/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

I wouldn’t say nearly all communists nor would I compare black nationalism to the ultranationalism of the Nazis.

That said the answer to your question is Sorel’s conception of social myth and perhaps nationalism being a logical extension of tribal impulses that start with the clan/village and extend outwards.

You really think some random brown is gonna have solidarity for some random African is gonna have solidarity with some random European? People hate on each other for having a slightly different dialect or subscribing to a slightly different interpretation of the same god. I’m sorry but international proletarian revolution is never coming.(Chudposting)

>>2843805
There is a difference between nationalism and basic in group preference.

People generally just prefer others who are similar to them then those who are not

National liberation ≠ nationalism

>>2843817
Thats just something ml's made up to cope with being liberals enforcing idpol

>>2843794
A lot of effort went into building nationalism. If you want people to believe in something called internationalism you'd have to build similar institutions where people can actually live and benefit from it.

>>2843794
I think it’s because we haven’t yet made flying a swastika punishable by death.

>>2843794
Not necessarily nationalism as much as patriotism, which I think taps into an innate tribal instinct in humanity. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be nationalism, as seen by how tribal fandoms can be, and those are based on consumer items, as well as the fact in pre-modern history where nations didn’t really exist religion and place of birth and familial lineage often took precedence for people’s identities. Now, tradcons may say nationalism is somehow more “rooted”, but I beg to differ as nationalism can be thought of as a fandom in and of itself or a proto-fandom of sorts because there’s no country with unbroken heritage between past and present. Not India, nor Sumeria, Babylon, the Roman Empire, any number of post-Alexandrine Hellenistic states, the Hand dynasty, the Inca empire, or even the Frankish empire.

So in this sense, the mythos of the nation-state can be deemed as a fictional product made by elites from which a fandom is formed, and modern Macedonia is a case study. Many dismiss it as fake despite the conception of Macedonia dating back to the 19th century. By those same standards, one can dismiss ANY nation-state as “fake” insofar that they’re invented by somebody as opposed to being some organic product.

As for a multiracial proletarian revolution, while a common cultural background is needed, I think history has shown that more than race and ethnicity what trumps it all is a common and shared national experience and a mythos on which to base it. For Cuba, it was the Cuban revolution. For the USSR, it was WW2. For America, it is the civil war + civil rights revolution.

I think time will tell when that will happen for the world.

>>2843864
>taps into an innate tribal instinct in humanity
>>2843805
>Sorel’s conception of social myth
>>2843821
>something ml's made up to cope with being liberals enforcing idpol
How far we've fallen… please read.

I only dabble in it when someone calls my shithole a shithole

>>2843794
Nationalism is taught to people from childhood. Personal identity becomes linked with nationality. Imagining a world without countries/states is foreign for most people.

National symbols, anthem, flag, etc. only reinforce this idea. Japan is an example of a very successful nationalist campaign

>>2843812
The capitalist class, at least to an extent, have international, inter-religious, inter-ethnic solidarity as a class against the working class. Does that mean they never are divided along these lines? No. But when it comes to class struggle they are not divided in their will to crush the workers. As soon as the workers see this, the steps they need to take to beat the capitalists becomes evident.

>>2843794
>Why? Whats so special about it?
Nations are useful to protect private property. Even under global trade. So small capitalists love it.

>>2843812
Doesn't matter what random people anywhere think. Power is what matters.

>>2843794
I suppose much of the structure of the nation-state is prototyped in the structure of imperial colonies. A nation is a colony without a metropole. The frustrated colonial bureaucracy removed their overlords but kept much of the same underlying structure.

It's because of the patriarchy unironically, the feminists are right on this one.

the capitalist class have a stranglehold on the most powerful propaganda apparatus in the world though they wield inefficiently. even so, it is so enormous it drowns out and kills or subsumes any burgeoning class conscious community. through it they redirect class grievances which everyone feels into more base and vulgar struggles (national supremacy, ethnic supremacy).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness

>Some political analysts have focused on where people's understanding of their interests originates. In an essay entitled "False Consciousness", Michael Parenti challenges the assumption that working-class Americans freely define their interests but then choose, for various reasons, to think and act against those interests. Instead he writes that "the development of one's own interests and political consciousness in general may be stunted or distorted by misinformation, disinformation, and a narrow but highly visible mainstream political agenda that rules out feasible alternatives".[14] Parenti's contention is that ideological confusion is being propagated in the nation's politics and mass media and thereby causes people to misjudge what their real interests are.

>>2843986
>The capitalist class, at least to an extent, have international, inter-religious, inter-ethnic solidarity as a class against the working class
Imagine believing that lmao

>>2843794
there is a material basis to it. Which is shared language, culture, national mythos, and perceived identity, as well as having been long ruled by the same elites with the same laws. And a lot of effort went into it by these elites historically to solidify their rule.
It's also the obvious target basis for any large scale transformation of society, such as socialism

nationalism and cosmopolitanism are immanent to the capital mode of reproduction itself.

that does not mean that identification of an in-group by shared land, language, historical relations, etc. to the exclusion of others is unique to capitalist mode. it also does not mean that identification with people regardless of land, language, historical relations etc. is unique to capitalist mode. but the particular interchange & opposition between these concepts that we are familiar with only exists in the context of social reproduction relying on generalized reproduction of capital.

conceptually its somewhat like there were cultures that only worshipped a single god prior to monotheism, and despite similarities this was meaningfully distinct from monotheism strictly speaking, because it did not necessarily deny the existence of other gods despite only worshipping a singular god. it is an imperfect analogy because the relationship between material-historical developments and the spread of theological concepts is much more opaque. but i provide it as an example of a case in which there are examples of beliefs in many ways resembling "nationalism" throughout history, that we might loosely refer to as nationalism, but in a non-superficial analysis its very clear that the geographic & cultural self identity of hans, persians, and athenians of antiquity was fundamentally distinct from germans, chinese, and americans of modernity.

communists believe that internationalism is the sublation of the "national question."

nationalism and cosmopolitanism are presented as superhistorical ideas unto themselves and debated on their merits and flaws in a way that inevitably obscures the actual structures and functions underlying these ideas. it is true that cultural differences exist, and these differences perpetuate themselves or fail to do so by many different means, most prominent among them being interchange of goods and purposes for the purposes of reproduction, which relies on various degrees of geographic proximity and potential to easily communicate. these features, persisting over time among a stable population, engender political and ideological differentiation that further actualizes the distinctness of "a people." among the political distinctions are a state that recognizes itself as obliged to enforce law within particular geographic boundaries, which includes the regulation of property within and across those borders. liberal cosmopolitanism can appeal to the reality of our interrelatedness and shared humanity in spite of borders and nation-states, but it cannot wish away this reality. so at best it can only advocate for a less abrasive politics of nationalism, and more often just takes the form of individual moralist posturing about ones own global perspective and concerns.

communists seek to do away with the nation-state, but that doesnt mean just saying the nation-state is bad or irrational. it certainly doesnt mean denying the existence of the nation-state and saying its "merely" a social construct. communists also want to do away with the proletariat, and it would be obviously ridiculous to say that this means that the proletariat isnt real. in the same way that the dictatorship of the proletariat is meant to use the historical means and terrain at our disposal (the mechanisms of the state) to lay the groundwork for the self-abolition of the proletariat by surpassing the necessity for sale of wage-labor, internationalism seeks to use the historical means and terrain at our disposal (diplomacy, recognition, and methods of interchange between national peoples) for the self-abolition of nation-states, by surpassing the necessity for the legal and political distinction between nations.

>>2843812
Well, now that you mention it, we don't have solidarity for you.

>>2843794
Inertia that continues to be withered by the real movement

>>2843794
"nationalism" isn't a single phenomenon with set reasons for its success, black nationalism exists for very different reasons from white nationalism, tutsi and hutu began as economic categories, greeks still thought themselves romans for centuries after it was economically advantageous, etc.

>>2843812
Why would some random person in Kentucky have solidarity with some random person in Arizona? Why would some random native to Bordeaux give a fuck about a random native of Nice? Nationalism is a myth.

>>2858239
>black nationalism exists for very different reasons from white nationalism
Yes, but it's still a Burgerreich cancer.

I don't think nationalism is that special or impossible to get rid of. Not to be Marxstradamus, but I think that as the fact that the nation-state is an untenable organizational form for working class politics becomes more obvious, it will be easier to separate nationalist reaction from the real movement. The biggest class base for nationalists today are lumpenized and declassed workers, downwardly mobile petit bourgeoisie, and workers whose bourgeois freedoms are limited by despotic regimes, lack of skill, or conditions nearing slavery. The global working class in the classical Marxist sense of the term has no qualms about migrating or working for foreign companies so long as the places and the firms they can work for offer better terms. Of course, these people are not free from the competition between workers, hence they are prone to reactionary and particularist impulses of their own (see Indian migrants in the UK who would vote for Reform based on limiting the number of migrants allowed to enter the country) but they have a practical class experience of being an international subject and might therefore be more amenable to the idea of proletarian socialism rather than national socialism(s).