lives as a result of humans, and you either saying you don't give a shit about that or you lie and claim that that isn't happening.
I'm not sure I agree with the premise that vegans have gone, there's more vegans now than ever.
But with regards to leftism, leftists stopped making change in the world and wanted their treats, iPhones and sweatshop goods, so stopped acting in the real world and convinced themselves that they just needed to read more theory and things would work out.
Then they called vegans 'lifestylists' for the temerity of advocating for actual change.
>>2806167Abortion is question of bodily autonomy, its about right of a woman, whether or not killing a fetus is "murder" is irrelevant. The same way I wouldnt expect someone to starve in order to not harm animal, I wouldnt force a woman to go through the physically and psychically grueling process of pregnancy. Not to mention framing conversation of animal rights around mere killing completely ignores the context of the entire modern animal agriculture, which is an infinite circle of industrialised rape and torture.
>>2806223>Abortion is question of bodily autonomy, its about right of a woman, whether or not killing a fetus is "murder" is irrelevant.sayeth satan
consider the following:
> vegans
< lack basic humanist values
< can't eat a cheeseburger
< make eyebrow raising statements likening humans to livestock
< israel is the center of their culture
> israelis
< lack basic humanist values
< can't eat a cheeseburger
< make eyebrow raising statements likening humans to livestock
< israel is the center of their culture
vegans are spiritually israeli.
>>2806250finally a good sociological analysis
>>2806250Carnists are the ones that make migrant workers work in filthy slaughterhouses in diapers so they can fill their fat bellies
>>2806275As a proud carnist I want all those migrant workers to be working from air conditioned homes in comfy useless IT jobs, and for our current crop of bankers and government officials to be doing that instead.
>>2806289Nice fantasy about how meat eating could theoretically be more ethical but actually isn't, which is all you guys have to offer
>>2806295Non-exploitative meat-producing agriculture exists in Vietnam, Laos, China, North Korea, Belarus, and Cuba. Vegans literally live in the West so they think every other country is also using a slave migrant labor workforce to harvest their crops.
>>2806297Beyond delusional.
>>2806306>Vegan ran out of argumentsThe intellectual capacity of a vegan is always limited because their limited palate results in brain shrinkage from lack of essential nutrients.
>>2806313have you considered that the fact that only people in nations that have been subjected to endemic poverty whilst being sanctioned or strip mined to hell don't eat much meat means that it's not a luxury there's people that need to be fed?
>>2806315don't he'll get a stiffy
>>2806275Plenty of migrant workers work in agriculture and are paid pennies to harvest tomatoes, peaches, strawberries, etc. Honestly this is why I find veganism silly, at least if it's posturing as a political movement rather than a personal choice. Obviously it would be more ethical to refrain from meat and animal products, or replace them with some kind of substitute (lab grown meat, genetically engineered unconscious meat slabs like
>>2806315 etc), plus the environmentalist arguments. But with the amount of evil and suffering our society currently inflicts on human beings, it seems like an absurd waste of time and resources to focus energy on solving the problem of animal cruelty. Get your priorities straight. If you believe that human life is more important than animal life, then creating a mainstream vegan food system can and should wait until we've created a society that at the very least treats humans ethically.
>>2806325I've worked for an org that provides legal representation to migrant workers in labour/immigration cases against their bosses. They are paid shit and sometimes not at all, if they complain, try to organize, or do anything to irritate their bosses they can be fired, deported, and blacklisted. This often puts their families back home in dire economic straights since they depend on the income from migrant work. I once worked on a case where two Jamaican migrants worked for six months without being paid.
I like meat, and I am unconvinced on ethical arguments regarding animal sentience. it's a load of nonsense to me. however, you can persuade me with arguments that address environmental sustainability; if those problems could be solved without sacrificing meat, then I am fine with that. animals are not people. in terms of health, meat is good for you, which is something that vegans want to staunchly deny, but it is scientifically proven fact. yes, eating meat is pleasurable, but that's not the only or even the primary reason that people consume it.
if you're vegan I bear you no ill will but you should respect my perspective, I will not abstain from meat for your moral crusade, and until you can produce a machine that lab grows meat or can outright clone living organisms so we can have a cheat code for infinite meat, the industry surrounding it will continue to churn despite human rights violations and environmental concerns. the world is not fair, it is what it is.
>>2806349there's no ecological insensitive to be vegan
>>2806349Reminder: this is the person calling you treatler in other threads.
>>2806349Based. After The Revolution™ you will be placed in charge of a re-education camp to fix all these retarded vegans and to force them to start eating meat again. They will complain and whine and try to rebel but because they're vegan they will be weak and physically unable to overpower anyone so you won't have any issues.
If the USSR under Stalin enforced veganism, Hitler would have won. Kill all vegans. Vegans are counter-revolutionary bourgeois scum who want to make proles weak and unable to fight. Revolution requires strength.
>>2806369Hitler was vegan, thoughbeit. Maybe that was a contributing factor to why the Soviets won. Germans were soyboys.
>>2806313yeah the highly meat eating countries of Kazakhstan, Bolivia, and Cuba are super rich
>>2806330oh cool so you make a living working for NGOs (no mystery who funds them) to get scabs to come in and do work and expect that the bosses who hire these scabs are going to treat them fairly? Like they would with native organized labor? The whole reason they hire scabs is because they don't have any rights or recourse.
Imagine if it wasn't ag-workers, but H1B software engineers. You think we give a fuck about those scabs either? Same deal, these people get ripped off and fucked around with, but because they aren't the chosen browns picking my salad, the NGOs don't want to take their cases lol.
>>2806344Fuck you bitch, you think I like having some amigo not be able to use a bathroom so he has to shit in the field, wipe his ass with his hand and keep on working. There are outbreaks of disease every day because of this shit. Maybe you're the jewish nigger for defending the status quo.
>>2806643You are Kaczynskist, ending the meat industry to end the exploitation of the workers is a stupid position
>>2806651Even if you genuinely dont give a shit about suffering of animals, you do see connection between massive wastefulness and environmental destruction of animal agriculture and economic conditions of less privileged people, right?
PETA was a successful psyop that painted vegans as incredibly insufferable.
>>2806673And we should care about whether you find us insufferable because…?
>>2802186trve, veganism is associated with rich white yuppies and gentrifiers. white people who smell bad and have dreadlocks.
Other thoughts:
Veganism feels like an all or nothing sort of thing, probably due to the majority of vegans being moralists. It's not really about sustainability. I think it's probably easier to get people to only eat meat 4 times a week instead of everyday, but this messaging would be against the moralistic believes of the majority of vegans. This is why the concept of pescetarian or vegetarian went away. A vegetarian meal might still have dairy, a pescetarian might still eat mussels, oysters or tinned fish. Both of these are obviously significantly better than eating beef every meal twice a day, but neither are compatible with veganism.
Veganism itself isn't compatible with food deserts. If your meals are cheap hotdogs and whatever you can get at fast food and corner stores? You can't reasonably be a vegan. Veganism has also become a luxury product, sorry but moralism doesn't work when Beyond Meat is $7.99 per pound and ground Turkey is 2.99 per pound.
>>2806682PETA is controlled by the meat industry to paint vegans in a specific way to make them less appealing. You're defending people using the thing you support to psyop others into eating more meat.
>>2806699source uyghur
>think it's probably easier to get people to only eat meat 4 times a weekWhy? If there is no ethical principle here, why the fuck would you bother? Vegan dont want reduce factory farm population from a trillion to 800 billion, but to stop it.
Also vegan diet is cheaper both per calorie and per protein, pick any measure you want.
>>2806643>oh cool so you make a living working for NGOsI was a volunteer.
>no mystery who funds themThe group I was with was funded by donations, mostly from migrant workers themselves.
>to get scabs to come in and do work No, the workers are brought in as part of a government program. What the org does is help them protect their rights which are frequently attacked by their bosses. Are you saying protecting the rights of migrant workers is a bad thing? That they shouldn't be able to sue their bosses for wage theft, harassment, unsafe conditions, etc? They're also not scabs because they aren't crossing a picket line. Learn what words mean.
>The whole reason they hire scabs is because they don't have any rights or recourse. Again, they arent scabs. Scabs are people who are hired to replace workers that go on strike. In fact the right to strike and organize is one of the issues that the org I worked with helped defend. Technically they have all the same rights as native workers, the problem is their immigration status is tied to their employment, which their bosses can terminate for any reason. Legally they have to pay them severance or give reasonable notice, however once they've been fired they can be quickly deported. Once that happens their only option is to try and sue their bosses from their home country, which means spending huge amounts of money they don't have to navigate an unfamiliar legal system in a foreign country hundreds of kilometers away, often in a language they dont even speak. It's basically impossible. The whole point of the org was to get them legal representation to defend their existing rights under the law before they can be deported. Alternatively they also act to represent them even after they've been sent home to get them lost wages or other damages. This is all done for free. Idk what kind of brainworms it takes for you to think that helping migrant workers stand up to their bosses is a bad thing. I guess you're okay with people being forced to work for free for months at a time.
>>2806703It's easier to go
"Meatless Fridays" -> "Meat only eaten four times a week" -> "Meat is a special meal" -> maybe we don't need meat. by making it a black and white "do or don't" "with or against" narrative, you're creating ideological conflict, it's piss poor propaganda. literally just read any book on ruling over a population of people or how propaganda operates.
If we want to beat climate collapse our entire food network will need to be rethought, from the ground up, with a focus on agroforestry. Something that has already been shown to be incredibly effective by the DPRK.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/pafo.12222If you don't believe that eating animals is inherently wrong (I don't) then the moral argument of veganism falls apart. But the moral argument really has nothing to do with sustainability, because ignores non-plant food sources, which are often key for agroforestry (ie sustainable crawfish farms, mussel farms as coastal restoration, hunting as necessary for environmental stewardship, etc). This is never where the discussion is though, it's usually about shaming individuals into making better consumer choices which is the epitome of neoliberal "everyone is navigating the market" mindset.
Showing something the brutality of a factory farm via one of the countless documentaries that have the leaked footage doesn't change the fact that you need a car to get to the whole foods, which is going to cost more than 'food mart' corner store, which is already overpriced, and since you can't access the whole foods anyway, you are stuck with what they sell at the 'food mart' and they sell hot dogs, processed frozen chicken patties, gallons of milk, lunch meat, and bread. There are millions of people who simply do not have access to things like fresh produce.
The solution is a total rework of our food networks focused on locally available foodstuffs. Local varieties. In season produce. Agroforestry instead of monocultures. Real systemic change like that would do infinitely more to actually prevent that which vegans oppose than shaming individuals ever could.
Veganism makes people leak because it basically makes people admit that morality is an idealist constructions and that there is no objective right or wrong. In any situation whatsoever.
People finally have to abandon all their retarded moral idealism just because they don't want to give up eating meat lol. And that's a good thing. Moral ideology is as damaging as religion to materialist thinking.
>>2806775 (me)
See :
>Genocide is bad<Why?>[answer]<Now why doesn't that answer also apply to beings that don't look human but still feel pain, fear, and are capable of love and happiness?>incoherent screeching and leaking >>2806781Nothing is ever good or bad, they just are
I am going to eat meat right now just to spite these autists.
>>2806781because animals are as stupid as they are nutritious. they can't conceive of their predicament or enact their liberation. they can lead a 90% happy life if you raise them outside in something akin to their regular habitat.
workers have been resisting their enslavement with varying levels of sophistication for as long as there has been civilization.
There’s one way to sustainably eat meat, it’s do it rarely and to hunt for it yourself, we have plenty of overpopulated and invasive species running around causing havoc. Why should I let the meat from 17 pigs rot in the sun when they destroy the land? Just snip the needles off the lionfish, who gives a fuck
>>2807051>we have plenty of overpopulated and invasive species running around causing havoc.that's only because we fucked up the ecosystem in the first place by killing off the predators, we need to reintroduce wolves etc
>>2807049if animals were actually raised for meat that way maybe I would feel a bit more postive about carnism but they aren't. it's like saying slavery isn't that bad because 'well slaves could live in humane conditions', okay but they didn't/don't so what kind of argument is that. plus slavery would still be wrong.
>workers have been resisting their enslavement with varying levels of sophistication for as long as there has been civilization.so might makes right? workers have failed to liberate themselves so I guess they deserve wage slavery then right?
>>2807293Also even if you say that "well workers haven't liberated themselves but at least they tried", ok, well in that case should we legalise putting seriously mentally disabled people in camps because they wouldn't be able to resist? How about children or oldsters with dementia?
bump
>>2807293you're strawmanning my argument: workers have not yet liberated themselves, history and economics show that over a long enough timeline they will. animals cannot even conceive being oppressed. comparing the two is an absurd joke.
you think you're making clever arguments that expose the absurdity of the status quo. it's actually sophistry: it only works in theory not practice.
you also can't address the core problem with veganism: humans eat meat because animals are tasty. people intuitively understand vegan arguments are wrong because they feel hungry when they smell a barbecue.
>>2797226>But the younger generation doesn’t seem to care at all. Why?trauma from mad cow diesease was the driving force behind millennial veganism
zoomies didn't experience it
>>2806349your general point is sound but you are not entitled to respect and demanding it belies a certain insecurity. if you didn't really believe vegans to have
something, you would not feel bad that they do not respect you.
>>2806703utilitarianism. killing two cows is worse than killing one cow.
this is where some (including myself) would previously conclude that vegans are an ineffective religion more interested in personal moral purity (killing one cow is still very sinful!) than in utilitarian outcomes in real life, but i've since revised that. their moral pressure does reduce the social status of meat eating even if their personal abstention doesn't really.
the best way to reduce meat eating would simply be to increase the price of meat. then people will knowingly or unknowingly cut back their consumption and substitute non-meat products. that would take big legislative action, but you can shift the total calculation around a bit by reducing the social value of the good. (this is also a major reason that boycotting israel works - even if you don't actually legislate, drawing attention to it can shift a structurally relevant number of people's
tastes.)
>>2812007>one guy is personally abusive to animalsWow that really proves that slaughterhouse workers are not oppressed and actually deserve it
>>2806705And nobody besides deep green anprim schizos is proposing eliminating industrial farming, just reforming it
>>2812007I support this happening all over the world if it means I get to keep eating delicious delicious bacon.
>>2812018>killing two cows is worse than killing one cow.Since you believe torturing and killing animals is bad, are you vegan? If not, why? If killing two cows is worse than killing one, then killing none is the best, is it not?
>>2812023>one guyAbusing animals is in their job description.
>>2812031partially because i am a lazy, flawed person who is good at compartmentalizing (this is of course 99% of the practical reason), partially because i am a pedant who judges that buying discounted meat (i am also a cheapskate) kills no cows (the killing comes before the selling) and that a structural resolution is necessary (and i can contribute to a structural resolution by defending vegans online while quietly continuing to eat meat and by preaching the gospel of "just increase the price of meat" - obviously i undermine the first part by being honest with you, but here we are.), and partially because i have a calvinist streak and so have always been at ease with the idea that i'm mired in sin (and suspicious of meat-eaters instinctive desire to defend themselves or rationalize why obvious wrongdoing is actually fine, rather than to accept their fractional involvement in immorality and with it, the generally evil state of the world.)
>>2812018>utilitarianismwow cool ethical framework, where'd you find it? philosophy 101? you dumbass. you basic bitch.
utilitarianism is the mark of the pseud. morons use it when they're out of their depth shortly before losing. tim pool does it constantly. one cow feeds a lot of people. if killing one cow feeds many people it must be good. killing two must be even better!
it gets proved over and over that vegans don't care about animals enough to do proper scholarship, and prefer to post torture porn which is fast, cheap, and cathartic. you guys have consistently failed to prove that veganism isn't ascetic moralism, and that ending meat consumption is even a worthy goal.
hell, I've been begging for proof of the environmental benefits that isn't: vegan resource use = resource use - livestock resource use. or economic proof that isn't based on imperial core net importers like europe or north america.
stupid fucking moralist fucking reductive arguments that don't quantify anything and abuse outliers are worthless. you are worthless. go eat more processed vegan slop from israel you mindless bovine.
>>2797233This is objectively the correct answer.
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