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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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Today most legal systems nominally reject collective punishment, emphasizing individual responsibility. It is also prohibited in armed conflict under international humanitarian law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention. This was not always the case. The Athenian Draco is remembered for harsh laws, from which we get the word "Draconian" but one of his major reforms was to replace private blood feuds with state-administered justice. Before his code, killings were often avenged by the victim's family, leading to cycles of retaliation.

The shift from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt toward individual responsibility and the presumption of innocence was gradual rather than revolutionary. In many ancient and medieval societies, families, clans, villages, or entire communities could be held liable for the actions of one member, and accused individuals often had to prove their innocence through oaths, ordeals, or social standing. These proofs were often ritual in nature and lacked scientific rigor. Over centuries, especially under the influence of Roman legal principles, canon law, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and liberal constitutionalism, legal systems increasingly emphasized that guilt should be based on evidence against a specific individual rather than group affiliation. Thinkers such as Beccaria and Blackstone argued that protecting the innocent from wrongful punishment was more important than maximizing convictions, leading to higher standards of proof, formal rules of evidence, due process, and the modern principle that the prosecution bears the burden of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite these legal prohibitions, governments and armed groups have at times been accused of imposing measures that amount to collective punishment, especially during wars, occupations, and counterinsurgency campaigns. Whether a specific case qualifies is often legally and politically disputed.

The transformation from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt to individual liability and the presumption of innocence was driven largely by changes in state capacity and legal administration. As governments became stronger, more centralized, and more bureaucratic, they relied less on kinship groups to police their own members and more on professional courts, investigators, and judges. Improved record-keeping, forensic methods, written legal codes, and standardized procedures made it increasingly feasible (but not necessarily easy) to determine who actually committed an offense, reducing the perceived need to punish families or communities collectively. At the same time, expanding commerce and more diverse populations required legal systems that were universalist in nature, and treated strangers as individuals under uniform rules rather than as second class citizens, gradually making individualized justice and procedural safeguards the foundation of modern law.

From a class and economic perspective, the shift from collective punishment and presumptions of guilt to individual responsibility can be understood as a consequence of the rise of market economies and capitalist social relations. Collective liability was well suited to feudal and kin-based societies, where obligations were shared by households, villages, and estates, but it impeded commerce by making contracts and property rights unpredictable. As merchants, urban aristocracy, and later industrial capitalists gained influence, they demanded legal systems that treated people as autonomous individuals capable of owning property, entering contracts, and being held liable only for their own actions. The resulting legal order replaced inherited collective responsibility with individualized rights and duties, not simply out of humanitarian concern, but because wage labor, private property, investment, and impersonal markets functioned more efficiently when legal responsibility was attached to discrete individuals rather than families, classes, or communities.

However, there is a problem which persists. Engels' concept of "social murder" refers to the idea that when a social and economic system predictably produces premature death through poverty, unsafe working conditions, malnutrition, or inadequate housing, those deaths are not mere accidents but the foreseeable consequences of institutional arrangements. Under this interpretation, responsibility is diffuse rather than individualized: no single capitalist or official commits murder in the ordinary legal sense, but the ruling class collectively maintains a system whose predictable effects include preventable deaths. Should the ruling class be collectively punished for this crime, potentially undermining or reversing the the historical changes described above? Furthermore, are not the proletariat themselves being collectively punished by the bourgeoisie for the crime of being poor?

One could argue that this represents a functional return of collective punishment, despite the formal triumph of individualized criminal law. Modern legal systems generally reject punishing innocent individuals for another person's crimes, yet they often tolerate economic institutions that systematically expose entire classes to greater risks of illness, violence, and early death based on their socioeconomic position. In that sense, the poor may experience harms not because of anything they individually did, but because they belong to a structurally disadvantaged class. The "punishment" is not imposed by a judge but by social and economic arrangements.

Bourgeois apologists argue that collective punishment involves intentionally imposing penalties on innocent people for the actions of others, whereas poverty-related harms arise from impersonal market processes, policy tradeoffs, historical contingencies, or individual choices rather than a deliberate punitive intent. From this perspective, calling these outcomes "collective punishment" obscures important distinctions between legal sanctions and structural inequality.

>>2879129
>emphasized
American spelling. You are American. You are Zionist. You are Epstein. You will be collectively punished. You will not worm your way out of this, American.

Was it "wrong" for the USSR to de-Germanize Kaliningrad? For Poland to de-Germanize Pomerania? No one would say that, because it's well understood that collective national punishment is indeed wholly justified, because these sorts of crimes are committed by whole nations.

>>2879142
Collective punishment is what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank. Does might really make right? Should entire populations really be punished? Even if you can grope for some "based" versions of this happening historically I will never agree with it. Individual guilt, trial by jury and presumption of innocence were huge historical advancements that people fought for centuries to have. The fact that these aren't applied consistently or fairly is no reason to revert to collective punishment, presumption of guilt, and other ancient norms.

>>2879142
Is that really collective punishment or is it just pretty basic self defense during a war

File: 1785263601455-9.jpg (20.26 KB, 439x455, images(235).jpg)

>>2879129
Theres no reason to support collective punishment ever only reactionaries do.
The bourgouise can have their power removed and their property redistributed end of story thus making them no longer bourgouise.

>>2879185
trvke from the toker

It's not an issue of punishing the bourgeoisie but rather making a determined decision to put a stop to the system that produces these things. They need a punishment for taking part collectively in certain actions but that's more like how every gang has collective crimes, not just punishing them for being bourgeois

Before continuing, we must first define concepts of law and "crime". As you say, law is an individual affair which progresses as property relations progress; here, law can then be understood as laws of property rights. What are crimes, for example? Rape, murder, theft. In each, there is a violation of permission for the use of one's property; thus we say that a person "takes" another's life. Murder is then a type of theft, and this is how it's written about.

We see in the oldest law codes that each crime has a penalty, and so what is taken relies on giving back what was taken. In the Levitical law, "an eye for an eye" makes law a function of equality. Beyond this simple reciprocity is also the valuation of property. We see in ancient law codes, a price set on crimes for compensation - wergild (blood money) is practiced in many cultures, even in the Quran, that where you kill a man, you may repay a family for compensation. At this point, life has a price, and so is the basic slave market. We see in Sumerian codes, a lesser price set upon a slave's murder than a free man's. Thus, law becomes a function of valuation in general, so is always bound to a calculation of property. As society becomes richer, laws often decline in severity, showing that where there is wealth to spare, social "debt" is more trivial. Thus, the law is largely an economic construct.

Now, in terms of "social murder", this itself is a claim of right not to be murdered, and so a claim of right to one's property. Engels in his "Outlines" (1843) argues that the labourer suffers no theft of property in surplus value:
<The axioms which qualify as robbery the landowner’s method of deriving an income – namely, that each has a right to the product of his labour, or that no one shall reap where he has not sown – are not advanced by us.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/outlines.htm
If all rights are property rights, and all property is private, then the claims of labour over capital must be advanced from the Lockean principle (e.g. that property is created by one's labour). Denying this leads to confusion, mostly due to the fact that self-defense (e.g. the basis of right) no longer has justification. Why ought a person defend himself from another if he has no right? Albert Camus in The Rebel (1951) sees self-defense as the site of one's freedom by "metaphysical rebellion", based in property. The alternative is to say "might makes right". Rousseau properly attests that so long as there is might, there can be no right. Appropriation and rightful appropriation are different things. So then, all rights are property rights.

The point in elucidating this is that the cause against a class must not be against their property, but for one's own. Revolution conceived of as self-defense conceives of itself as rightful (e.g. the consent of the governed). So, class war cannot be negative, but positive, of one's own claim to his wealth (e.g. Lassalle). The Marxist then fails to justify revolution, since he fights against property itself, while the cause of property rights assures one's possession over what belongs to him.

So then, why is social murder wrong? It must denote the theft of another's life - but who is guilty? Such is as you enquire. Robert Owen saw that all individual crime is a result of social causes; effectively making retribution an impossibility, for all men share in each other's guilt. This is a problem with "social" crimes. Engels in identifying "society" as a murderer clarifies his meaning (1845):
<When as here and elsewhere I speak of society as a responsible whole, having rights and duties, I mean, of course, the ruling power of society, the class which at present holds social and political control, and bears, therefore, the responsibility for the condition of those to whom it grants no share in such control.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm
Engels then gives a basic demand (1845):
<Let the ruling class see to it that these frightful conditions are ameliorated, or let it surrender the administration of the common interests to the labouring-class […] The English bourgeoisie has but one choice, either to continue its rule under the unanswerable charge of murder and in spite of this charge, or to abdicate in favour of the labouring-class.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/condition-working-class/ch07.htm
If Engels wrote that the ruling classes ought to return the confiscated property of labourers back to them, this would be a legal claim, but Engels fails to elaborate so, by misunderstanding the meaning of murder. So then, I am sceptical of the idea of "social" crimes themselves, since property is not socially possessed.

>>2879152
I didn't know WWII ended in 1950


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