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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Real question, how many of you adhere neatly to one ideology? I think everybody vibes with a particular tendency, but personally I'm totally happy to steal good ideas from across ideological lines. I definitely think there's an optimal way to achieve a leftist society as well, however if someone implements another plan to get us there that doesn't fuck others over, I don't see myself being too upset so long as we get where we're going.

Just asking because I see people engage in never-ending theory battles online, as well as discounting the contributions of leftists of other tendencies. It seems so strange to me, like instead of acknowledging the good work others have done, while maintaining your own critiques for how to do it better, it seems more in vogue to treat other ideologies as fakes designed to waste your time and meet them with hostility.

I mean obviously this is the internet, people are constantly cranked up to 11, trolling, or genuinely suffering from untreated mental illness. But it seems to me that we're seeing a massive resurgence in leftist thought and action, so I figured people would exercise a little discipline to make the most of the moment. Tbf, this could all be crazy people, bots, government psyops, and algorithmic manipulation. I've just seen people I genuinely appreciate engage in the same shit, so there has to be some element that's real.

>>2858069
this is the objectively correct way to view the world. learn enough from all sides and the answer will show itself.

File: 1783206620655-5.jpg (47.74 KB, 1080x296, 1.jpg)

>>2858069
communism isnt an ideology you mouthbreathing retard

and this is not how ideology works at all. people dont accept ideology first and then follow it, they already are coerced into social relations and ideology seeks to explain it back to them

>>2858611
>listen to enough morons and youll magically find out the "correct" "position" (what is class even?? scientific analysis?????)
lol ok

Im a pan-american marxist

>>2858069
No one does, it’s just idpoll to be contrarian
>reformists and trotskyists are marxists that feel bad abt 20th century socialism
>marxist-leninism are edgy kids that think vanguardism is cools
>maoists are the above but worse
>leftcoms of all types want to be contrarian within the movement to differentiate themselves

>>2858069
>Real question, how many of you adhere neatly to one ideology?
Nobody because to do so is literally impossible. I never really have and have always hated the notion that I should. Marxism is a method, not an ideology and the biggest mistake Marxists have made is ideologizing Marxism.
>Just asking because I see people engage in never-ending theory battles online, as well as discounting the contributions of leftists of other tendencies.
That's because it's simply a glorified hobby for the people that do this. There's no real stakes for them no matter the outcome. They'll discard their "socialism" like Van Jones once they get their good make-work job in academia, HR or the media and get over their commie phase.

File: 1783478311824-0.png (90.03 KB, 645x1197, ClipboardImage.png)

>You did an idealism. You did a revisionism. You did a moralism. You did an adventurism. You did a weak self-criticism. You did no growth. This makes it abundantly clear you don't even understand the material causes of the multiplicity of your offenses

>>2858713
>not deserving of serious examination
what happened to the ruthless criticism of all that exists? As a true Marx knower, this is actually one of the weakest args Marx ever made. He is usually much better than this. This sentence is an eye roller meant only to preach to the choir. I would say it is on par with one of Lenin's weakest statements: "The Marxist doctrine is omnipotent because it is true". Oh wow. It can do anything because it's true. Very compelling line of reasoning. 2+2=4 is also true, but that doesn't make it "omnipotent."

These statements are polemical, and in reality science, including revolutionary science, seriously examines everything and looks for blind spots and holes in everything.

(not OP btw, I just think dragging out that pic is just a weak appeal to authority, a good marxist can make a stronger argument than that)

>>2858069
>personally I'm totally happy to steal good ideas from across ideological lines
"I'm not like those other girls, I'm non-ideological"
The girl:
<Neoliberalism frames the ideal subject as highly flexible and adaptable to free-market changes, emphasizing self-investment in human capital and constant self-evaluation to meet market demands. This subject internalizes competition and market logic as guiding principles for personal and professional life.
<Characteristics of the Ideal Neoliberal Subject
<The ideal neoliberal subject is defined by several key attributes that enable them to thrive in a free-market environment. These characteristics include:
<Flexibility and Adaptability
>Responsive to Market Changes: The neoliberal subject is expected to quickly adjust to shifts in the market, demonstrating resilience in the face of economic fluctuations.
>Continuous Learning: There is an emphasis on lifelong learning and skill development to remain competitive in a dynamic job market.
<Self-Investment in Human Capital
>Personal Development: Individuals are encouraged to invest in their own education and skills, viewing themselves as a product to be improved for better employment prospects.
>Market-Oriented Mindset: The focus is on enhancing one's value in the labor market, often prioritizing skills that are in high demand.
<Internalization of Competition
>Competitive Spirit: The neoliberal subject internalizes competition as a fundamental aspect of life, driving them to constantly evaluate their performance against others.
>Market Logic: Decisions in personal and professional life are guided by market principles, where success is measured by economic outcomes.
<Implications of Neoliberal Subjectivity
>The transformation into a neoliberal subject has broader societal implications:
>Social Relations: Relationships may become transactional, focused on mutual benefit and competition.
>Mental Health: The pressure to constantly perform and adapt can lead to stress and anxiety.
>Economic Inequality: The emphasis on individual success can exacerbate disparities, as not everyone has equal access to resources for self-investment.
<The ideal neoliberal subject embodies a blend of flexibility, self-reliance, and competitive drive, reflecting the values of a market-driven society.

>>2858713
>communism isnt an ideology
French cultural Marxist ideology: "its impossible to tell if Jeffrey Epstein is a rapist, what even is truth? What if the Ukrainian sex workers consented???? There's no such thing is globalism, Soros does harm reduction. The real problem with society is paternalist Stalinist state that controls bodies in spaces. No one should ever defend the Iran regime!"
historical materialist Marxist critique: (scorned and dismissed as 'outdated' and 'class reductionist' by the compatible left of woke AOC liberal Zionists who somehow believe they are antifascists doing harm reduction)

https://monthlyreview.org/article-author/gabriel-rockhill/
https://thephilosophicalsalon.com/author/gabrielrockhill/
know the difference between actual materialist science that studies political-economy VS pseudoscience of PMC petite bourgeois careerists that reduces philosophy into irrelevant little intellectual word games so they can build careers out of saying obscure words no one has any use for

>Real question, how many of you adhere neatly to one ideology?
I don't even pretend to. I work alongside M-Ls and anarchists in the same day.

My only immovable belief is that we need to get the fuck out of capitalism.

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>>2861792
who are you quoting?

>>2861861
It's funny that you have to strawman the french libs to make your own idealost libtard look good like economy and geopolitics are not bourgeois pseudosciences lol

my ideology is so fucking rigid right now

>>2861861
>French cultural Marxist ideology: "its impossible to tell if Jeffrey Epstein is a rapist, what even is truth? What if the Ukrainian sex workers consented???? There's no such thing is globalism, Soros does harm reduction. The real problem with society is paternalist Stalinist state that controls bodies in spaces. No one should ever defend the Iran regime!"
Obsessed ACPoid brimstone

>>2858069
My position aligns readily with anti-revisionist Marxism-Leninism. I have easily recognized that many opportunists fabricate dogmas where none exist to justify apathy and capitulation to imperialist capitalism; to abandon the foundations of scientific socialism; to reject independence from the bourgeoisie in their analyses; to refuse to defend past socialist experiments; and to fail to understand the path to be taken—from the pre-revolutionary situation through the communist revolution, the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the socialist economy with its socialist construction, all the way to the withering away of the state that will accompany global socialist hegemony. For this reason, I do not fear holding a "dogmatic" position, because I have realized that those labeled "dogmatists" are often merely disingenuous opportunists; they rely on cherry-picked texts to fuel their own childish resentments and to intimidate observers who lack self-confidence or have not read the scientific socialist theory on the subject.

I accept new information provided it complements the theory of scientific socialism—just as Lenin complemented Marx and Engels, or as other Marxists have made contributions. However, I do not tolerate revisionism regarding any fundamental tenet of scientific socialist theory that denies the necessity of the proletariat's political supremacy or the right of the dictatorship of the proletariat to employ revolutionary terror against counter-revolutionaries, revisionists, reactionaries, liberals, libertarians, class-collaborationists, or "freedom" enthusiasts who oppose the socialization of the economy—measures aimed at abolishing private property, the anarchy of production, and social classes. I likewise do not tolerate those who oppose national economic planning in favor of fantasies about decentralization; such individuals will be punished.

If you wish, I can provide you with some Marxist texts to read so that you may immunize yourself against the opportunism fostered by the hegemony of liberal ideas in today's capitalism.

>>2862436
>to refuse to defend past socialist experiments
if they failed they should be learned from

>>2862436
>they rely on cherry-picked texts
as opposed to providing no sources at all and just waxing poetic about how people who do are always cherry picking

>>2862436
>I accept new information provided it complements [my preexisting biases]
>I do not tolerate [information which does not confirm my biases]
>the right […] to employ "revolutionary" terror [against those who disagree with me]
>such individuals will be punished.

omg do it already. i bet you've never even spanked a lover let alone really punished somebody

>>2862436
Trotsky won
Bordiga won
Pannekoek won

>>2862737
>if they failed they should be learned from
But denying the achievements and progress of past revolutionaries is not learning. I have realized that many of the failures in the war against imperialist capitalism and its agents stem from naiveté and not wanting to be "authoritarian," where the enemy class will take advantage of weaknesses and encourage opportunists and revisionists who degrade the dictatorship of the proletariat and its duty to spread revolutionary terror. My greatest criticism would be of communists in bourgeois countries that did not have a socialist revolution for various reasons, and bourgeois states on the periphery of imperialist capitalism that suffered a coup d'état, where I realized that many of these coups could have been prevented if the so-called left had not been afraid of power, conflict, or being authoritarian in order to spread terror or use mechanisms within the bourgeois state itself that could prevent or intimidate a coup d'état from failing.

The fundamentals of scientific socialism and their defense to advance the class struggle are the lessons to be learned; the use of revolutionary terror, no matter how much you are hated or how many obstacles have to be overcome or sacrifices have to be made, is another. My position is to defend the supremacy of the proletarian class to socialize the economy and the defense of the fundamental principles of scientific socialism so that the proletarian class becomes the new ruling class that will abolish social classes. Abandoning these principles to capitulate to capitalist propaganda is unacceptable. Those workers and communist revolutionaries who martyred themselves in the class struggle and serving the political domination of the proletarian class have my respect, but mistakes are merely weaknesses in class warfare, and from what I have studied, the solution is the opposite of the false discourse of those who desire "freedom" or are afraid of having power and using it to spread revolutionary terror.

>>2862739
An example of a quote I have against opportunists is from "Capital Volume II Chapter 6: The Costs of Circulation in section three in Costs of Transportation" because some opportunists deny that workers involved in transporting goods are productive workers.

<Consequently, although the transportation industry when based on capitalist production appears as a cause of circulation costs, this special form of appearance does not alter the matter in the least.


<Quantities of products are not increased by transportation. Nor, with a few exceptions, is the possible alteration of their natural qualities, brought about by transportation, an intentional useful effect; it is rather an unavoidable evil. But the use-value of things is materialised only in their consumption, and their consumption may necessitate a change of location of these things, hence may require an additional process of production, in the transport industry. The productive capital invested in this industry imparts value to the transported products, partly by transferring value from the means of transportation, partly by adding value through the labour performed in transport. This last-named increment of value consists, as it does in all capitalist production, of a replacement of wages and of surplus-value.


<Within each process of production, a great role is played by the change of location of the subject of labour and the required instruments of labour and labour-power — such as cotton trucked from the carding to the spinning room or coal hoisted from the shaft to the surface. The transition of the finished product as finished goods from one independent place of production to another located at a distance shows the same phenomenon, only on a larger scale. The transport of products from one productive establishment to another is furthermore followed by the passage of the finished products from the sphere of production to that of consumption. The product is not ready for consumption until it has completed these movements.


<Karl Marx, 1885, Capital Volume II, Chapter 6: The Costs of Circulation, III. Costs of Transportation


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1885-c2/ch06.htm#3

I also have a quote against Sakaists and Third Worldists in the First World who distort Lenin's term "labor-aristocracy" due to their resentment against workers in the imperialist core:

<In a letter to Marx, dated October 7, 1858, Engels wrote: “…The English proletariat is actually becoming more and more bourgeois, so that this most bourgeois of all nations is apparently aiming ultimately at the possession of a bourgeois aristocracy and a bourgeois proletariat alongside the bourgeoisie. For a nation which exploits the whole world this is of course to a certain extent justifiable.” In a letter to Sorge, dated September 21, 1872, Engels informs him that Hales kicked up a big row in the Federal Council of the International and secured a vote of censure on Marx for saying that “the English labour leaders had sold themselves”. Marx wrote to Sorge on August 4, 1874: “As to the urban workers here [in England], it is a pity that the whole pack of leaders did not get into Parliament. This would be the surest way of getting rid of the whole lot.” In a letter to Marx, dated August 11, 1881, Engels speaks about “those very worst English trade unions which allow themselves to be led by men sold to, or at least paid by, the bourgeoisie.” In a letter to Kautsky, dated September 12, 1882, Engels wrote: “You ask me what the English workers think about colonial policy. Well, exactly the same as they think about politics in general. There is no workers’ party here, there are only Conservatives and Liberal-Radicals, and the workers gaily share the feast of England’s monopoly of the world market and the colonies.”


<On December 7, 1889, Engels wrote to Sorge: “The most repulsive thing here [in England] is the bourgeois ‘respectability’, which has grown deep into the bones of the workers…. Even Tom Mann, whom I regard as the best of the lot, is fond of mentioning that he will be lunching with the Lord Mayor. If one compares this with the French, one realises, what a revolution is good for, after all.”[10] In a letter, dated April 19, 1890: “But under the surface the movement [of the working class in England] is going on, is embracing ever wider sections and mostly just among the hitherto stagnant lowest [Engels’s italics] strata. The day is no longer far off when this mass will suddenly find itself, when it will dawn upon it that it itself is this colossal mass in motion.” On March 4, 1891: “The failure of the collapsed Dockers’ Union; the ‘old’ conservative trade unions, rich and therefore cowardly, remain lone on the field….” September 14, 1891: at the Newcastle Trade Union Congress the old unionists, opponents of the eight-hour day, were defeated “and the bourgeois papers recognise the defeat of the bourgeois labour party” (Engels’s italics throughout)….


<That these ideas, which were repeated by Engels over the course of decades, were so expressed by him publicly, in the press, is proved by his preface to the second edition of The Condition of the Working Class in England, 1892. Here he speaks of an “aristocracy among the working class”, of a “privileged minority of the workers”, in contradistinction to the “great mass of working people”. “A small, privileged, protected minority” of the working class alone was “permanently benefited” by the privileged position of England in 1848–68, whereas “the great bulk of them experienced at best but a temporary improvement”…. “With the break-down of that [England’s industrial] monopoly, the English working class will lose that privileged position…” The members of the “new” unions, the unions of the unskilled workers, “had this immense advantage, that their minds were virgin soil, entirely free from the inherited ‘respectable’ bourgeois prejudices which hampered the brains of the better situated ‘old unionists’” …. “The so-called workers’ representatives” in England are people “who are forgiven their being members of the working class because they themselves would like to drown their quality of being workers in the ocean of their liberalism…”


[…]

<The bourgeoisie of an imperialist “Great” Power can economically bribe the upper strata of “its” workers by spending on this a hundred million or so francs a year, for its superprofits most likely amount to about a thousand million. And how this little sop is divided among the labour ministers, “labour representatives” (remember Engels’s splendid analysis of the term), labour members of War Industries Committees, labour officials, workers belonging to the narrow craft unions, office employees, etc., etc., is a secondary question.


[…]

<The last third of the nineteenth century saw the transition to the new, imperialist era. Finance capital not of one, but of several, though very few, Great Powers enjoys a monopoly. (In Japan and Russia the monopoly of military power, vast territories, or special facilities for robbing minority nationalities, China, etc., partly supplements, partly takes the place of, the monopoly of modern, up-to-date finance capital.) This difference explains why England’s monopoly position could remain unchallenged for decades. The monopoly of modern finance capital is being frantically challenged; the era of imperialist wars has begun. It was possible in those days to bribe and corrupt the working class of one country for decades. This is now improbable, if not impossible. But on the other hand, every imperialist “Great” Power can and does bribe smaller strata (than in England in 1848–68) of the “labour aristocracy”. Formerly a “bourgeois labour party”, to use Engels’s remarkably profound expression, could arise only in one country, because it alone enjoyed a monopoly, but, on the other hand, it could exist for a long time. Now a “bourgeois labour party” is inevitable and typical in all imperialist countries; but in view of the desperate struggle they are waging for the division of spoils it is improbable that such a party can prevail for long in a number of countries. For the trusts, the financial oligarchy, high prices, etc., while enabling the bribery of a handful in the top layers, are increasingly oppressing, crushing, ruining and torturing the mass of the proletariat and the semi-proletariat.


[…]

<On the economic basis referred to above, the political institutions of modern capitalism—press, parliament associations, congresses etc.—have created political privileges and sops for the respectful, meek, reformist and patriotic office employees and workers, corresponding to the economic privileges and sops. Lucrative and soft jobs in the government or on the war industries committees, in parliament and on diverse committees, on the editorial staffs of “respectable”, legally published newspapers or on the management councils of no less respectable and “bourgeois law-abiding” trade unions—this is the bait by which the imperialist bourgeoisie attracts and rewards the representatives and supporters of the “bourgeois labour parties”.


<One of the most common sophistries of Kautskyism is its reference to the “masses”. We do not want, they say, to break away from the masses and mass organisations! But just think how Engels put the question. In the nineteenth century the “mass organisations” of the English trade unions were on the side of the bourgeois labour party. Marx and Engels did not reconcile themselves to it on this ground; they exposed it. They did not forget, firstly, that the trade union organisations directly embraced a minority of the proletariat. In England then, as in Germany now, not more than one-fifth of the proletariat was organised. No one can seriously think it possible to organise the majority of the proletariat under capitalism. Secondly—and this is the main point—it is not so much a question of the size of an organisation, as of the real, objective significance of its policy: does its policy represent the masses, does it serve them, i.e., does it aim at their liberation from capitalism, or does it represent the interests of the minority, the minority’s reconciliation with capitalism? The latter was true of England in the nineteenth century, and it is true of Germany, etc., now.


<Engels draws a distinction between the “bourgeois labour party” of the old trade unions—the privileged minority—and the “lowest mass”, the real majority, and appeals to the latter, who are not infected by “bourgeois respectability”. This is the essence of Marxist tactics!


<Neither we nor anyone else can calculate precisely what portion of the proletariat is following and will follow the social-chauvinists and opportunists. This will be revealed only by the struggle, it will be definitely decided only by the socialist revolution. But we know for certain that the “defenders of the fatherland” in the imperialist war represent only a minority. And it is therefore our duty, if we wish to remain socialists to go down lower and deeper, to the real masses; this is the whole meaning and the whole purport of the struggle against opportunism. By exposing the fact that the opportunists and social-chauvinists are in reality betraying and selling the interests of the masses, that they are defending the temporary privileges of a minority of the workers, that they are the vehicles of bourgeois ideas and influences, that they are really allies and agents of the bourgeoisie, we teach the masses to appreciate their true political interests, to fight for socialism and for the revolution through all the long and painful vicissitudes of imperialist wars and imperialist armistices.


<The only Marxist line in the world labour movement is to explain to the masses the inevitability and necessity of breaking with opportunism, to educate them for revolution by waging a relentless struggle against opportunism, to utilise the experience of the war to expose, not conceal, the utter vileness of national-liberal labour politics.


<V.I. Lenin, “Imperialism and the Split in Socialism”

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/oct/x01.htm

I have several other quotes against opportunists who do not know or distort the anti-imperialist position developed in Marxist texts by Marx, Engels, and Lenin; I also have other quotes on many subjects against other types of opportunists.

>>2862740
Communists must have discipline, just as organized workers must have the discipline to organize collectively in the economic planning of a socialist economy, so there is no reason to punish you now. However, if you become an obstacle, acting as a counter-revolutionary, preventing the consolidation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, or standing in the way of the communist revolutionary movement overthrowing the bourgeois state so that the proletariat can acquire political supremacy, then you will be punished.

>>2863073
this guy really is the quotemining king

>>2863076
He is the socialist vanguard bro
You MUST agree with him, the theory demands it

>>2862745
only pancakes truly won

>>2863073
sorry i declare your quotes cherry picked

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>>2863073
>Communists must have discipline, just as organized workers must have the discipline to organize collectively in the economic planning of a socialist economy, so there is no reason to punish you now. However, if you become an obstacle, acting as a counter-revolutionary, preventing the consolidation of the dictatorship of the proletariat, or standing in the way of the communist revolutionary movement overthrowing the bourgeois state so that the proletariat can acquire political supremacy, then you will be punished.
what if i stand in the way on purpose so you can punish me

>>2863092
But I always indicate where I got my quotes from, including references and links to the text; many people who post quotes don't provide the sources. If you disagree, you would have to explain which alternative interpretation of the quotes is the correct one—though even then, I could provide another quote from Marx and Engels to show I am right, as my interpretation is consistent with various other texts of theirs that I keep on hand to counter the interpretations of various opportunists.

>>2858713
>communism isnt an ideology you mouthbreathing retard
I've seen many online leftists make this claim but I've never heard them explain it. Ideology means a system of beliefs but Marxists seem to have their own special definition where it's like something fake. So do Marxists want to abolish bourgeois property or not? Or abolish the distinction between town and country? Institute a DotP? Abolish the wage system? How is this not ideology?

>>2864053
They never explain it because they are full of shit. It's the online left version "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual."


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