We haven't had this thread in a while so I'm bringing it back. >>>/leftypol/2851498 says mods will remove it so I am proving it wrong.
The Zionist Entity is a genocidal settler-colonial apartheid state set up by the European and North American powers to colonize the middle east. Even early zionists like Theodor Herzl understood Israel in these explicitly settler-colonial terms. Here is Herzl speaking in the 1800s, when Palestine was still Ottoman territory:
>If His Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine, we could offer to resolve Turkey’s finances. For Europe, we would form part of a bulwark against Asia there, we would serve as the advance post of civilisation against barbarism.
So Theodor Herzel felt not only that European people were entitled to Palestine over the people already living there (including Ottoman Jews), but that the presence of "civilized" Europeans in Israel would form a "bulwark" (forward operating base(offensive, not defensive)) against Asia, which entire continent Herzl racistly characterized as "barbaric."
Herzl was born on May 2nd , 1860 in Budapest, Hungary to a family of German speaking assimilated Jews. His father, Jakob, was a wealthy businessman and the young Theodor was expected to enter politics or engineering by his parents. In a sense, he did not disappoint, as Herzl was destined to become the father of political Zionism. While Herzl never saw his Jewish state during his lifetime, his ideology remains so influential that even today he is considered the father of Israel.
Herzl’s birthday is a holiday in Israel, his grave is a national monument, the organization he founded is still active today and the largest mountain in the country was re-named in his honor. It is not an exaggeration to say that Herzl and his ideology remain central to Zionism.
As a young man, Herzl was a fanatic Germanophile. He believed that if Jews simply tried hard enough, they could become “Germanized” and shake off what he called “shameful Jewish characteristics.” Herzl viewed German culture and language as inherently superior to that of the reviled working-class Yiddish speaking Jews. At first, he believed that Jews should be Germanized, arguing that Eastern European Jews were so "savage" and backwards that they must learn the very concepts of beauty and nobility by studying the works of authors like Goethe and Shakespeare. He initially envisioned his Zion as a German colony, and waxed poetic about importing German culture to the orient. However, as time went on, Herzl increasingly started to believe that Jews could not and should not assimilate into Europe, and the only solution to the “Jewish question” was the complete removal of all Jews from Europe. Herzl’s Zionism is fundamentally based in notions about Jewish incompatibility with gentile society. Herzl dedicated the rest of his life to his goal of a Jewish state. In 1897, he founded the World Zionist Organization, a big tent coalition of Zionists dedicated to creating a Jewish state by any means necessary. As time went on, and the "Labor" Zionist wings were increasingly persecuted by Herzl, the organization moved farther and farther to the right. Given what Herzl believed in, this is understandable. Unlike the Zionists of today, who must pretend to have some respect for the charade known as international law, Herzl was quite open about his plans.
In the view of Herzl, Israel was explicitly a colonial project, and he toured the capitals of Europe trying to drum up support and funding for his cause. Herzl cast a wide net, he was not terribly concerned with who supported him, or why. He gladly worked with some of the most extreme antisemites on earth. After many attempts to get a meeting with Tsar Nicholas II by promising to solve Russia’s “Jewish problem”, Herzl finally got a letter saying Russia would support his proposed deportation of the Jews. He kept it for the rest of his life, treating it as one of his most prized possessions.
At the same time, Tsarist forces were carrying out reactionary pogroms all throughout the so-called Pale of Settlement, the home of most of Europe’s Jews. In 1903, the same year Herzl was in correspondence with the Tsar, over seven hundred pogroms took place in Ukraine and Moldova alone resulting in the murder of thousands of Jews. In many cases, the pogroms were incited by the Tsar’s secret police and in others the guilty were simply granted clemency by the government. Herzl knew all of this, and his continued support of the Tsarist government was controversial even inside his own movement.
In the end, it was all for nothing. The Tsar did not keep his word and Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of Jews in exchange for empty promises. Sadly, the genocidal tendencies inside Zionism would only accelerate as the movement grew. The Tsar wasn’t the only one who used Herzl as a tool. Starting in 1896, Herzl actively worked with the Ottoman Sultan Abdul Hamid II. After a meeting with the Sultan’s advisors in the Levant to discuss strategy, Herzl threw his support behind the Armenian Genocide, a crime so vile it had cut off the Ottomans from European loans. Herzl believed that he could jump in to fill that gap, offering to pay off the empire’s increasing debts using funds raised from European Zionists in exchange for permission to start a colony in Palestine.
Although he found almost no support even inside the World Zionist Council, Herzl spent 5 years touring Europe, speaking, raising funds and writing articles in support of Turkey’s extermination of the Armenian people. Herzl cast the crumbling empire as a historical ally of the Jews and one they should support. He called the Ottomans civilized and decent people, justified in their actions due to the allegedly backwards and violent ways of the subhuman Armenians. He was even awarded a medal by the Grand Vizier in Istanbul, in commemoration of his loyal service to the Ottoman Empire.
In 1901, Herzl finally got his long-awaited meeting with the Sultan, who rejected his proposal out of hand. Once again, Herzl was perfectly willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for words on paper. Today, Herzl’s "civilized" slaughter is viewed as an act of genocide by all credible historians and groups as diverse as the United Nations, the United States Government, the European Union, the Anti-Defamation League, and the World Jewish Congress, who specifically called it “the blueprint of the Holocaust.” With his options dwindling, Herzl even turned to Cecil Rhodes, the openly white supremacist founder of the unrecognized apartheid state of Rhodesia to ask for his advice and blessing to colonize Palestine. Although his efforts amounted to nothing, the ideological connections remained, and the state of Israel became a close ally of Rhodesia. At one point, Israel was one of the only countries willing to sell weapons and licenses to its fellow apartheid states. Israel even collaborated with apartheid South Africa on its nuclear program, a direct violation of international law which was never punished.
>"You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial" - Herzl in a letter to Cecil Rhodes
At best, Herzl represents the sort of reactionary, callous “realpolitik” that the state of Israel still embraces today. At worst, he was a genocidal racist willing to support even the vilest crimes to advance his movement.
You people are hilarious. You will blame the existence of Israel on everything under the sun except the Jews themselves.
>>2851544>Herzl wasn't jewishilliterate as usual
>>2851544>>2851546You will always run into the issue of the good Jews who are on the side of the Palestinians, (or justice in general). So you can never get a leftychud to talk about le Jews because they cannot equate Ben Gvir with Norman Finkelstein for example. Even Kurt Metzger does that speil about the zionists are not judaism whatever, but I know the torah and yeah, it ain't pretty for the anti-zionist jews. If you read the Torah, all the shit the zionists are doing is actually an obligation from god while the anti-zios are traitors. Just leftychuds are not ready to have this conversation.
>>2851544Your flag is zionist btw.
and after 1945 zionism and nazism merged under NATOism. hence nazis in the ukrainian army kneeling to zelensky, and nazis in the US army happily protecting israel.
>>2851552>If you read the Torah, all the shit the zionists are doing is actually an obligation from god while the anti-zios are traitors. Just leftychuds are not ready to have this conversation.then i support the traitor jews against the majority. problem? i have always been against religion. i also am against christianity, and islam. doesn't mean i don't want to protect christians and muslims from zionist violence. similarly i want to protect jews from nazi violence. that's why i can't be a nazi. also hitler supported zionism through the haavara agreement so the nazis didn't really care about stopping "le bad jews" they actually enabled "le bad jews" while targetting working class secular jews for having ties to communism.
>>2851552Finklestein opposed BDS. So did Chomsky.
There are no truly anti Zionist jews
>>2851544i blame the nazis for nazism, not the germans
i blame the zionists for zionism, not the jews
i blame reactionaries for reactionary stuff.
collective blame is actually very abrahamic.
exodus 34:7 says god punishes kids for the crimes of their parents up to 4 generations
that is not the kind of thing i support no matter who says it
>>2851558I completely agree with everything you wrote. I was referring specifically to the aversion of labeling zionist violence as jewish. I also noticed how muslim violence is called islamist violence and christian violence is called fundamentalist violence. You are correct, but word games obfuscate things to normies.
>>2851564
>exodus 34:7 says god punishes kids for the crimes of their parents up to 4 generationsAnd the bible also says in deuteronomy iirc that the son should not pay for the crimes of the father. You will get a lot of whiplash from reading the old testament.
>>2851568I felt it was a mark felton vid.
I was felting correctly.
>>2851560what about those who have renounced jewishness and juddaism and everything that goes with it?
inb4
>i didn't mean literally no zionist jews lol what are you autistic?
So, what should the left be doing for Palestine that they already haven’t been doing in the past three years?
>>2851682>So, what should the left be doing for Palestine that they already haven’t been doing in the past three years?there were 42 recorded assassination attempts on hitler.
>>2852162Most of those were by his command who were also nazis
>>2852836Also killing civilians without weapons > actually risking dying
>>2852162Ok anon, you first.
Hind Rajab Foundation & Center for Constitutional Rights Call on NY Attorney General to Investigate Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir in Advance of July 8 Visit2 July 2026, New York — In light of consistent inaction from the U.S. Department of Justice with respect to The Hind Rajab Foundation’s urgent request for prosecution of Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir, the Hind Rajab Foundation and the Center for Constitutional Rights have submitted a letter to New York Attorney General Letitia James to urge her to meet with
New York victims of Ben-Gvir’s crimes and initiate an investigation of Ben-Gvir under New York State criminal law in anticipation of his visit to
New York City on July 7-8.The letter argues that because a number of New York residents have been harmed by Ben-Gvir’s criminal conduct and because Ben-Gvir may also be engaging in criminal conduct while in New York, Attorney General James has the authority and the obligation to commence a criminal investigation into Ben-Gvir.
Specifically, the letter cites:
1. Torture and abuse by the Israeli Prison Service (IPS) under Ben-Gvir’s authority against New York residents, including one Palestinian American subjected to starvation and other torture methods while detained in an Israeli prison, and ten participants in the 2025 and 2026 Global Sumud Flotillas, who were subjected to torture and abuse, both directly by Ben-Gvir and by officers operating under his authority, after they were illegally detained in international waters.2. Ben-Gvir’s distribution of gun permits and weapons to Israeli settlers in the Occupied West Bank in furtherance of Israel’s policies of apartheid and violent dispossession.3. Ben-Gvir’s direct incitement to genocide, which has resulted in concrete genocidal actions against Palestinians within the IPS, Gaza, and the Occupied West Bank.The letter further argues that, given Ben-Gvir’s actions in these three areas of responsibility, there are reasonable grounds to believe that he has committed at least nine different crimes under the New York Penal Code.
The Hind Rajab Foundation and the Center for Constitutional Rights have further urged Attorney General James to:
Convene and lead an interdivisional effort to identify New York residents that actively served in the Israeli armed forces since October 7, 2023, identify the perpetrators of Israeli atrocity crimes and assess those crimes' impact on New York residents;Establish an Atrocity Crimes Accountability Task Force in the Criminal Justice Division responsible for investigating atrocity crimes perpetrated by or against New York residents in Gaza or the occupied West Bank.The Hind Rajab Foundation and the Center for Constitutional Rights expressed their willingness to facilitate this process and reiterated their commitment to holding Ben-Gvir accountable for his crimes and to bringing justice to the victims.
Jake Romm, the Hind Rajab Foundation’s representative in the U.S., stated,
“Since the beginning of the present genocide, the U.S. Department of Justice has met our requests for prosecution with consistent silence and inaction in direct contravention of the U.S.’s international and domestic legal obligations. If the federal government is going to continue to deny justice for victims of Israeli atrocities—even when those victims are U.S. nationals—then it is up to U.S. states to provide their own avenues for accountability instead.”“Itamar Ben-Gvir is a far-right, ultranationalist Israeli politician and hardline Israeli settlement leader who serves in the Israeli cabinet, brashly resorting to extreme racist rhetoric, glorification of violence, and incitement,” said Brad Parker, Associate Director of Policy at the Center for Constitutional Rights.
“Ben-Gvir’s actions amount to atrocity crimes against Palestinians, for which Israeli officials like Ben-Gvir enjoy near complete impunity. When Trump is complicit and works to foster that impunity, it is imperative that New York State officials act to challenge it.”Itamar Ben Gvir is one of the principal architects and promoters of the ongoing genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity committed against the Palestinian people. The harm that he has caused extends beyond Palestine and has directly impacted New Yorkers. Attorney General James now has the opportunity—and obligation—to ensure that New York does not become a safe haven for perpetrators of grave atrocity crimes.
https://www.hindrajabfoundation.org/posts/hrf-and-ccr-call-on-ny-attorney-general-to-investigate-israeli-minister-ben-gvir >>2851552how you seen this deabte between laif marouf, the anti-zionist neturei karta rabbi, and gilad atzmon?
its exactly about what you are saying.
>Gilad Atzmon's argument that "anti-Zionism" obscures rather than confronts the core issue — his analytical position,
presented for debate
>Why Atzmon argues the Israel-Palestine movement has structurally deferred the hardest questions
>Rabbi Beck: how the Neturei Karta approach works — and why he argues it demonstrates opposition to Zionism is a Jewish
religious imperative, not antisemitism
>Laith Marouf's challenge: why he argues Jewish anti-Zionists must move from public solidarity to internal institutional
confrontation
>>2851552The main issue is this:
Why as non-Jewish people, should you have to hold your tongue, in relation to criticism of Judaism, and Jewish biases?
This is my problem with all of this, as someone who still has major fedora tipping tendencies, I have never, actually fucking understood, why in fuck I am not allowed to dunk on the absolute fucking insane bullshit that Jewish people believe, but I'm actually allowed to dunk on those same positions, if they come from Evangelicals or Muslims?
The reality is, you shouldn't actually have to give a fuck, it's not the responsibility of non-Jewish people, to constantly adhere to Jewish biases, and mollycoddle their fucking godawful views or "support the Jewish people".
The vast majority of Jews would be perfectly fucking happy with annihilating every Lebanese and Palestinian person off the face of the earth, most mainstream Jewish synagogues, orgs etc, are deeply involved with the Israeli Government, and the IDF and Settlers. The biggest fucking Jewish charity is Taglit ffs.
Look at all the shit Muslims get, across the media, across mainstream politics etc, and the reality is, most Muslims actually fucking hate Terrorism, you don't see most fucking Mosques here across the west, openly supporting fucking ISIS or Al Qaeda. But most mainstream Jewish organizations, from top to bottom, are deeply involved with supporting, frankly, Terrorism.
People don't hold their tongue also with Evangelicals, you can openly hold Evangelicals accountable for Trump, despite not every single Evangelical voted for Trump, some are actually Democrats, but that doesn't matter, because when it's 9/10, it's just meaningless semantics at that point. 93/100 Jewish people view Israel and Zionism as core to their identity and faith, they support Israel and everything it does in Gaza and Palestine, so it should be, fair game, to criticise them directly for their shitty views and actions without having people cry "Antisemitism", "ANTISEMITISM", "You're a Nazi!11!!!"
>>2868053Yeah, I hate sunni and shia islamists and I say it. Rojava didn't kill enough of them.
>>2868063The thing is, that is a mainstream opinion, it's good politics to go to war with Islamists. Yet you could never say the same thing about Zionist terrorists.
Also I'm not even talking about "killing" people, just literally disagreeing with them and arguing against their fucking dogshit views, and saying, yes, they should be held accountable, for their actual direct material actions.
There is no actual legitimate argument, beyond crying "antisemitism" as to why any of us, are not allowed to publically just call Jewish beliefs and biases bullshit. If that is "Antisemitism" then we have to basically just admit then that Antisemitism, like Islamophobia itself is a bullshit term.
>>2868066>The thing is, that is a mainstream opinionDepends on where.
>Yet you could never say the same thing about Zionist terroristsPeople say it all the time. But as Kurd muslims in Rojava weren't islamists, Jews who voted for Mamdani aren't Zionists.
Israel is a multicultural, multiethnic state
Gaza is theocratic ethnostate
>>2868077Jews will generally vote for whatever will prevent concentration of power so they can't be held responsible for anything.
I don't even know why I bother debating Jewish people on Reddit or Twitter, they are literally the most bad faith group, I've ever encountered in my life. You can literally show them polling from their own antisemitism barometers and shit, and they will just still double down into nonsensical semantics to cry "antisemitism".
>>2868077>Depends on where.US is the only real outlier because majority of American "Jews" are non-religious/secular, don't all live in a single area of one or two cities and don't have major monolithic Community leadership orgs. The US doesn't even a "Chief Rabbi" like other countries.
>People say it all the time. People don't really talk about killing Zionists lol. If they did they would be arrested almost immediately.
>But as Kurd muslims in Rojava weren't islamists, Jews who voted for Mamdani aren't Zionists.I will make the argument that the distinction doesn't really matter in the end when 90%+ of Jews still describe themselves as Zionists. Same reason we don't hand wring over people using "Christians" as shorthand for Evangelicals.
>>2868597>I don't even know why I bother debating Jewish people on Reddit or Twitter, they are literally the most bad faith group, I've ever encountered in my life. The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day. Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck. I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.
Gradually I began to hate them.