I live in the Global South in a region being absolutely hammered by rising heat waves, the worst kind. People are dying, people are suffering, daily life is becoming unbearable. I’ve watched the heat get worse in real time and seen the misery it brings.
And unlike the retarded neocons these activists do understand the consequences of climate change, but then what? They offer nothing remotely proportional to the crisis. “Plant more trees,” “switch to solar” that’s it. I’ve had to explain over and over that our governments are too corrupt and dysfunctional to pull that off. They barely function as it is. There’s no institutional capacity and Individual actions don’t mean much in a system like this.
We had chances. When Al Gore lost and oil billionaire won, that was a turning point and a disastrous one. I genuinely mourn what could have been different. We could have built global institutions capable of dealing with climate change before it spiraled into this nightmare. But that’s not the world we got.
This is the reality now and If we want to prevent total collapse, geoengineering is the only option left on the table. I know it’s dangerous and I know it doesn’t fix the root cause. I’m not blind to that. But at this point it’s not about perfect solutions, it’s about any solution that might actually keep people alive and not in pain.
Because it’s highly experimental and theoretical with too many unknown.
>This is the reality now
>If we want to prevent total collapse
Pick one.
Adaption and further prevention are the priorities now. Total negation is simply not on the table.
>>2803762I agree we need geoengineering but if our governments won't even switch from fossil fuels then do you really expect them to do any kind of huge project like this? Even if they somehow did it would be totally corrupt and evil, they'd probably end up harming more people than they would help.
>>2803768>I agree we need geoengineeringNo, we need to get our shit together. Successful geoengineering in our current state is not an advisable position to have. We are pathetic in comparison to the state we should be to handle such a project.
I'd reckon it's the same reason there apprehensive about nuclear energy which is that people living in the West have a very hard time imagining a government thats actually capable of doing anything other than facilitating corruption and/or doling out violence as needed to protect the private property of the ruling class. The whole concept that the State might have to do something the business class doesn't like at the time to perpetuate itself is a foreign concept to them.
"Geoengineering" is mere science fiction at this point, a nice pitch to get venture capital money. Cloud seeding to increase the albedo of the earth would cost too much money at this scale and stuff like CO2 capture is energy intensive so you need the solar panels first anyway.
Planting trees literally is a form of geoengineering you idiot, lmao
>>2803774No one is talking about planting trees.
>>2803771I literally said right after that we can't trust capitalist government to do it
>>2803773It costs a lot less to do geoengineering than what society will lose if climate change goes unchecked
>>2803772People don't like nuclear because it's really expensive, tied to weapons of mass destruction and will transform their home in an exclusion zone if there is a trillion dollar fuck up. Most nuclear plants are in the west and were built by states, the private sector shies away from those since they have negative ROI and are uninsurable
>>2803777I am not merely talking about the problem of rule of capital, but rather all of it’s side effects and then some. Enshittification permeates everything. Just about everything in our modern world is made, done, and implemented with capital and reactionary idealism in mind. We have to redesign logistics chains. We have to redesign urban design. We have to redesign agricultural systems. You name it, we have to at least look it over.
And that’s before you have to factor in something as catastrophic as any form of climate change. Including geoengineered climate change. It is a lot. There is a lot.
>>2803790Ok, yeah, it's a lot, that doesn't mean we just shouldn't do anything.
>>2803792I’m not saying not to do anything, I’m saying geoengineering is not on the top of the list.
Most liberals/“leftists” (at least in the US) have a noble savage view of non white people. On top of hating all the countries that actually beat their colonizers like China and Vietnam, I’ve had people get mad at me for saying that making art isn’t actually doing anything and if you want to actually help minority groups who are homeless or living in really poor places like native reservations you should talk to those people just like they’re white and ask them if there is stuff you can guy for them that would make their lives better. This isn’t helped by members of the petty bourgeoise from these groups essentially starting businesses where they get white people to pay them tons of money so they can “reconnect with the land” or whatever, instead of helping the people from those groups that are actually poor.
>>2803794I don't think we really have time to prioritise what we do to protect the environment, if I was in charge of the world I would slash entire industries just to put resources towards the green new deal or whatever you want to call it. If we have to for example stop making any videogames or movies for five years that's what we should do. More realistically it would be stop any new construction perhaps to put all engineering/manpower towards the project. Whatever it takes, we should be willing to sacrifice
>>2803765>>2803771>>2803798This is exactly my point. I explicitly said this doesn’t fix the root causes, but unless there’s a revolution, these corrupt, incompetent third-world hybrid regimes will never dismantle these oligarchic systems without extreme foreign sanction ready pressure. And meanwhile, people are literally being burned alive.
>>2803762geoengineering/terraforming is too expensive and largely unproven.
> I know it’s dangerous and I know it doesn’t fix the root cause.then why are you asking? if we can't do relatively cheap and simple corrective actions why would we be able to do more complex expensive and destructive actions?
> They offer nothing remotely proportional to the crisis. “Plant more trees,”ironically planting more trees to reverse desertification is one of the forms of terraforming.
I'm really struggling to parse what you're trying to ask here lol.
>>2803798>if I was in charge of the world I would slash entire industriesWhat industries
>More realistically it would be stop any new construction perhaps to put all engineering/manpower towards the projectEven ignoring the poor state of towns and cities right now, this proposition would never fly. Stopped construction means the proletariat is going to be more vulnerable to climate than they already are.
>If we have to for example stop making any videogames or movies for five years that's what we should doWhy would we ever do this
>I don't think we really have time to prioritise what we do to protect the environmentWe’re going to have to make time regardless of how much we actually have.
>>2803776OP:>And unlike the retarded neocons these activists do understand the consequences of climate change, but then what? They offer nothing remotely proportional to the crisis. “Plant more trees,” “switch to solar” that’s it.
>>2803815And like I said, these are at best feel good individual actions. If there were a concerted government effort to enact these policies, something radical could be done, but thees governments both won't and can’t.
>>2803815I know OP mentioned trees, but we’re not talking about planting trees either. No one here is interested in tree planting except maybe you I guess.
china plants trees en masse and y'all love them
>>2803823How many times does this need to be explained? Third-world hybrid-regimes cannot simply do things the way China can.
also
>>2803820 >>2803820>>2803827Do you know what a different climate is?
>>2803830What are you talking about?
>>2803837Do. You. Know. What. A. Different. Climate. Is.
>We can't land on the moon with how things are today, thus we should try to land on mars instead.
>Trains are and obsolete tech, we need hyperloop.
I am really sorry but what the fuck do you mean with 'geo-engineering' first of all? This is an big umbrella term for all kinds of different techniques, technologies and measures, some of which are real and being applied like, yes planting fucking trees and others that are scifi bullshit like blacking out the sun, matrix-style. As someone who actually worked in the energy field you come across as just another detractor trying to plant red herings (instead of trees), trying to undermine tried, proven and established emission reducing technologies that have a real world impact (cheap PV, large-scale battery storage, conventional nuclear energy, electric vehicles, hydro power, off-shore wind energy) vs deux ex machina bullshit (hydrogen economy, carbon capture, e-fuels, fusion energy, modular reactors) which usually are perpetuated by lobbyists tied to the fossil fuel industry.
>>2803850>electric vehiclesMid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratospheric_aerosol_injectionStratospheric Aerosol Injection only costs $50 billion per year to reverse ALL manmade global warming. Essentially giving us decades of time to decarbonize without suffering from extreme hot climate, disasters, melting ice caps etc
Its not about "should this be done", this WILL be done inevitably. It's extremely simple and cheap to do this.
Global warming is a solved problem. The only reason this isnt being done already is because the capitalist class wants global chaos and climate change to start a world war to revive profit rates, and only then they'll do this
>>2803812I have been blocked by multiple anti-civ pages for this copypasta I made in my notes app:
" Me going to a family of 5 in the Pine Ridge Reservation to tell them there lack of electricity,clean water and sewage system is actually a good thing"
>>2803841Yeah I know, what's your point?
>>2803850Obviously I’m not talking about that tech-bro nonsense. You have no idea how many times I’ve wished things had gone differently, how we could’ve built global institutions capable of dealing with climate change back when the US was the sole superpower. But that’s not what happened. How many times do I have to spell this out to you? Third-world countries are corrupt hybrid regimes, they don’t function like your countries, their corporations don’t operate like yours either. And whatever powers exist in the West are fractured, with plenty of people in charge who simply don’t care. Meanwhile, people here are practically boiling alive, and and all we want is to have the means not be boiled alive.
>>2803867>Yeah I know, what's your point? Give me an example.
>>2803867>But that’s not what happened. How many times do I have to spell this out to you? Third-world countries are corrupt hybrid regimes, they don’t function like your countries, their corporations don’t operate like yours either.But that's great actually because it allows those countries to leapfrog climate tech like it is happening in Pakistan and India right now.
>>2803872No one is leapfrogging climate tech. They’re all painfully behind.
>>2803867Geo-engineering is literally techbro non-sense in its purest form. Non-tried catch-all term for different technologies, barely studied and applied sold as a deus ex machina solution with the sole purpose to undermine more democratic and anti-monopoly alternatives. 'We have this wunderwaffe and if we just used it we can just continue burn dinosaur goo'. Yeah, no.
>>2803871Are you saying climate doesn't exist?
>>2803872I live in Pakistan. How are we leapfrogging in climate tech? what’s actually happening is that people are just buying more solar panels, because our local electricity networks essentially don’t exist, that’s as far as it goes.
>>2803878Not a single person is saying this will fix everything, we’re just trying not to die or be boiled alive. also
>sole purpose to undermine more democraticWhat is wrong with western leftists? Do your brains not work or are you in so much angst of your failure to connect with the working class in your own countries you developed a fetish for being unlikable douchebags.
>>2803884>Are you saying climate doesn't exist?No, i’m asking you to give me an example of a different climate.
>>2803884>What is wrong with western leftists? Do your brains not work or are you in so much angst of your failure to connect with the working class in your own countries you developed a fetish for being unlikable douchebags.What's wrong with third world comprador liberals? Why do they fetishize techbros so much and love to shine the boots of silicon valley billionaires? Also what's up with the rampant and latent sinophobia?
>>2803888Geoengineering is NOT slop. In fact it's the only way to save thirdoid countries like India or Pakistan. If China doesn't do it, those countries will eventually do it. They don't have a choice.
Geoengineering is INEVITABLE. The maths, economics and science behind is bulletproof. It will end global warming and save the earth.
>>2803890>what's up with the rampant and latent sinophobia?thirdies have been mad at china for 30 years since they began exporting cheap products undercutting the local workforce and killing local industries
>>2803888>That's false actuallyThat’s true actually
>plenty of thirdie countries are currently leapfrogging climate techNone of them are leapfrogging climate tech. The tech already leapfrogged everyone decades ago, everyone is just late in implementing it.
>India might even pass China in establishing its first electro stateAnd yet they would still be behind where they should be.
>Not the geoengineering techslop that you are peddling.I’m not peddling any such thing
>>2803892>It will end global warmingBut not climate change
>>2803895Global warming is like 90% of climate change THOUGH. No one gives a shit about corals or whatever the other effects of CO2 are
>>2803899>Global warming is like 90% of climate changeIt is not.
>No one gives a shit about corals or whatever the other effects of CO2 areYou don’t, I do.
>>2803887What point do you want to say?
>>2803888Not even Indian nationalists are this delusional.
>>2803890>Also what's up with the rampant and latent sinophobia?depends on the country and party, left-wing in my country are the biggest supporters of the CCP, even Islamists want to work with them, only Indian nationalists dislike them
>>2803905>What point do you want to say? Pick an example, and you’ll see
>>2803909Punjab and Sindh, happy?
The ecosystem is highly complex and whatever proposed futuristic ideas that give you hope can produce unforseen effects that may be hardly reversible and make the situation worse. The best solution for climate change is organizing for socialism and allowing mass migration for people in the Global South not having to suffer the most severe consequences of manmade climate change.
>>2803935>Punjab and SindhCorrect.
>happy?Yes. Punjab and Sindh are regional climates. Within a normal regional climate, tree planting would normally quite effective in stemming off negative patterns. But, when dealing with global negative climate patterns, trees are not going to be enough and are likely to be overwhelmed.
Let me give you examples of different global climates:
Mars
Venus
Titan
Triton
Pluto
Jupiter
Neptune
Saturn
Uranus
Ice age earth
Prehistoric earth climates
All of these are different GLOBAL climates. Try planting a modern tree in any of these locations. You either flat out couldn’t, or it would not do particularly well. That tree dealing with overwhelming global forces that snuffing out any positive regional influences. It is not on a particularly friendly world anymore. It is now on a particularly dangerous world where exposure to it could mean death.
>>2803812also, actually talking to people from the Navajo Nation one of their biggest issues is the lack of access to food (there’s only 12 grocery stores on a reservation with 200,000 people and covering millions of acres)
>>2803772>>2803779Nuclear power had some bad luck but worse publicity. people here might point to Chernobyl but the shift in public perception actually began earlier. The film, The china syndrome starring Jane Fonda portrayed nuclear energy as super unsafe and just 12 days after its release, the Three Mile Island incident occurred. That sequence of events eroded support for nuclear power among majority of boomers and Gen X liberals, many of whom started associating nuclear power with nuclear weapons. Later on The Simpsons reinforced this negative perceptions by depicting nuclear power plants as unsafe and environmentally harmful, shaping how many Millennials came to view it.
>>2803861
>Notice how everyone has been using Climate change instead of global warming?
That's because it's a more accurate term. The world is getting hotter on average, but that doesn't mean it's getting hotter everywhere. Some regions will likely experience cooling as climate patterns shift.
It's not that they are averse to it so much as they understand the laws of thermodynamics and the fact that there's no technology that can feasibly reverse this. It took tremendous amounts of energy to smash all those hydrocarbons together in the ground and we extracted tremendous amounts of energy from breaking them apart and all that resulting CO2 is in its lowest possible energy state and the only way to reverse the process is to put all of that energy back, repay all of the energy debt we have accrued over the past centuries. There is no way around this, there are no clever scientific tricks we could possibly come up with to put all that carbon back in the ground without paying what is owed. The only thing we can do now is stop making it worse and figure out how to adapt to the permanent consequences.
>>2804043Humans survived when all the megafauna died and through the black plague combined with Europe’s total deforestation. The decline of carbon is the decline of capitalism.
>>2804043I know all of this. I understand we need to fix the root issues. What I’m tired of amd absolutely exhausted by is people who don’t even live here lecturing us. For the love of God, we are out of time. Hospitals are overwhelmed with patients suffering from heatstroke and like I’ve said a billion times already, our government do not have the capacity or the institutions to shut down these Industries.
Western activists who keep repeating this bullshit have no idea how dire things are for my people. There is no perfect option left, only whether we this quickly or after an even bigger tragedy. And what are you so worried about, it’s all supposedly “bullshit,” then why do these same activists and NGOs panic every time we try to actually deal with it? Your go to excuse is that it’s “unproven” or that it might change the environment too much, so it shouldn't matter to you?
>>2803762For one heavy potential for backfire. Second, you really think the porkies government who cant be arsed to do anything right for the environment because it hurt profits would be able to be trusted with paying private corps given the task to do geoengineering? And finally it seems like an excuse to just not change anything while pretending to care about the problem.
Your framing is actually a perfect example of why its bad. "Lets not bother with actually fixing things, its too hard we cant do it, lets have magic tech alleviate the problem instead! We just have to pay with public money some new porkies selling unproved dreams so they do it!"
We might have to use some amount of it eventually, but it certainly shouldnt be the focus of any pro environmental political activity
>>2804048>people who don’t even live here lecturing us>my peoplewhere are you from? are people in your country even really in favor of your magic bullet? why are you sperging about "muh western ngo" as if they had any real power to do or prevent anything?
>>2804048A lot of these so-called "activists" you speak of aren't really activists at all, they're just for-profit businesses trying to sell something, trying to get investor capitol for tech startups in renewable energy or geoengineering or electric vehicles or whatever, the green energy sector is full of charlatans who don't actually care about the climate at all and are just trying to profit from a global crisis, that's the problem with capitalism and leaving the "free market" in charge of tech innovation.
The truth of the matter is, this is not really a technological problem at all - we already have all kinds of non-fossil fuel energy technologies and we've had them for decades and they work well and we could start migrating to them tomorrow if it weren't for the extremely wealthy and powerful fossil fuel lobby and corrupt politicians standing in the way. It's a regulatory problem, a legislative problem, and you can't fix it with a technological solution. Even if someone invented cold fusion or some kind of magic impossible perpetual energy device we would still be stuck in the same situation, the only thing that can fix this is removing conservatives from the political arena and dismantling the fossil fuel industry and taking energy infrastructure and research out of the private sector and putting it in the public sector where it belongs.
It has the potential to make things 100000000x worse than they already are
>>2803811>What industries NTA, auto.
"Western activists" weird framing since it comes almost entirely from western billionaires.
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