/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

you also forgot modern day neoliberalism! The war on drugs! Terrorism! The iranian revolution!!!

>>2870223
>Before our societies obviously weren't "secular", but religion was much more rooted in local cultures, regional history and different traditions. A lot of what people now present as Islam(that has always existed) really comes out of the Sahwa movement of the
some examples, my dad told me that my grandparents used to keep these folk charms around their house. It wasn't until a mullah on TV repeatedly said that having such charms was haram that they got rid of them. One time, my mother gave me an amulet that had belonged to my maternal grandfather. I wore it for a while but one of my cousins gave me a hard time, saying I was committing shirk and even got my parents to agree with it, so I stopped wearing it. It's funny to think these were basically traditional Islamic folk practices that ended up being replaced by a modernist interpretation of Islam.

>>2870223
I remember there was a site called something like "what happened in the 1970s" that detailed a bunch of negative social trends that started in the early 1970s. I can't find it now tho. You just reminded me of it.

The postwar boom ended.
The gold window closed.
Old mechanisms of crisis management stopped working. Leading to wage suppression, credit expansion, fictitious capital, managed devaluation, foreign trade, and the cheapening of constant capital.

https://damnjehu.substack.com/p/the-terminal-phase-how-the-state

>>2870237
we got hotpants

>>2870223
This is true for all times. The "conservatives" of any age aren't really about "preserving tradition" (which doesn't really exist, since everything is always changing) but about RETVRNING to the youth of their grandfathers.

>>2870237
Eradication and homogenization of folk religion is a fairly old trend, that seems to have ramped up following colonialism and continues to intensify even today. I can't help but feel the propagation of this type of legalism also coincides with a decline in religious high-culture, because most sources of tradition appear to have been stripped down in favor of creating more effective ideological weaponry. Ultimately the vatican is as anomalous an institution in the modern religio-political landscape as a siberian shaman.

>>2870271
This one? https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

>>2870237
A friend of mine used to find those eye beads stitched into his clothes by his mother to ward of the evil eye, but he too thinks they are shirk. I think he's also fallen prey a bit to the more streamlined conservative Islam that is also pushed online by those Dawah bro types.

>>2870416
I prefer to call it modernist Islam rather than conservative Islam, because it is neither traditional nor conservative.

>>2870359
Honestly, I'd almost respect them if they genuinely LARPed the politics of 1950s conservatives. Instead they seem to want the aesthetics of the 50s combined with libertarianism and the raunch culture of the 90s and 2000's.

Things can change in a generation. Christian women in the West used to wear head veils in the early 20th century, but now its seen as a remnant of medieval times. History reveals the contingency of so many of our customs. Football, for example, was only established from 1863 onwards, but it seems so foundational to global identity and custom. A world without football seems inconceivable.

Even before that, a lot of our ideas about history and culture, that seem almost ubiquitous or natural are just some shit a bunch of eurpean autists got really excited about in the 1800s. Im reminded of some british guys going to Greece in their independence wars in the 1820s, trying to recite homer in ancient greek to them n stuff and the greeks at the time being like wtf is he talking about?

>>2870649
I'm aware of the inventions and developments of the 19th and early 20th centuries but they were still relatively local. It was specifically in the 1970s that so many modern ideas, ideologies and even religious traditions were either born or significantly reshaped and were purported as ancient. picrel is a traditional Día de los Muertos festival, when it was originally a localized version of all saints day and was widely understood as such, most of the elements people now associate with it, claiming some pre-Columbian history and elaborate skull face paints, were actually popularized in urban Chicano communities in the United States with the style later spreading into Mexico, beginning you guessed it, in the 1970s.

>>2870646
This isn't a good picture. In fact it actually aids Islamists. Women in Iran (outside of the westernized elite) generally didn't wear Western clothing either, but the full-body niqab is a modernist development. Most women in Iran dressed more like this, they still covered their heads but their clothing was more practical for work and everyday life.

>>2870668
Fair enough, it was the advent of the pretty much global neoliberal reforms anyways. It makes sense these kinds of things can be traced back to that time. I was just saying it's been happening for a while, 1970's is just the latest and most definitive culmination of it

>>2870416
The thing about "dawah bro" types is that they're obviously shaped by liberal capitalist modernity, from their style and rhetoric to the assumptions behind their worldview, yet they seem completely unaware of it. Their whole persona is a blend of urban black American and South-Asian/Jamaican UK diaspora aesthetics and many of their pseudo-intellectual talking points.
If I were an Islamist, someone who genuinely wanted Islam and Muslims to become a great global civilization, I’d be furious. Cause these people have absorbed almost every negative aspect of the modern West while having no real religious philosophy or intellectual tradition, beyond parroting whatever Saudi sheikhs tell them is right.

>>2871111
I feel like they have to be aware of it in some way, but they're just hypocrites, they want no women's rights but for men to still get to be totally 'degenerate' and modernist

>>2870669
Recently I was reading about Arwa al-Sulayhi who was the queen of Yemen from 1067 to 1138. Turns out Islam was sometimes pretty progressive in middle ages.

>>2871121
The key is understanding that there are many Islam's, just as there are many Christianity's. These are not merely sectarian differences but materially distinct historical realities. The Islam of the early Umayyads(which seems to have framed the religion of the believers as emerging from a tradition closely connected to Christianity) was nothing like the Islam of the Abbasids, where a distinct religious identity had been established, with a ethnic hierarchy and familial hereditary privilege. Both of these Islam's were in turn nothing like the Islam of the Ottomans, whose religious and political tradition was far more Persianized than Arab based.

>>2871249
>>2871121
It makes you wonder, Since so much of their religious framework comes from Salafi preachers, what happens when those same preachers come under pressure from increasingly less religious Gulf monarchies? Take Assim al-Hakeem, one of the most popular online Muslim preachers today. He's based in Jeddah and arguably one reason he's remained alive is his strong support for the Saudi monarchy. He has even said that opposing the Saudi rulers is un-Islamic. So if MBS has policies like allowing alcohol sales or hosting large-scale entertainment events and raves, figures like al-Hakeem may end up having to defend or justify those changes. I could see a similar dynamic playing out across the rest of the Gulf as well.

>>2871249
I feel like of all religions Islam is probably the clearest in giving you the answers (whether they are correct is not really relevant) on how to live your life piously, unlike Christianity where one book of the bible will say this and the other will say that. So how do you still manage to get all these different variants even within the big sects, especially historically? Is it because of the Hadiths? I saw some scholar say that since in the early days the people collecting and researching (there's a name for this practice I think but I forgot) were all in the employ of the state the alleged acts of the prophet that did not conform to the wishes of the nobility were simply ignored and those that did of course promoted much more. You can also just lie about the religion to the mass of illiterate peasants under your dominion, of course, but I assume there were clerics who genuinely engaged with the religion, unlike rulers who might only be interested in using it to legitimize their rule, so it would have to make some sense.

I've also recently seen cases of Muslims rejecting the entirety of the Hadith and simply following the Quran, as it is the untainted word of God unlike the acts of the Prophet that were recorded by man.

>>2870399
>https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
Yep that's it thx.

>>2871265
The writing down and canonization of the hadiths took place during the Abbasid era and their historicity is dubious. Certain hadiths are considered more valid on account of bloodlines, for example if someone was a close companion of the Prophet, then his nephew's grandson's account of him is often considered more accurate. Shia hadiths meanwhile were far more spiritual and esoteric.
Anyway, yes, the hadiths did give Islam more cohesion and a general idea of what to do, but most people literally had no access to them. Random peasants had their own bizarre rituals and methods.Ibn Battuta and many other Muslim travelers, who constantly describe other Muslim communities as practicing Islam "incorrectly." They mention groups with distinctive hairstyles, communities that believed snake bites would be miraculously cured through faith and so on.
The Quranist trend is relatively recent (I tried being one for a while), but without the hadiths you have no real idea of what Islam can be. You basically have to create your own sect from scratch because the Quran commands you to pray but doesn't describe the method and it calls for Hajj but doesn't explain the form that everyone follows.

>>2871268
>“I don’t believe we shall ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, that is, we can’t take it violently out of the hands of government, all we can do is by some sly roundabout way introduce something that they can’t stop.” – F.A. Hayek 1984

bruh

it doesnt even say what he thinks caused it

>>2870644
I'm not going to say that I would ever respect them, but I would find them more consistent if they actually championed the economic policies of the trad 1950s. Those policies included strong social welfare programs, public health initiatives and investments in education(though all within the framework of a market economy) Hell a few people connected to the Truman administration even had roots in socialist organizations or were influenced by socialist ideas at some point. But instead these dipshits always seem to gravitate toward libertarian bullshit.

>>2871402
Fun fact Union membership in the United States peaked during the 1950s(the era these guys cream over(, the dad from leave it Beaver was probably in a union)

>>2870223
The Sahwa isn't a single movement and it has nothing to do with Gulf money. The Sahwa refers to a revival of interest in Islam that began in the 60s and 70s. This happened globally, often in a very regional and localized ways, and while the Gulf countries did pour money to exporting their doctrines, they were hardly the only revival movement at the time. Christian Evangelicalism is centuries old and while there was a boom in modern Evangelicalism in the 60s and 70s, not all Evangelicals are remotely alike.

>>2870399
>>2870642
Colonialsm did radically change native cultural practices but the idea that there's a folk Islam vs a legalist "orthodox" Islam is itself a colonial/orientalist idea.

>>2871111
Islamic modernism does have oddly colonial elements e.g. the idea that intercession at saint shrines or talismanic writing are shirk because "dead people can't hear prayers" dovetails neatly with the secular idea that death is a final end, that the world is an inanimate object ready for manipulation by rationalists, God is wholly other or non-present in the world, therefore socially irrelevant to state and capital etc.

>>2871249
The problem with the "many Islams" argument is that if there are many separate things that are called "Islam" and they share nothing but the label, than "Islam" as a category dissolves into nothing. How would we analyze it then? I'd also say these folk Islam vs high Islam, Arab Islam vs Persian Islam etc. is reductive and neo-orientalist (explains distinctions in terms of race) and ignores the widespread continuity to these things. The Indian reformer Ahmad Raza Khan likened Islam to a garden that's constantly expanding, new things are added to it, others are removed, and there's a debate about what belongs etc. its an expanding tradition and the way it shifts and changes depends on local context. Instances of the same framework.

>>2871265
I'd say there's more confusion among Muslims because of the lack of a church and the principal of ikhtilaf which enshrined respect for disagreement. Differences emerge because people disagree on interpretation. This isn't a flaw, its a creative tension. There's also methodological differences in how they interpret texts, differences over what counts as scripture (which hadiths are authentic), and partisan biases where people retroactively pander to established opinions in their particular in-group.

>>2871336
The problem with saying the historicity of the hadiths is dubious is it brings up the question of who's yardstick of historicity are we using? The traditional Sunni ulema always believed that only a tiny handful of hadiths were 100% correct and the rest possess a lower percentage of authenticity. Nevertheless, you have to use them because otherwise the entire Quran can be read out of context and there's no guidance on practical issues like prayer etc. and no people did have literary access to them because hadiths were widely circulated orally among common people, a factor that contributed to debates over which hadith were or weren't authentic. I wouldn't say the hadith books Shia use are more esoteric.

>>2871402
Once they saw blacks might also benefit they cut their faces off to save face by rolling everything back. Well at least that is what those peckerwoods were told when their wealthy masters lost an extra penny a year.

>>2871952
>folk Islam vs a legalist "orthodox" Islam is itself a colonial/orientalist idea.
The well-known European orientalist Ibn Battuta, his entire orientalist acount is simply an example of European ignorance about Islam. All the bizarre sects he described were clearly a colonialist imagination.
>ignores the widespread continuity to these things
Literally, only insecure South Asian and African Muslims believe that.

>>2871952
I did some googling around and this is the scholar I was talking about in relation to the political nature of Hadith transmittal in case you're interested. The bit I saw was longer and more in depth but whatever. Here's his wikipedia page too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Abou_El_Fadl

>>2872007
t. not the sundowntownerinos

>>2870223
All Italian food that Italians like to jerk off about being sacred and tradition came around in the 60s or in the late 1800s/early 1900s from america

>>2872284
Damn right fuck those motherfuckers

>>2872009
Ibn Battuta might have contested various popular practices (and these practices in turn had their defenders), but he didn't distinguish between two oppositional forms of Islam, folk and high legalist Islam, which are presumed to be locked in conflict or mutually irreconcilable. In fact, he doesn't even do so in the passage you cite. Nowhere in the lexicon of classical scholars was such a neologism as "folk Islam," a concept pretty much abandoned by anthropologists of Islam in the late 80s. The fragmentary nature of Islamic law enables for 1. flourishing of lots of idiosyncratic and local practices irrespective of school or sect 2. constant debate over the legitimacy of those practices, both for and against. In any case, local "folk" practices and Islamic jurisprudence bleed into each other constantly e.g. a seemingly folk practice like talismanic writing is usually defended by its proponents with arguments built on Islamic law, references to Quran and Hadith, and scholars who support it.

>>2872253
I don't doubt that there are motivations that shape how hadith have been pushed. At the same time, remember that Abou el Fadl is himself a staunch opponent of Saudi Wahabi/Salafism and the Muslim Brotherhood and somewhat of a liberal conservative who positions himself as offering a modern but still traditional form of Islam, one that's rationalist, humanist etc. So we should take his claims with a grain of salt, not because he's a bad person, but he has a theological agenda, which is perfectly fine. Saudi Wahabis/Salafis among other groups are known for bombarding their opponents with hadiths to try to paint their opponents as not only wrong but heretical, and the way Abou el Fadl responds to that is by telling us a large number of these hadiths have been fabricated.

>>2872376
My relatives, literally until the 1960s, never cut the hair on their heads (similar to the Sikhs) because they believed cutting hair was a sin and that we should keep our hair like Muhammad. We only corrected ourselves to what we considered real Islam around that time. What the hell do you call that other than folk Islam?

>>2872416
>never cut the hair on their heads (similar to the Sikhs) because they believed cutting hair was a sin
> What the hell do you call that other than folk Islam?
Samsonite Islam

>>2872425
ChapoTrapHouse humor.

>>2870668
Kinda related, but I grew up seeing a lot of Chicanos in the 2000s and I remember there being a much bigger emphasis on the "Latin" aspect of the identity. I'm talking about guys with tattoos of the Virgin Mary and Cortez. The closest thing you could argue had an Indigenous element was the aesthetic emphasis on skulls, but even that was probably more influenced by Catholic memento mori aesthetics.
It wasn't until around the 2010s that there seemed to be a shift in the narrative away from the broader Latin identity and toward an Aztec identity. And even then, it wasn't really about Indigenous cultures in general or the Maya or other Indigenous civilizations, it was almost always the Aztecs, and only the Aztecs.

>>2870359
This reminds me of the argument that ᴉuᴉlossnW and Hitler are not conservative because they were forming new traditions based off ancient history and resented the weakness of their grandparents for creating conditions that lead to decline

>>2870345
>The postwar boom ended.
I'm not very well-versed in American economics, but were things really that bad? I mean, I'd wager the ecnomy wsa still vastly better than they are today.

The beginnings of raunch culture also emerged around that time. while there were predecessors, they were mostly confined to underground circles and weren't considered part of mainstream. It was really around the 70s that you started seeing big-budget, commercially successful movies where being a perverted degenerate was openly celebrated. If anyone criticized that kind of behavior, they were dismissed as a no-fun commie, Nazi, Puritan.

It's easy to mock the more militant feminists of that era, but considering how much vulgarity had become normalized and celebrated, I can at least understand why some of them reacted the way they did. Even if I don't agree with all of their views.

>>2875244
In a relative sense the economy was pretty good, but was faced with a number of structural problems which impeded the growth of capital. The capitalists responded with programs to eliminate the government management of the economy and intensifying class warfare. The Powell Memo is a hallmark of this reactionary turn and is seen by some as the starting gun for the capitalists to "take their country back."

>>2875250
>The beginnings of raunch culture also emerged around that time. while there were predecessors, they were mostly confined to underground circles and weren't considered part of mainstream. It was really around the 70s that you started seeing big-budget, commercially successful movies where being a perverted degenerate was openly celebrated. If anyone criticized that kind of behavior, they were dismissed as a no-fun commie, Nazi, Puritan.
Eh, i would say this goes back further in time, look at rock and roll culture.

>>2875326
People have always been raunchy. There isn't a single period of time in all of human history or prehistory where people haven't been raunchy. The Epic of Gilgamesh has an extended interlude where the wild man Enkidu has sex with a temple prostitute for two weeks straight. There are cave paintings where people are depicted with huge, obvious, comedic boners. It's always been a thing and always will be.

>>2875334
Okay but we're clearly talking about american cultural production not cavemen painting on walls.

>>2875334
What the other anon said. Also, I don't know if you're a zoomer or not, but I don't think you understand how misogynistic raunch culture used to be. A lot of the annoying feminists out types complained about were reacting against that. I'm talking about dozens of big budget movies eyes year where young women were routinely humiliated and sexualized, then paired with unattractive male protagonists. That was a standard formula for nearly 50 years.
As I've gotten older, I've become more sympathetic to feminists. I still think the movement would benefit from embracing socialism and being less individualistic, but I understand where it comes from.

>>2875397
He and you are both retardedly myopic.

>>2875416
I'm not against sexuality or romance in media, but I do think a healthier approach benefits both men and women. You can tell romantic stories featuring attractive people or more average-looking people without reducing everything to depraved fetishes. There's a big difference between portraying romance or attraction and promoting a raunch ideal that basically encourages men to act like perverts.

Bad weed, good blow and good acid decent music too
Dont forget queludes

>>2875693
shit, shit, shit and more shit