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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Today most legal systems nominally reject collective punishment, emphasizing individual responsibility. It is also prohibited in armed conflict under international humanitarian law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention. This was not always the case. The Athenian Draco is remembered for harsh laws, from which we get the word "Draconian" but one of his major reforms was to replace private blood feuds with state-administered justice. Before his code, killings were often avenged by the victim's family, leading to cycles of retaliation.

The shift from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt toward individual responsibility and the presumption of innocence was gradual rather than revolutionary. In many ancient and medieval societies, families, clans, villages, or entire communities could be held liable for the actions of one member, and accused individuals often had to prove their innocence through oaths, ordeals, or social standing. These proofs were often ritual in nature and lacked scientific rigor. Over centuries, especially under the influence of Roman legal principles, canon law, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and liberal constitutionalism, legal systems increasingly emphasized that guilt should be based on evidence against a specific individual rather than group affiliation. Thinkers such as Beccaria and Blackstone argued that protecting the innocent from wrongful punishment was more important than maximizing convictions, leading to higher standards of proof, formal rules of evidence, due process, and the modern principle that the prosecution bears the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite these legal prohibitions, governments and armed groups have at times been accused of imposing measures that amount to collective punishment, especially during wars, occupations, and counterinsurgency campaigns. Whether a specific case qualifies is often legally and politically disputed.

The transformation from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt to individual liability and the presumption of innocence was driven largely by changes in state capacity and legal administration. As governments became stronger, more centralized, and more bureaucratic, they relied less on kinship groups to police their own members and more on professional courts, investigators, and judges. Improved record-keeping, forensic methods, written legal codes, and standardized procedures made it increasingly feasible (but not necessarily easy) to determine who actually committed an offense, reducing the perceived need to punish families or communities collectively. At the same time, expanding commerce and more diverse populations required legal systems that were universalist in nature, and treated strangers as individuals under uniform rules rather than as second class citizens, gradually making individualized justice and procedural safeguards the foundation of modern law.

From a class and economic perspective, the shift from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt to individual responsibility can be understood as a consequence of the rise of market economies and capitalist social relations. Collective liability was well suited to feudal and kin-based societies, where obligations were shared by households, villages, and estates, but it impeded commerce by making contracts and property rights unpredictable. As merchants, urban aristocracy, and later industrial capitalists gained influence, they demanded legal systems that treated people as autonomous individuals capable of owning property, entering contracts, and being held liable only for their own actions. The resulting legal order replaced inherited collective responsibility with individualized rights and duties, not simply out of humanitarian concern, but because wage labor, private property, investment, and impersonal markets functioned more efficiently when legal responsibility was attached to discrete individuals rather than families, classes, or communities.

However, there is a problem which persists. Engels' concept of "social murder" refers to the idea that when a social and economic system predictably produces premature death through poverty, unsafe working conditions, malnutrition, or inadequate housing, those deaths are not mere accidents but the foreseeable consequences of institutional arrangements. Under this interpretation, responsibility is diffuse rather than individualized: no single capitalist or official commits murder in the ordinary legal sense, but the ruling class collectively maintains a system whose predictable effects include preventable deaths. Should the ruling class be collectively punished for this crime, potentially undermining or reversing the the historical changes described above? Furthermore, are not the proletariat themselves being collectively punished by the bourgeoisie for the crime of being poor?

One could argue that this represents a functional return of collective punishment, despite the formal triumph of individualized criminal law. Modern legal systems generally reject punishing innocent individuals for another person's crimes, yet they often tolerate economic institutions that systematically expose entire classes to greater risks of illness, violence, and early death based on their socioeconomic position. In that sense, the poor may experience harms not because of anything they individually did, but because they belong to a structurally disadvantaged class. The "punishment" is not imposed by a judge but by social and economic arrangements.

Bourgeois apologists argue that collective punishment involves intentionally imposing penalties on innocent people for the actions of others, whereas poverty-related harms arise from impersonal market processes, policy tradeoffs, historical contingencies, or individual choices rather than a deliberate punitive intent. From this perspective, calling these outcomes "collective punishment" obscures important distinctions between legal sanctions and structural inequality.

>>2879129
>emphasized
American spelling. You are American. You are Zionist. You are Epstein. You will be collectively punished. You will not worm your way out of this, American.

Was it "wrong" for the USSR to de-Germanize Kaliningrad? For Poland to de-Germanize Pomerania? No one would say that, because it's well understood that collective national punishment is indeed wholly justified, because these sorts of crimes are committed by whole nations.

>>2879142
Collective punishment is what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank. Does might really make right? Should entire populations really be punished? Even if you can grope for some "based" versions of this happening historically I will never agree with it. Individual guilt, trial by jury and presumption of innocence were huge historical advancements that people fought for centuries to have. The fact that these aren't applied consistently or fairly is no reason to revert to collective punishment, presumption of guilt, and other ancient norms.

>>2879142
Is that really collective punishment or is it just pretty basic self defense during a war

File: 1785263601455-9.jpg (20.26 KB, 439x455, images(235).jpg)

>>2879129
Theres no reason to support collective punishment ever only reactionaries do.
The bourgouise can have their power removed and their property redistributed end of story thus making them no longer bourgouise.

>>2879185
trvke from the toker

It's not an issue of punishing the bourgeoisie but rather making a determined decision to put a stop to the system that produces these things. They need a punishment for taking part collectively in certain actions but that's more like how every gang has collective crimes, not just punishing them for being bourgeois

Before continuing, we must first define concepts of law and "crime". As you say, law is an individual affair which progresses as property relations progress; here, law can then be understood as laws of property rights. What are crimes, for example? Rape, murder, theft. In each, there is a violation of permission for the use of one's property; thus we say that a person "takes" another's life. Murder is then a type of theft, and this is how it's written about.

We see in the oldest law codes that each crime has a penalty, and so what is taken relies on giving back what was taken. In the Levitical law, "an eye for an eye" makes law a function of equality. Beyond this simple reciprocity is also the valuation of property. We see in ancient law codes, a price set on crimes for compensation - wergild (blood money) is practiced in many cultures, even in the Quran, that where you kill a man, you may repay a family for compensation. At this point, life has a price, and so is the basic slave market. We see in Sumerian codes, a lesser price set upon a slave's murder than a free man's. Thus, law becomes a function of valuation in general, so is always bound to a calculation of property. As society becomes richer, laws often decline in severity, showing that where there is wealth to spare, social "debt" is more trivial. Thus, the law is largely an economic construct.

Now, in terms of "social murder", this itself is a claim of right not to be murdered, and so a claim of right to one's property. Engels in his "Outlines" (1843) argues that the labourer suffers no theft of property in surplus value:
<The axioms which qualify as robbery the landowner’s method of deriving an income – namely, that each has a right to the product of his labour, or that no one shall reap where he has not sown – are not advanced by us.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/outlines.htm
If all rights are property rights, and all property is private, then the claims of labour over capital must be advanced from the Lockean principle (e.g. that property is created by one's labour). Denying this leads to confusion, mostly due to the fact that self-defense (e.g. the basis of right) no longer has justification. Why ought a person defend himself from another if he has no right? Albert Camus in The Rebel (1951) sees self-defense as the site of one's freedom by "metaphysical rebellion", based in property. The alternative is to say "might makes right". Rousseau properly attests that so long as there is might, there can be no right. Appropriation and rightful appropriation are different things. So then, all rights are property rights.

The point in elucidating this is that the cause against a class must not be against their property, but for one's own. Revolution conceived of as self-defense conceives of itself as rightful (e.g. the consent of the governed). So, class war cannot be negative, but positive, of one's own claim to his wealth (e.g. Lassalle). The Marxist then fails to justify revolution, since he fights against property itself, while the cause of property rights assures one's possession over what belongs to him.

So then, why is social murder wrong? It must denote the theft of another's life - but who is guilty? Such is as you enquire. Robert Owen saw that all individual crime is a result of social causes; effectively making retribution an impossibility, for all men share in each other's guilt. This is a problem with "social" crimes. Engels in identifying "society" as a murderer clarifies his meaning (1845):
<When as here and elsewhere I speak of society as a responsible whole, having rights and duties, I mean, of course, the ruling power of society, the class which at present holds social and political control, and bears, therefore, the responsibility for the condition of those to whom it grants no share in such control.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm
Engels then gives a basic demand (1845):
<Let the ruling class see to it that these frightful conditions are ameliorated, or let it surrender the administration of the common interests to the labouring-class […] The English bourgeoisie has but one choice, either to continue its rule under the unanswerable charge of murder and in spite of this charge, or to abdicate in favour of the labouring-class.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm
If Engels wrote that the ruling classes ought to return the confiscated property of labourers back to them, this would be a legal claim, but Engels fails to elaborate so, by misunderstanding the meaning of murder. So then, I am sceptical of the idea of "social" crimes themselves, since property is not socially possessed.

>>2879152
I didn't know WWII ended in 1950

>>2879144
>Collective punishment is what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank
no? israel is a settler colonialist state. meanwhile when we destroy israel and return the stolen land to the palestinians that WILL be collective punishment and it will be glorious

>>2879295
>return the stolen land
No such thing under communism.

>>2879302
land that belongs to a people collectively is not private property zionist

>>2879308
Itll belong to the israeli people aswell it.
Communism will abolish distinctions such as jewish or palestinians and settler.

>>2879312
maybe in your fantasies of a world revolutions it will

>>2879314
Thanks for admitting youre not a communist.

>>2879318
you are right i am not a communist because i live in the real world where in the west where capitalism was the most developed we didnt have a magical fantasy scenario where everyone united and had a hecking wholesome revolution, instead we had fucking fascism and hitler and now our civilization is on the verge of collapse, but it is like i am in the matrix or something because i am surrounded by people that act as though we are still in the third international or some shit so world revolution where national and religious boundaries all magically vanish and there will be no more school either hahahaha wow

>>2879329
is this what is called a "crash-out"?

>>2879251
ever heard of the cold war

>>2879295
>it's only collective punishment when the good guys do it
>the bad guys are incapable of carrying out collective punishment

oh you're playing a language game here. I think you're confused because if you carefully read the OP they have defined collective punishment in such a way that it does not matter who is doing it. you meanwhile have defined it in a different way where it does matter who is doing it. so you're talking about two different things but pretending it's the same thing.


>>2879144
>Individual guilt, trial by jury and presumption of innocence were huge historical advancements that people fought for centuries to have. The fact that these aren't applied consistently or fairly is no reason to revert to collective punishment, presumption of guilt, and other ancient norms.
(notice how anon ignored this part of my post entirely) and instead did this gay thing where he redefined the term "collective punishment" to mean good guys punishing bad guys or whatever other superhero movie fantasies he has and not actually reckoning with the development of these systems in history. it's like he just thought "collective punishment? I'm an edgelord and that sounds based! I want to be associated with it. Since collective punishment is based, I have to define it in such a way that it's physically impossible for bad guys to do it."

>>2879353
the problem isnt that israelis are the "bad guys", it is that they just straight up kicked out a population that had always been on that land and even descended from native jews living there. where is the punishment there? do you think the atheistic zionists who found israel cared at all about the actions of the palestinian people or do you think they just went to israel because the religious mythology tied to it was rhetorically expedient? it was all pure cynical ethnocentric self-interest, and they barely even let on any pretension that they were there to punish everyone. every time they defend zionism it is to guilt people about the holocaust and how they dont want that to happen again. so no zionism is no collective punishment, even within the zionist's own consciousness for the most part

>>2879375
also adding on, the israeli govt is not bombing gaza because of hamas either. that is just a pretext! they have been planning on this genocide for decades! to dress it up as just another case as collective punishment just buys into zionist lies. whats next, are you going to say that the israel-palestine is just religious shitflinging or something? just lol

>>2879361
>saying that nazis are 'bad' is superhero thinking
sure

>>2879428
not the argument being made at all dude. you gotta be trolling. do you think people can't scroll up?

>>2879375
>it is that they just straight up kicked out a population that had always been on that land and even descended from native jews living there. where is the punishment there?
how is that not collective punishment. you seem to think collective punishment only applies to situations where everyone is actually guilty of some wrongdoing but the whole point made by OP and others is that collective punishment was slowly replaced by different paradigms historically because it is a stupid and barbaric system that usually punishes innocents for crimes they either didn't commit or crimes which didn't even exist in the first place. I can think of no better contemporary example of collective punishment than the collective punishment of palestinians. if you think they aren't being collectively punished, then why? it doesn't matter that they didn't do anything wrong, collective punishment almost always goes after people who didn't do anything wrong. that's the whole point. it's guilt by association and/or complete fabrication.

>>2879452
they not only didnt do anything individually wrong, they didnt do anything COLLECTIVELY wrong (neither currently nor historically) and zionists do not care whether or not palestinians collectively did anything, they just want the land. to describe the situation as "collective punishment" is disingenuous

"collective punishment" is inherently really dumb and hasn't ever done so much good to point where it's justifiable

>>2879460
you are inherently dumb liberal. collective punishment is the most ontologically legitimate form of punishment as every individual is a mere local manifestation of the socius. the prevalence of school shooters in amerikkka is a manifestation of a deeper sickness that has EVERYONE affected and americans should seriously rethink the foundations upon which their society is built. but because you are all so alienated you do not understand how stupid your worldview is. if a piraha murdered another piraha that would be an unspeakable monstrosity that would represent the heavens themselves crashing down, meanwhile in our pederastic civilization we just take murders and such for granted and ascribe it to the individual, but we never take any collective responsibility for it and seriously critique what is wrong with US that this event happened. whatever i am just sounding like a crazy person now

>>2879459
> to describe the situation as "collective punishment" is disingenuous
only if you think collective punishment is proof of collective guilt, which critics of collective punishment argue it is not and never has been. this has been stated several times in this conversation.

>>2879463
>you are inherently dumb liberal. collective punishment is the most ontologically legitimate form of punishment as every individual is a mere local manifestation of the socius.
so if there is a village, and the males in the village commit a massacre on the neighboring village, the women and babies from the village which committed the massacre are collectively guilty of that?

>>2879463
Examples of actual collective punishment:

  • Sanctions against Russia
  • Sanctions against DPRK
  • Embargo against Cuba
  • Sanctions against Iran
  • Sanctions against Venezuela
  • Haiti being forced to pay reparations for almost 2 centuries for its slave revolt


You will say these aren't collective punishment because no crime has been committed. My point is that we live under a imperialist global dictatorship, and to the imperialist bourgeoisie, anything which challenges them is considered a crime.

>>2879463
>collective punishment is the most ontologically legitimate form of punishment as every individual is a mere local manifestation of the socius
if your brother murders somebody tomorrow, are you responsible for what he did?

File: 1785283349299-2.png (56.01 KB, 260x407, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2879463
>the prevalence of school shooters in amerikkka is a manifestation of a deeper sickness that has EVERYONE affected and americans should seriously rethink the foundations upon which their society is built. but because you are all so alienated you do not understand how stupid your worldview is. if a piraha murdered another piraha that would be an unspeakable monstrosity that would represent the heavens themselves crashing down, meanwhile in our pederastic civilization we just take murders and such for granted and ascribe it to the individual, but we never take any collective responsibility for it and seriously critique what is wrong with US that this event happened. whatever i am just sounding like a crazy person now
a society taking collective responsibility for its systemic issues and trying to fix them is a good thing and not at all what is meant by "collective punishment." Collective punishment is usually something like pic related

>>2879493
Ah yes, societal wide phenomenon are just as inexplicable as some unforeseeable drunken or psychopathic killing.
Yes. This is MARXISM.

Anti-collective guilt is just liberalism. Marxism understands national culture is shared by the NATION to great extent. In fact, even liberals can understand this, this is why they demand war reparation, strategic bombing, etc. The great French Revolutionaries devised a plan to raze Lyon in 1793. If even liberals can understand the Atomic Bombs to be just, why can't you? You, who are supposedly less tied to liberal individualism as they are.
Actually Existing Socialism has objectively enshrined national Collective Punishment in its most celebrated victory, you can reject this, but if you do so, you are rejecting Marxism. Just admit that. At least be honest.
Yes, it was GOOD to deport the Nazi-collaborator peoples from their Soviet Republics.

>>2879481
>>2879493
yes.

>>2879483
those sanctions are again pretexts for maintaining capitalist hegemony. i guess liberals see it is as collective punishment because they believe in cia propaganda and i guess you do too!

>>2879497
i was going to say maybe this was a form of collective punishment (just a stupid one that would not be in proportion to the severity of the crime) but then i realized that this was nazi occupied serbia aka within the context of lebensraum. in other words this was another pretext for mass extermination that was planned years in advance. what the fuck do you just believe every surface level justification?

>>2879517
tsmt im tired of leftists unable to move past their latent liberalism. so many people think it is fine for people to reap COLLECTIVE REWARDS from their position as citizens within the imperial core. they get to live in their decadent social democrat bubbles voting for mamdani to give them treats unjustly afforded by superprofits, BUT WHEN IT COMES TIME TO REAP IN THEIR COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT, suddenly it is about individual innocence. it is a travesty, i tell ya that much, and needless to say the soviets did absolutely nothing wrong

>>2879529
>nazi occupied serbia aka within the context of lebensraum
Lebensraum was planned for Poland and the USSR until the A-A Line, not Serbia.

>>2879529
The soviets dissolved themselves and that's because they didn't punish the nationaloids enough especially the russians thoughbeit

>>2879532
just like israel was originally planned for palestine and then they started talking about a "greater israel project". the initial plans were never the point. the point was settler colonialism and imperialism. if they can advance their sphere of domination they would do it as it was never based upon some deeper legitimacy but a cynical attempt at securing ethnic supremacy

>>2879533
ok true they did do this wrong. the ussr required its own cultural revolution, an incandescent internal collective punishment, a greater jihad

>>2879529
>yes.
Well that's bonkers but thank you for being honest. I don't think you would be guilty of what your brother did, or that the babies in the village would be guilty of what their fathers did. That is a very strange and bronze age way of thinking. The whole point of this thread is I see this kind of old testament abrahamic thinking on the left a lot, and it seems they are reinventing collective punishment and inherited sin in the name of repudiating liberalism. But liberalism does not and should not have a monopoly on things like presumption of innocence, trial by jury, individual accountability, etc.
>>2879529
>those sanctions are again pretexts for maintaining capitalist hegemony. i guess liberals see it is as collective punishment because they believe in cia propaganda and i guess you do too!
but "collective punishment" as a term does not necessarily always refer to situations in which a group of people are punished for something which they are actually guilty of. it refers usually to situations where a population is being punished for something their oppressors imagined them to have done. However I included these sanctions as an example because I figured they might be illustrative. In this case, the oppressed nations really were "guilty" of the "crime" (note the scare quotes) of fighting or at the very least resisting imperialist hegemony. And in the case of the Haitians, they really were "guilty" of killing their masters and liberating themselves. This is a good thing of course, not a bad thing. The problem is, the people who are currently in power in a global bourgeois dictatorship see it as a "crime" worthy of collective punishment. Are you still confused? Do I need to explain it a 5th time?
>>2879529
>i was going to say maybe this was a form of collective punishment (just a stupid one that would not be in proportion to the severity of the crime) but then i realized that this was nazi occupied serbia aka within the context of lebensraum. in other words this was another pretext for mass extermination that was planned years in advance. what the fuck do you just believe every surface level justification?
Calling it collective punishment does not rule out that the justification was surface level or even fake. I already said this earlier in the conversation multiple times. I am beginning to think you either are playing dumb or not reading.

>>2879533
>The soviets dissolved themselves and that's because they didn't punish the nationaloids enough especially the russians thoughbeit
the CPSU dissolved the USSR against the will of the majority in each SSR because they did not have party discipline and they did not use the mechanisms Lenin put in place to expel revisionists. People like Yakoklev and Gorbachev would never have been able to gain influence in the early party.

>>2879517
>Anti-collective guilt is just liberalism.
Pro-collective-guilt is just Bronze Age Mindset.
>even liberals can understand this, this is why they demand war reparation, strategic bombing, etc.
so liberals are in favor of collective punishment of anti-imperialists for the crime of being anti imperialist, which is exactly what OP is saying.

>>2879129
>Collective punishment is…LE BAD
Shut the fuck up Cucktin.

It's gonna be real funny to see leftoids """"""""communists"""""" crash out when the actual communist revolution happens and all their favorite nation-states and religions like China, North Korea, Iran and Islam are abolished and everyone becomes atheist and free to move anywhere.

>>2879129
Speaking of collective punishment, I wasn't sorry the pride parade got rammed in Germany. Years ago I would have condemned it but these Germans have spent years backing Israeli genocide in Palestine with weapons and diplomatic cover. To be quite frank, they got what they deserved. You can't go around killing people in foreign countries and expect to get away with it, that it won't come back to haunt you. Is this collective punishment? After all, they were just ordinary Germans. I don't feel good about it but I'm not shedding tears over their deaths. They got what they deserved.

>>2880566
>all their favorite nation-states and religions like China, North Korea, Iran and Islam are abolished and everyone becomes atheist and free to move anywhere.
what you're describing is a process that will likely take centuries. Also I'm pretty sure North Korea and China are already Atheist states.

<Will it be possible for private property to be abolished at one stroke? No, no more than existing forces of production can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. In all probability, the proletarian revolution will transform existing society gradually and will be able to abolish private property only when the means of production are available in sufficient quantity.


  • Friedrich Engels, Principles of Communism, 1847


>>2880879
>Speaking of collective punishment, I wasn't sorry the pride parade got rammed in Germany. Years ago I would have condemned it but these Germans have spent years backing Israeli genocide in Palestine with weapons and diplomatic cover. To be quite frank, they got what they deserved. You can't go around killing people in foreign countries and expect to get away with it, that it won't come back to haunt you. Is this collective punishment? After all, they were just ordinary Germans. I don't feel good about it but I'm not shedding tears over their deaths. They got what they deserved.

You don't feel good about it but they got what they deserved? Sounds like you feel good about it. Anyway I'm pretty sure the German government makes more sense as a target than a random pride parade. But you are on the tor node and probably a mossad agent baiting gay westoids into believing that they will live under le Sharia law if they don't send a trillion more dollars to jizzrael right now.

>>2880879
Those people in the pride parade had nothing to do with imperialism. It's the bourgeoisie and the government that should be blamed for that.

And Isreal isn't actually friendly with gays, trust me, they are just as rabid about wanting to get ride of gays just as much as any Wahhabist. The Abrahamic Religions should be abolished and gotten rid of as the Bronze Age cults that they are.

>>2880914
>And Isreal isn't actually friendly with gays, trust me
when will we get over this nonsensical view that homosexuality has any sort of inherent antagonism to imperialism?

>>2880914
>The Abrahamic Religions should be abolished
agreed
>and gotten rid of as the Bronze Age cults that they are.
off topic but none of the abrahamic religions are actually from the bronze age (3000 BCE - 1200 BCE). Judaism was still Canaanite polytheism until the iron age (1200 BCE - 550 BCE), the exodus myth is Yahwist revisionism. Christianity comes from the classical era after the iron age (550 BCE - 500 CE). Islam comes from the post-classical era (500 CE - 1450 CE).

>>2880919
it has neither inherent antagonism nor inherent support for imperialism and you seem to have amnesia that this part of the conversation began with someone celebrating an attack on a pride parade as somehow "inherently" anti imperialist.

>>2880921
Based fact checker

>>2880921
a guy who actually knows about how these religions were founded? my goodness

File: 1785437514402-2.mp4 (4.5 MB, 720x1280, l8h707aM_4WQUrIm.mp4)

>>2879576
we are just looping. let me just give you two simple examples using the paradigm of individual punishment so you can understand what is wrong with your argument

if someone gets accused and punished for a crime they did not do and become liable in a court of law, you would say that this is wrong. would this be an argument against individual punishment? no, that would be absurd, as the application was inappropriate, and so using this as an example is absurd

moreover if a government accuses a political enemy of something and does a sham trial so that they are found guilty and punished, would that be an argument for individual punishment? no, not only do we have a misapplication, but we it is also very clear that the "punishment" is not even the actual intention of the government. what is their real intention is some cynical political gain. this makes the example double absurd

>Well that's bonkers

i feel like with the brother's one it should be obvious why family members should be capable of being held partially responsible, as it was the household that raised him to be the way that he is. if it is your brother, you obviously have a connection to him. you are not just two atoms floating around in empty social space. likewise, if men of a village start a massacre, then the conditions for their violence must be found within the conditions of the village itself, both material and cultural. any woman or child inherits those conditions that produced and could likely reproduce this same event

>>2880566
the "abolition" (in german it is sublation) of the state isnt some magical voluntary thing that happens instantaneously, and communism is not going to level all cultural and national (there is a difference between nation-states and nations of people) differences as that is just further magical thinking

>>2880919 sexuality is apolitical

>>2880946
>for individual punishment?
*against individual punishment?

>>2880947
this but unironically in post-feudal society.

>>2880946
>i feel like with the brother's one it should be obvious why family members should be capable of being held partially responsible, as it was the household that raised him to be the way that he is.
may you never have to suffer living with a family member who causes problems for you and your whole family, and does not want to be be helped or fixed no matter how many times the family attempts to help or fix him.

>>2880898
>You don't feel good about it but they got what they deserved?
I don't feel happy when I see Israelis get bombed either but I don't feel sorry for them. They made their stew and now they have to eat it.

>>2880914
>Those people in the pride parade had nothing to do with imperialism.
They are tax paying German citizens. Where does their tax money go? You see more in protest in Germany over the ramming of a pride parade than the bombing of a girls school in Iran that killed hundreds of people. I'm not shedding a tear for them.

>And Isreal isn't actually friendly with gays, trust me, they are just as rabid about wanting to get ride of gays just as much as any Wahhabist

This is just a cop out. We don't have to address the homonationalism if we just claim Israel is homophobic ackschually and Abrahamic religions are responsible when it was secular/atheist Western colonizers who created this shit world in the first place. When leftists rant about Abrahamic religions are they really any different to the French colonial elite who blamed every problem under the sun on Abrahamic religion and painted their own ideas (nothing but a Christian heresy) as the solution to mankind's problems? Really its a sign of weakness, internet leftists are inept and can't even protest anymore so might as well rant about religion online.

File: 1785530211645-0.png (22.99 KB, 355x331, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2880879
>Speaking of collective punishment, I wasn't sorry the pride parade got rammed in Germany. Years ago I would have condemned it but these Germans have spent years backing Israeli genocide in Palestine with weapons and diplomatic cover. To be quite frank, they got what they deserved.

that was done by ISIS who are glowies and friends of Israel. you glow.

>>2881600
so let me get this straight, tor baiter,

  • a LGBT pride parade "deserved" to get rammed in an adventurist act of random terrorism by a right wing salafist-sunni ISIS guy who had nothing to do with Iran because the citizens of Germany in general (whether or not they are LGBT) did not protest hard enough against what Americans are doing in Iran?


That doesn't make any sense unless you are so high on clash of civilizations BS that you can no longer see the ground

>>2879134
These words made me hard to be honest comrade.

Great post dude, but personally I'd say we'd need to employ a hardline policy, with there being few exceptions to the rule.

Let’s just have everyone in jail forever, it’s the ultimate collective punishment and we’re all the same species

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>>2879134
>show up to thread
>ctrl+f "ize"
>don't read rest

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>>2884067
trvth nvke. all humans r guilty fr fr

>>2879129
Bet this guy is still crying about haiti too
Who cares?

>>2881792
>ISIS are friends of Israel
Yeah keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. People claiming ISIS is really a puppet of the Mossad is pure cope.

>a LGBT pride parade "deserved" to get rammed in an adventurist act of random terrorism by a right wing salafist-sunni ISIS guy who had nothing to do with Iran because the citizens of Germany in general (whether or not they are LGBT) did not protest hard enough against what Americans are doing in Iran?

Let me put it this way, you can't sanction crimes across the world, facilitate those crimes, provide cover for genocide, supply a genocidal regime etc. and then not expect the chickens to come home to roost. Well the chickens came home to roost alright and all this whining about right wing Salafis and LGBT rights completely ignores that one big ugly fact. ISIS retards aren't ramming pride parades in Jamaica. This is all obfuscation to hide the fact Germany instigated this, brought this violence down upon itself. Turning it into a pride issue is ignoring the real context: ISIS retards attack to revenge mass killings and genocide in the Middle East, without which there would be no ISIS to begin with. Germany is playing the victim card when its actually a perpetrator of shit so bad ISIS couldn't hope to copy it even those idiots tried.

Justice doesn't exist and punishment should be abolished

collective punishment is the only kind of punishment that really works. kids learn this in grade school when they have teachers who punish the whole class for one kid fucking up and then the troublemarker is hated by the rest of the class instead of validated for being a cool edgy rebel. there's a reason why collective punishment is pretty much standard practice in high-control environments like the military or prisons or religious cults, because it's the most effective way to keep a large group of people in line and erode their sense of individuality.

>>2884207
It also breeds resentment. That policy being useed by the nazis was the main driving force behind the partisan movements in europe.

>>2879576

Just want to point out that this poster implicitly assumes in his description collective punishment a few things:

  1. That the associates of the direct perpetrator of a crime need necessarily be punished or made to make recompense in the exact same way as the perpetrator (false, as other posters have pointed out, the german populations in the east were deported, not killed in battle, executed, etc. like the nazi armies or officials; Moreover people put in camps and anti-nazi collaborators were given exemptions from exodus)

  2. That there are no collective punishment aspects to modern legal systems, even those occur under liberal regimes (eg. accessories before, during or after the fact; Failure to report criminal activity also sometimes face charges, depending on jurisdiction, activity in question, & other circumstances.)

  3. That having procedural trials, requirements of evidence, etc. couldn't be combined with collective punishment.

  4. That collective punishments have to applied across the board for all crimes.

>>2880566

Yeah I don't know about that. Even under communism, restrictions will need to apply to (including, but not limited to):

  1. Moving plants, animals, insects, etc. across large distances to regions were they are bot native.

  2. Moving people who have contagious diseases or are criminals on the run or have certain kinds of criminal records.

  3. Mass time/space concentrated tourism to any given area, such that it despoils the region for locals and other tourists.

  4. Mass migrations between areas with different cultures, such that the cultural landscape changes very rapidly & increases ethnic tensions.


Admittedly the last one listed here will be pretty rare under socialism, but natural disasters do happen and the government must take appropriate measures to evenly distribute and displaced people.

>>2884085
I care. Why do people who don't care always ask "who cares?" instead of just saying "I don't care." You know not everyone agrees with you yet you pretend it's the case to demoralize.

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>>2884399
>I care
You care about the white people killed during the Haitian revolution?
You're retarded and a white supremacist

>Why do people who don't care always ask "who cares?" instead of just saying "I don't care." You know not everyone agrees with you yet you pretend it's the case to demoralize

Why ask a question you already have an answer for? Same thing

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>>2879129
>entered thread thinking OP was defending bourgeous collective punishment
<ptsd of job related collective punishment by demented manager rising
>actually read OP
>OP, actually, made correct points

>Should the ruling class be collectively punished for this crime, potentially undermining or reversing the the historical changes described above?

Yes, beyond question. Liberals will disagree, but what the fuck do you retards think when communists talk of revolution and a dictatorship of the proletariat? The bourgeiousie will be brought to heel and collectively dominated as a class. They will be punished as a class and eventually liquidated as a class. In the remnants of a world whose biosphere was nearly destroyed by capitalism, whose oligarical overlords raped children and enslaved multitudes, killed tens of millions is hellish wars, poisoned swathes of the earth, not in some calculated aim but just at the anarchic tide of markets, that there will be any pity or handwaving for holding the dying capitalist class accountable? Ridiculous.

When communists are more preoccupied with punishment instead of building a new society, nothing gets done.

>>2879129
The social murder is not a crime under any system of positive law, but a strategy in class warfare. You are trying to fit this in an unfit category


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