Has any capitalist state fell back to feudalism? Reading Marx I get the sense that once a change in the mode of production happens it does not reverse and this is what we see from the most developed areas entering capitalism. If this is the case then failed AES states didn't actually change their mode of production and the possibility that socialism just as every other change in the MoP can still only come from the most advanced areas of society.
Have you ever heard of Africa or the middle east?
Several states in Africa got fucked so hard open air slave markets returned, Marx is right here.
>>2885597the Bourbon Restoration/Metternich era of Europe is a comparable period of rollback and reaction following the French Revolution.
Modes of production are not neatly defined in Marx and it's bad history to pretend that one day the world suddenly became capitalist. Capitalism is an abstraction which has to be tested in its meaning. The US was capitalist in the early 19th century, but largely employed slaves, so where does that fit into things, for example?
>>2885628Cockshott made a vid arguing the American south wasn't capitalist until the 1930s, and the rest of America wasn't capitalist until the latter part of the 1800s.
>>2885597>>2885610Not really
>>2885603>>2885628I have no idea why people are being weird about slaves in the capitalist mode of production. They existed. Under liberalism.
>>2885633I am still surprised people bother listening to this guy.
>>2885628The south was a slave society, hence why the freedman became metayers.
>>2885633Could you link the video, please?
Thanks.
>>2885597>Has any capitalist state fell back to feudalism?it took about 500 years between the emergence of mercantile republics in medieval europe (think Venice) for capitalism to become the primary mode of production worldwide.
Deng said:
<“I am convinced that more and more people will come to believe in Marxism, because it is a science. Using historical materialism, it has uncovered the laws governing the development of human society. Feudal society replaced slave society, capitalism supplanted feudalism, and, after a long time, socialism will necessarily supersede capitalism. This is an irreversible general trend of historical development, but the road has many twists and turns. Over the several centuries that it took for capitalism to replace feudalism, how many times were monarchies restored! So, in a sense, temporary restorations are usual and can hardly be avoided. Some countries have suffered major setbacks, and socialism appears to have been weakened. But the people have been tempered by the setbacks and have drawn lessons from them, and that will make socialism develop in a healthier direction. So don't panic, don't think that Marxism has disappeared, that it's not useful any more and that it has been defeated. Nothing of the sort!”- Deng Xiaoping, Excerpts From Talks Given In Wuchang, Shenzhen, Zhuhai And Shanghai, 1992
I think he is fundamentally correct about this even if you view the quote itself as apologism for his reforms.
>>2885636>I am still surprised people bother listening to this guy.I am unsurprised at your lack of arguments as to why he is wrong
>>2885636>I have no idea why people are being weird about slaves in the capitalist mode of production. They existed. Under liberalismliberalism is part of the superstructure of capitalism retard
You don't just get these neat ideal modes of production where one day everyone's a serf and the next day the contradictions within feudalism turn everyone into a wage laborer. Every social formation contains multiple modes of production of which one is usually dominant. Europe contained feudal remnants well into the 20th century, even west of the Elbe.
The us is falling back to tech feudalism as we speak
>>2885746the levels of stupidity in this thread only seems to creep yet higher.
>>2885753With you here yeah
>>2885679Interesting. Cockshott claims that the "laws of history" convert the slave mode of production in the South to feudalism from 1865-1930, where afterwards, due to the indebtedness of the American peasantry, farmland is repossessed by creditors (e.g. banks) and this creates a proletariat class which is drawn to urban centres. I have always viewed the period of Reconstruction and the Gilded Age of the late 19th century as the capitalist era full-bloom, since it gives rise to the Robber Barons like Rockefeller, the same way markets constricted in the late 19th century in England. This coincides with the age of capitalist Imperialism, with Rhodes, described by Hobson (1902) and Lenin (1916). Cockshott seems to focus on the South in particular, however, so maybe he is just limiting historical development to that region.
>>2885760It also coincides with each “Great Migration” wave of black people moving away from the Black Belt in search of industrial jobs
Ming Dynasty was in the early mercantile stage of capitalism, think of Venice or Genoa, then most of its productive forces were destroyed by the Qing dynasty
afghanistan and somalia are run by warlords, that's sorta like feudalism
>>2885912???????????????????????????????
>>2885912Afghanistan is pretty much a one party modernist state like Singapore
>>2885912Somalia has a federal government and an elected president. You have a very dated understanding of the current situation.
>>2885929Nta but they’re in control of what? A third of the country at best? Al Shabab gets closer to. Mogadishu every week.
>>2885931Ok, but it's not "le warlords." It's a civil war kind of situation and some of the other areas not under federal control are under the control of their own regional governments.
>>2885931>Al Shabab gets closer to. Mogadishu every week.Also, I don't follow every piece of news out of Somalia day to day but I doubt that.
I'm not aware of any capitalist society going back to peasants and petty production. There were some early modern peasant republics and proto-liberal experiments that got taken over by monarchs, but that's more about the superstructure (you could theoretically have a communist monarch, thank you Graeber).
>>2885597yes several proto capitalist italian city states were absorbed back into medieval italy under feudal control
>>2885942>besides the overt feudal kingdoms like KSA and the rest of the gulfbro what
When Marx talks about the Feudal Mode of Production, he isn't talking about "Feudalism", which is a legal system. The feudal legal system really only ever existed in Western Europe. The Feudal Mode of Production is the Mode of Production that existed in Western Europe in that time period when the Feudal legal system reigned. So defining a society as having Feudal MoP is not about looking at the governance system, its about how Surplus is produced and distributed.
capitalism is the highest stage of feudalism
>>2886524Those Italian city-states did not have a Capitalist Mode of Production, which starts with a restructuring of agricultural lands. They were only proto-capitalist in the sense of being dominated by merchant capital. But merchant capital has existed and has played major roles in society since the earliest societies recorded in history.
one could argue that we are in a state of feudalism right now. everything is owned by a few huge corporations that don't really have any competition, consumer agency is pretty much non-existent, we don't really buy goods or services anymore we just pay rent for access to them and the rent is constantly going up and we have nowhere else to go to find a better deal, and the same goes for our jobs that we rely on for everything, our employers dole out the minimum amount of money they can get away with paying us for our work and we cannot form unions or have any kind of leverage because our employers are hyperwealthy multinationals who can hire scabs from anywhere in the world to replace us, and now even conjure up non-human scabs to replace us spun up by some even bigger and more evil tech corporation.
>>2885942I think with that level centralization and state direction of economy its closer to an Asiatic mode of production than feudalism. Think the Qin dynasty.
The American South had feudalism until mechanized cotton picking machines. Not all the feudal lords were white, some were black. The white land lords (referred to as "the man", this is where this idiom comes from) would cheat sharecroppers of their labor, often extracting 90-95% of profit through exploiting illiteracy, innumeracy, and exacting political violence against organizers. The black feudal landlords sometimes did the opposite, funding schools and paying sharecroppers half profits. However, when these sharecroppers got their payments (all at once for the whole year,) often they would just buy a car a drive off to a city up north or out west somewhere.
Afghanistan
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