/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>2833934
French new left are bourgeois reactionnaries who destroyed de Gaulle in may 68.
May 68 represents the victory of liberalism, both socially and economically, the old left was denounced as being too conservative, and afterwards, sexual, romantic, relations became part of the capitalistic economy, transformed into a market.
it is not shocking in that view that the last remant of laws against sexual relations were attempted to be teared down by the new Left.

It was based and proletarian dish out against the bourgeois reactionary moralisms of the time.

>>2833937
LOL imagine defending a bourgeois reactionary like DeGaulle. Next you'll defend Churchill, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR as proletarian.

While I do agree that the new left made a mistake by allowing sex to be commercialised for a while, I still don't follow your point on sexuality which is akin to that of Ben Shapiro.

Are you homophobe by any chance?

>>2833940
>LOL imagine defending a bourgeois reactionary like DeGaulle.
De Gaulle was a left-wing nationalist leader in terms of policy, putting in place large state programs, creating social housing, supported a nationalised economy, and the political indepenance of France. It is a self evident as to why the Americans wanted him out.
The New left in France, to this day, hate the French and French culture, even the French language, whom they decry as sexist, and glorify anglo-saxons culture, portraying them as freer and more equal then French culture.
>While I do agree that the new left made a mistake by allowing sex to be commercialised for a while, I still don't follow your point on sexuality which is akin to that of Ben Shapiro.

My point is that "Jouissez sans entrâve" was a major slogan of the sexuak revolution and may 68. Under that logic there is no reason as to why you shouldn't be able to have sex with a child, hence why the new left tried to abolish age of consent laws. This liberation of sexuality was a mistake, as it allow sexual relations to become a market, as you can see this today, with dating apps and the porn industry. Women's positions haven't improved with the sexual revolution, they've just turned into sexual objets and men into sex freaks.
It's no shock that Daniel Cohn Bendit has become a neoliberal.
>Are you homophobe by any chance?
No, but in any case Homosexuality had already been legalised in France since the French Revolution, apart from Vichy French era, homosexuals weren't persecuted by the state.

>>2833944
DeGaulle literally ran a colonial empire and practiced resource extraction, or have you forgotten about that?
"He supported a nationalised economy" so did Hitler and ᴉuᴉlossnW tho. Are they left-wingers as well?

At least Jean-Paul Sartre had the courtesy of being a nominal communist.

>Under that logic there is no reason as to why you shouldn't be able to have sex with a child

Considering the current inceldom epidemic and given how sexually repressed society is, the signatories were spot on. Like, why is it le bad if there's no evidence that most cases result in trauma, unless you think the harm is primarily moral/abstract.

I had sex with a 18 yo slut when I was 12, and she was the neighbourhood'd bicycle. Under the current puritanical dogma I should've been traumatised, and yet I didn't, which is partially why I'm sceptical of purity culture from either the far-left or far-right.

Btw, when did you lose your virginity, and when was the last time you masturbated?

>This liberation of sexuality was a mistake, as it allow sexual relations to become a market, as you can see this today, with dating apps and the porn industry. Women's positions haven't improved with the sexual revolution, they've just turned into sexual objets and men into sex freaks.

You could believe that if you're a boomer, otherwise this just doesn't hold up at all. Male heterosexuality is far more policed than ever before, and even in France this notion that the country is some post-Christian sexual paradise doesn't hold up when you look at the actual laws such as on prostitution, age ID, and youth sexuality.

If anything, we are going back to an anti-sexual revolution as exemplified by Trump, Starmer, and Macron and others.

I also disagree on "women's positions haven't improved". They did, as the sexual revolution effectively led to the liberalisation of sexual norms that contained women within the patriarchal household.

Sure, you can do the "women's paradox of happiness" thingy, but it doesn't negate that the 2020s and 2010s have been a golden age for womanhood, and that all of it is downstream from the cultural revolutions of the 1960s of which the sexual revolution and free sex movements were part of.

If anything, the objection shouldn't be against the sexual revolution per se, as much as its co-optation by the forces of capital and how it didn't go far enough, be it in France or the USA (the birthplace of the sexual revolution, and ironically one of the most puritanical countries in the developed world).

>>2833949
GET OUT PEDOPHILE NO ONE WANTS YOU HERE

>>2833950
Why u so mad?

>>2833958
You keep spamming this website with all your shitty ai generate posts no one gives a shit about, get out.

Most people's genes are ATCG but Fr*nch genes go RAPE

De Gaulle did many many good things domestically as the other anon said but the man became so awful on geopol after WW2 and did completely incoherent self sabotaging things all the time.
>After killing one trillion algerian insurgent we will give them their country back because i don't want them in france anyway but actually lets import a million of them still to do manual labor while our stay-behing gladio is doing brenton tarrant shit in the old colony
I also don't get the point of making yourself a dictator just to cave in and resign like that, real ᴉuᴉlossnW being deposed by the council of fascism for sucking too much moment.

>>2833937
Anti-imperialism and "opressed nations" is new left

>>2833940
Picking some random rightoid and insisting that they're actually a revolutionary hero is practically a leftypol tradition at this point. I'm sure we all remember the Park Chung-Hee schizo.

>>2834025
No it isn't, it comes from Lenin.

>>2834025
oppressed nations is a lenin phrase libtard kys

>>2834026
I'm not calling de Gaulle a hero, but in terms of policy he was to the left of the world created by may 68, ie Neoliberalism.

>>2834025
Marx talked about oppressed nations, he used Poland and Ireland as exemple, wtf are you talking about.

>>2834034
How do you figure that May 68 created neoliberalism?

>>2833959
>Muh samefags
Ok boomer.

Btw, you’ve still got to answer my questions.
>>2834038
>How do you figure that May 68 created neoliberalism?
Given his conservative leanings, he’ll probably answer it as you’d expect of a paternalistic conservative.

>>2834038
In France, the link is fairly obvious.
De Gaulle had a dirigiste economic view, believing the economy to be subservient to the state, essentially like China today. May 68 removed de Gaulle, without changing political regime, his sucessors, while claming of him, all had more liberal policies, Macron being the end result of this.

But, I go further then this, and claim that may 68 was liberal in its aims.
Already, the people at the head of it were university students, not workers. Even if some would later join.
And even, the revolts weren't simply against De Gaulle, they were also against the PCF, the communist party, accusing them of being too conservative. They opposed them based on a vague "anti authoritarian" stance, and most of the slogans of may 68 were primarly based on the idea of liberty, especially sexual liberty. This led to the destruction of the more traditional social bonds that capitalism hadn't yet marketed, Familial structures, local communities, etc. In favor of individualism. Liberty was the prime motto of the event, this is something that is taken again by neoliberalism.
May 68 was pro-american, denoucing France as a backward culture instead of the free american culture.An attitude that is still present today in the French Left even if the atlanticism has declined, mostly because of Trump. The French left denounces the French language as sexist for exemple.


I think Michel Clouscard's texts are best read to understand this vision.

>>2834042
Raping children is bad !

>>2834048
Not sure why you’re obsessed with rape. No one promoted it ITT. You sound like a radfem that thinks all heterosexual sex is rape tbh. You’re yet to answer my questions doe

>>2834047
Yours is a very ideological reading of the May 68 events, especially since many of its supporters were communists, just Euro communists and Maoists as opposed to stalinists as the PCF took the Soviet side during the Sino-Soviet split. It also can’t be denied that there were legitimate elements of reactionary forces within the PCF itself that said party refused to confront throughout the 20th century.

Besides, I don’t get where you got that part about the French left praising America LOL. Both the French right and left despise America as it exists, believing “Europe” (which Russia and Turkey are conveniently excluded from) to be superior and seeing America as only a tool meant to be subservient to their European imperium, as shown by the visceral European reaction to Trump’s proposal to annex the Franco-British colony of Canada, which many French nationalists see it as an outpost for the European imperium alongside Israel, LatAm and Australia. Have you forgotten how anti-American the French left got over the Iraq war, or what?

And it’s to no one’s surprise, considering how west European culture in general is pretty bourgeois, whereas American culture is nowadays prole-coded

If anything, what you’ve said in the last points is more applicable to the German new left which is just idpol neoconservatism given its penchant for supporting the American bourgeoisie as represented by the US democratic Party as well as repeating busherite talking points about Israel and Islam.

>>2834068
Please stop replying to my post, I don't want to talk to you.

Foaucoult raped Algerian children

>>2834073
You mean Morroccan and no he didnt

>>2834078
They're right next to each other he probably raced both.
Are you a zionist?

>>2834072
You don’t want to talk to me because you hate being scrutinised on your opinions as you’re unable to actually defend them when confronted, hence your conservatism.

>>2834073
Untrue as Michel was never charged with rape (much less with Algerian boys, as the boys in question were Tunisian), on the top of that claim resting on the contradictory and conflicting statements made by French Jewish intellectual Guy Sorman: https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/idees-et-debats/michel-foucault-et-la-pedophilie-enquete-sur-un-emballement-mediatique_2148517.html

Nevertheless, even the allegations themselves don’t really describe rape as much as sex tourism involving paying Arab boys for sex, which is honestly innocuous compared to what Marc Dutroux. That the dubious allegations over Michel even caused a stir in France alongside the general shitshow over Gabriel Matzneff goes to show how Americanised France has become, as sex negativity in France is basically a modern American feminist import alongside MeToo-ism.

>>2834082
>Untrue as Michel was never charged with rape (much less with Algerian boys, as
<the boys in question were Tunisian),
>Nevertheless, even the allegations themselves don’t really describe rape as much as
<sex tourism involving paying Arab boys for sex
The fact that you chose to defend him with this is in its own very questionable.

>>2834084
Paying BOYS for "sex" is child rape. This zionist defender of liberal stooges like Foucault. Is letting his zionism show

>>2834082
If anything, a committed socialist would have to agree that prostitution is rape

>>2834082
There is no point saying anything to you because you're a pedophile.

>>2834084
Michel Foucault was never charged with rape in his lifetime, plus the allegations themselves all come from Guy Sorman, whose claims aren’t verified and are contradictory.

Nonetheless, getting pissy over this is ridiculous as Foucault is no Dutroux, and Guy never described torture. He literally says Foucault made love with the Tunisian boys in question. Frankly, I see it as a non-issue and it doesn’t indict Foucault. If anything, his biased commentary on the gulags and his support for Khomeini during the Iranian revolution are far more damning of his ideas if anything.

Honestly, these anti-sexual puritanical attacks on leftist men by contards and much of the left (especially radfems) are low-autism score idpol meant to enforce reactionary thought policing.

It was a social revolution in france, and french people are gooners

>>2834086
Depends on whether you think the same goes for male prostitutes or not, considering how no one can agree upon on what is “rape” (as shown by how few here agree that sex by deception is rape despite said deception technically making the consent questionable if we insist upon a consent-based definition of rape) on the top of there being a double standard where leftists go after female prosties but somehow male (especially adult) prosties are rarely touched upon, besides the fact that nobody here can agree upon as to whether men can be raped or not (especially by the opposite sex) without anal penetration. There really is no consensus on it, I’m afraid.

>>2834087
More cope from Americanised contards who can’t defend their worldviews, hence why they resort to HS-level girl posse-type name calling. I’m sure you aren’t far from calling me a Hitlerite, amirite?

Besides, you don’t get to lecture me on sexual matters with your bourgeois moralisms when you support the second French empire of all things LOL

>>2834085
Why is it rape?

>>2834098
Litterally just making shit up at this point, I've never supported the second french empire.

>>2834095
Must be their Latin genes pushing through. Iberian conquistadores in the early modern period and Italian fascist troops in the 20th century were known for being quite rapey.

And the best modern example I can think are the hypersexual and sensuous Latinx of the Americas, the French philosophers of the Cold War that seem to be all pedophilic (even the lesbian feminist Simone de Beauvoir was a pedo, or korephile in lezspeak), and Andrew Cuomo of NYC.

>>2834088
I don't claim to know much about what Foucault did. Just the fact that you personally think that paying children for sex is somehow in any way defensible is very suspicious.

>>2834105
Then why simping for De Gaulle and the PCF, both of whom supported the second French empire with the latter still supporting French neocolonialism?

Bet you think Franceafrique is just “woke nonsense” made up by Americans like the average French conservative.

I mean, it wouldn’t be shocking given how the French have a penchant for using the most radical ideas imaginable just to reconstruct liberal conservatism. As the old saying goes:

“the French speak left but their money is on the right”

>>2834117
He's a regular troll, he's been banned so many times yet he keeps coming back.
>>2834124
The second empire died years before de Gaulle was even born. De Gaulle is also the one who ended the colonial empire, you don't know shit about French History.

>>2834098
>There really is no consensus on it, I’m afraid.
It's pretty simple actually. If your body is a commodity, and is being coerced and exploited, it is rape.
You cannot consent to being coerced into sex.

>>2834126
More cowardice on your part. If you thought I really was wrong, then you’d actually engage with my points as opposed to running away from conflict like your Fuhrer.

Besides, I was clearly referring to the post-1830 second French COLONIAL empire! You know, the one your dear fucking Gaulle re-established control over via the French Union and French Community, whose stranglehold in central Africa and the Sahel region continues to this day?

Bet you didn’t know that? Typical of you contards. So here’s a good video on the subject: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=36vYRkVYeVw

At this point, there’s not much you French reactionaries can do to hide it. At this point anyone not living under a rock is well aware of the French tentacles that are deep-rooted into its former African colonies.

France is the enemy of Africa for as long as the French (both leftist and rightist) refuse to recognise the humanity of Africans.

>>2834154
Please explain why colonialism is inherently bad without resorting to appeals to morality

>>2834154
I've engaged many times with your points and all you do is deny everything, there is no point arguing with you. You still can't explain why drunk driving should be banned and child rape (children can't consent) is legal.

You weren't clearly refering to the colonial empire, no one calls it the "second colonial empire" You obviously are a retard who confused de Gaulle and Napoleon III.
He granted gradual independance to african colonies, and granted full independance to Algeria. I'm not arguing he was an anti-colonialist, nor that he was perfect, but he was the most anti-colonial french president, and far more to the left then the people who lead may 68.
Daniel Cohn Bendit is a Macronist, far more right wing then de Gaulle.

>>2834151
Except that isn’t the common definition of rape. Rather, it’s yours. Most legal definitions of rape in the west used to include force as the main criteria, with that being replaced by “consent”, and even then:

1. It’s very recent, with Denmark adopting it less than 6 years ago for example despite being a feminist haven.
   
   
2. Plus nowhere in the world is sex by deception legally punishable or deemed as rape despite the fact that deception should in theory undermine said consent.
   
   

Besides, by the same token I could also argue that street-cleaning is commodifying and exploitative of the worker, yet I don’t see leftists being as outraged about it as compared to prostitution.

>>2834117
It’s a big deal as opposed to paying for sex with adults because… why?

>>2834157
Colonialism has long stopped being a force for material progress a long time ago, and instead it’s just a tool by the bourgeoise to hold back progress by forcing agrarian societies of the third world to adopt de-industrialisation and financialisation to stop the proletarianisation of said societies that comes along with industrialisation. Read Lenin.

>>2833937
Are you the Phrygian Cap anon of the /francopol/ thread? I tend to generally agree with you, but I'm a bit disappointed that you are basically repeating the same talking points as Libération and Alain Finkielfraut when it comes to May 68.

It's impossible to understand May 68 without understanding that:
1) May 68 was absolutely not a singular French phenomenon, but part of the worldwide 1968 protests which happened simultaneously in:

• The US (assassination of MLK, anti-Vietnam movement)
  
• West Germany (shooting of Rudi Dutschke, Adorno dying of an heart attack after looking at boobies)
  
• Czechoslovakia (Prague Spring)
  
• Japan (Zengakuren)
  
• Mexico (Tlatelolco massacre)
  
• Pakistan (resignation of Ayub Khan)
  
• Yugoslavia
  

And last but not least, the operaismo movement of Italy and the subsequent Years of Lead, which lasted more than 10 years. In 1969, the workers of the Fiat factory of Turin organized the biggest strike in Europe within the biggest factory of Europe. By 1980, the Bologna train station was bombed by neo-fascists, killing 85 people in the most left-wing city of Italy.

2) May 68 in France, just like in Italy, started with workers, especially in the automobile industry, going on strike, and then students allied to workers because they had their own grievances, and were generally left-wing, a lot of were inspired by communism, notably Maoism, and Che Guevara died the year before (see the movie La Chinoise by Godard).
You need to understand that once workers and students start an alliance against the state and the bourgeoisie, this is extremely dangerous for the powers that be, because they have both the currently productive workers and the future educated workers against them.
The figure of Cohn-Bendit emerged, but he was seen by many as a "recupération" of the revolt, especially by groups like the Situationiste Internationale, and various Maoist and anarchist groups.
The real thing that killed the revolutionary fervor of May 68 was when the PCF and trade-unions decided to collaborate with the bourgeois government of De Gaulle by signing the Grenelle accords, and told everyone to go back to work. Which in my opinion, shows that conventional communist parties in Europe like the PCF and PCI were class-collaborationists who were much more interested in establishing a bureaucratic managerial state than in a real revolutionary movement in favor of the proletariat.

>>2833944
Regarding De Gaulle, his "socialist policies" were basically dirigisme, or capitalism with direct state intervention in crucial sectors of the economy and some Keynesian policies to favor full employment, while not giving too much power to labour.
It's better than neoliberalism for sure, I wouldn't mind a few Keynesian reforms, but this was basic capitalism in most of Europe before we got infested by the brainworms of Thatcher and Reagan, nothing extraordinary.
Geopolitically, he started a war that lasted for more than a decade in Algeria.
And don't forget his private militia, the SAC, which went rogue under Giscard and killed Robert Boulin when he had dirt on the supremely corrupt Balladur and Chirac.

Read this book, https://www.tempscritiques.net/spip.php?livre16, click on "Sommaire", read a few chapters, and you will see the history of May 68 is much more complex than what the Nouvel Obs says about it every year.
The real problem of May 68 is that, as Bourdieu said, it was a failed revolution, and the bourgeoisie since then made sure it will never happen again. But it was a genuine attempt at a revolution for sure.

>>2834166
It's not my definition, it's the principalled socialist definition.
>Besides, by the same token I could also argue that street-cleaning is commodifying and exploitative of the worker, yet I don’t see leftists being as outraged about it as compared to prostitution.
picrel

>>2834047
Very interesting. Have you ever read picrel? It also makes the connection between the New Left and neoliberalism. It points out that the New Left regarded the fusion of the state and private sector that characterized postwar social democracy as a unified oppressive apparatus, and that the weakening of the state would inevitably lead to the weakening of the whole system. This led to them at times forming alliances with the proto-neoliberal and libertarian movements, albeit with very different ends in mind.

>>2834166
>Plus nowhere in the world is sex by deception legally punishable or deemed as rape despite the fact that deception should in theory undermine said consent.
actually it is, in many places actually, if you're HIV+

>>2834164
>I've engaged many times with your points and all you do is deny everything

Proof?
Cuz all I’ve seen on your part are name-calling and strawmanning, such as with drunk driving. Drunk driving isn’t a sexual orientation nor causes as much outrage as violating random sexual norms, so your analogy already fails. In fact, at no point you ever showed evidence for your claims, insisting that I take them by faith like a typical conservative who appeals to so-called “common sense” like “communism doesn’t work”.

Oh, and I’m still waiting for the evidence on heterosexual sex being inherently harmful that isn’t plagued by sample bias, confounds, inconsistent definitions, implying causation from correlation alone, and other flaws.

>children can’t consent
Neither can gay men consent to gay sex in Nigeria due to anti-sodomy laws, nor Saudi women can consent to extra-marital due to anti-adultery laws. Does that mean that they are incapable of being willing participants at all times?

>You weren't clearly refering to the colonial empire, no one calls it the "second colonial empire" You obviously are a retard who confused de Gaulle and Napoleon III.

LOL you’re such a bad liar, no wonder you refuse to debate me since you’d know you’d lose as hard as Matt Walsh did when he tried to debate on Haiti only to get a lesson on Haitian history. And yes, the “second French colonial empire” is an actual term however much you French conservatives want to deny it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire

>He granted gradual independance to african colonies, and granted full independance to Algeria. I'm not arguing he was an anti-colonialist, nor that he was perfect, but he was the most anti-colonial french president, and far more to the left then the people who lead may 68.

Pfft. Right…
Next you’ll tell me the Vichy regime was actually patriotic because it only sent non-French Jews to the camps instead of French Jews, as Eric Zemmour argues. Speaking of Zemmour, I bet you’re his fan given your defense of French colonialism and neocolonialism.

>No no, de Gaulle left the colonies
>What do you mean neocolonialism, franceafrique and the second French colonial empire?
>REEEEEE! FRANCE CAN NEVER DO WROOOONG! IT’S ALL AMERICA’S FAULT YOU PEASANTS!

C’mon, just admit that you’re just a French ethno-narcissist who dresses his opinions with a leftist tinge, just like Keith Woods.

I mean, I knew we Europeans are incapable of introspection, but to see it in situ is a first time, much like that eurocrat who labelled Europe as a garden of Eden surrounded by barbarism.

Welp, I guess France (left, right or centre) really is the enemy of Africa.

>>2834047
>De Gaulle had a dirigiste economic view, believing the economy to be subservient to the state, essentially like China today.
China has a lot of the exact same problems as France nowadays: low wages (that's why Chinese smartphones are so cheap, it's not magic), high real estate prices, a youth unemployment rate of 15%. While /leftypol/ love to simp for China as the savior of the 21th century, most serious economists and Chinese analysts know that there has been an economic downturn there since COVID and they never truly recovered. The young Chinese people and expats I've talked to are both scared of being replaced with AI and the "curse of 35". There is no welfare programs in China like in France btw.
Not saying China is evil, I like China and I respect how the CPC managed to modernize the country so quickly, but it's not even a social democracy economically-speaking.

>>2834177
Let's inverse the thesis: What if liberals co-opted the critiques of the New Left for their own aims? People like Foucault, Bourdieu, Deleuze and Guattari were genuinely in favor of labour struggles and minority rights (ok for Foucault, by the end of his life, he said some unsavory things about neoliberalism and the Ayatollah Khomeini, but otherwise he was left-wing), liberals selectively took the parts that criticized the traditional Marxist movements as they became more and more ineffectual, but didn't engage with the whole of their critiques.
Agamben uses Foucault and Deleuze in his analyses all the time and he is more radical than 99% of this board (even too much I would say).

If liberals didn't use the New Left for their own aims, they would have found something else.
And it's an indictment of the incapacity of the Old Left to renew itself, especially when, like I said earlier, the PCF in May 68 openly collaborated with De Gaulle to shut down the strikes of automobile workers. It's cool to post ironic Stalin and Gonzalo memes, but at end of the day, it's just an edgy obscure subculture just like grindcore or Troma Entertainment horror movies, most workers don't relate to that.

>>2834189
How about in other contexts? No? Hence my point.

>>2834170
>It's not my definition, it's the principalled socialist definition.
According to whom?

Because even in socialist spaces there’s no commonly accepted definition of rape, much less even among AES countries.
Basically, you’d be hard-pressed to come up with a non-ideological definition of rape, since that in itself is a legalistic concept that always related to property rights, which is why most rape laws until recently didn’t cover male victims of female rapists.

The definition on rape given out by the UK’s 2003 sexual offences acts is one such gendered example of defining rape.

>>2833934
literally who

Pedos

>>2834195
>What if liberals co-opted the critiques of the New Left for their own aims?
That's not a what if, that's literally what happened lol. However I think there was some degree of naivety involved on the New Left. They really had no idea that they were living at the zenith of socialism and worker's power, with the Eastern Bloc at its peak, social democracy and organized labour at its strongest in the West, and national liberation sweeping the third world. They had no idea how good they had it or how bad it could get. This isn't to say that they shouldn't have kept pushing things further, but I think many of them inadvertently ended up arming neoliberalism with some of their critiques as you said. At the time it seemed like the great evil wasn't unrestrained capitalism, but the fusion of capitalism and state bureaucracy, and its not hard to see how an attack on that can be co-opted by libertarians and neoliberals.

France is different they have the first shota president. Also I was jealous of the student Simone de Beauvoir banged when I was a teen.