Why was the soviet union dissolved when the population voted against it?
I thouht the proles were supposed to be in charge? Did ML's lie to me? I dont believe it.
>what is a coup d'etat
Open history book, literally got couped and hardliners got defeated by CIA backed Drunkard.
>>2824533Yeah the hardliners tried to coup the government and failed.
>>2824516because republics kept declaring independence regardless
>>2824528Yeltsin shelled the parliament with an armored vehicle ?
>>2824516Because the proles were in fact not in control and had already taken to a liberal mindset for quite a while before that point.
Because revolutions are always carried out by organised elites, and what the disorganised mass thinks doesn't matter.
>>2824591Revisionist, read chapter 2 of the manifesto
>>2824594Everything Marx and Engels said has been refuted by how the history of the 20th century played out and how the 21st is currently playing out
The USSR was a form of progressive Caesarism, aka a state which was not ruled directly by the workers but was operated by a "third force" in alliance with them and broad accordance with their interests. Soviet socialism was to the working class what fascism was to the bourgeoisie. Clearly this is a state of affairs that cannot endure indefinitely, which is why so many of these states collapsed while the remaining socialist states have transitioned to some form of genuine proletarian democracy (plus whatever tf is going on in the DPRK).
>>2824679>plus whatever tf is going on in the DPRKThe drpk has basically an identical system to the former ussr. The only difference is the kim family.
Kind of ironic how a de-facto a monarch is actually acting as a revolutionary bulwark because if communisn goes so does the kim family's power.
tldr: dotp and communism proved impossible after the failure of international revolution, the ussr had to make difficult decisions under duress of imperialism and as such the party liquidated and reinvented itself as a reformist social democratic party. fast forward to the 80s, there was a major accumulation crisis, retards are in charge and since the economy was controlled by the party-state, the state had to go, its bounties were handed over to various cliques of the worst scum in the union and western financiers. then the cliques started sending workers to murder each other to enrich them.
>>2824625Tell it to someone who cares, you religious idiot
>voting
Lmao
>>2824862To add onto this, the goals of the new union treaty were pretty much met anyway when the Commonwealth of Independent States. That more or less resembles what the Soviet Union was gonna become once the treaty was signed.
>>2824516Proles wanted treats. They got treats.
Because Stalin was a fucking degenerate who rejected "rootless cosmopolitanism."
>>2824856it was a referendum of Soviet citizens
>>2824792You’re the idealist here revisionist, not me.
>>2824516- because the referendum was vagueposting nonsense
>Do you consider it necessary to preserve the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics, in which the rights and freedoms of a person of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?
"a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics" could mean anything from continuing the USSR as before with a fresh coat of paint to the current Commonwealth of Independent States to the European Union. People voted in favour because it satisfies everyone: a communist reads it and goes "yes, we should preserve the USSR" and a nationalist reads it and goes "yes, we need equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedoms of any nationality are fully guaranteed." In Kazakhstan this was most transparent where they explicitly worded it "equal sovereign
states"
- it was followed up by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Union_Treaty which even fairly explicitly considered changing the whole thing to the meaningless "Union of Sovereign States" and which, even if signed, would've almost certainly collapsed as in our timeline.
the moral lesson of it was that deng was right and you can't speedrun away the development of the productive forces by giving everyone a fetish for central planning, which has nothing to do with socialism in any case. the USSR should be seen as an honorable, even a heroic blunder, but a blunder all the same. china - whether compared to india or to the USSR - has shown it's better to be crazy and experiment widely than to settle in to seemingly sensible stagnation.
but don't make China your emotional support foreign power either. it's entirely possible that the Chinese system of government will prove just as capable of elevating blundering incompetents and outright crooks, and lib-y China watchers aren't wrong to be suspicious that Xi is sticking around longer than is desirable… it's very hard for a man to beat a system but very easy for him to break it. >>2824945One also has to note this: The March 17 referendum happened in a moment, when many of the republics were either de facto already lost for the Union (ie the Baltic states), or declared the supremacy of the republican laws over the union laws (like Russia)
>>2824972Whatever you say, moralist
the soviet union actually fell when de-stalinization began, the gorbie-yeltsin fiasco was just the conclusion
>>2825014I have heard this many times although I didn't look into it. I'm especially thinking about Whitney webb's talking about Robert Maxwell's ties with the Soviet union. She also mentioned some Maxwell adjacent guy whose name I don't recall that said that important private-public ties were being made in the Soviet union which shows a future un which everything is managed by private corporations. There was definitely something fishy going on there, I wish some anon who knows about that could narrate this whole side of the story or show some reference
>>2825028if you want to know more about the deep politics of the late stage soviet union i reccomend the eventsinukraine blog and search for articles on gorbachev and andropov. on Maxwell, and the Israel/USSR relationship there's some information in a book 'Profits of War' by a former Israel agent/arms dealer who was involved in the iran-contra affair. he talks about how maxwell was a mossad agent the main backchannel for communications between israel and the USSR. but also a conduit for technology & cash for slush funds.
>>2825058>>2825070thank you very much
>>2825028>>2825058I’m curious, what are some good works on Soviet anti-Semitism? Because, objectively, it did exist. Even though many Bolsheviks were Jewish, by the Stalin era and especially under Brezhnev, the Soviet system often seemed openly hostile to Jews in practice, even if not always on paper. This ranged from limiting opportunities in academia and government to portraying Jews as politically suspect or disloyal within Soviet society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Soviet_mathematics it wasn't dissolved
>>2827185based lukashenko
>>2825545This is just kvetching and fake news made up by Zionists to justify their immigration to Israel. Jews in the USSR were treated no differently than anyone else.
>>2824564>an armored vehicle It was a tank, just call it a tank. They also killed around 1000 people, iirc.
>>2825545I thought the Soviet Union was a Judeo-Bolshevist plot to kill Christians…
>>2825545'openly hostile' how?
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