This quote alone instantly discredits everything Fanon has ever said. It is clear that he has no actual understanding of Marxism and was just a retarded religious faggot. Islamic "Socialism" is bullshit, Christian "Socialism" is bullshit, Jewish "Socialism" is bullshit, Buddhist and Hindu and pagan, it's all bullshit. Religion is fake nonsense for retards.
fanonoids… our response?
Veiling is primarily a cultural rather than a religious practice. Very few Muslim Albanians wear head coverings, for instance.
Despite this claim of his not being entirely materialist, what he is saying is true, especially with the rise of the "ex-Muslim" pick me's. I think he could have made a more materialist analysis on this but him identifying the West's obsession with being seen as "the liberators" in general is true. This particular case he is talking about is, imo, a result of women being seen as a commodity, not as an individual.
>>2821586is he? all he's doing is pro-non-western nonsense to make his point, outright rejecting the idea that they very well could be right, and that the hallowed, local traditions could be wrong
>>2821519What he said is true if only they willing wear the veil
>>2821586Western leftists not siding with ex-Muslims and siding with the worst Islamists is their own fault,
>>2821641What should we side with them over? Obviously people should have the right to leave Islam and yes Islam is a repressive religion in most interpretations but so is Christianity, should we make common cause with the fascist theocrat government in attacking Muslims? We need a tactical alliance with Muslims for our sakes and theirs.
Fanon, Said, Foucault, and Sartre were all just leftist intellectuals who only ever influenced self-hating white people and neurotic diaspora.
>>2821644"tactical alliances" don't actually achieve anything, you don't gain anything by hypocritically attacking christianity's creep on society while simultaneously defending the muslim creep on society too, instead you do what has to be done, and attack both honestly
>>2821649Ok, in fucking Indonesia or something? What does that have to do with our politics in the west? Obviously killing ex-Muslims is bad and if that was actually a threat in the west which it isn't, we should oppose it.
>>2821652Attacking Muslim 'creep' is fair but where is that actually happening in the west?
>>2821654maybe with the fact that it's establishing itself as a minority religion, and thus represents a potential base of support? likewise we should do what we can for those in countries where islamist creep is strong, just as we are for countries with christian creep as well
>>2821558I'm aware. The Quran barely even says to do it, it's very vague about it. But defending the expectation that women cover themselves up for blatantly sexist reasons is unforgivable. Hijabs are not le based feminism, they are oppressive. Any Socialist should virulently oppose nonsensical moralist restrictions on what people wear.
>>2821586The hijab is undeniably a way in which a society makes a woman a commodity. It shields the view of other men from the women, allowing only her "Owner" (Husband) to see her. The Western position is similar, the Middle Eastern woman is a commodity still but one that exists to be ogled at, since they are not in the possession of the men doing the ogling. If these women were the wives of the man in question, they would want them to cover up to some extent. Fanon is pretending like the hijab is a profound statement of refusing to be commodified but it is the exact opposite, both the Western and Eastern men see them as commodities. The Socialist wishes to liberate all women from this nonsense, and clothing be determined by themselves independent of societal pressure or law. You know, of course, as long as you aren't walking around in a playground with your cock out.
>>2821641It is true that ex-Muslims can be annoying and overcorrect into Zionism but opposition to religion is a noble cause that Marxists should support.
>>2821659>maybe with the fact that it's establishing itself as a minority religion, and thus represents a potential base of support?so we should attack them just for being religious?
while I agree in theory with attacking Islamism in the third world that just ends up giving support to western imperialism.
>>2821667>while I agree in theory with attacking Islamism in the third world that just ends up giving support to western imperialism.is this actually true or is it just a 1950s impulse? because almost every pro-western government in the middle east is islamist or at least was recently, attacking it does nothing to defend imperialism, or whichever, it's an entirely irrelevant point because the contradiction in the middle east and the islamic world isn't imperialism from the west, but from themselves, is the UAE supporting the RSF and other movements a gain for western imperialism, or a gain for itself?
>>2821672>is this actually true or is it just a 1950s impulse?bro, there are thousands of rightoid (and 'centrist' libs) talking heads right now arguing that we can't stop the Iran war because it would be a betrayal of the Iranian people who are living under the tyranny of Islam
>>2821676kill yourself with your pedophile advocacy
>>2821674yeah and the islamist dictatorship isn't really the part that drives the war, it hardly "defends" it by pointing out the factual oppression of islamism on its populace
>>2821681>yeah and the islamist dictatorship isn't really the part that drives the warit is the part that drives a large amount of the public justification for it. yes obviously it's not actually why america attacked but america needs propaganda reasons for what they do to calm the majority
>>2821676
>Idealism is when you believe in things or have an ideology
Kill yourself
>>2821690
>If you think ideas, as opposed to material conditions, shape reality
I never claimed or implied this
>banning hijabs
When did I ever advocate for this?
>>2821690
stop being a little pedophile advocate, ok?
>>2821652And Judaism's influence over media and western govt, which has led to the normalization of Israeli genocides and warmongering
>>2821676
>Regardless, isn’t it curious how as of late Leftypol has received tons of polemical posts on Christianity and Islam, but few with regards to the misogyny found in Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, etc
yeah its pretty lame
>>2821712
you're just a little creep, and no one really likes you, or wants you here, if you could peddle it somewhere else that'd be greatly appreciated. you have mastodon to push that nonsense!
>>2821710
Telling somebody to kill themselves is "Idealism" now? Are we not allowed to talk about "Ideas" without a long acknowledgement that they are simply an extension of material reality and will only ever exist in the context of that material reality? Am I not allowed to talk about how things "Should" be without another acknowledgement stating that it is how I think the world will be under Communism as an inevitable result of our material reality? Do you really want to play this game?
>my qualm
Personal opinion, Idealism
>which is what OP is engaging in
I am OP
>pretends to be
Acknowledging internal thoughts influencing actions, Idealism
>the discourse in OP is basically idealism that is only occurring both because Muslims are the largest religious minority in Europe
Accusing me of intending to assist Imperialism by calling out a theorist (Idealism, theories are idealist because thoughts) for saying nonsense is Idealism. My intention (Idealist concept) is to challenge the idea (Idealism because idea) that regressive practices among oppressed people are okay (Idealist moralism) and to underline the point that all oppression must be opposed (Idealist moralism).
>With that said, I don’t think this conflict is ideological
It's not really, which is one of the reasons why it's not a big deal that I criticized an Islamist belief. Also "Idea" = Idealism.
>America and Saudi Arabia are also the main backers of Wahhabism
Correct, radical Islamism is basically a Western invention of the Cold War so why would we ever defend it? The fact that blowback caused some of them (Axis of Resistance) to be opposed to US Imperialism does not stop the ideology from being regressive and worthy of criticism. I support the AoR against the US and Israel, but I refuse to pretend (Idealist individualism) that their ideology (Idealist concept) isn't regressive.
>>2821739plus a lot of critisism of the hijab from western men are mostly over them being racist gooners rather then any actual femenist anylasis that you might find from women from the muslim world critisisng the hijab
>>2821740still a oversimplefied capeshit take worth critisism tho
>>2821727u type like a liberal son
>>2821727> I support the AoR against the US and IsraelSame, although much like with Hamas it’s only because they’re the only groups actively opposing the rentier capitalist class that currently runs the trans-Atlantic empire, as opposed to the “superpower” of China which is more or less part of the unipolar world order alongside America, as well as Russia whose support for the AoR in west Asia has been lacklustre.
Not sure why, but it probably has to do with Russia’s friendly relations with Israel since the latter has the largest russophobe population outside of the post-Soviet states and probably due to Israeli lobbying in Russia much like how Israel has lobbied acting on its behalf in America and the EU. But probably it’s in Russia’s interests to have the Middle East burn since it needs a pressure valve to counter separatist militantism in north Caucasus, and what’s better than to have Chechen men fight wars in the Middle East under the banner of Islamist militias?
I’m not well-versed in Russian domestic politics, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia has an Israeli lobby since it already has an Armenian one, although I think it’s more similar to the dynamics between Albania and Turkey as opposed to being as one-sided as the relations between America and Israel.
An example would be Kosovo: Turkey previously had warm relationships with Serbia, until it recognised Kosovo’s independence. The reason? It was due to Albanian lobbying, as Turkey has a very large Albanian diaspora counting in the millions if you include those with Albanian ancestry with many being active in Turkish politics.
Consequently, Albania is the most zionist country among all OIC members, and only recognised Palestinian statehood due to Turkish pressure.
>>2822202
Women are for breeding. Goats are for fun.
>>2821519you're right but this is a very low quality thread and a very low quality OP. marx's critique was always of class society, because class society produces religion. religion is the reflection of class society, a superstructural element meant to retroactively justify the mode of production. This is why religions change to match the time.
>>2822177> They'd rather govern themselves badly than be told what to do (even if it's for their own good)yes, most adults are mentally teenagers sadly
>>2822177>Like it's just that people don't want to be "liberated" by others when that's really a guise to control them.The chinese say that the egg cracked from the inside is new life, while the egg cracked from the outside is food. Even though it is true that the proletariat has no nation, if a given nation's proletariat receives aid from an outside power, they are framed as treasonous 5th columnists. This is why it was always so easy for red scare propaganda to frame socialists of any nation as mere "Kremlin puppets."
>>2822226The near entirety of the african continent has only apathic western puppets as rulers, and litterally nothing happens to them.
Hate those statement that pretend the CIA is the only agency that can topple governments because le public opinion will do something against commies even tho they do jack shit against others.
>>2822138This is absolutely not at all what I said. If every woman chose to walk around in burqas without any societal pressure influencing that decision then I would be perfectly fine with that. My problem is that I do not believe that women should be forced or pressured to wear certain clothing for misogynistic reasons. Is that such a horrifying thing to say?
>>2822158>>2822177Alright, I suppose that's fair enough. I suppose I put too much faith in the people using the quote, assuming they were correctly analyzing his work and presenting it in a proper manner. That's my bad, continuing that misinterpretation uncritically. I should have known better. With context, the actual content of the quote isn't even really objectionable.
>>2822202tfw you ask a bordigist to explain their beliefs and they do a Hitler salute
>>2822222First of all, quints. Second of all, yeah kinda.
>>2822248how about we just let people wear hijab if they want to or not wear it if they don't want to? crazy concept I know
>>2822275>>2822277>muh "free" choicei hate liberals so much it's unreal
>>2822284obviously there's no such thing as actual, spooky 'free choice' entirely unaffected by society, that doesn't mean that it's equally morally equivalent to wear something because you want to wear it, and to be forced to wear something at gunpoint, obviously one of those decisions is 'more free' than the other.
>>2822285The problem is that women are usually not forced to wear head coverings by gunpoint, but by threat of familial and social exclusion. This is bad enough in firstoid countried but in the third world this exclusion would mean a lot of women would be homeless and dead probably. It's patriarchal policing basically. So even though many or most muslim women do wear head coverings by choice, there are serious social and economic consequences if they might not. Go talk to some young muslim or ex-muslim women if you want to understand what is so difficult about the situation.
"Burqa bans" or whatever aren't effective because they aren't tackling the patriarchy that is the actual problem. Cultural clothing styles are just styles.
>>2821653>Ok, in fucking Indonesia or something? What does that have to do with our politics in the west?Read The Jakarta Method and you'll find out.
Trvke
>>2822297Here in kazakhstan they banned burkhas and hijab in school, the muslims bitched about it thinking their opinions matter, then the state cracked down and they stfu
You can just do things, all those "complicated" issues ain't so complicated
>>2822284Choosing to not try and force people to do things is not idealism. I am not making any claim of the existence of "Free will" or any of that bullshit, you're just being a pedantic cunt.
>>2822297We know, this is why we seek to abolish these societal pressures. No serious Marxist is proposing that we ban hijabs.
>>2822340Nothing I said is anti-arab. I am anti-Islam but only because I am anti-religion. I do not see religious people as inherently bad, so I would not call myself "Anti-Muslim". "Islamism", which I mentioned in the title, is an Ideology and not a religion. I hate Qutbists and Takfiris and the sort, not "Muslims" as a whole. I would prefer everybody to abandon religion altogether, but oh well.
>>2822284I mean, you might as well forego free will and have technocratic dictatorships like the ones proposed by Curtis Yarvin. If it’s impossible to make a free choice due to muh dynamics, you might as well the experts make the decisions for you.
What’s that? You don’t like others making decisions for you? Well, sucks to be a child, isn’t it? But hey, free choice is impossible, and muh inequality means free will is impossible, ergo just be a determinist LOL
>>2821519 Based Take Comrade Trenchrat, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️! In the future Global USSR, all religion will be outlawed, all Churches/Mosques/Synagogues/Pagodas/Temples will be bulldozed by the International Red Guards, all Priests/Ministers/Imams/Rabbis/Monks/Nuns will be forced to march through the streets wearing dunce caps, attend struggle sessions, and get sent to re-education camps to embrace the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the Highest Stage of Marxism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️!
When it comes to the specific question of Burqas/Hijabs, they will be banned alongside all other forms of religious clothing, with any woman that wears a Burqa/Hijab being arrested by Female (mostly Lesbian) International Red Guards who will remove her Burqa/Hijab, shave her head, force her to march through the streets wearing a dunce cap, attend struggle sessions, and get sent to a re-education camp to embrace the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the Highest Stage of Marxism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️ 💇♀️👩🦲!
Additionally, the Global Maoist Great Proletariat Cultural Revolution will flatten the Socially Constructed Reactionary Gender Binary, through the International Red Guards forcing all Women to have extremely short hair (Pixie cut or shorter, with a Shaved head being the most Historically Progressive), with all women that violate this having their heads forcibly shaved by Female (mostly Lesbian) International Red Guards and forced to March through the streets wearing Dunce Caps on their way to the re-education camps where they are re-educated to embrace the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, and Dresses and Makeup/Lipstick being banned in order to liberate Women from the chains of Bourgeois Femininity/Domesticity, while all Western Business Suits and Traditional Religious Clothing are banned as well with everyone wearing Mandatory Mao Suits, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚀☢️ 💇♀️👩🦲!
>westoid not understanding the value of modesty for the billionth time
>>2821519Pretty obvious you didn't even read Fanon given that he was himself anti-religious and anti-veiling. His comment here are psychoanalytical one: white colonizers are obsessed with making veiled native women sexually available. Nothing really special there. That psychoanalysis isn't taken to be materialist shows us just how piss poor the average netdewlling leftists' understanding of Marxist materialism really is.
The obsession with veiling is basically ethnocentric. I simply don't buy ideas that women are forced or coerced into veiling or that veiling is inherently misogynistic, because these attitudes assume that a European notion of femininity (walking around bare headed) is somehow a natural impulse and not itself a culturally conditioned response. In some human cultures, women veil and in others they go around bare breasted. What's normal and natural to wear is context dependent. This is simple human cultural variation. The fact that so many leftists feel the need to turn third world women's sartorial choices into symbols of misogyny which they have authorized themselves to remove reveals their ethnocultural biases. There's nothing inherently patriarchal about veiling, anymore than its patriarchal for Yanomami women to walk around bare breasted.
>>2822297>familial and social exclusionAnd I'm sure most women who wear a blouse to work or put on make up and own handbags would face pressure if they refused to do these things. Is that patriarchal policing? Assuming that is the case, should we abolish handbags and miniskirts? When it comes to women's dress that people don't like, people always resort to clever arm twisting to justify it on the grounds of misogyny. "Yes yes, they choose to live this way, but their choices aren't real choices so we gotta get rid of it." I preferred the old fashioned racism of the old days, when people were at least honest.
Funny how its always third world pieces of dress that patriarchy stickered onto them. We only seem to have a problem with labiaplasty when African women do it and foot binding was a horrific patriarchal practice but not wearing stillettos, which also deform the feet overtime. When Juliet commits suicide to join Romeo its a romantic tragedy, when Hindu women commit suicide after their husband's death its patriarchy. I'm sure the historic relationship between the West and its third world colonies and ex-colonies has absolutely nothing to do with this, sure.
>>2822925I'm inclined to agree as long as the husband put on the fucking turban and robes, I see muslim constantly be topless while their wife is fully covered besides them in summer, modesty for thee but not for me
>>2823215
jesus it's getting fucked up out here. Where is the ACP chan for anonymity.
>>2823056Imagine being such a fucking thirdiephile that you believe a handbag used to carry shit our a simple blouse is the same as a fucking burqa that exists so that middle east chuds don't feel insecure that their 3rd wife will cheat on them
Hell, imagine thinking that women in the west face being stoned to death for not using a fucking handbag.
Just remove yourself from the genepool.
all the cultist lefty mental patients love fanon and juche
>>2822218When did socialism challenge Western culture? I noticed in the latest Trump visit to China all the Chinese guys were wearing Western style suits. When fans of the USSR want to defend them, they use Western values to do so, e.g. they were more feminist, industrialized quickly, reached space, etc.
>>2821547in this chapter he also describes how the FLN's women cadre stopped veiling to be able to pass as western women to carry out attacks on the french military, and how this was liberatory, connecting to his own elaboration on how liberation through violence happens not because "violence is liberatory" in itself but because the circumstances in which you need to violently liberate yourself will tend towards distinguishing necessity from comfort in the same way it distinguishes comrade from fair-weather-ally
i used to make actual effortposts in response to people here treating fanon as a leftlib "postmodern" punching bag but not worth it anymore, only advice is just actually read his books trying to understand them instead of trying to be a holier than thou deboonker
>>2823399reading through the thread now after replying to the first respond, & not a single person who has actually read it so far.
i had misremembered that this was from WotE, its from another essay called Algeria Unveiled, has anybody shared it in this thread yet? posting both for good measure, and screencaps of the instance i was remembering. read it for yourself.
>>2823474
what the fuck is that first image, is this some attempt at stealth pedo shit? obviously a man im his 20s surprising a 14 year old girl with things is fundamentally different than a 15 or 16 year old boy doing so. and even then, there is a huge difference between 14 & 16 vs 24 & 26. i must be misunderstanding something because idk anybodu who thinks its normal or okay for a man in his 20s to "date" a 14 year old girl. yes, the correct word for that is grooming
>>2823474
>>2823471
drop dead pedouyghur
>>2823514Not exactly 'stealth' lol
>>2823536
the "riddle" youre talking about is such obvious obfuscation that no one who doesnt want to fuck kids cares about it
normally i hate anecdotal evidence, but in this case, i remember being 14. i remember thinking now im a big kid. i remember thinking 20 year olds are grown adults, they are generally respected and generally know whats going on. i wasnt a stupid kid, i knew they were still wrong about most things, i knew they werent that knowledgable or well lived. but i had a level of deference and seriousness towards them i didnt have towards my peers. because they were grown ups and i was still a kid.
now ive been 20 years old, now im 30 years old, and all i see now is that if you see a 14 year old as a sexual prospect, i want to see you hanging from a streetlight
>>2823551>>2823416>>2823399not the topic of the thread btw, i want to hear from someone after they actually read
>>2823264If insults were a substitute for evidence and argument, you'd get the win. Sadly they are not.
>>2823501Not sure why you brought up Amel's criticism of Said, It has practically nothing to do with my argument. Amel's critique of Said is pretty crappy strawman anyway. "It doesn't align with Marx therefore it is wrong" has basically been the Marxist reaction to anything written after the year 1900.
>>2823566
>xitter post
>but jesus and didnt you consider aoc laws!!!
youre either a weird teenager or a pedo
>>2823556What a non-argument you’ve got there.
>>2821519>whining about fanon>and for the most strawman retarded fucking reason possible>barely veiled glowfuckeryfucking kys, that you werent instantly banned for such an awful glowing wrecker bait is another proof of how bad the moderation is
>>2823350>When did socialism challenge Western culture?Dunno, all those things about women being property, tradicional useless medicine and christian theocracy. No biggie I guess.
Fanon the incel lmao. I hate that black capitalist
>>2823878
>>2823884
Mods can we fucking ban this guy
>>2823399>in this chapter he also describes how the FLN's women cadre stopped veiling to be able to pass as western women to carry out attacks on the french militaryGreat scene from the Battle of Algiers (1:24:40)
>>2823350>When did socialism challenge Western culture? I noticed in the latest Trump visit to China all the Chinese guys were wearing Western style suits. When fans of the USSR want to defend them, they use Western values to do so, e.g. they were more feminist, industrialized quickly, reached space, etc.>>2823798>Dunno, all those things about women being property, tradicional useless medicine and christian theocracy. No biggie I guess.I'm not sure socialism was originally a generalized anti-Western ideology.
>>2823938>I'm not sure socialism was originally a generalized anti-Western ideology.Bro it's futile arguing with modern hitrelites who think Western=gay. The socialist movement participated in the destruction of the barbarity of european culture, just like it did with the barbarity of chinese culture. Culture relativism is a joke.
Rangeban the pedouyghur already
Damn Fanon is even more based than I imagined
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