So say a Marxist-Leninist economy has all of the stuff important to the state nationalized and operating under scientific planning, it tries to give the basic needs of life like employment and housing to everyone as possible, but there's additionally a private sector for commodity circulation because trying to micromanage every small business to the smallest detail is silly in general. The private sector is heavily regulated to prevent them from subverting the rest of society, and also taxed to help pay for the rest of society.
So what exactly is bad about this generally speaking? Especially on a neoliberal Earth where the international elite, outside of china, can flee and go anywhere and has no accountability? The strategy of dengist economics has produced the same results that people like Mao and Stalin wanted out of their countries like mass industrialization, electrification, and prosperity but at the same time holding their own societal elites accountable.
>>2865198>So what exactly is bad about this generally speaking?accumulation/circulation of capital? wage labor? generalized commodity production (the production and reproduction of labor-power like any other commodity?) existence of the labor market?
<muh elitesnot scientific socialism
>>2865222No one is in a position to just have stores of goods you can grab whenever you want you dumbass Kroptokinite
there are none. all prosperous modern countries are dengist. USA, all of Europe, PRC, etc etc
>>2865223>warehouses don't exist under capitalism actually you can't just get stuff from one storage unit in factthe state of this fucking board
>>2865225So people just work, drop shit off at the general store that anyone can just pick up at any time they want, however much they want with no restrictions, this is what you and every other crypto anarchist wants and will fall apart the first time it encounters someone with hoarding disorder
>>2865228>however much they want with no restrictionsWho said this? A labor-voucher system and bookkeeping of labor-time expedited into production you are entitled to in equivalent goods will be kept you fucking buffoon
>>2865228>So people just work, drop shit off at the general storeWho said this?? There is going to be a plan you fuckass
>>2865231>who said thisKropotkin, your crypto god
>>2865233Plans are too authoritarian for you
>>2865198The major flaw of a dengist economy is that they will no longer fight against capitalism. Any step towards socialism would inflict harm to the economy and be stopped .
>>2865239Why fight against capitalism when you allow capitalism to undermine itself?
>>2865242Becoming the backbone of a worldwide capitalist system is undermining it? Will they destroy it at a certain point?
>>2865244Only capital can kill capital, you just have to facilitate it the way you lead a pig or a cow into a crusher
>>2865244The march of history is inevitable capitalism creates communism just as feudalism created capitalism. Stop being an idealist who think that if one has enough revolution points from indivduals praying hard enough you get to level up magically.
>>2865247>The march of history is inevitable capitalism creates communismIt can also create barbarism
>>2865248That was just political rhetoric from WWI, it’s not scientific
>>2865239It's impossible for China to go full "Communist" because their elite will just flee and starve their country of development and resources like what happened to Venezuela. A socialism based on updated ideals of the USSR can only be continued if the international bourgeoisie becomes weakened and isn't able to just fly from country to country or state to state when they face something as meager as increased taxes
>>2865223>>2865228>>2865231>>2865233None of you read the book.
>The state will be able to wither away completely when society adopts the rule: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", i.e., when people have become so accustomed to observing the fundamental rules of social intercourse and when their labor has become so productive that they will voluntarily work according to their ability. “The narrow horizon of bourgeois law", which compels one to calculate with the heartlessness of a Shylock whether one has not worked half an hour more than anybody else–this narrow horizon will then be left behind. There will then be no need for society, in distributing the products, to regulate the quantity to be received by each; each will take freely “according to his needs".
>From the bourgeois point of view, it is easy to declare that such a social order is “sheer utopia” and to sneer at the socialists for promising everyone the right to receive from society, without any control over the labor of the individual citizen, any quantity of truffles, cars, pianos, etc. Even to this day, most bourgeois “savants” confine themselves to sneering in this way, thereby betraying both their ignorance and their selfish defence of capitalism.
>Ignorance–for it has never entered the head of any socialist to “promise” that the higher phase of the development of communism will arrive; as for the greatest socialists’ forecast that it will arrive, it presupposes not the present ordinary run of people, who, like the seminary students in Pomyalovsky’s stories,[2] are capable of damaging the stocks of public wealth “just for fun", and of demanding the impossible. >>2865254Marx clearly never encountered anyone with a shopping addiction or hoarding disorder, this is Kropotkinite nonsense
>>2865254I'm talking about the dirty-jewish and thisworldly communism (dotp) not ✨ communism ✨
>>2865198When did MLs/Dengism get conflated? I'm old enough to remember when MLs hated China for siding with Amerika and helped destroy the USSR which actually had central planning. Parenti called China neoliberal, for example.
>>2865436Modern mls are campists
>>2865440And marxists are idealists
>>2865198I know this is a bait thread but for those actually curious :
- Because the end-goal of communism is to supplant capitalist commodity relations. Limited markets to alleviate economic pressures are imo fine but their overall existence should not be prolonged.
- Because, as another anon has pointed out, once a bourgeoisie exists, it gets very hard to remove them and your state progressively stops transitionning towards socialism. This is more or less what occurred in China.
>>2865246
>>2865247Capitalism and socialism are not forces of nature. They're living people entertaining specific relations of productions associated to technology etc. The transition will ultimatly depend on people changing things.
The falling rate of profit
>>2865198The one major flaw in Chinese economics is that they make the westoid seethe.
>>2865518By making them infinite labubus and Israeli duel use tech
observe the westoid >2865520
>>2865522China is the west
There's nothing bad about it. You should embrace dirigsme gang
>>2865565Yes. As the USA has.
>>2865565Racist meme, tbh
>>2865518western socdems here love deng, they think he vindicates them
Dengism is good when you can buy off enemy politicians and porkies.
>>2865253>turbo idealism on displayElites 'flee' the country when their job as compradores and facilitators of imperialism is done and any domestic productive forces were crushed by cia funded 'freedom fighters', illegal sanctions and ballistic missles.
>>2865500so chinese porkies found the magic spell that reverses the tendency of the rate of profit to fall?
>>2865198Not enough death and suffering.
>>2865198The Dengist strategy for developing the productive forces isn't just the introduction of a private sector. A key point of the "reform and opening up" programme is the focus on creating an export-oriented economy within a country of the imperial periphery, with the goal of attracting foreign investment from the imperial core by offering cheap labor. The main issue that arises if you want to apply this strategy is that it inevitably results in a loss of independence: the ongoing growth of your industrial base and economy more broadly is dependent for a large part on continued investment and trade with the imperial core. This gives the state less room to maneuver in matters of economic management and international relations, as it cannot risk rocking the boat too much for fear of scaring off investors and trade partners. This naturally also constitutes a glaring weak point for hostile nations, who can try to steer the decisions or otherwise harm the health of the targeted state by way of tariffs and similar measures that disincentivize economic relations with the targeted state. In recent times we have of course seen this with for example Trump's tariff wars. China, for what it's worth, seems eager to patch up this weak point and has been pivoting its industry more and more towards products meant for domestic consumption instead of exports.
Perhaps more insidiously, this also means that this strategy starts to align the interests of the state with those of the capitalist nations, as a great crisis of capitalism leads to less foreign investment and trade, and can thus cause a crash of the domestic economy (a risk which was notably absent in planned economies, as can be seen by the relative prosperity of the USSR during the crash of '29). Through this process, Deng-style economic reforms disincentivize the state from confronting capitalism in any nation but its own, or even incentivize it to act against international anti-capitalist currents so as to preserve the lucrative status quo.
>>2865926Sidenote: this dynamic can be seen perhaps most clearly in the current situation for Vietnam, which lacks the relative economic and political independence of China and was thus heavily impacted by the tariffs put in place/threatened by Trump. This then further incentivized the Vietnamese state to grovel at the feet of the US, most recently by joining in on the ethnic cleansing of Gaza through its membership in the genocidal Board of Peace organization.
>>2865198Deng saved Chinese proletariat from ultra retards crashing the economy with no survivors. Billions must live.
The flaw is that capitalism will be the death of us all, no matter who wields it
>>2865931>>2865926thruthbomb, vietnam porky infested and controlled party deserved to be executed. they let trump build a golf course on their own land and removed peoples graves for that, fucking cucks
>>2866524even the albanians have done more protests
>>2865198Crisis of overproduction
The question is not if dengism good or bad. Rather, it is if there was any alternative road to supremacy against USA capitalists other than succdem dengism, because it is simply impossible to achieve communism without eliminating USA first
>>2867041 (me)
Just to spell it out to all leftcoms, hardcore maoists, trots, and the like, the good old austere but good china could be easily destroyed by USA. A comparably more powerful state could be dealt with, the USSR, at the time, even though USA is only partially responsible. This is an inevitability, only a matter of time. China or any socialist dtate had to introduct into critical production chains, gain some sort of leverage, and eventually defeat, or face extinction. We can talk about hundreds of years, thousands, but it would eventually happen by logic.
So, if dengism is the only way, then good, but the question is, how to overturn succdem and steer to communism after USA defeated? But this is already an abstract question, an almost metaphysical one, because it has nothing to do with present conditions.
If there was an alternative, then which one? But this is itself another abstract metaphysical question, an exercise of alternative history without any importance for present day praxis, pure speculation.
The only true moove is to patiently and ascetically study chinas history and present structure, as well as of capitalism in general, UK and USA imperialism, the history of the USSR… Study patiently everything and forget about this sort of useless speculative bullshit.
>>2867041>>2867046you are completely cucked, so cucked you can't even stand with your own people you'll instead hail the coming of the new empire and then do nothing about it when they end up raping the world just like the rest of the faggots who end up being the dominant super power of the world. will it be better in the short term? sure but american supremacy was an upgrade from the european dominion over asia as well and that doesn't mean its something worth defending
>>2867053I didn't position myself in favor, I only said that the question was not dengism good or bad, but the other ones, and then the other ones end up being too abstract, which in turn leads always to the same answer, the only good answer:
To deeply and ascetically undertake a lifelong study of the concrete conditions, both global and local in your area of possible and optimal pragmatic action
>>2865242Bernsteinite babble
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