The most sobering part about revolution is knowing that common people cant do shit against a government unless the military or police defect or unless they have massive outside support in terms of funds, arms and training and even then they need broad popular support. This is the reason that if any country today went overtly fascist the individual will have absolutely no agency in deciding their own fate unless they flee the country beforehand and if the country in question is a global power not even that qill save you. If the state is after you, you cant fight, you cant run and you cant hide. They will get you where ever the fuck you go and you cant even hide a single second of your life from them if they decide to go after you with the ir resources. Every single one of us is literal property of the government and you not experiencing death/torture/mutilation/inprisonment/rape and much more is the mercy of those that rule you. Soon we will have mind control and quantum computing so not even your thoughts will be sacred anymore. Nothing you own including your rights, possesions and even body is truly safe. The day you realize this is the day you grow up and become depressed like a real adult.
>>2873165>This is the reason that if any country today went overtly fascist stopped reading there, nothing ever happens
>>2873165If they perceive you as any real threat the glowies could just target you with the cancer ray gun
Niga we are way past that. Now they would literally blow your brains out in the middle of a busy street because they have grown secure in knowing the public no longer giving a shit about the government doing terrible shit
>>2873184Meant for>>2873181
>Indiviually
yes we cannot do much
>collectively
we can do a lot
2020, jan 6, general strikes, etc show proof that as collectives indiviuals without millitary or foregin backing can still resist.
>>2873221Those were both controlled operations
>>2873228What does that change unless you think every single people there were FBI agents?
>>2873228doesnt matter and it looks like they went pretty rogue if they were attempting to kill government officials and destroying economic growth
I'm already there buddy
>>2873263I wish. But if wishes were fishes.
>>2873256>>2873248All part of the show to keep you engaged
>Soon we will have mind control and quantum computing so not even your thoughts will be sacred anymore.
Inside my brain a voice will just be screaming 'STOP EATING THE LEGOS!'
before the nano-immune response kicks in and I seize up from nerve toxin.
>>2873165>>2873178Both of you are wrong. I get It's annoying when Western leftist lose hope and start acting like it's over and the world is ending because their ideal revolution didn't happen. But the "nothing ever happens" crowd are even worse. Things are constantly happening, there are so many crises unfolding just right now. Neither group is serious about politics, they're both just indulging in moronic fantasies.
>The most sobering part about revolution is knowing that common people cant do shit against a government unless the military or police defect
>Sobering
Drunken fool
>>2873324When are you going to learn that crises are why capitalism thrives? They won’t be its downfall
>>2873332They will also be partly why it falls. Capitalism can never resolve its contradictions in full.
>>2873336It doesn’t have to, you can always keep kicking the can down the road, doing controlled demolitions of physical capital, and finding a new speculative bubble.
>>2873332Listen, I get it. Western leftist going “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them” can be really, really cringeand gay. But saying that “nothing ever happens” is objectively a wrong take. I don’t know if you live in the West, but your country is radically different from what it was a decade ago. Maybe if you’re a NEET who’s completely disconnected from society, it feels like nothing is changing, but according to my cousins who live in the UK, things are getting worse and worse.
Housing crises, migration crisis, the cost of living, these are all real issues. That said anyone who thinks this is going to lead to a full communist revolution is being incredibly naive. Most likely you’ll probably see some form of Caudilloism and or a shift toward more state intervention.
>>2873348All that’s going to happen is the former first world will become the new imperial periphery until QOL and wages are so low that they take resource extraction and agricultural jobs the way the current third world does, you can industrialize, deindustrialize, and keep moving the imperial capital around forever. Proles don’t want communism, that’s far too much responsibility.
>>2873343>It doesn’t have toThe endless greed, the ever increasing stupidity of the bourgeoisie, and the constant build up of damage and decay patched up only by band-aids and unintentionally permanent temporary solutions will never allow such eternity to come to pass.
>>2873362There is no damage or decay because capital isn’t human nor is it controlled by humans, least of all by capitalists themselves
>>2873365See what I mean? Drunken. A denial of capitalist entropy and class rule? Utterly drunken.
>>2873369Capital isn’t physical, it can have physical manifestations but isn’t physical itself, thus is not subject to the laws of physics or entropy
>>2873324>there are so many crises unfolding just right nowso? thats just how the current mode of production operates, its all business as usual
>>2873375Prices of commodities going up isn’t a crisis, what are you gonna do? Not buy groceries?
>>2873383Read Jacques Camatte
>>2873402I don’t see you engaging with his arguments
>>2873221>Jan 6bro they were white trump supporters 😭😭 if communists had tried to take over the capitol they would've been massacred
>>2873407I don’t particularly care for the arguments of Jacques “I have no enemies” Camatte. Too much coal.
>>2873409Your acting like a communist would ever try anything like that.
>>2873419I love when we just pretend that there has never been a communist revolution. want to say all commies are actually 12 now? that's usually the next talking point you people spew. then after that we can talk about the 300 bajillion people they killed.
>>2873348>Maybe if you’re a NEET who’s completely disconnected from society, it feels like nothing is changing, but according to my cousins who live in the UK, things are getting worse and worse. things getting worse and worse has been happening since forever, its the status quo, I would think things are changing if things were getting better
>>2873416I accept your concession
>>2873451You lost marxoid, just take the L and leave, the proletariat doesn’t want you, they want capital
>>2873455What about public transportation?
>>287345580% of Chinese support their government compared to 30% of Americans.
>>2873463100% of both their populations support their government, both are the puppets of capital, the proletariat loves its domestication, it loves capital the way your dog or cat loves you
>>2873459Racial and sexual minorities use those and therefore are tainted
>>2873467>the way your dog or cat loves youCats hate their owners.
>>2873423What the fuck are you talking about? No one is talking about the Bolsheviks or the CCP. We're talking about post-WW2 western communists, and yes you haven't done jack shit.
>>2873535Because there isn’t jack shit to do numbnuts
>>2873548You are literally claiming the legacy of the Russian and Chinese communists
>>2873165You are wrong. Your duty as a communist is to prepare the conditions for a revolutionary situation by building dual power and organizing the workers for their class interests, with the proletarian class being the revolutionary agent and having a revolutionary socialist party for the supremacy of the proletariat that is independent of the bourgeoisie. If the workers are not prepared and organized for a revolution, then there will be no revolution in a revolutionary situation.
As the bourgeois state collapses along with its institutions, there will be desertion of soldiers to the workers' self-defense committee (Red Guard) and the Red Army that will form, so any melancholy of yours is merely that of an ignorant person who believes in superstitions about the state.
The state is not a neutral entity and it cannot have any opportunity to subdue the workers. Scientific socialism and revolutionary socialism are incompatible with any demand to empower the bourgeois state to repress the workers and take away their independence so that the proletarian class cannot organize, arm itself, and seize power to disarm the bourgeois class and its agents.
Let us look at quotes from Lenin regarding the arming of workers and the disarming of the bourgeoisie and its agents:
<Avowed opportunism is openly and directly opposed to revolution and to incipient revolutionary movements and outbursts. It is in direct alliance with the governments, varied as the forms of this alliance may be—from accepting ministerial posts to participation in the war industries committees (in Russia).[3] The masked opportunists, the Kautskyites, are much more harmful and dangerous to the labor movement, because they hide their advocacy of alliance with the former under a cloak of plausible, pseudo-“Marxist” catchwords and pacifist slogans. The fight against both these forms of prevailing opportunism must be conducted in all fields of proletarian politics: parliament, the trade unions, strikes, the armed forces, etc. The main distinguishing feature of both these forms of prevailing opportunism is the concrete question of the connection between the present war and revolution, and the other concrete questions of revolution, and the other concrete questions of revolution, are hushed up, concealed, or treated with an eye to police prohibitions. And this despite the fact that before the war the connection between this impending war and the proletarian revolution was emphasized innumerable times, both unofficially and officially in the Basle Manifesto.[4] The main defect of the disarmament demand is its evasion of all the concrete questions of revolution. Or do the advocates of disarmament stand for an altogether new kind of revolution, unarmed revolution?[…]
<On the question of a militia, we should say: We are not in favor of a bourgeois militia; we are in favor only of a proletarian militia. Therefore, “not a penny, not a man”, not only for a standing army, but even for a bourgeois militia, even in countries like the United States, or Switzerland, Norway, etc. The more so that in the freest republican countries (e.g., Switzerland) we see that the militia is being increasingly Prussianized, particularly in 1907 and 1911, and prostituted by being used against strikers. We can demand popular election of officers, abolition of all military law, equal rights for foreign and native-born workers (a point particularly important for those imperialist states which, like Switzerland, are more and more blatantly exploiting larger numbers of foreign workers, while denying them all rights). Further, we can demand the right of every hundred, say, inhabitants of a given country to form voluntary military-training associations, with free election of instructors paid by the state, etc. Only under these conditions could the proletariat acquire military training for itself and not for its slaveowners; and the need for such training is imperatively dictated by the interests of the proletariat. The Russian revolution showed that every success of the revolutionary movement, even a partial success like the seizure of a certain city, a certain factory town, or winning over a certain section of the army, inevitably compels the victorious proletariat to carry out just such a programme.
<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1916, The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution: IIIhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/miliprog/iii.htmI will add another quote that proves my point in practice with Lenin:
<The party of the proletariat cannot rest content with a bourgeois parliamentary democratic republic, which throughout the world preserves and strives to perpetuate the monarchist instruments for the oppression of the masses, namely, the police, the standing army, and the privileged bureaucracy.
<The party fights for a more democratic workers’ and peasants’ republic, in which the police and the standing army will be abolished and replaced by the universally armed people, by a people’s militia; all officials will be not only elective, but also subject to recall at any time upon the demand of a majority of the electors; all officials, without exception, will be paid at a rate not exceeding the average wage of a competent worker; parliamentary representative institutions will be gradually replaced by Soviets of people’s representatives (from various classes and professions, or from various localities), functioning as both legislative and executive bodies.[…]
<12) The police and standing army to be replaced by the universally armed people; workers and other employees to receive regular wages from the capitalists for the time devoted to public service in the people’s militia.
<V. I. Lenin, 1917, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programmehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm >>2873643Not that anon, but you're not making things any better. Quoting Lenin like it's scripture isn't going to fix anything. We have to be realistic about the times we live in. We can't LARP as Soviets, that said I agree that believing nothing will ever change is just as pointless and wrong. The liberal capitalist order will eventually collapse, but realistically it probably isn't going to be replaced by communism. It's more likely to give way to some form of local strongman rule.
>>2873618There is not now, nor has there ever been a communist. Those people you’re talking about did bourgeois revolution in the periphery where feudalism held out longest, that’s a good and necessary thing but it’s not communism. What happened was as capitalism developed it stripped the proletariat of reasons to organize against it, made it antisocial through customer relations, suburbanization, artificially high wages, and artificially cheap commodities. The result you get is an entirely domesticated and imperialist population addicted to the money cycle.
>>2873673Western leftist moment.
>>2873683China doesn’t care about you, they’re already the new treats empire
>>2873653 So we should what? roll over the guys trading with israel and giving weapons to the uae?
>>2873653Wrong. I am not afraid of the use of so-called authoritarianism, the use of revolutionary terror, spreading chaos, or recognizing that workers will make sacrifices in the class struggle; death or suffering is irrelevant to me, only the supremacy of the proletarian class matters.
Marx and Engels do not have different positions from what I wrote in their political programs:
<4. Universal arming of the people. In future armies shall at the same time be workers’ armies so that the armed forces will not only consume, as in the past, but produce even more than it costs to maintain them.
<Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels March, 1848, Demands of the Communist Party in Germanyhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/03/24.htm
<The French socialist workers, in adopting as the aim of their efforts the political and economic expropriation of the capitalist class and the return to community of all the means of production, have decided, as a means of organization and struggle, to enter the elections with the following immediate demands:
<A. Political Section[…]
<4. Abolition of standing armies and the general arming of the people;<5. The Commune to be master of its administration and its police.
<Karl Marx and Jules Guesde, 1880, The Programme of the Parti Ouvrierhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htmThe advancement of the class struggle and pushing the bourgeois state to its limit so that it enters into crisis is what is important to me; your sentimentalism is merely liberal and reactionary cowardice.
>>2873683No amount of seething at the frankfurt school is going to change the fact that no advanced capitalist society ever experienced proletarian revolution. The bourgeois figured out how to manage crises and will continue to do so, capital as an actual God rolls along.
>>2873688The proletariat is not willing to fight or die on what is ultimately a gamble with their lives. Unless you make it a money gamble, which you can’t, they’ll never be on board.
>>2873694Your words mean nothing to me. All the Marxist texts by Marx, Engels, and Lenin are on my side, backed by the practical proof of carrying out a revolution; furthermore, the opinions of unorganized workers are irrelevant to me. As the class struggle intensifies—along with the bourgeoisie's hatred toward the workers—no one will have a choice; I do not fantasize about spontaneity, for it is the vanguard that will guide the workers to organize so that the proletariat may seize power. I am not opposed to using any method of coercion or intimidation to force those who reject the new social order to fight; eventually, maintaining illusions will become impossible, and I do not care what obstacles must be eliminated for the proletariat to achieve political supremacy—no matter how outraged you may feel.
Your words mean nothing, as you offer no citations to back them up—only the sentimental drivel of a coward who will be re-educated or eliminated along the way.
>>2873706You’re a crypto Christian, revolution has never taken place anywhere with the mass adoption of the television let alone the smartphone
>>2873687>>2873688This is what I mean when I say you guys are just as pathetic as the pol types. Living in delusion and LARPing and pretending some pure Marxist movement exists. We in the Third World have to live in the real world and do what we actually can. organize aid, support our communities and try to move our government closer to China. That's all we can do.
>>2873706LARPing Dork
>>2873716China is going to inherit the US empire exactly as the US inherited the British empire and be compelled by Capital to do the same things but worse, you can resist that about as much as you can resist gravity.
>>2873716>This is what I mean when I say you guys are just as pathetic as the pol types. Living in delusion and LARPing and pretending some pure Marxist movement exists. We in the Third World have to live in the real world and do what we actually can. organize aid, support our communities and try to move our government closer to China. That's all we can do.So you're ignorant. I'm from the Third World and I know what needs to be done for communists to gain power by advancing the class struggle. I'm also not against using state capitalism as a tool to bring the bourgeois state into crisis, acquire economic sovereignty to facilitate the socialization of the economy, and prepare workers' self-defense committees for a revolutionary situation.
I follow the principles of scientific socialism and I don't tolerate betrayal of any of these principles. I'm just pragmatic in using tools before a revolutionary situation to spread propaganda and radicalize the working population so that the fog of bourgeois illusions disappears from the masses.
I am not against communists in a party independent of the bourgeoisie for the political supremacy of the proletariat to put forward a political program during a bourgeois election.
Here's an example of one:
<The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
<Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
<These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
<Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
<1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.<2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.<3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.<4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.<5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.<6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.<7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.<8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.<9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.<10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
<When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
<In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848)https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htmHere's another one after the publication of Capital Volume I and the Paris Commune:
<1. One rest day each week or legal ban on employers imposing work more than six days out of seven. - Legal reduction of the working day to eight hours for adults. - A ban on children under fourteen years working in private workshops; and, between fourteen and sixteen years, reduction of the working day from eight to six hours;<2. Protective supervision of apprentices by the workers' organizations;<3. Legal minimum wage, determined each year according to the local price of food, by a workers' statistical commission;<4. Legal prohibition of bosses employing foreign workers at a wage less than that of French workers;<5. Equal pay for equal work, for workers of both sexes;<6. Scientific and professional instruction of all children, with their maintenance the responsibility of society, represented by the state and the Commune;<7. Responsibility of society for the old and the disabled;<8. Prohibition of all interference by employers in the administration of workers' friendly societies, provident societies, etc., which are returned to the exclusive control of the workers;<9. Responsibility of the bosses in the matter of accidents, guaranteed by a security paid by the employer into the workers' funds, and in proportion to the number of workers employed and the danger that the industry presents;<10. Intervention by the workers in the special regulations of the various workshops; an end to the right usurped by the bosses to impose any penalty on their workers in the form of fines or withholding of wages (decree by the Commune of 27 April 1871);<11. Annulment of all the contracts that have alienated public property (banks, railways, mines, etc.), and the exploitation of all state-owned workshops to be entrusted to the workers who work there;<12. Abolition of all indirect taxes and transformation of all direct taxes into a progressive tax on incomes over 3,000 francs. Suppression of all inheritance on a collateral line [8] and of all direct inheritance over 20,000 francs.
<Karl Marx and Jules Guesde, 1880, The Programme of the Parti Ouvrierhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm >>2873716> try to move our government closer to China. That's all we can doI disagree with that. Where I live, they are building a data center in a semi-arid area that is both drought-prone and indigenous land.
>>2873732Westoid projection
A bunch of doomer slop. Value chains have immense length and complexity in today's imperialist world economy. They are less plastic than a 100 years ago. Imperialists are mostly deindustrialized. The state is not as omnipotent as you think.
>>2873974The fact that the imperial core is deindustrialized actually makes direct action harder since the place of work is largely immaterial and doesn't hault the production of commodities as such only services which would cause a delay in the chain of wealth extraction not a fundamental stoppage at the root provided that the capitalists can find scabs which can be done quite easily considering how digitalised infrastructure has become that remote work from home has become a reality.
>>2873388>Read Jacques Camatteany text in specific?
>>2873706Dude, you live in fucking theory land, you have no capacity to actually play a meaningful part in a revolution. Have you ever gotten into a fist fight in your entire life? Ever shot a gun? Are you physically active? You realize that revolutions are carried out by soldiers and not nerds who read books all day, right? Besides, no one in the real world gives a fuck about how much Marx, Engels, or Lenin you know. It's actually really fucking embarrassing seeing privileged western leftists whose entire lives have been totally pampered think they have the capacity to commit violence or participate in what would be a literal fucking civil war. Get real, please.
>>2875017What is your "hire me as a revolutionary" resumé?
>>2875017Wrong. Soldiers begin to desert when the bourgeois state is in crisis—during a revolutionary situation that drives it to collapse. Prior to this, the vanguard has already guided workers in building popular councils and a workers' Red Guard; this Guard will absorb many of the deserting soldiers to form the Red Army. So, the specific mindset of the soldiers beforehand is irrelevant; by pushing the bourgeois state to the breaking point of collapse, the entire hierarchy of the standing army will disintegrate. There is no need to appeal to soldiers based on some idealistic fantasy; simply championing economic sovereignty, anti-imperialism, the socialization of the economy, and the democratization of the military—organizing it into elective popular councils so that soldiers are not separated or alienated from the proletariat—is enough to throw the bourgeois state into chaos. How many must die or be sacrificed is irrelevant to me; only the supremacy of the proletarian class—to socialize the economy and abolish social classes—matters.
Everything I have written was put into practice during the revolutions that successfully established the dictatorship of the proletariat, and that is enough for me.
I am not from the imperialist core; I have never lived in the First World. You are merely trying to use guilt to co-opt the masses in the imperialist core, fostering apathy and discouraging them from desiring power; you will be punished as a counter-revolutionary if you do not cease your opportunistic actions.
popular revolution is a brute force move and in the modern age it's just not feasible under a wealthy and powerful and well-established regime. if you want to truly fuck over the system you'll have to be far more creative than that.
>>2875779Being a defense contractor and scamming the government as much as possible
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