I’m an anarchist who spent years exploring Islam in my teen years in the early 2010s only to convert to Catholicism in 2018 on the basis Catholicism was the most historically-accurate religion and the only explicitly anarchist faith. It pains me to see how many leftists still believe Islam ought to be the global liberation theology, and that leftists should throw out Western thought (including DiaMat) in favour of Islamic epistemology. So much of Islam begs the question and is not at all what the left should be embracing in terms of a theological worldview.
So as a Catholic anarchist in the tradition of Peter Maurin and Dorothy Day, I have sone questions for Muslims:
- Muslims claim the Bible is corrupted. So WHO did the corrupting and WHY was it corrupted? The argument I hear the most often is that Jewish and Catholic priests corrupted the Bible in order to reinforce their hierarchical power, but no one can point to when this happened or how they did it. Also, Jewish priests had no political power at that time and the Church was always counter to the state, so why would they need to “corrupt” Scripture to promote hierarchy?
- In the same vein, why does Islam place so much emphasis on the state when Jesus established the Church specifically to abolish the state? Islam demands a worldwide Caliphate with a very stringent political hierarchy. Why would that be needed if Christ’s Church is anti-statist?
- Also, the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas, especially on his doctrine of natural rights, is 100% anti-state and anti-hierarchy. Thomism is arguably the backbone of anarchist thought. It even attacks private property. Why does Islam have zero equivalent?
- Catholics have historically had the most anarchist results due to Catholic Social Teaching emphasizing the inherit dignity of all people. If Islam is true, why does Islam only result in authoritarianism?
(HOW IS LEFTYPOL THE VOICE OF ISLAM)>my sky daddy is more anarchist than your sky daddy
>on the basis Catholicism was the most historically-accurate religion and the only explicitly anarchist faith
The Church is structured as an absolute monarchy. How is that anarchist? Surely something like the Quakers would be much closer.
>>2840325The Church’s leadership is purely symbolic, not political.
>the first quran was written 42 years after the death of mohammed
>the three men (caliphs) mohammed trusted most with reciting the quran scattered to three different regions of arabia to preach it
>they decided they should get a written copy because remembering the proper recital was becoming difficult
>each caliph transcribes different copies of the quran
>each accuses the other of corrupting the quran
>islam nearly goes into civil war
>a random guy called Uthman claims he has the correct recital
>how or why he has this is not explained
>he convinces the caliphs (the men who mohammed trust most) to burn their copies
>they do lol
>uthman literally writes his own quran
>uthman and the caliphs have ALL other surviving copies of the quran burned
>including the past works of the caliphs themselves
>the only quran left is the one written by Uthman
>Uthman is now the sole author of islam and was buried in a Jewish cemetery
>>2840309No one actually believes Islam is socialist. It’s more that Muslims need socialism more than ever given how horrifically oppressed they currently are. We witnessed a genocide of 100,000 Muslim Palestinians in real time.
>>2840325Quakers are way better than Muslims and we should make an effort to convert Muslims to Quakerism.
>>2840334Yes but wouldn't an anarchist faith be non-hierarchical in terms of spiritual authority? How is the extremely hierarchical and rigid structure of the Catholic Church better than communities of believers and lay-clergy?
>>2840341Because a secular entity can then easily control them.
"Community of believers" are hotbed of reactionaries
>>2840341Thomism is anarchist and anti-hierarchy. And the pope is merely a symbolic leader whose role is COUNTER to the political state. Learn Church history.
>>2840347This too.
If the left was smart they would embrace Thomism.
>>2840309No gods no masters except Christ
>>2840339Bullshit. Quakerism is idealist nonsense. Islam came as revelation to unite the Arab tribes and fight back against the oppression they were facing. Quakerism was something one man in the 17th century made up out of whole cloth that has no historical basis. Islam has been the ideological backbone of multiple revolutions including the Haitian Revolution and Algerian Revolution and also the current Palestinian resistance. What anti-colonial revolutions has Quakerism waged?
Forgot to mention that Christ came to abolish the oppressiveness of Mosaic Law whereas Islam largely reinforces said law. Why?
>>2840391>Islam is anti-colonialYou literally ran one of the largest colonial empires in world history.
>>2840347>"Community of believers" are hotbed of reactionariesHistorically speaking the opposite is true. Quakers have typically been way ahead of the curve on issues like slavery, anti-imperialism, and civil rights.
>>2840397Why Quakerism and not Islam?
>>2840396False. Indigenous populations asked Muslims to rule over them to drive out their old oppressors. There’s a reason it’s called the Muslim conquests rather than invasions.
>>2840397If Quakerism is the ”true Christianity” why don’t we see any Quakers in Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Armenia, Egypt, Ethiopia, or Greece? Why is there no historic documentation of any form of early Christianity resembling Quakerism?
>”oh b-b-but muh Book of Acts!”Ever consider George Fox cherry-picked the Book of Acts to create a new (false) denomination the same way Mormons and JWs cherry-pick various verses in the Bible to give legitimacy to their heresies?
>>2840406Quakers follow the teachings of Paul too.
>>2840409Yeah sure they do because their founders were raised in a post Paul Christian Europe. Doesn't mean Paul wasn't wrong and extremely hated by the early monotheistic christians. (His view only won out because it wasn't even slightly challenging to Roman hegemony hence the romans ended up backing it).
If there's any truth in quakerism and I believe there is (it's literally just them meditating and deciding to be nice). It's in spite of Paul not because of Paul.
>>2840406And what historical evidence is there that Paul single-handedly rewrote the Bible to make the Bible look less like Islam?
Also, Christians do not hold the Bible the same way Muslims hold the Quran. The Bible was always a liturgical document, not something upheld to the same level as God.
>>2840413Yeah Quakerism isn’t materialist and is basically a set of secular ethics no different from Kant. Which is exactly why Quakers barely exist in 2026 and have no relevance in any Christian circle.
>>2840414Quite a lot actually.
https://shulchanaruchharav.com/article/who-was-paul-and-peterTo this day in the know rabbis celebrate that Paul , who was persecuting the christian messianics who were at the time just Jews who wanted reform and believed Jesus was the messiah (no weird Greek pagan copy pasted god man shit) was able to infiltrate their sect and stop it in its tracks. By making it a pagan religion, meaning the Pharisee Jews won over the sect lead by James. The Pharisee Jews didn't want a revolution like the sadducees against the Romans and were willing to play ball. Romans are happy because the problem Jewish sect become just Roman religion with Jesus instead of Jove. Jewish scholars are happy because they get to prevent the reforms of the unhappy Jews (reforms like actually spreading the torah to all nations, not being obsessed with a temple and more what the temple symbolized which is something Jesus spoke of).
>>2840419I’m not giving a Zionist website clicks.
>>2840414Most of the New testament can't be considered holy because everyone knows it was written years after the events with a broken chain of narration and the gospel authors being totally different dudes to their names. There's no system of narration grading like in Islam. The Trinity wasn't even decided as a key thing until a council like 200 years after Jesus.
>>2840420Fine I'll summaries it for you. The Jewish rabbis have a literal day where they commerate Paul and the first pope Peter as tzadik ie super holy dudes yearly.
They literally believe they were holy ones who went undercover to make sure Jesus sect went astray so that it couldn't corrupt Judaism. Ie the whole larp that Christianity is anti the pharisees is patantly false.
>>2840418I have i grew up catholic.
Catholicisme just simply does not change people for the most part. It's mostly asthetics and at best inspires some charity work or imitating Jesus. But in terms of actually changing people's conduct via a consistent prayer routine for lay people, instruction on how to go within. It doesn't do that. The whole point of the faith is the gentile goes to the room with shiny gold once a week, pays another man to do the ritual for him, eats the symbolic biscuit then returns to his ways. The guilt confessional cycle is about feeling bad, atoning. In sharia you don't feel bad you just slowly alter your behaviour over time and actually live non retardedly.
>>2840429And why do Catholics have a much better track record of liberating humanity compared to every other religion?
It's like 1 + 1 tier stuff. Obviously going to a community centre once a week forms bonds form trust and trade guilds. Obviously being drunk is not beneficial. Obviously repeating the name of an aspect of God you wish to invoke makes your brain better at behaving with that trait or seeking it out. We can have mantras without needing to personify these traits as separate gods and start tribal conflicts about it.
>>2840430I'd argue they didn't at all. They had more radicals who accomplished nothing on the fringes but Islamic Andalusia as an actual multicultural, more profitable trade hub that looked after its people with safety nets, education and actual plumbing in a time where most people didn't bathe mogs anything catholicism ever did.
>>2840430Take Che Guevara, that man took certain truths from the Jesuits who are considered by a lot of Catholics to be heretics sure. But he certainly wasn't a Latin mass trad posting on x all day about nfp sex was he.
>>2840433TradCaths are heretics who prioritize nationalism over Christ.
>>2840436I agree with you on that but I still also agree as Jesus would that your a gentile. Doing the best you can with a gentile faith. But if you really want to be like Jesus, be a monotheist. Eat, walk, talk and act like a monotheist. And you will see no end of improvements in your quality of life.
Islam is literally just Judaism without ethnic gatekeeping and shabbat obsession. It's literally word for word exactly what Jesus taught.
I think the biggest nail in the coffin is simply that Jesus never implemented or took a Eucharist or did the sign of the cross. His brother james prayed like a Muslim on his knees, like Jesus is said to have in the Bible and as Abraham did. As the non rabbinic Jews karaites today still do just like Muslims and sabians.
>>2840406Can you explain how Paul being a dick de facto makes Islam true?
>>2840419This doesn't make Islam anarchist.
>>2840439>Islam is literally just Judaism without ethnic gatekeeping and shabbat obsession. It's literally word for word exactly what Jesus taught.Prove it with historical documentation.
>sincerely believing either Christianity or Islam is "anti-state"
This, my friend, is proof of why leftists should never embrace religion: you get caught up in theology wars and end up needing to exclude large numbers of people from your movement for having the "wrong" theology.
>>2840443Why does Jesus explicitly preach against the state when Muhammad established a state?
>prayed like a Muslim on his knees, What does this have to do with Islam being anarchist?
>>2840577It's not about which religion is "right" but about which one furthers the goals of the left. So far, Christianity is miles ahead of any other faith (including Islam) in doing this.
All religions will be raped and gaped in the communist revolution.
China is 93% atheist btw. Your religion VVILL be raped.
>>2840581China is one of the most Christian nations on earth. Try again.
>>2840439>>2840443If Christ came to abolish the oppressiveness of the law, why would Muhammad re-institute it? Why do I need to prove my "worth" to God by not eating pork (I don't care about the health reasons, I'm speaking theology) or travelling to Mecca?
>>2840419>believing the JewsAnon….
(Reactionary) >After the communist revolution of 1959, the Cuban government restricted religious practice. Religious people were not allowed to join the Cuban Communist Party due to religion being contradictory to the party's Marxist philosophy. In August 1960, several bishops signed a joint pastoral letter condemning communism and declaring it incompatible with Catholicism, and calling on Catholics to reject it.
>Castro gave a four-hour speech the next day, condemning priests who serve "great wealth" and using fears of Falangist influence to attack Spanish-born priests, declaring "There is no doubt that Franco has a sizeable group of fascist priests in Cuba and that imperialism, through its falangist and fascist influence with Franco, has been ceaselessly moving its pawns to try to bring the revolution into a conflict."
>From 1959 to 1961, 80% of the professional Christian priests and ministers of the Cuban churches left Cuba for the United States. The property of the clergy was also nationalized.
Now tell me why you think you're smarter than Fidel Castro and think religion shouldn't be suppressed?
>>2840582We are reaching levels of copium never seen before….
If you're an anarchist why would you want to worship a celestial tyrant? At least you can escape earthly tyrannies by dying. Not here.
the one true god told me you're all wrong
>>2840597Because there actually is a long tradition of anti-statism and anti-capitalism in Catholicism that you don't see in other religions.
Just wanted to clear something up ITT: there actually is a very logical reason for why you would have a centralized religious institution like the Catholic Church over a religion where every preacher and scholar sees themselves as their own pope like in Islam.
I was never Muslim myself, but for a time in my life I was very close to numerous people in my city's Muslim community. They invited me over for iftar dinner and we went to the same Palestine protests and such so I know Islam quite well. The problem is, Islam has a gigantic "scholars-for-dollars" problem. Most Islamic institutions and organizations rely on donations from wealthy Muslims (like Arab oil barons for instance) so Muslim scholars are highly reluctant to criticize capitalism itself. They will criticize the West, Zionism, liberalism, feminism, Marxism, and every other "-ism" and will be very harsh in criticizing usury, but they will never, ever criticize capitalism for what it is. They don't want their rich Muslim donors to cut them off. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Qatar (which all donate huge sums of money to Muslim institutions all over the world) are fully capitalist with extreme repression towards working people (who are almost all migrants) in those countries.
The Catholic Church may be corrupt in its own ways, sure, but because the Church is centralized it doesn't have to rely on pandering to rich people in order to preserve itself. The pope can denounce capitalism all he wants and not have to worry about losing his status. Also, it's A LOT harder for the Church to make up theology on a whim since it has so many layers to its hierarchy. Muslim scholars will often times emphasize certain Hadith or downplay certain Hadith depending on the circumstance. Like a Hadith about not allying with imperfect allies will be deemed sahih (authentic) when it's good for some Muslims fighting a war somewhere and then declared weak when it's not good for Muslims fighting a war somewhere. Islam leads to so much confusion on a theological level, and a lot of Muslim missionaries (like the Discordian guy ITT) are disingenuous for claiming Islam is "just" the Qu'ran or "just" Judaism without the tribalism when Islam is actually volumes upon volumes of Hadith that only a Muslim scholar can "properly" interpret.
>>2840413>Doesn't mean Paul wasn't wrong and extremely hated by the early monotheistic christians. Do you have proof of this?
>>2840406None of these answers except maybe the first one address what OP is asking.
You're basically pulling a "I don't have to outrun the bear, I only have to outrun you" cope.
>>2840719
Not a fan and irrelevant to my argument.
The Catholic Church is a reactionary cult which should be aggressively wiped out with the absolute maximum possible amount of prejudice. Your entire cult is a.front for the CIAs operation GLADIO and is explicitly anti-communist in nature. Entire papacies have been orchestrated by the CIA who uses the Vatican as both an engine of temporal and spiritual power. All of the CIAs black funds go through Banco Ambrosiano, your fascist cult is behind every death squad of the 20th century.
>>2840730The last two popes were overt socialists (Francis and now Leo the 16th).
>>2840738Pope knows capitalism is outmoded and he's trying to get along with the future so the Catholic Church will survive. Clever tbh
>>2840741His arguments against capitalism are explicitly moral.
>>2840730Bergolio was literally a CIA asset who snitched out Liberation Theologians to the government. Even if he wasn't, he's still a liar and a grifter and should be shot and all his property appropriated.
>>2840741>>2840754The only people saying "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SOCIALIST" are Americans. American Catholics have historically been economically progressive because the bulk of them came over as poor migrants from Ireland, Quebec, Italy, Poland, etc. and now Mexico and many other places in LatAm. They participated in the labour movement which won them a higher standard of living. But in Catholic-majority countries radical leftists are very critical of the Church's power and influence. There's a reason why the Spanish anarchists burned churches and killed clergy.
It's also worthy to note that the reason why the last two popes have been loved by American liberals is because American liberals think the Church can be part of their wider anti-Trump alliance. They love the current pope because he's openly anti-Trump, so of course American Democrats will try to court him and see "hope" in Catholicism.
>>2840592>and using fears of Falangist influence to attack Spanish-born priestsCatsro was buddies with Franco tho lmao.
>>2840730>The Catholic Church is a reactionary cult which should be aggressively wiped out with the absolute maximum possible amount of prejudice. Your entire cult is a.front for the CIAs operation GLADIO and is explicitly anti-communist in nature.Same as Islam.
>>2840649I’ve always though that was weird, how Islam is supposedly a “pure monotheism” and the “original religion” of humanity when 90% of Islam’s theology isn’t in the Quran but comes from the Hadith. Like even the five pillars aren’t in the Quran. Meaning there is no Islam without copying Muhammad.
>>2840406Jesus said “My Kingdom is not if this world” and “render unto Caesar what are Caesar’s” indicating that God was now separate from the state. Muhammad, by contrast, personally established a state that ended up becoming a massive empire and did so in the name of God. How do you explain this?
>>2840589Saying you want Abraham religion without the law is like saying you want muscles without the gym. Looking at a gold flaked painting of someone praying multiple times a day and exercising discipline till they come to certain philosophical conclusions is not useful. That's why in Europe for most of history the Bible could not be translated for the povos, they might actually do things that lead to greater organisation in their community instead of relying on the state ran church's.
State run churches which are identical to the Saudi oil funded preachers you'll find on any university campus. Wahabis are a literal psyop to stop the more revolutionary and spiritual wing of Islam - Sufism. There's a hadith you can find where Muhammad PBUH warns a heretic will come from the exact town where the original wahabi scholar came from. Sufism in contrast is just the original full practice of Islam with mantras to inspire ego death and so on. Wahabism is all business focusing big time on proselytizing, glazing royals and internal debates about miniature in prayer.
>>2841474Dictatorship of the proletariat, with all the people organizing each themselves via mosques and having an elected leader. Ibn Khaldoon wrote explicitly about how wealth hoarded in property or sitting in a bank is anti thesis to Islamic economics where that is to be taxed and put into productive aspects to give all the regular folks jobs.
>>2840692Because this is stuff that if your not an anglophone, takes like two seconds to google. The first female universities were ran by Muslims, Islam prohibited alcohol just like Lenin wanted to for the exact same reasons.
Islam was the first religion to make the men pay dowry to the women instead of vice versa so that they have sufficient income in case of a divorce and can enter the workforce or remarry. Islam was the first religion to outright name racism a sin and not in a convulated good Samaritan story way, in a very blunt the devil was the first racist way and the first man to call the Islamic prayer in mecca was an African man.
>>2840666Plenty I could spam this thread if I wanted to. First read the epistle to Galatians where Paul admits to beefing with Peter. The scuffle with the Jerusalem church and him being salty about it in acts and Phillipines crying about super apostles ie guys who disliked him.
There's his whole tiff with the Ebionites.
He wasn't even up front about what he was doing, in Acts hes portrayed as straight up lying to Jesus brother James saying no I'm not telling people to abandon the law. Even while abandoning the law he still gets the nazarite vow (no sex no wine shaving your head) prob because the rabbis daughter had rejected him and he needed to play off being an incel as religious.
>>2841725So you’re okay with stoning women to death for adultery?
>>2841727None of these things make Islam more anarchist or even leftist than Christianity. Jesus came to abolish the state whereas Muhammad established a state. Jesus never wanted to make His Church a state but a counter institution to the state.
>>2840391>Islam has been the ideological backbone of multiple revolutions including the Haitian RevolutionWhat? Proof? Haiti is Catholic and Voodoo, not Muslim.
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