Georgi Dmitrov:
>the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic, most imperialist elements of finance capital.
Umberto Eco's 14 traits:
>cult of tradition, rejection of modernism, irrationalism/action for action’s sake, fear of difference, obsession with conspiracy, nationalism, glorification of struggle, contempt for weakness, selective populism, machismo, newspeak, treating dissent as treason.
Rajani Palme Dutt:
>Monopoly capitalism in crisis creating a dictatorship at the head of a manipulated petty bourgeois mass movement, resulting in the collapse of parliamentary liberalism under capitalism,
Normie Lib Political Science Definition:
>totalitarian authoritarian anti-liberal ultranationalism bulit on a myth of national rebirth, dictatorship, mass mobilization, and political violence
criticisms? thoughts?
145 posts and 28 image replies omitted.>>2824397Fascism indeed emerged an anti-materialist revision of Marxism but it i still right-wing. Left and right are not defined by economics but by the belief in social hierarchy
>>2827460Ideologies are defined by those who create them
>>282277414 tenet are utter shit
>>281742
Largely correct, but there's no such thing as "Third Positionism". Left and right are not defined by economics but by the belief in social hierarchy. Ancaps, feudal reactionaries, and fascists are all far-right as they all vigorously believe that hierarchy is natural, just , and should be defended; they merely disagree about who should be the elite caste.
The "third-position" quality of fascism is its abstract philosophical anti-materialism. It sees Marxism and capitalism as two sides of the same materialist coin and itself as having transcended this with the higher ideal of devotion to the nation
>>2827390Both are rightists but neither are correct
>>2830033Within the context of this thread (Marxism) those are not "rightists" (US lib definition) but simply fascists.
Trotsky's definition is best.
>>2832525Of course the Catalanarchosyndicalist eternal dupe of class collaboration and capitulation (since he's a crypto-liberal he learned nothing from the historical experience) would have this fucking opinion. Get betrayed in United Front From Above for all eternity, why dont you.
>>2829997even if they're on MI5 payroll?
Definitions 🤡
Bump
>the open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic, most imperialist elements of finance capital
This is true of at least south American "fascism", if we can even call it that. Pinochet, Videla, Fujimori…
>>2817018god this show was so fucking good
>>2816985it may come as a surprise to newfags that leftcoms were once some of the best read and highest effort posters on /leftypol/. even a lot of hardline MLs/anarchists acknowledged it
now our resident leftcoms seem to be the infantilism meme made real, and i suspect at least the loudest of them are teenagers from twitter and whatnot
I believe in a combination of Dimirtov and J.Sakai's definition of fascism.
Sakai's definition (TL;DR version) is that it is a movement of the national petite-bourgeoise against the rule of the big bourgeoisie. Anti-bourgeois, but not anti-capitalist.
Obviously this misses how elites have taken part in fascism all the time, so I prefer a defnition of fascism as an umbrella of all forms of bourgeois dictatorship that, institute a type of government Dimitrov describes, but with competing views of social revolution and reaction within it.
I like to think of fascism as a kind of political extension of capitalism beyond the economic sphere.
>the lib takes ITT
>>2816552>Russia is effectively a one party state, and yet it is objectively farther from fascism than Ukraine because legal socialist organizing is possible in the former, but not the latter.you had me for most of it until this point tbh
>>2843291>national petite-bourgeoise against the rule of the big bourgeoisie. Anti-bourgeois, but not anti-capitalist.this like many definitions of fascism has some truth to it but i agree with those who describe it as a cluster of related traits, none of which on its own necessarily makes a state or organization fascist. i dont particularly like umberto eco's list but his "family resemblance" argument makes more sense to me than any of the more precise definitions that its easy to find exceptions about or argue over applicability. and it doesnt bother me that its not a precise definition, if nothing else fascism is consistently opportunist & idealist, it doesnt invoke or aspire to specificity within material history.
all to say, i dont think its all that wrong to describe fascism as "the word we use for the worst reactionaries." i dont think thats a good definition, but more often than not it works fine
>>2843347please enlighten us
>>2843392why in particular? i hate the russian federation as much as the next honest communist but it seems obvious to me that ukraine in closer to fascism than russia. doesnt mean i "like russia more", not everything bad in the world is fascist, i can hate them without thinking theyre fascist. i dont agree with that other anons description of fascism as No Socialist Organizing Allowed, but im curious why you dont in this case, since it seems abundantly clear that socialism is less of a taboo in russia than in ukraine
>>2843291funny how Sakai's definition targets America's enemies in the middle east more than it targets Israel and America's own domestic oligarchs, isn't it?
>>2830019>It sees Marxism and capitalism as two sides of the same materialist coin and itself as having transcended this with the higher ideal of devotion to the nationYeah this. It's a completely freaky belief that one's nation constitutes an organic whole with a quasi-sacred transhitorical "essence" + a destiny or mission. (Obviously this is a crazy ideological fantasy as Marxists would see it, and should, but that's how fascists tend to express it.)
>>2843470>why in particular? i hate the russian federation as much as the next honest communist but it seems obvious to me that ukraine in closer to fascism than russia.I don't Russia is fascist. But those tendencies exist in Russia. They exist in other countries as well. It's weird though. I was reading this guy Maxim Kalashnikov who has described himself as a "fascist" and "imperialist" (and he's into the future-forward militaristic stuff that was common in historical fascist regimes), but he supports the KPRF. But he doesn't think Russia is fascist either! (And that's his problem with how it's currently run.) But it's a kind of ideology that is pro-Soviet in the sense of awe of Soviet scientific and military achievements. Alexander Prokhanov is more well known. It's a mix of a mystical view of the nation with go-go militarism and technological boosterism.
>Grad rockets tear through Donetsk and Luhansk. Air battles over Kiev. Tank clashes on the streets of Kharkov. Landing ships at the Odessa roadsteads. Hospitals splatter with blood. Prisoners with the eyes of death row. Fire victims with children in their arms. Isn't it true, "Europe is our common home"? Isn't this what "new thinking" is? Are they not what "universal values" are? We are paying a terrible price for the devastation inflicted on Russia in 1991.
>We were deprived of great spaces, great factories and technologies. We were robbed of culture and science. We were taught that we were Russian fascists, the heirs of executioners and prison guards. We were forced to repent, deprived of the will to live and the will to create history. We survived thanks to a Russian miracle, that mysterious divine force that prevented Russia from disappearing throughout all its great tragedies.
>Russia wiped off its French lipstick. Removed its Parisian hat. Stopped singing the songs of the Italian boulevards. Russia knows how to wear a quilted jacket, how to twist a goat's leg at military rest stops, how to play a Shostakovich symphony in besieged Leningrad, how to throw fascist standards at the foot of the Mausoleum. Back then, in 1945, among this heap of fascist banners, one could discern the standard of the Teutonic Order, the coats of arms of the Polish gentry, Napoleon's cocked hat, and the flags of the Entente. This pile of banners will grow century after century. And today, in this multicolored heap of rags, we find the blue and star flag of the European Union, the star-spangled banner of the United States, the flag of the Bulgarian "brothers," and the flag of the Japanese Aryans of the East. All peoples, all tribes are marching against Russia. Well, the smoke break is over. It's time to take up the eternal Russian cause.
>We will not die of hunger. We will not wear rags. We will not switch from airplanes to donkeys. In place of the industries destroyed by Gaidar, we will once again, through great labor, create industries capable of producing the best cars in the world, the most fashionable frock coats and overcoats, the most delicious cheeses and delicacies. We will not allow into the economy those who squandered the people's money in foreign banks. Those who, having robbed the people of Russia, exported countless billions abroad and handed them over to the enemy. We will bring Russian history, Russian literature, and Russian culture back to our schools, and we will banish those who, for decades, deliberately turned Russian children into a mindless, carnivorous rabble. We will shut down the monstrous cesspool that poisoned our souls with television abominations and created the satanic show business that has now fled the Russian stage in a rat-like panic.
>The military special operation in Ukraine is a vast, bloody washbasin, under which Russia and Ukraine are washing themselves with tears and blood. The bloody washstand thunders, and we wash our eyes. The fighting in Ukraine is the defense of Donbas, the defeat of NATO military structures, the suppression of fascist revenge, the prevention of nuclear explosions. But this is yet another great prevention. The West is offering the world its project of "great zeroing." A project in which all boundaries, all differences, all the flourishing complexity of humanity are erased. The borders of the state, men and women, good and evil, light and darkness, hell and heaven disappear. This project, like a black tar, creeps upon the world, creeps upon Russia. The victory of the "great zeroing" is a strategic defeat for humanity, in which everything human fades and what remains is a brutal synthesis of biomaterial and "digital."
>The Russian special operation in Ukraine is a blow to the great zeroing. This is a ripping open of the mantle the West casts over the world. Russia, once again, as it always has, is taking on a formidable task, one only it can handle—transforming darkness into light. Hell, which every hundred years opens its gates and unleashes thousands of demons upon Russia, is retreating before the onslaught of Russian paradise. Amidst adversity and threats, amidst the hateful wheezing and treacherous squeals, the Russian victory code emerges. Russians believe in the inevitability of Victory. Russians know that Victory is achieved through great, continuous labor. Russians know that retreat and decline end in leaps forward. That Russians are not alone in the face of enemy hordes, and that not only the army and navy are with them, but also God, and that a Russian miracle is present in Russian destiny. In times of trouble, Russians forget all their internal strife and become a vast, united, invincible people, united around a leader. The Russians know that their Victory is a worldwide, universal Victory, for Russia, charred, bloodied, embittered, remains in white clothes and is the soul of the world.https://ru-prokhanov.livejournal.com/728585.html >>2843726Sakai's definition makes sense if you pause the development of fascism in like 1919 and ignore everything that happened afterwards.
>>2844310I get what you're saying but even then it doesn't
Like everything else attributed to the person who identified themselves as "Sakai" after the 80s it is incoherent and not consistent with the view as a whole
That Sakai thinks that fascism and fascists has some sort of authenticity - Hitler is exciting, fascism is legitimate as a revolutionary movement based on class interests, reflective of real social contradiction
Nasically everything he says can't happen in liberal and working class movements as a whole. what's the difference? Is it simply that fascism is fascism and therefore more violent? more racial? What exactly is it about fascism that makes it more authentic in the way Sakai says? Doesn't this go against every other idea of fascism as ahistorical, aesthetic, mystifying, etc.? The person who wrote Shock of Recognition either is trolling or they have never read a single book on the topic
Its an edgy teens understanding of history where every movement or epoch has one real subject that can act or perform and everyone else is just duped by the status quo. its a view more derived from the idea of mass ressentiment than any serious conception of class. anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't read very much.
There is no reason to take this shit seriously except to diagnose where Ivy League "communism" shit its bed and rolled around in it
Fascism is corporatism obsessed with tradition and nationalism.
>>2820916Are you even doing that shit?
Literally the only thing that combines the fascisms is paligenetic ultranationalism.
ALl the fascisms have such differences too each other especially if you include the more fringe fascisms.
Theres just no connection with all these fascist movement except paligenetic ultranationalism. Its literally only that. No other definition can fit.
muh definishaaaans
Every definition but Dimitrov's is pure liberal ahistorical garbage that no Marxist should ever entertain.
>>2845223>Popular Front Foreverism isn't the most lib sack of BS ever come up with in the history of the communist movementAre you a lifetime ACP premium donator?
>>2844957South American fash were not that way
if imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism
fascism is the highest stage of anti-communism
>>2845253This. The only thing that actually unites them is terroristic repression of socialism and perhaps also autocratic government.
>>2845544But libs also do it
bro what if trying to connect the fascisms together into one was a mistake. What if generic fascism doesnt exist? What if trying to make one generic fascism definition is doomed to failure and instead we should recognize the different fascsisms as seperate phenemona
>>2845797Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
>>2846040Western leftist will say this because they want to feel like rebels. None of them have never experienced genuine political repression beyond one senator getting a few people in Hollywood fired, which of course didn't last. Despite facing no political oppressions they've accomplished very little over the past 70 years. So they convince themselves they're fighting Fascism. It's genuinely pathetic and infantile.
>>2872491Western leftists have been experiencing intense, relentless repression pretty much since the end of ww2.
>>2872512Do you genuinely believe this? You'd rather pretend your living in some stupid fantasy then admit the failures of your movement.
>>2872530Yes, the repression has been intense and relentless. The fact that this comes as a surprise to you suggests you need to educate yourself more on this issue. Hope this helps, my friend!
>>2872538Tell me what massacre's you went through, how many tens of thousands of your members were arrested, the thugs who threatned your families?
>>2872544if anything they enjoyed pure dominance and shaped society.
>>2872560I wouldn't go that far, but they've never faced political repression and they've been incredibly dominant in academia for nearly 50 years. Despite that, they've accomplished absolutely nothing.
>>2872560>>2872563Who let fox news in here lmao
>>2872590saying western leftists aren't facing oppression or repression isn't fox news.
ngl, most of the Marxist definitions of fascism are only better than the fascist definitions of fascism.
daily reminder of that conference in 1931 when fascists and Fascists couldn't decide what the fuck they were doing at all
>>2872619It is, along with bullshit like
>they enjoyed pure dominance and shaped society.Or
>they've never faced political repression and they've been incredibly dominant in academia for nearly 50 years.You should get off the internet and do something to connect back with reality.
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