They get nowhere enough hate as they deserve for what they're doing in Kashmir……Also, Being ruled by a repressive fascist wanna be regime for the last decade
>>2859240>They get nowhere enough hate as they deserve for what they're doing in Kashmir…Inter-imperialist war.
>>2859259No, Most kashmiris just want independe or at least civil administration from the brutal occupation.
>>2859240(assuming you are indian)
does the indian subcontinent have any revolutionary potential? also who is picrel? saw him in the oc thread, couldn't bother to look into it
>>2859287Indian electoral communism failed, not a single state government is communist led, naxalism failed, operation green hunt and subsequent operations plus Rss/BJP inroads into tribal communities has eroded any support CPI maoist would have. Everyone has a cell phone and can become petit bourgeois via content and cyber scams, it’s over.
>>2859303all you listed were deviationist liberal-hugging "ML" parties.
>Everyone has a cell phone and can become petit bourgeois via content and cyber scamsso time for ICP to recruit industrial-capitalist India is what you're saying?
>it’s overIt just begun
>>2859467You’re four euroaches who couldn’t organize your way out a paper bag you have no right to speak
>>2859483The proletariat is an obstacle to communism, the last 150 years has proven such
>>2859303The Marxist position for bourgeois elections is not abstentionism, but rather organizing into a distinct revolutionary party of the working class for proletarian class domination that is independent of the bourgeoisie. Using the election to count forces and demonstrate its program to the masses, even if its candidates have no chance of winning. Voting for communist candidates is a duty if you call yourself a communist, to develop experience in the class struggle and spread propaganda to the masses.
Have you forgotten what Marx and Engels wrote about how communists should act in a bourgeois democracy?
Let's see quotes:
<Even where there is no prospect of achieving their election the workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence, to gauge their own strength and to bring their revolutionary position and party standpoint to public attention. They must not be led astray by the empty phrases of the democrats, who will maintain that the workers’ candidates will split the democratic party and offer the forces of reaction the chance of victory. All such talk means, in the final analysis, that the proletariat is to be swindled. The progress which the proletarian party will make by operating independently in this way is infinitely more important than the disadvantages resulting from the presence of a few reactionaries in the representative body.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, 1850, "Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League"https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
<The first great step of importance for every country newly entering into the movement is always the organisation of the workers as an independent political party, no matter how, so long as it is a distinct workers' party. And this step has been taken, far more rapidly than we had a right to hope, and that is the main thing. That the first programme of this party is still confused and highly deficient, that it has set up the banner of Henry George, these are inevitable evils but also only transitory ones. The masses must have time and opportunity to develop and they can only have the opportunity when they have their own movement–no matter in what form so long as it is only their own movement–in which they are driven further by their own mistakes and learn wisdom by hurting themselves.
<Frederick Engels, “Letters: Marx-Engels Correspondence 1886”, Engels to Friedrich Adolph Sorge In Hobokenhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1886/letters/86_11_29.htm
<Complete abstention from political action is impossible. The abstentionist press participates in politics every day. It is only a question of how one does it, and of what politics one engages in. For the rest, to us abstention is impossible. The working-class party functions as a political party in most countries by now, and it is not for us to ruin it by preaching abstention. Living experience, the political oppression of the existing governments compels the workers to occupy themselves with politics whether they like it or not, be it for political or for social goals. To preach abstention to them is to throw them into the embrace of bourgeois politics. The morning after the Paris Commune, which has made proletarian political action an order of the day, abstention is entirely out of the question.
<We want the abolition of classes. What is the means of achieving it? The only means is political domination of the proletariat. For all this, now that it is acknowledged by one and all, we are told not to meddle with politics. The abstentionists say they are revolutionaries, even revolutionaries par excellence. Yet revolution is a supreme political act and those who want revolution must also want the means of achieving it, that is, political action, which prepares the ground for revolution and provides the workers with the revolutionary training without which they are sure to become the dupes of the Favres and Pyats the morning after the battle. However, our politics must be working-class politics. The workers' party must never be the tagtail of any bourgeois party; it must be independent and have its goal and its own policy.
<The political freedoms, the right of assembly and association, and the freedom of the press — those are our weapons. Are we to sit back and abstain while somebody tries to rob us of them? It is said that a political act on our part implies that we accept the exiting state of affairs. On the contrary, so long as this state of affairs offers us the means of protesting against it, our use of these means does not signify that we recognise the prevailing order.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, "Apropos Of Working-Class Political Action".https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/09/21.htmLenin also agrees with me if you read the text “Left-Wing” Communism: an Infantile Disorder in the section written "Should We Participate in Bourgeois Parliaments?", so I will leave the link to the page if you want to read it:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ch07.htm >>2859525And how has that worked so far in India?
>>2859535I recall the West Bengal election and the apologists who advocated voting for the "lesser evil" as an excuse to avoid voting for the Communists. I would argue that both the abstentionists and the "lesser evil" apologists have forgotten that a revolutionary socialist party exists to use bourgeois elections to spread propaganda, gauge the balance of forces, and plunge the bourgeois state into crisis by pushing bourgeois democracy to its limits with proposals to democratize the economy—all while remaining independent of the bourgeoisie.
The goal for Communists is not to worry about winning elections, but rather to advance the class struggle, build dual power, and prepare the working masses for the moment a revolutionary situation arises.
Until that revolutionary situation arrives, there are many approaches to bourgeois elections that align with the writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Winning is of no importance to me.
>>2859589What does that have anything to do with how CPI Marxist governed Kerala or West Bengal or anywhere else?
>>2859590I recall the defeatist rhetoric from years ago, which I also see in other countries, manifesting as abstentionism or voting for the "lesser evil," where people concoct excuses to avoid voting for communists simply because the latter have made mistakes. I realized that this narrative undermines the ability to spread propaganda among those questioning society; instead, they receive a liberal response characterized by apathy or false consciousness, leading them to blame a straw man rather than understanding the society they live in and building the solidarity needed to advance the class struggle.
You could very well organize within a different communist party if you believe the CPI(M) is opportunistic and won't bring about a revolution.
What is the state of the dalits there lately?
>>2859606Or maybe the proletariat has rejected communism because you have no ability to govern or transform anything, have you considered that?
>>2859287Pakistani here. I think both our nations are inherently flawed and our socialist movements have been gutted. At least here we know we're crippled and have learned to live with it. Our only real strategic aim now is to bring our country closer to China. The Indian "left" meanwhile put its faith in the Naxalites and the global academic left and both ultimately turned out to be failures.
>>2859649You are a fucking nuclear armed state, do something with it
>>2859656They’re a nuclear state with a professional intelligence agency. Too bad that it doesn’t outweigh the negative of having a neo-feudal regressive system dominated by landlords and white collar-type petit bourgeois and that it’s this very anti-progressive system that holds the country together. That, and Islam which has become a dominant aspect of Pakistani society ever since the days of Zia’s military junta.
The Pakistani status quo would be disrupted if the country industrialised five years plan-style.
>>2859656America controls Pakistan through its military. When Pakis try to elect even some mild socdem reformist like Imran Khan they just get rekt.
>>2860001Their interests align more often than not, but there have also been significant differences. For exampl for more than 20 years, we openly undermined them in their fight against the Taliban by allowing the Taliban to operate from our territory and by providing them with arms and training.
>>2859656>youI hate nationalists
>>2861912Only to end up losing to the Pakistani taliban
>>2862006You have to understand that, because of the country's history and the narratives it has been built on, the majority of people genuinely believe in the idea of the Ummah crap. They think that once the Taliban establish an Islamic emirate, Pakistan and Afghanistan can coexist peacefully under a shared Islamic identity.
Most people here also genuinely believe that the Pakistani Taliban are funded by India or Israel and that the pressure or attacks coming from the Afghan Taliban are somehow being directed by India. The idea that the Taliban might have their own ethno-nationalist ambitions simply doesn't make sense to many Pakistanis, because Pakistan as a nation was founded on rejecting ethnic nationalism in favor of a broader Muslim identity.
Our textbooks never mention the country's ethnic groups or geography in any meaningful way. Instead it's always "the Muslims did this" or "the Hindus did that"
>>2859240>They get nowhere enough hate as they deserve for what they're doing in Kashmir……trvke, it's insane more people don't know the insane amount of shit the government does to keep their apartheid tier policies from entering english-speaking news
xcv
>>2859649>Our only real strategic aim now is to bring our country closer to China. The Indian "left" meanwhile put its faith in the Naxalites and the global academic left and both ultimately turned out to be failures.you've been doing that for decades and the second you elected The Moderate socdem immediately cucked out of even that, naxalism has unironically done more than you
>>2863160Like I said, we don't pretend to be something we're not. We don't live in illusions or childish fantasies.
>>2862791Literally just yesterday I got into an argument with my brother. His take? "The Gulf states are being manipulated by Israeli and Indian intelligence agencies into turning against Iran. They should be working together as Muslims."
And he isn't some random mullah, he's an Army officer.
I don't even blame him for thinking that, because it's a pillar of Pakistani identity. At least the Arabs when they talk about Israel and Iran working together have some internal logic: they distinguish between their own interests and their enemies. In Pakistan every rift between Muslim countries has to be the work of Mossad, RAW, or the CIA, because the idea that Muslims might disagree on their own is apparently unimaginable.
So, india is an opressor nation?
>>2859287That's Rahul Gandhi, leader of the INC. Funny how he's in Maoist attire even though it was actually the INC that dealt a death blow to CPI (Maoist) in Operation Green Hunt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahul_Gandhi >>2863156Almost all subcontinental shitholes are like this. We all have some or the other separatist movement the public loves to play the victim about while the state inflicts horrors beyond human imagination on them.
>>2862791>>2864127Indian Hindus have very similar retarded beliefs but for our "Dharmic" brothers, namely Sikhs and Buddhists. Most Hindus in India don't even acknowledge the several genocides of Hindus carried out by Buddhists. There's also this inferiority complex that manifests as delusions of grandeur very similar to Pakistan. Like how Pakistan is always obsessed with playing a leading role in the Ummah(TM), India is obsessed with being a Vishwaguru (World Leader). It's laughable how similar India is to Pakistan once you strip away the aesthetic bullshit.
>>2864153Both Pakistan and India basically justify each other's existence. In many ways they're each other's greatest political allies because each can blame the other for separatist movements and internal security issues. If Pakistan and India had been a single country, it might have either federalized much more deeply or fractured into multiple ethnic republics.
What's also ironic is that many Pakistanis use pictures of Pashtuns and Baloch people to argue that Pakistanis and Indians don't look similar, even though those are two groups have the biggest significant separatist movements within Pakistan.
>>2864147>THIS IS THE BEST WE HAVE REEEEEEEnta but no one here said that. Pointing out that it's delusional to believe the Naxalites are about to storm Delhi, or that actually popular communist parties are anything more than local ethno-nationalist movements, doesn't make someone a reactionary.
>>2864155Pretty much. It's the narcissism of small differences that sustains both these shitholes.
>What's also ironic is that many Pakistanis use pictures of Pashtuns and Baloch people to argue that Pakistanis and Indians don't look similarNorth Indians and Pakistanis look pretty much similar across the board. It's just colourist Pakistanis and Indians who like to cherry-pick the white passing people from their country to claim superiority. It's delusional bullshit from both sides, as always.
>>2864163Megupdates is a Hindutvoid Indian account, but nonetheless Emirati racism is still very real. I hate how such a pathetic excuse of a country like UAE has such outsized influence both over India and Pakistan. Hope Iran nukes them, nothing of value will be lost.
>>2864164Some elements of this nationalist narrative always existed, but they were largely confined to regional ethno-nationalist movements, in Sindh and Balochistan. This recent shift toward a broader regional nationalist history seems to be a response to changing circumstances. Most Pakistanis see the Kashmir cause has effectively been lost and it no longer carries the same public appeal. At the same time, Afghanistan is increasingly seen as a more immediate security concern than India, especially because of Afghan nationalist claims over Pakistan's Pashtun majority regions(though many still believe India is backing the Taliban) anti-Afghan sentiment are now a political reality, driven by unchecked migration, militant attacks and drug trafficking. Even my brother whom I mentioned earlier, argues that all Afghans are terrorists and should be deported to Afghanistan, justifying this by claiming they are not "real Muslims," a view that has become increasingly common among some Pakistanis to attack the Taliban.
>>2864165>I hate how such a pathetic excuse of a country like UAE has such outsized influence both over India and PakistanTheir influence in Africa is much worse. Behind multiple genocides.
>>2864176I know. I heard Iran bombing them crippled the RSF. Don't know how true that is.
It would be more interesting to know what went wrong with India’s socialist and communist movements, considering how many India’s liberation movement was made up of leftist groups.
We all know that India’s jump from agrarianism towards white-collar-centred economy without industrialisation, and the licence Raj, undermined India’s economic progress for decades post-1947.
But I want to know what do Marxist experts on Indian economics here think of it, considering how the GDP growth of the country seems to be a statistical mirage due to the presence of the burgeoning informal sector (that mainly employs Dalits) and gig economy that pads India’s economic numbers, and overt financialisation and IT growth which hasn’t led to the massive explosion in jobs that was predicted.
With that said, India really is a shithole. Country can manage to have nukes and a competent glowie org, but still has massive child malnutrition and abysmal living standards for the average sap such that even Indian middle class housing is materially worst than the average Brazilian favela.
>>2864172I think I should clarify my point. The Pakistani narrative is that RAW agents are infiltrating and deceiving the Taliban. A large portion of Pakistanis still support and even romanticize the Taliban. They genuinely don't understand why the Taliban who are now the governing authority in Afghanistan, would want Pakistani territory or attack fellow Muslims. So they assume that the Taliban are just being tricked into taking these actions.
>>2864189> assume that the Taliban are just being tricked into taking these actionsDamn dude, didn't know Pakistanis are this retarded.
>>2864127>At least the Arabs when they talk about Israel and Iran working together have some internal logic: they distinguish between their own interests and their enemies. In Pakistan every rift between Muslim countries has to be the work of Mossad, RAW, or the CIA, because the idea that Muslims might disagree on their own is apparently unimaginable.I think the fall of Assad and Jolani taking power in Syria is an example of this. There were a lot of CIA/Mossad narratives about this here on leftypol that remind me of what you're talking about, not factoring the idea of Sunni Arab interests and doing realpolitik around that as a distinct thing. Not saying any particular position or geopolitical orientation is good, but just as a descriptive statement of what's happening and the logic behind it.
When you do realpolitik you have some differences but you have some areas where you overlap and work to create some kind of balance. For Jolani, getting in with the U.S. makes sense because he gets the sanctions off and gets the electricity working. The U.S. isn't doing this because of some morality play, it wants to turn Syria into a buffer state between Israel and Turkey (which is to the benefit of the U.S. as the hegemon), and has also deduced that the Turkish deep state also sees this as in in their interests. But the Israelis have been too retard stupid to understand this, they have a completely weird paranoia such that Iran was turfed out of Syria, but now
here come the Turks oh my God and there's an Al Qaeda guy running it and their immediate reaction is to escalate against this THREAT. But they don't realize that this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy that will bumble them into a direct conflict with Turkey which is the one country close to them which they really don't want to get into some shit with. I'm convinced Trump and co. sat down with the Israelis are were like you morons don't know what the hell you're doing.
From the Arab perspective, I don't know how much it takes on the form of a conspiracy theory about Israel and Iran working together (because I don't read Arabic and I'm not plugged into how Arabs talk about it that much), but even though Israel and Iran are enemies they do have a shared interest in being able to project power through Syria and Jolani is an obstacle to that, and that weird congruence of interest may be interpreted by some through a conspiracist version.
>>2864282They are about as retarded as most people in third world countries, what's unque to them is they hold an ideological belief that the ummah stands above all else. This is the central foundation on which Pakistan is built and it is seen as something that cannot be compromised. Otherwise, Pakistan would have to redefine itself and confront the very basis of its political existence.
>>2859259yeah both sides are bad: random civilians in kashmir and the indian government
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