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File: 1781565575742.jpeg (246.6 KB, 1423x860, IMG_0546.jpeg)

 

Borders are an archaic and barbaric concept. No human is illegal unless they’ve committed a crime. A REAL crime. Not just the crime of being from Mexico. Our immigration systems are purposefully undermined, underfunded, and extremely limited in the amount of people they let in to the point of functional impossibility.

Lynch ICE in the street.
128 posts and 11 image replies omitted.

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>>2875217
you think the reserve army of labor = unemployment/underemployment. This is the equivalent of not understanding gravity in a physics class

>>2875233
Shut up liberal

>>2875234
you're so mad lmao

>>2875233
>>2875235
You have been debateraped by a Marxist and now you're back to racist feels? There's a solution for that, put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger, (it will increase the wages for the rest of us)

>>2875243
debateraped by a guy who thinks the reserve army of labor = unemployment/underemployment

ahahahahaha

>>2875245
Debateraped so hard you can't stop replying

>>2875232
for the practical purpose of our discussion, as regards a modern economy, that is so. it is equivalent to saying that g = 10 m/s^2 in an engineering class.

>>2875245
wrong person + you're now on 3 posts of going "haha you don't know what the reserve army of labour is (and i'm not going to facilitate discussion by giving my definition :^))) )" as though you think anyone reading is naive enough to fall for your sophistry.

>>2875246
maybe he just wants to build up the reserve army of (you)s.

>>2875246
you are my reply guy

>>2875248
>for the practical purpose of our discussion, as regards a modern economy, that is so. it is equivalent to saying that g = 10 m/s^2 in an engineering class.
now you're just trying to save face.
>wrong person + you're now on 3 posts of going "haha you don't know what the reserve army of labour is (and i'm not going to facilitate discussion by giving my definition :^))) )" as though you think anyone reading is naive enough to fall for your sophistry.
quite pathetic to not understand reserve army of labour

>>2875252
Humiliation ritual

>>2875256
i guess you're pretty humiliated aren't you

>>2875207
>ok prove it, all you're doing is crying that Marx doesn't support mass migration.
I just proved that Marx did not advocate for repressing Irish immigrants; people who oppose mass immigration—like you—interpret that stance as supporting mass immigration. You are the one who needs to prove where—and in which program throughout his life—Marx advocated cutting off or preventing immigration by empowering the bourgeois state to repress immigrants. So far, you haven't cited anything; you simply focus on the text where Marx describes the English worker's mistaken view of the Irish immigrant as a hostile competitor. In that same text, Marx writes that by opposing the Irish immigrant worker, the English worker becomes a tool of the English bourgeoisie and aristocracy, thereby strengthening the ruling classes against the English workers themselves.

If Marx wrote nothing demanding the repression of immigrants, then the bourgeoisie will bring in and incentivize immigrant workers, and coerce them. If you argue that this must be stopped—or that it constitutes an "emergency" justifying state power to repress and deport immigrants—then that is the conclusion you reach. However, Marx clearly sided with Irish workers in his texts. If you claim this means opposing English workers, it is only because you believe the lie that views immigrant workers as enemies; it is solely due to your own prejudices that you perceive Marx as supporting mass immigration.

Marx places no importance on what is shared with—or merely feigned to be shared with—the ruling classes. He clearly sides with the Irish worker against the English aristocracy and bourgeoisie, and he advocated for English workers to adopt this same position without ever supporting any anti-immigrant laws.

>then you're just changing the subject because we're discussing the system of immigration not the immigrants themselves.


Marx clearly wrote that English workers can do nothing other than grant Irish workers the right to liberate themselves from their own subjugation by English capitalists and aristocrats. This puts an end to any discussion about an immigration system; in his writings, Marx himself advocates for abolishing employment certificates in France. Therefore, Marx would oppose any immigration system you could imagine, since he refuses to grant the bourgeois state any power of repression whatsoever.

>already did initially you were confused over the prescription/description nature of the letters.

Wrong again. You are confusing the text where Marx writes the following:
"The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland."
Here, he is literally stating that the English worker who views the Irish immigrant worker as a competitor lowering his standard of living is mistaken; in doing so, he becomes—as the text says—"becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself". The Irish worker then—as the text says—The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland."

Marx clearly views you as a "stupid tool" of the bourgeoisie.

>again what is being discussed is the policy of mass migration not who and who not to organize.

And the position, as Marx states, is that English workers have no political recourse within England other than to defend these exploited workers of other nationalities. This runs counter to any immigration system you might wish to propose.

>other then the laws that preventing immigration in the USSR. Both Marx, Engels and Lenin did not support any law to encourage mass immigration of workers either.

Show proof of these laws. You haven't shown anything. Organizing a socialist state and planning its resources is not the same as how to organize within a bourgeois state; the communist position is one of solidarity with workers worldwide for the emancipation of all workers. You didn't provide a single quote, so I am right and you are wrong—as always, the liberal resentful of immigrant workers has no source to cite.

>>2875307
>I just proved that Marx did not advocate for repressing Irish immigrants
again you're trying to change the topic from the system of immigration to the individual immigrants themselves. What Marx says about the Irish immigrants has nothing to do with the system of immigration, which Marx clearly states is used against the proletariat.
>Marx clearly wrote that English workers can do nothing other than grant Irish workers the right to liberate themselves from their own subjugation by English capitalists and aristocrats
and somehow in your liberal mind this translate to mass immigration, something Marx never suggested.
>Marx clearly views you as a "stupid tool" of the bourgeoisie.
this would be you for supporting the lowered standard of life through immigration.
>And the position, as Marx states, is that English workers have no political recourse within England other than to defend these exploited workers of other nationalities. This runs counter to any immigration system you might wish to propose.
again no where is this a support of mass migration, you're once again reading liberalism into Marx.(USER ALREADY BANNED)

>>2875316
You just keep pretending like the argument is about "mass migration" when really what you've been advocating for all along is the idea that foreign born workers are the enemy of native born workers which has been repeatedly debunked.

You're nothing but a racist reactionary.

>>2875319
i guess you've given up

>>2875322
Strawman 0 - 1 (you)

What do my fellow Comrades think about my In-Depth Dialectical Materialist Marxist-Leninist-Maoist line on the Global Migration Crisis at >>2871452 , ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🚀☢️💇‍♀️👩‍🦲🤔?

>>2875323
your concession is accepted

>>2875316
>>2875322
Are you really naive enough to think anyone in the thread is falling for this? For all your bluster it's obvious to anyone reading that you've been routed and run out of arguments. While the people you're arguing with keep presenting new ideas, illustrating their points in new ways, and engaging you on the rare new points you raise, you keep falling back to the same cliches without actually engaging with their arguments at all.

Even if we granted you a blank cheque and said that Marx was indeed anti-immigration, you've never made a convincing argument relating to the facts on the ground. e.g. you've never demonstrated that Marx was correct, or that Marx continues to be correct in modern circumstances. You rely on the reader taking this as read, but your posts are otherwise so lazy and repetitive that they can only undermine this case.
If Marx was anti-immigration, and if he was correct to be so, and if his reasoning continues to be correct today, it would be trivial to illustrate this with real world examples. The absence of such examples paired with a lot of insults, namedropping, and accusations of not understanding Marx without any attempt to explain him "correctly", only serves to make clear that you cannot actually make your case, that you are more likely than not starting with a conclusion and lazily, desperately, working backwards from it.

If not naivite, why are you bothering? Is copy-and-pasting "You're reading your liberalism into Marx" over and over again actually entertaining you? If you're not going to engage in good faith, do you not at the very least feel some compulsion to say something new? Or, if repetition is your game, why not embrace it fully with the pretended confidence of a 1:1 copy and paste: "ok kid", "ok kid", "ok kid"

If you're trying to drag it out until you get the last word, you should cut your losses now.

>>2875335
you write a lot but say very little and have made no argument at all beyond complaining that Marx might be actually against immigration.
Do you have an argument or are you just going to read liberalism into Marx?

>>2875405
My argument is as follows: At no level have you made your case, nor are you going to make your case in the future. This conversation is nothing but an exercise in amusing casual readers of the thread by calling you out for desperately trying to get the last word after being hopelessly outclassed, as though that would constitute a "win".

You evidently struggle with reading comprehension when it comes to my post, which makes it hard to imagine you've read Marx and harder still to imagine you've actually understood him. At no point did I "complain" that Marx might be against immigration, indeed I granted it for argument's sake to illustrate just how little of a case you've made. "What Marx said" is at-best a starting point for an analysis, not something you can offer up in lieu of one. (That you've also failed to make a convincing case that this is what Marx said, while others have made the opposing case far more forcefully, is just the icing on the cake.)

Your best option at this juncture is to reply "I accept your concession" and then run away so I have nothing to work with and you possibly wind up with the last word by default, but I do not expect you to take it. Your worst option is to shoehorn in the phrase "read[ing] liberalism into Marx" again, unless you're confident you can do it 3-4 more times without adding anything else so that the whole thing takes on a surrealist quality.

>>2875411
>At no level have you made your case
that isn't an argument. You're just upset at this point. Are you the same person who didn't understand what the reserve army of labor was?

>>2875437
It obviously is an argument, an argument I have established a strong case for, and an argument you have failed to rebut. I have no reason to be upset: the shorter your replies, the more obvious the paucity of your case, especially when you do something silly like dedicate more than half of their length to baseless accusations.

>>2875526
no you're again just throwing a tantrum, do you have a counter point to anything thats being said or are you just going to continue to whine about the subject?

>>2875316
>again no where is this a support of mass migration, you're once again reading liberalism into Marx.
Wrong again. In the text, it is the combination of landlord control in Ireland and capitalist exploitation without defending Irish workers, with English workers not organizing with Irish workers, that strengthens the bourgeoisie to intensify exploitation.

>and somehow in your liberal mind this translate to mass immigration, something Marx never suggested.

No. That's what it means in your mind. I don't care about that; my interest is in defending the labor and civil rights of all workers because that's the only way you make it harder for capitalists to profit, which intensifies the class struggle and builds solidarity to prepare for the revolutionary situation, in addition to defending equal wages for all workers so they can fight together, as is the duty of communists to do.

>this would be you for supporting the lowered standard of life through immigration

Wrong. In Marx's text, the English worker seeing the Irish worker as an enemy, thus diminishing his living conditions, is not considered correct by Marx. As in the text itself, the English worker "regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself." The very prejudices against the immigrant worker are what lower the standard of living because he is not organizing with the Irish workers. Have you forgotten what Marx wrote about how the worker sees the prejudiced worker who sees the immigrant as an enemy?

Here we will see the passage that describes you very well:

<The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.


<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New York


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Funny how in this text he calls you a stupid tool, denying that he's on your side.

The English worker, who is the stupid tool like you are here, is not correct according to Marx here. So you are wrong.

>again no where is this a support of mass migration, you're once again reading liberalism into Marx.

You haven't yet proven Marx was against mass immigration. You're the one who has to show the proof. In the text discussing lowering the standard of living, Marx calls anyone who sees this a "stupid tool." In other texts discussing this issue, Marx says that he has nothing to do in England except side with the Irish workers and give them legal support, even though he would prefer to go against the English workers who identify with their nation, siding with the Irish instead of any national reconciliation in England against the Irish.

>>2876458
>with English workers not organizing with Irish workers, that strengthens the bourgeoisie to intensify exploitation.
funny how that isn't anywhere in the letter

>No. That's what it means in your mind. I don't care about that; my interest is in defending the labor and civil rights of all workers because that's the only way you make it harder for capitalists to profit, which intensifies the class struggle and builds solidarity to prepare for the revolutionary situation, in addition to defending equal wages for all workers so they can fight together, as is the duty of communists to do.

ok well you're ignoring Marxism in favor of your mass migration golden calf for some reason.

>the English worker seeing the Irish worker as an enemy, thus diminishing his living conditions

I don't think you can read English well, the letter clearly states that the English workers hate the Irish immigration for lowering the standard of living not that their opposition to the Irish worker lowers the standard of living.

you're just worshipping immigration for some reason

>You haven't yet proven Marx was against mass immigration

where did I say that? What was stated was that mass immigration is a tool used by the ruling class to suppress wages, which is stated by Marx

>>2876473
>funny how that isn't anywhere in the letter
Funny how it is actually in the letter:
<The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker.

<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New York


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Here again, you can see that the English worker becomes a tool of English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, strengthening those classes' domination over himself. Just as you are merely strengthening capitalists and aristocrats abroad—and their domination over *you*—do you realize that the text describes how the English worker *perceives* the situation, rather than how it actually is?

Immediately after this, Marx presents the Irish worker's perspective:

<The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.


<Letters of Karl Marx 1870, Marx to Sigfrid Meyer and August Vogt In New York


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm

Why, then, are you ignoring this part, which shows that the Irishman views people like you as an accomplice and a stupid tool of the rulers? In the text itself, the Irishman is paying him back with interest, while you invent the idea that the immigrant is the problem, instead of fighting for these workers' rights.

>ok well you're ignoring Marxism in favor of your mass migration golden calf for some reason.

You who are ignoring Marx who doesn't care about this, in the Manifesto he even writes that communism will accelerate what you fear:

<National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisie, to freedom of commerce, to the world market, to uniformity in the mode of production and in the conditions of life corresponding thereto.


<The supremacy of the proletariat will cause them to vanish still faster. United action, of the leading civilised countries at least, is one of the first conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat.


<Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels ,1848 Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

This does not change what Engels wrote that Marx never demonstrated his opposition to:

<22. What will be the attitude of communism to existing nationalities?


<The nationalities of the peoples associating themselves in accordance with the principle of community will be compelled to mingle with each other as a result of this association and thereby to dissolve themselves, just as the various estate and class distinctions must disappear through the abolition of their basis, private property.


<Frederick Engels 1847, The Principles of Communism


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

So you are saying that Marx and Engels are wrong? Or are you going to invent that Marx is secretly against Engels without any proof?

<I have become more and more convinced—and it is only a question of driving this conviction home to the English working class — that it can never do anything decisive here in England until it separates its policy with regard to Ireland most definitely from the policy of the ruling classes, until it not only makes common cause with the Irish but even takes the initiative in dissolving the Union established in 1801 and replacing it by a free federal relationship. And this must be done, not as a matter of sympathy with Ireland but as a demand made in the interests of the English proletariat. If not, the English people will remain tied to the leading-strings of the ruling classes, because it will have to join with them in a common front against Ireland.


<Letters of Karl Marx 1869, Marx to Ludwig Kugelmann In Hanover


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1869/letters/69_11_29-abs.htm

Once again, Marx disagrees with you; how can he speak of the English worker making common cause with the Irishman if that Irishman is the enemy?

>I don't think you can read English well, the letter clearly states that the English workers hate the Irish immigration for lowering the standard of living not that their opposition to the Irish worker lowers the standard of living.

>you're just worshipping immigration for some reason
Wrong again. How can Marx write that the English worker "regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself" if that's what you want? According to this, you are the tool of the aristocrats and capitalists. Here, the Irish worker "sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland."

You didn't say what this means because it describes you as an accomplice and the "stupid tool" of the rulers and the tool of the aristocrats and capitalists. In this passage, Marx describes what you are being now.

Right to movement is a neoliberal 'right'. I.e, a neoliberal structural necessity.
Under socialism, labour has no right to desert camp spontaneously and thus intentionally, willingly wreck the 5-year plan.

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>>2876734
Nationalist retard lmao

human mobility has massively increased over time concurrent with technological development. the idea this tendency will suddenly be thrown into reverse under socialism is idiotic. a planning mechanism that cannot get people to choose to live in the necessary locations is by-definition a planning system that has failed and a society that will condemn people born in rural backwaters to remain there because it cannot and will not accommodate their desire to live in civilisation is a doomed society.
>b-but muh chinese internal movement restrictions
china's urbanisation rate has grown massively since the 1970s and the hukou system has gotten much weaker over time. direction of travel matters much more than absolute position. (e.g. internal movement in china is easier than ever, even if movement in china is more restrictive than in the west.)

>>2876762
neoliberal hippy woo ha yahoo retard

File: 1784984064790-1.jpg (8.34 KB, 310x200, OSK.jpg)

Let's ask the neoliberal queen what she thinks of open borders

>In 1968 Enoch Powell delivered his "Rivers of Blood" speech in which he strongly criticised Commonwealth immigration to the United Kingdom and the then-proposed Race Relations Bill. When Heath telephoned Thatcher to inform her that he would sack Powell from the Shadow Cabinet, she recalled that she "really thought that it was better to let things cool down for the present rather than heighten the crisis". She believed that his main points about Commonwealth immigration were correct and that the selected quotations from his speech had been taken out of context. In a 1991 interview for Today, Thatcher stated that she thought Powell had "made a valid argument, if in sometimes regrettable terms".


>In a July 1979 meeting with Foreign Secretary Lord Carrington and Home Secretary William Whitelaw, Thatcher objected to the number of Asian immigrants, in the context of limiting the total of Vietnamese boat people allowed to settle in the UK to fewer than 10,000 over two years.


>Thatcher's stance on immigration in the late 1970s was perceived as part of a rising racist public discourse, which Martin Barker terms "new racism". In opposition, Thatcher believed that the National Front (NF) was winning over large numbers of Conservative voters with warnings against floods of immigrants. Her strategy was to undermine the NF narrative by acknowledging that many of their voters had serious concerns in need of addressing. In 1978 she criticised Labour's immigration policy to attract voters away from the NF to the Conservatives. Her rhetoric was followed by increased Conservative support at the expense of the NF. Critics on the left accused her of pandering to racism.

>>2876772
>hippy
Naionalist beasts feed on blood


Are white people allowed to migrate to poc majority countries and form large white enclaves in the city or would that be colonialism? Asking for a friend :)

>>2876786
False premise that people from Asia and Africa came willingly to Europe and weren't forcibly settled here by their colonial suzerain after Hitler almost wiped out all whites. Dutch brought Moroccan and Indonesian, French brought West African, Germans got Turkish labor power, and so on.

>>2876786
Yeah the sexpats and military people come to many african countries and make fortified cracker neighborhoods actually

>neoliberalism proven to support closed borders and racial discrimination policies
>anti immigration crowds immediately shifts to heil hitler rapejeet mudhuts
scratch a (neo)liberal…

>>2876816
yeah, you're worse.

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>>2876820

>>2876824
You will never even be one hundredth the man Yahyah Sinwar was

>>2876831
Yahyah Sinwar stood for equal rights and justice, it’s Netanyahu and the Israelis that love hitler

Where did the "neoliberals love open borders" meme came from? Neolibs love armed borders that function as human traficking hubs for collecting non-citizen slaves.

>>2876840
neoliberal theory would endorse open borders, but actually existing neoliberalism is a different beast and enjoys the current persecutory nativist pandering of national borders.
if i am quite honest, i sympathise with a lot of neoliberal theory and regard it as having been failed by its practitioners.
e.g. much of the material base of Trumpism is people in regulated industries like car dealerships, soda bottling plant owners, etc, which should be deregulated and opened to market competition, but - as neoliberal public choice theory would predict - these people can lobby politicians to leave them alone while the beneficiaries of a more competitive car dealership/soda market cannot lobby you because they do not exist yet and consumer interests are too diffuse to lobby for it. Meanwhile, something like airline deregulation has succeeded at basically all of its original aims, and trade is - despite all the whining - basically a universal good. Actually-existing neoliberals compromised on all of these, e.g. Reagan and Thatcher also indulged a large degree of protectionism, Blair and Clinton pandered to all kinds of reactionary sentiments, and basically all of them got more worked up about tax cuts + fiscal rectitude than deregulation+trade, which are the actually valuable parts of the theory. Many modern problems could've been resolved or avoided if we had more neoliberalism-in-theory and less neoliberalism-as-actually-implemented.

this is of course the tragedy of all ideas. actually existing Keynesianism and "AES" were the same, a bastard form ultimately doomed to collapse by their own compromises. Not for nothing is China effectively a coherent synthesis of AES and AE-Neoliberalism.

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>>2876840
>Where did the "neoliberals love open borders" meme came from? Neolibs love armed borders that function as human traficking hubs for collecting non-citizen slaves.
underrated trvke

>>2876547
>do you realize that the text describes how the English worker *perceives* the situation, rather than how it actually is?
he stopped replying because he realized you were right but was too proud to admit it

>>2876547
>Here again, you can see that the English worker becomes a tool of English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, strengthening those classes' domination over himself. Just as you are merely strengthening capitalists and aristocrats abroad—and their domination over *you*—do you realize that the text describes how the English worker *perceives* the situation, rather than how it actually is?
sure but Marx is also stating that immigrants lowers the standard of living.

>>2877374
samefag


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