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File: 1783614379837-0.png (58.44 KB, 146x137, ppill.PNG)

 

trying to read das but both it and secondary sources take the labor value theory as a 'given'

i saw in a letter by marx he doesnt feel the need to prove it but i rlly dont understand

Here's a playlist by the Marxist economist Paul Cockshott on the LTV. The first video is 'Why labour theory of value is right'. Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emnYMfjYh1Q&list=PLKVcO3co5aCBnDt7k5eU8msX4DhTNUila

>ppill.png

Dont do it anon. The Real Movement needs (You).

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The Labour Theory of Value develops through many thinkers. Marx provides a basic genaeology of it here:
<Petty reduces use-value to labour […] Hobbes […] asserts that the labour which determines exchange-value is the particular kind of concrete labour by which gold and silver is extracted […] Boisguillebert for his part, in fact, although he may not be aware of it, reduces the exchange-value of commodities to labour-time […] Benjamin Franklin […] regards labour-time from a restricted economic standpoint as the measure of value […] Sir James Steuart […] determines real value by labour-time […] Adam Smith declared that the sole source of material wealth or of use-values is labour in general […] David Ricardo […] neatly sets forth the determination of the value of commodities by labour-time
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1859/critique-pol-economy/ch01a.htm
It is only with Adam Smith (1776) that "labour" becomes "abstract" (e.g. generalised) rather than "concrete" (e.g. particular). Thus, all labours are essentially identical as units, so long as they are measured by production time. An example which Smith uses is barter. Person A makes (x) in 2 hours, and Person B makes (y) in 2 hours. They exchange because (x)=(y) in terms of labour time. Thus, exchange is presumed to occur where an equal quantity of labour time between goods is present. Marx takes an example from Aristotle, who uses the same basic logic, and so it can be expressed by a ratio of exchange [x:y].

To begin with Marx's own writing, we see that a product of labour becomes a "commodity" where it has a "use value" and an "exchange value". A use value is whatever makes a thing useful (e.g. quality), while exchange value is what a commodity will exchange for (e.g. quantity). Use values come from "concrete" labour (e.g. weaving, tailoring), and exchange values come from "abstract" labour (e.g. labour in general). Thus, weaving is different from tailoring, but both are still labour in general. Both concrete and abstract labour are expenditures of "labour power" (e.g. labour in potential), as Marx writes:
<all labour is, speaking physiologically, an expenditure of human labour power, and in its character of identical abstract human labour, it creates and forms the value of commodities. On the other hand, all labour is the expenditure of human labour power in a special form and with a definite aim, and in this, its character of concrete useful labour, it produces use values.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
So then, we can simplify this as follows:
  • Commodity = Use-Value + Exchange-Value
  • Use-Value = Qualities of Concrete Labour
  • Value = Quality of Abstract Labour
  • Exchange-Value = Quantities of Abstract Labour
  • Labour-Power = Concrete + Abstract Labour
So, use-value (e.g. utility) can exist without value, but value cannot exist without use-value. Value only has a form of appearance in commodity exchange, and this form is exchange-value. Exchange-value (e.g. magnitude of value) is measured according to "socially necessary labour time" (SNLT), which has its definition here;
<The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value. We see then that that which determines the magnitude of the value of any article is the amount of labour socially necessary, or the labour time socially necessary for its production.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
Marx does not disclose how this is actually calculated, but simply claims that it happens anyway, but Marx does offer some arithmetic in how a sum can be made:
<The value of a commodity, therefore, varies directly as the quantity, and inversely as the productiveness, of the labour incorporated in it. 
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
This can be expressed as duration (d) and intensity (i). Thus, the longer one works, the greater the value of a commodity, but the more productive [intense] the labour, the less the value per commodity. So, it is a division:
  • SNLT = Duration divided by Intensity [d/i]
So, to take Marx's example of the power-loom, the same duration is applied with the hand-loom (e.g. 10 hours), but a greater product is created with the power-loom, or what Marx describes as double the product, or half the value per commodity (e.g. 100 vs 200 products)::
  • Hand-Loom: 10/100 = 0.1
  • Power-Loom: 10/200 = 0.05
Thus, the less labour, the less value, the less price. SNLT then is what determines the exchange value of products to Marx. The less SNLT required per commodity, the less the exchange value will appear between commodities.

As I have said, value (e.g. abstract labour) only appears in the form of commodities, where it is represented as exchange-value (e.g. magnitude of value). Marx writes:
<They manifest themselves therefore as commodities, or have the form of commodities, only in so far as they have two forms, a physical or natural form, and a value form […] The value of commodities is the very opposite of the coarse materiality of their substance, not an atom of matter enters into its composition
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
We see here that a commodity is distinguished in its "natural form" and "value form" similarly to use-value and exchange-value, or concrete and abstract labour. We also see that the value form is immaterial (abstract), while concreteness is natural. So, to simplify this:
  • Commodities = Natural Form + Value Form
  • Natural Form = Concrete Labour (Use-Value)
  • Value Form = Abstract Labour (Value)
We see Marx describe the Value Form in four phases (A-D), which all develop from one another, so we will begin with the first, which is the "Elementary" Value Form (A).

The Elementary Value Form is expressed:
  • x(A) = y(B)
  • 20 Yards of (Linen) = 1 (Coat)
  • 1 (Coat) = 20 Yards of (Linen)
So then, it is a basic sum, like Adam Smith's example. The arithmetic of the sum is developed by Marx, in that each pole of this "value relation" is either Relative, or Equivalent. To simplify, I will give the proper ordering:
  • x(A) = y(B)
  • Relative = Equivalent
  • Natural Form = Value Form
So then, whatever x(A) is equating itself with is the form of equivalence, and whatever y(B) equates is relative. At the same time, x(A) serves as the Natural Form, while y(B) serves as the Value Form, as we read from Marx:
<the bodily form of commodity B becomes the value form of commodity A, or the body of commodity B acts as a mirror to the value of commodity A.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
So then, when two commodities express themselves in this way, the form of value appears as exchange value:
<the value of a commodity obtains independent and definite expression, by taking the form of exchange value […] It never assumes this form when isolated, but only when placed in a value or exchange relation with another commodity of a different kind.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch01.htm
Hopefully this is not too complicated, but to put it most simply, value only appears in commodity exchange, and the form it takes is exchange-value, or the equivalent. Following from this, we move from the Elementary Form (A) to (B), the Expanded Form, which is expressed:
  • z(A) = u(B), or = v(C), or = w(D), etc.
What this expresses is that the relative form: z(A), now has multiple equivalents. This is reversed in the General Form of Value (C), which is expressed contrarily:
  • u(B), or v(C), or w(D), etc. = z(A)
Here, all commodities have a single equivalent form. This then features as the "universal equivalent", which in Form (D) becomes the Money-Form, expressed as:
  • u(B), or v(C), or w(D), etc. = £(x)
Thus, a single commodity (e.g. gold) has been chosen to represent the values of all other commodities, and so we see how the Elementary moves toward Money as so:
  • Elementary Form (A): x(A) = y(B)
  • Expanded Form (B): z(A) = u(B), or = v(C), etc.
  • General Form (C): u(B), or v(C), or w(D), etc. = z(A)
  • Money Form (D): u(B), or v(C), or w(D), etc. = £(x)
A lot of this is mental masturbation. What Marx wants to show is that money as the "universal equivalent" form of value is what all commodities express their value in, and so "price" becomes an expression of value, but only the "natural price" (equilibrium of supply and demand):
<Price, taken by itself, is nothing but the monetary expression of value. […] It suffices to say the if supply and demand equilibrate each other, the market prices of commodities will correspond with their natural prices, that is to say with their values, as determined by the respective quantities of labour required for their production.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/value-price-profit/ch02.htm
So then, the "natural price" of a commodity is equal to its value, given in SNLT, or the cost of its production.

Marx (following Ricardo) makes the inference that the labourer himself, when he is paid a wage, is also selling a commodity, but the commodity is not "labour", but "labour power", or his capacity to work. The wage pays for the cost of production (SNLT) for the labourer, and so like all other commodities, the labourer receives an equivalent value in exchange. There is no exploitation in circulation, but only in production. Production is split between two periods of the working day (e.g. 10 hours), between "necessary labour" (e.g. 5 hours) and "surplus labour" (e.g. 5 hours). Exploitation occurs where one works for longer than he has to, since his own SNLT has been fulfilled by the period. The reason why this is so obscured in exchange is by the wage form of payment:
<In the corvée, the labour of the worker for himself, and his compulsory labour for his lord, differ in space and time in the clearest possible way. In slave labour, even that part of the working-day in which the slave is only replacing the value of his own means of existence, in which, therefore, in fact, he works for himself alone, appears as labour for his master. All the slave’s labour appears as unpaid labour. [8] In wage labour, on the contrary, even surplus-labour, or unpaid labour, appears as paid. There the property-relation conceals the labour of the slave for himself; here the money-relation conceals the unrequited labour of the wage labourer.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch19.htm
In the labour process there are means of production, which are converted to "constant capital" (c) and labour power, which is converted to "variable capital" (v). There are two rates to consider here: the "rate of surplus value" (s/v) and the "rate of profit" (s/c+v). The rate of surplus value is then calculated by (surplus/necessary), which in our example, is a rate of 100% (5/5), while with profit, (c) is added, and so will always be lower than the rate of surplus value. As (c) becomes more expensive, the rate of surplus value will then increase, and the rate of profit will fall. To simplify: Surplus value is created by surplus labour above necessary labour, determined by the working day. The longer the working day, the longer the exploitation. The rate of surplus value generated is always higher than the rate of profit, and as means of production become more expensive, the rate of profit will fall, as the rate of exploitation increases.

In terms of "proof", there are no empirical examples, since Marx was not using an empirical framework, but a logical framework, and it holds basically sound, even to a method of pure deduction. If there was a world strike, where would profits come from? Who would run the machines etc? Regardless, Marx's "Critique of Political Economy" is largely a political polemic, not a textbook (e.g. the slave is compared to the wage slave, so the system of surplus extraction is predominant in all modes of production; it just becomes most "mystified" under capitalist relations). In case you want to know how Marx envisioned his communist society, I would suggest you read "Critique of the Gotha Programme" (1875), linked below. 🙂👍
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/

It's very easy. Any commodity-producing business falls apart without the workers actually producing the commodities. a commodity-producing business does not necessarily fall apart if it has no CEO or board of directors. This is why you can have a worker-owned cooperative like Huawei or Mondragon see huge international success but you will never see a company that is just a CEO and board of directors with no commodity-producing workers have any success in commodity production. A company that is only owners and no workers will never be successful at commodity production, it can however have a lot of success at private equity, serial litigation, mergers/acquisitions, financial speculation, banking, and other capital services.

Does the food grow because a man owns land? No. Food grows because commodity-producing workers go out there in the heat and till soil, plant crops, water crops, fertilize crops, spread manure over crops, use pesticides on crops, harvest crops.

If the man who owns the land, the seed, the grain silos, the fertilizer, the manure, the pesticides, and the tractors makes more money than the people producing the harvest, it is not because he worked harder, but because he owned means of production. To the extent that he contributes at all, he is not contributing to the production of the commodities with his labor power. He is instead deciding what to do with the surplus value: whether to reinvest it or not. How did he acquire those means of production? It doesn't matter. He may have inherited them, he may have stolen them, he may have worked for them. But once he becomes a capitalist, his income is passive, rooted in the labor-power he buys from others, and based on his ownership rather than his contribution to the production of the commodities.

Marx goes out of his way to make this scientific, but it's so obvious even on an intuitive level that only the high priests of bourgeois ideology bother denying it. Even bourgeois economists before Marx like Ben Franklin, Adam Smith, and David Ricardo accepted this fact. It was only bourgeois economics AFTER Marx which felt so threatened by the revolutionary conclusions Marx made that they felt the need to deny and bury this.

Look at a hot dog stand. If the man who owns the hot dog stand is also the one making the hot dogs, he owns his own means of production, and produces his own commodities for sale to pedestrians. But if he simply owned the hot dog stand and did not make any hot dogs, his ownership of the hot dog stand would produce no value. He would either have to start making hot dogs, or hire someone to do it for him. It is the labor of making hot dogs which produces an output commodity (a cooked hot dog on a bun with ketchup and mustard) that sells for higher than the ingredient commodities used to make it. It is not the mere ownership of the hot dog stand which produces value, but the application of labor power to the hot dog stand and the ingredients.

>>2863138
This.

>>2863313
>Labour-Power = Concrete + Abstract Labour
Labor power is a potential, it is not the output of that potential as you have it. And later on you say so yourself:
>the labourer himself, when he is paid a wage, is also selling a commodity, but the commodity is not "labour", but "labour power", or his capacity to work
This is the sort of mushy inconsistent style one can expect from LLM-assisted writing.

>>2864049
>Labor power is a potential, it is not the output of that potential as you have it
Which is what I wrote in my introduction of the concept: >>2863313
<Both concrete and abstract labour are expenditures of "labour power" (e.g. labour in potential)
That's why I provided the direct quotation from Marx.
>mushy inconsistent style
It's entirely consistent, you just skimmed it.


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