/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

Open borders, no ifs no buts.
I will emphasize time and again that Britain did not have external border controls until 1905, and that many countries had or have (but are winding down) internal border controls. There is no consistent, non-prejudiced argument for "national" borders that could not be extended to sub-national ones, yet we now regard it as self evidently absurd that you might ban someone moving between towns.

>>2888454
I ask because there are some people on this website that argue for closed borders on the notion that immigrants are a form of cheap labor ripe for exploitation.

Under capitalism, unironically zero immigration in order to disrupt the capitalist process which requires decreasing wages via higher labor supply and increasing consumption from more number of buyers.

Under communism, obviously there will be no nations.

No one is illegal on stolen land.

>>2888454
>the country surrounded by water didn't have borders before planes and motor boats were invented
don't get that argument,where would the immigrants even come from ? they would take their little fishing boat and brave the sea after they already reached France ???

>>2888460
>Motor boats were invented in 1905
>Britain, a nation which colonised a huge chunk of the world in the age of sail, was protected by the impossibility of entering or leaving Britain by sea prior to the invention of the steamship
Unspeakable retardation. Even if you wanted to make this idiotic point, a better timed argument would be the invention of the airplane in 1903!

Immigration is just a strategy used by big business to cut costs, and right now governments are using it as a political weapon. Look at what's happening in Ceuta, Spain, right now

>>2888458
You know that today's natives outside of Alaska are chudded af right?

>>2888463
Chuds are a majority in nearly every population.

>>2888464
Hence why doing [insert random ethnicty] worship is useles

That reddit, twitter and hexbear users need to fuck off back to their own padded cells ("safe space").

>>2888453
Picrel is actually pretty fitting considering the show supported "Muh heckin wholesome forgiving Nazis"; I don't know what the conservative pearl fiasco is about

>>2888458
Nobody's "illegal" period. Even even literally every immigrant raped children it would be good to arrest at least most of them but it would be hypocritical to not also arrest the elites for doing and facilitating the same but on a bigger scale per capita, hence not being legally valid. Fascism itself is all about creating new exceptions to the law until it doesn't exist; such takes precedent over palingenesis and the first thing to understand about any legal or political theory is that.

>>2888462
This is reductive reactionary retardation. There are possible negative outcomes, but immigration can, and has been in most cases, overwhelmingly beneficial.

Open borders for all women and genderqueer people. Barbed wire walls for moids.

>>2888469
I don't understand a thing, but I also saved this picture in the hope that /pol/tards won't understand it either and will think that it's too smart for them

Fully open borders makes no sense with global inequality this severe, recent happenings in Ceuta are a good exhibit of that. City's population would have doubled overnight with no capacity to integrate the newcomers.

>>2888472
Most bazed mp4 i've seen in quite a while; very fond of this

immigration speeds up the leveling of the value of labor power and is therefore historically progressive

Under capitalism? Absolutely zero. Immigration is a tool of wage suppression, obviously, but it’s also used to detach and divide the proletariat of the Global South between the diaspora in the core and the rest of the periphery. Diasporoids get co-opted by capital—which is why a lot of them end up working against the material interests of their people in the periphery.
Communist utopia? Live wherever you want, but I suspect most people will still have in-group ethnic preferences and prefer to live among people similar to them.

>>2888475
You have the internet, you can look it up. And the US is the obvious example.

>>2888478
I was being too generous
>so overwhelmingly beneficial he is unable to cite a single example in his own words

>>2888477
>>2888456
>Immigration is a tool of wage suppression

Factually wrong generalization. It could possibly be true in some countries, but virtually every single meta analysis on the impact of immigration on wages in the US finds that the impact goes from statistically insignificant to negligible (less than 1%).

https://www.cepii.fr/PDF_PUB/wp/2025/wp2025-07.pdf

>>2888480
You’re being disingenuous. A lot of these bourgeoise "studies" do the same thing. They focus on the aggregate economy even though immigrants disproportionately compete for "unskilled" low-wage jobs—agriculture, service, food processing, and some manufacturing sectors. Their negative effects are concentrated at the bottom-end of income-earners, particularly uneducated and teenage native workers. Why else is the agriculture sector in the US almost entirely dominated by Latino illegal immigrant labor? Not to mention immigrant workers often have a much lower reservation wage than native workers (another reason why capital loves them so much).

>>2888477
>Immigration is a tool of wage suppression
it raises wages for immigrants

No one will complain if they import women only

>>2888481
Uno - These studies do take into account that the impact on low-skilled labor is higher, and the difference is still negligible. Even with the reservation wage disparity;
Dos - Latino illegal immigrat labor being notable in the agriculture sector doesn't mean that jobs are "going away". The labor pool is not finite, this is very important. And immigrants create demands for new kinds of jobs;
Tres - A larger labor force isn't only beneficial under capitalism. Even if the economy is fully decommodified, more able-bodied workers means more collaborators for meeting community needs, which means less work-hours for meeting such needs, since it reduces the dependent-to-worker ratio.

>>2888484
>These studies do take into account that the impact on low-skilled labor is higher, and the difference is still negligible.
The study you linked is just a calculation of the average effect on wages in the aggregate. Using it to "disprove" the negative distributional effects on lower working class wages is retarded.
Moreover, I skimmed through the study and saw this on page 14:
<we compute the I2 statistic, quantifying the fraction of observed variance that cannot be attributed to sampling errors. The calculated I2 is 96.38%.
This is basically saying that there's a 96% real variance in the data collected across the 88 studies examined. The parameters used and the results of these studies were all over the place—some found high negative effects, others found high positive effects, and others were in between. When the results were averaged out, the net effect equaled around zero. This doesn't mean the studies finding large negative effects on low-skilled natives are outliers or "negligible." Quite the contrary, they are part of the genuine range of outcomes of immigration. In this vein, your study might actually support my position; I don't know for sure because I don’t have the time to go through all 88 studies. Nevertheless, citing the average as proof of anything is statistically meaningless because the studies themselves are highly context dependent. The authors indirectly address this in their abstract when they say:
<We highlight the critical role of contexts and methodological choices in shaping wage estimates.

>Latino illegal immigrat labor being notable in the agriculture sector doesn't mean that jobs are "going away". The labor pool is not finite, this is very important. And immigrants create demands for new kinds of jobs
Wtf is this libertarian nonsense lol? No one is claiming the labor pool is finite—that would be antithetical to the reserve army of labor, which capitalism must maintain in order to drive wages down. The issue isn't whether new jobs are "created," that’s a bourgeois framing of the social relations of production; the issue is that every new job created by capital is built on the exploitation of a new and vulnerable underclass, which dually depresses the native working class' conditions.

>A larger labor force isn't only beneficial under capitalism.
A larger labor force means a larger surplus value is being extracted—meaning more exploitation.

Migration from town to town is already bad enough, let alone nation to nation. No one should take even a step from where they were born, same with every crop, mineral, or natural resource, nothing good comes from trade

>>2888453
>immigration
from where? to where? by whom? for what purpose? by what means? under what mode of production? doesn't it depend highly on context? this is such an open ended question. maybe you are asking it in a vague way on purpose so that people can make assumptions and be assholes.

>>2888454
personally i think if you meet your wife anywhere outside of your mudhut village it's sexpat behavior. if you go more than 3 miles to find a job you're scabbing. everyone should stay exactly where they were born and marry their cousin otherwise they're sexpat rootless cosmopolitan scabs.

i dont understand why rw are so intent on pushing brown people as a primary contradiction. you just need to look at a country or japan where people face the same fundamental economic problems to see how it makes no sense

>>2888469
this pretty much covers everything

>>2888714
>or japan
*like korea or japan

if imperialism is abolished, so too will the conditions that make "mass immigration" possible. A proletarian dictatorship in the center sharing technologies with the periphery does more to end "mass immigration" than any kind of particular national policy would. This is why it is necessary not to alienate in words "mass immigrants" because they too are just labor-power going there, where there's a lot need for such a commodity on the world market. To draw a closed loop and say, migration of labor force inside is okay, and migration from outside inside is not okay, is to engage, essentially, in nationalism. Labor-force is a universal commodity because there is just one market - the world market.

>>2888456
They are /pol/tards trying to subvert and hijack the ideology, or recent converts, who think they can take advantage of left-wing rhetoric.

Their plan is to, essentially, shut out potential scabs and comrades, just to beg for higher wages. That's it. There is no revolutionary potential here.

i don't want to sound like some kind of extremist crank or anything, but i personally think that immigration is real.

>>2888735
Nah, there are some parts of the world that are objectively better in climate, and natural beauty. They will be desirable under any economic system. Under communism, for example, California might have a population of 300 million from all over the world, and it would be possible, that's just the same population density as Bangladesh.

>>2888453
Ban immigration so porkie outsources all the jobs to Mexico instead.

>>2888784
No one gives a shit about California's natural beauty people migrate there because there are jobs there. People only pretend to care about "aesthetics" because petty bourgeois ideologues told them so. You want to go somewhere? There's a HRT and cheap short term accommodation everywhere.

>>2888735
in a certain sense this is true, but in another sense it is nonsense. will abolishing imperialism abolish the airplane, the ship, the train, and so on? will abolishing imperialism sate wanderlust at a stroke?

>>2888784
you're not wrong but you underrate how conservative many people are.
e.g. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are-and-were superior to Great Britain in basically every way imaginable for the average person, yet despite the governments of those countries actively paying people to emigrate, Britain remains more populous. most people were content to wallow in the misery they knew rather than take a gamble on making things better. the notion probably never even crossed the minds of 90% of them.

Not caring about it.

>>2888676
>A larger labor force means a larger surplus value is being extracted—meaning more exploitation.
In terms of quantity but I don't see how it's qualitatively different.

>>2888714
>i dont understand why rw are so intent on pushing brown people as a primary contradiction. you just need to look at a country or japan where people face the same fundamental economic problems to see how it makes no sense
It's basically political theater, it works for them politically to present very chaotic and nasty images of migrants in the media because they win on it. They don't have any moral scruples in that regard.

Anyways, to respond to OP more broadly, the voters usually get rugpulled because none of these parties actually want to kill all the immigrants or deport them all. Business greatly advocates for it, and most countries are experiencing crashing birth rates (which nobody has any idea how to reverse, nor is anyone making much of an effort at it). Despite the memes, what these governments end up doing is remaining by and large pro-immigration as long as it's legal, non-criminal, and the immigrants work. You see this a lot when an anti-illegal immigration party comes to power and doesn't crack down on legal immigration and it's seen as "strange" as if they ever promised that. Once someone immigrates somewhere legally, it's almost impossible to deport without any reason as well.

It might be different in Europe because Europeans are generally kind of retarded about a lot of stuff, like being guided too much by wanting to be the enlightened heroes of the world and then failing spectacularly at it. I'm an American but I do think Americans will just keep Americaning, which means the Muslim mass shooters are not really a biggie because it's hard to distinguish them from the non-Muslim mass shooters. Maybe that's a sign of integration actually. Also America's unbridled at-will capitalist employment structure might work better here at rapidly absorbing new workers. But by and large, it's a grossly overhyped issue.

In any event, a lot of migration comes from a combination of push / pull factors. If the country you're from sucks balls, that's a push factor to move to a country where you can grow your income sometimes by 10x+. Countries that reach middle-income status seem outward migration decline a lot. I'm from Texas and that has happened with Mexican immigration becaues Mexico has gotten a lot better compared to the 1990s. (There's cartel violence but that's also overhyped, except it's real but it's weird.) What's much higher now is Central American migration, and also migration from India, which will decline in the future but that's going to take some time because the Indian economy isn't large enough to reliably provide employment for people.

>>2889084
>In terms of quantity but I don't see how it's qualitatively different.
It qualitatively devalues labor-power.

Under capitalism: restrict immigration to prevent downward pressure on wages and stifle the capitalist demand for cheap labour. Simultaneously reject all forms of racism and organize on an equal basis with any migrants already in the country.

Under socialism: Gradual amalgamation of nations into regional (and hopefully global) unions withe EU style free movement. Through this work towards the abolition of the nation state altogether.

>>2889146
Restricting immigration does nothing to the price of labour globally since (a) capital is mobile and (b) any decrease in native wages is, inherently, compensated by an increase in non native wages, even before you factor that (c) immigrants increase demand for goods and services in their area leading to more hiring, e.g. no real net change in the overall price because an increase in labour supply inherently causes an increase in labour demand. (Hell, even hypothetical welfare queen migrants boost labour demand!)

But (a) is the point that cannot be emphasized enough. A world where you close the borders is not one where local wages rise (indeed the closed border zero-growth poster child Japan has seen wages stagnate), it's just one where local capitalists invest abroad.

>>2888472
BNWO transhumanist coded meme

The cause of modern immigration is the pull factor of concentrated capital, which then allows for economic opportunity. Lenin (1913):
<Capitalism has given rise to a special form of migration of nations. The rapidly developing industrial countries, introducing machinery on a large scale and ousting the backward countries from the world market, raise wages at home above the average rate and thus attract workers from the backward countries.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/oct/29.htm
Imperialism can also cause uneven development. Marx (1867-70):
<Every time Ireland was about to develop industrially, she was crushed and reconverted into a purely agricultural land.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867/12/16.htm
<Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm
For this sake, Marx sees that Irish independence will reverse the flow of immigrants by an even development of industry. So then, it is all about the demand for labour from capital and the demand for [wages] from workers. A surplus population leads to lower wages, and so it is also benefitting of capital to concentrate, to cause labour antagonism:
<Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class. […] The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the “poor whites” to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/letters/70_04_09.htm
Thus, racial and class conflict occurs internally, which allows capital to benefit. Marx's own suggestion is solidarity, so to allow the [Irish] to achieve indepence. Jack London also speaks on antagonism (1905):
<“I asked one of the largest employers of labor in the South if he feared the coming of the trade union.  ‘No,’ he said, ‘it is one good result of race prejudice, that the negro will enable us in the long run to weaken the trade union so that it cannot harm us.  We can keep wages down with the negro and we can prevent too much organization.’
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1187/1187-h/1187-h.htm
Indeed, Marx compares the English versus Irish to the American "poor whites" and negroes. This is all straight from the horse's mouth:
<Illegal migrant crackdown risks pushing up takeaway prices, warns Uber 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/09/05/illegal-migrant-crackdown-risks-pushing-up-takeaway-prices/
Now, this only concerns immigrant *workers*. In terms of immigrant lumpen - Marx wholesale refers to each as "social scum" and really found no sympathy for them. Why would he? As we see, immigration is confused for many, since they substitute class for race. Of course, there ought to be an immediate expulsion of all lumpen, preferably of both immigrant and citizen, like the British with the Australians. In terms of AES, all communist countries have been extremely restrictive of both immigration and emigration, which certainly seems ironic…

I think you can't be against migrants strictly. They do make some things you yourself consume, less expensive. How this can be bad? Assume you get fired.. but will you? The migrants eat what you eat. They use medical care that you use. But - they live in a military like rooms, not in individual appartments. THey likely work longer hours. – fight against this.

>>2889171
The difficulty (or, if you're more optimistic, sheer advantage) of the Brit/Australian comparison is that the Australians are clearly superior people to the British in every regard. There are two ways to interpret this: optimistically, expelling lumpen improves both populations. Pessimistically, it is the selection effect of voluntary migration. e.g. the best Brits also moved to Australia in pursuit of a better life, leaving behind the small-c conservative losers content to wallow in misery and mediocrity, and the inbred aristocrats who had no need to aspire to better things.

I've generally skewed to the latter interpretation, although there could be an element of both. I want to be open minded: the most pressing problem of civilisation today is how to stop a general alliance of all forms of lumpen from fucking the whole thing up.

>>2889159
>A world where you close the borders is not one where local wages rise (indeed the closed border zero-growth poster child Japan has seen wages stagnate), it's just one where local capitalists invest abroad.
Which is why there should also be controls on capital flight, plus nationalization. This would all be part of a short-medium term platform for a communist party.

i didn't move from san francisco to austin two years ago for my new six-figure IT project manager job and a massive tax break just to see my new native homeland be overrun by a bunch of immigrants who want to exploit the system for a free ride and can't even speak the local language hella good.

>>2889259
Send 'em back to where they came from (the San Francisco Bay Area) and then (nuke the San Francisco Bay Area)

>>2889159
>immigrants increase demand for goods and services in their area leading to more hiring, e.g. no real net change in the overall price because an increase in labour supply inherently causes an increase in labour demand
When it comes to the lower working class, the wage-depressing effect immigrants have on the jobs they compete for—primarily "unskilled" labor—is greater than the increase in demand for other commodities.

It's only ok when cute women do it

>>2889476
True

>>2888453
Billionaires want open borders. Do I need to say more?

>>2888453
Im fine with it if it kills the west
Sadly it wont

>>2889595
If billionaires wanted open borders we would have open borders. What billionaires want is immigrants to be illegal. That way they can import and deport people at will. They want to expand this to everyone, ICE already detains American citizens and trump recently tried to get rid of birth right citizenship.

>>2889936
>Elon Musk is the only one against open borders

ah yeah, the south african national who emigrated to america and became a trillionaire and used his wealth to buy a seat in the white house and dismantle the entire us government, he's against open borders. maybe it's not really about the borders, maybe it's about which people are bound to the land and which are not, which people are serfs and which people are lords.

Mass immigration is a tool used by the ruling class to drive down wages.

>>2889595
Open borders for me but nor for thee

>>2889595


Billionares want bbq too, therefore bbq is bad?

>>2889971
bbq isn't used to suppress wages

>>2889218
>They do make some things you yourself consume, less expensive. How this can be bad?
they'll work for a lower wages lowering the average wage of all workers. Immigration is classwar

>>2888453
The scientific socialist position on immigration, following Marx, Engels, and Lenin, remains unchanged. The position is to fight for the rights of both immigrant and native workers so that capitalists cannot profit by exploiting other workers more intensely. This means granting civil and labor rights along with compensation for any time and day that the immigrant worker was most exploited, always punishing the capitalist so that he cannot profit.

There are radical reforms that lead to increased class struggles instead of complacency that can be done in a bourgeois democracy to build dual power with the workers' popular councils, to prepare for when the revolutionary situation arrives and the masses are prepared with the revolutionary party to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.

An example are laws that prevent the radicalization of unions being modified and withdrawn to intensify the class struggle, a council with mandatory members of workers to balance wages with inflation with their participation, abolish indirect taxes linked to working class consumption for these start to lose superstitions of the state, judicial democratization of lawyers for the working class, forced unionization of the working population, equalization of unions to avoid traitors conspiring and selling themselves to the bourgeoisie without solidarity with their class in the leadership of these unions, solidarity process of salary not paid along with non-long rights to precarious work of immigrant workers with compensation for the victims and severe punishment for the capitalist even if the victims say it is voluntary and they do not have class consciousness to fight for their rights, guarantee of public employment. Nationalizations without compensation along with various actions to remove the role of profit in the needs of the population and public participation, do not forget to always talk about nationalizing all private banks, as much as possible the country must avoid having to depend on raw materials from abroad in the matter of energy (sovereignty in food, energy, financial and industrial production must be above all to not depend on imperialism). Always connect everything to why private property must be abolished to radicalize the masses so as not to remain in the distant abstract and irritate the bourgeoisie with the diminishing profit extracted from them to lead the bourgeois state to crises that intensify the class struggle.

Don't forget the reduction in working hours for all workers, along with more free time without a reduction in salary, and this salary being linked to and adjusted for inflation, along with pensions. All pensions would be mandatorily paid by each capitalist exploiting the workers. This pension would be outside of any market speculation, guaranteed by the government and controlled by the workers, without any capitalist involvement. All workers would have insurance guaranteed by the government and paid for by the capitalists, with workers in organizations outside of market speculation or profit.

Let's look at the quotes that prove my point:

<1. One rest day each week or legal ban on employers imposing work more than six days out of seven. - Legal reduction of the working day to eight hours for adults. - A ban on children under fourteen years working in private workshops; and, between fourteen and sixteen years, reduction of the working day from eight to six hours;
<2. Protective supervision of apprentices by the workers' organizations;
<3. Legal minimum wage, determined each year according to the local price of food, by a workers' statistical commission;
<4. Legal prohibition of bosses employing foreign workers at a wage less than that of French workers;
[…]
<7. Responsibility of society for the old and the disabled;
<8. Prohibition of all interference by employers in the administration of workers' friendly societies, provident societies, etc., which are returned to the exclusive control of the workers;
<9. Responsibility of the bosses in the matter of accidents, guaranteed by a security paid by the employer into the workers' funds, and in proportion to the number of workers employed and the danger that the industry presents;
<10. Intervention by the workers in the special regulations of the various workshops; an end to the right usurped by the bosses to impose any penalty on their workers in the form of fines or withholding of wages (decree by the Commune of 27 April 1871);
<11. Annulment of all the contracts that have alienated public property (banks, railways, mines, etc.), and the exploitation of all state-owned workshops to be entrusted to the workers who work there;
<12. Abolition of all indirect taxes and transformation of all direct taxes into a progressive tax on incomes over 3,000 francs. Suppression of all inheritance on a collateral line [8] and of all direct inheritance over 20,000 francs.

<Karl Marx and Jules Guesde, 1880, The Programme of the Parti Ouvrier

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/05/parti-ouvrier.htm

To answer the question about immigration, I will cite the general position that differentiates communists from other working-class parties in the manifesto:

<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II. Proletarians and Communists

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Let's look at practical examples of a political program in an election in a bourgeois democracy, with texts by Marx and Engels that fit what is written:

<(iv) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, in so far as they still exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.

<(v) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

<Frederick Engels, 1847, The Principles of Communism

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

Now let's look at Lenin's quotes for those who pretend the Bolsheviks didn't have workers of various nationalities or refused to organize immigrant workers:

<We can demand popular election of officers, abolition of all military law, equal rights for foreign and native-born workers (a point particularly important for those imperialist states which, like Switzerland, are more and more blatantly exploiting larger numbers of foreign workers, while denying them all rights). Further, we can demand the right of every hundred, say, inhabitants of a given country to form voluntary military-training associations, with free election of instructors paid by the state, etc.

<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1916, The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution: III

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/miliprog/iii.htm

<6) Freedom of movement and occupation.

<7) Abolition of the social estates; equal rights for all citizens irrespective of sex, creed, race, or nationality.
[…]
<12) The police and standing army to be replaced by the universally armed people; workers and other employees to receive regular wages from the capitalists for the time devoted to public service in the people’s militia.
[…]
<To safeguard the working class from physical and moral deterioration, and develop its ability to carry on the struggle for emancipation, the Party demands:
[…]
<8) Full social insurance of workers:

<a) for all forms of wage-labour;

<b) for all forms of disablement, namely, sickness, injury, infirmity, old age, occupational disease, child-birth, widowhood, orphanhood, and also unemployment, etc.

<c) all insurance institutions to be administered entirely by the insured themselves;

<d) the cost of insurance to be borne by the capitalists;

<e) free medical and medicinal aid under the control of self-governing sick benefit societies, the management bodies of which are to be elected by the workers.
[…]
<In the endeavour to achieve its immediate aims, the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party supports every oppositional and revolutionary movement directed against the existing social and political set-up in Russia, but at the same time emphatically rejects all reformist projects involving any expansion or consolidation of the guardianship of the police and bureaucracy over the labouring masses.

<V. I. Lenin, 1917, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

From here, you can already see that any excuse anyone gives to increase the repressive power of the bourgeois state under any pretext must be opposed by communists. Remember that the proletarian state has the right to use its revolutionary terror to socialize the economy and punish counterrevolutionaries as it pleases, since the state is an instrument of one class to oppress another.

Opposing it too harshly makes it worse for local workers. Under international socialism it should be open borders too, or at least open borders between socialist states.

>>2889595
Billionaires don't want open borders. They want ICE-style enforcement so they can pressure immigrants to work under even more precarious positions coz they have no legal or union representation.

>>2889532
Hot?

the workers themselves need to coordinate immigration like Marx suggested with the Irish problem in England. It can’t be left to the bourgeois to decide how labor flows.

>>2888453
Permanent censorship on discussion.

Full open borders, we need the victims of imperialism and colonialism to enact their revenge

>>2890305
The very actions of communists and other workers organizing against the bourgeois class depend on activities that would be considered illegal and criminal by the ruling class.

As Lenin's own text in his program before the revolution wrote:

<The party of the proletariat cannot rest content with a bourgeois parliamentary democratic republic, which throughout the world preserves and strives to perpetuate the monarchist instruments for the oppression of the masses, namely, the police, the standing army, and the privileged bureaucracy.

<The party fights for a more democratic workers’ and peasants’ republic, in which the police and the standing army will be abolished and replaced by the universally armed people, by a people’s militia; all officials will be not only elective, but also subject to recall at any time upon the demand of a majority of the electors; all officials, without exception, will be paid at a rate not exceeding the average wage of a competent worker; parliamentary representative institutions will be gradually replaced by Soviets of people’s representatives (from various classes and professions, or from various localities), functioning as both legislative and executive bodies.

<V. I. Lenin, 1917, Materials Relating to the Revision of the Party Programme

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/reviprog/ch04.htm

In the event that the dictatorship of the proletariat is established in a communist revolution and the supremacy of the proletarian class is consolidated, then counter-revolutionaries, saboteurs, and agents of imperialist capitalism will be punished and combated. This does not involve punishing criminals; people with anti-social behavior will be punished with re-education, with more severe punishments depending on whether they are serving imperialist capitalism against the supremacy of the proletariat in the dictatorship of the proletariat. There will still be relations with communists from other countries that will help these other countries acquire economic sovereignty and be able to have a communist revolution to socialize their economies.

Punishing criminals, I consider too vague and easily co-opted by counter-revolutionary opportunists to depoliticize the masses and ignore the class struggle.

Let's look at the quote from Engels writing about the state:

<As the state arose from the need to keep class antagonisms in check, but also arose in the thick of the fight between the classes, it is normally the state of the most powerful, economically ruling class, which by its means becomes also the politically ruling class, and so acquires new means of holding down and exploiting the oppressed class. The ancient state was, above all, the state of the slave-owners for holding down the slaves, just as the feudal state was the organ of the nobility for holding down the peasant serfs and bondsmen, and the modern representative state is the instrument for exploiting wage-labor by capital. Exceptional periods, however, occur when the warring classes are so nearly equal in forces that the state power, as apparent mediator, acquires for the moment a certain independence in relation to both. This applies to the absolute monarchy of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, which balances the nobility and the bourgeoisie against one another; and to the Bonapartism of the First and particularly of the Second French Empire, which played off the proletariat against the bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie against the proletariat. The latest achievement in this line, in which ruler and ruled look equally comic, is the new German Empire of the Bismarckian nation; here the capitalists and the workers are balanced against one another and both of them fleeced for the benefit of the decayed Prussian cabbage Junkers.

<Frederick Engels, 1884, Origins of the Family, Private Property, and the State, IX. Barbarism and Civilization

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/ch09.htm

The state is not a neutral entity above classes, nor does it reconcile social classes. Therefore, it is intolerable to have any illusion about the state giving the appearance that it is not an instrument of one class oppressing another social class. Punishing criminals means this and is therefore unacceptable. Punishing opportunists, counter-revolutionaries, agents of imperialist capitalism, liberals, reactionaries, apologists for class conciliation, saboteurs, and enemies of the supremacy of the proletarian class is more acceptable. Correcting, re-educating, disciplining, and treating individuals with antisocial behavior, lack of discipline, or confusion due to lack of education is another acceptable response, different from the first case.

>>2890711
edgy liberal

>>2888471
>I don't understand a thing,
it's very american. porky is on top of a tower made of workers tears. he is shooting a gun labeled "le imperialism gun" its payload flies in an arc labeled "taxpayer funded genocide" where it lands on the far side of the border wall, an immigrant runs from the bombs, screaming "let me in! let me in!" but the border wall guy won't let them in. he does however sell weapons to the cartel (this is proven). Above the border wall a plane full of rich immigrants carries a nazi collaborator, a zionist, and a wahhabist saudi monarch. Under the wall is a detainment center where everyone is getting covid from the cramped conditions and lack of hygiene. beneath the all that is a cartel-owned narco tunnel that bypasses the wall anyway. an enslaved man digs forward, under an indian burial ground, showing how the original "natives" were genocided and replaced by the current anti-immigrant "natives" who are also afraid of being "replaced." but the situation is different. we have a victorious high tech settler colonial state projecting the intentions of its own genocide of indigenous onto the refugees of climate change and imperialism. A cop tells a maga fag "they're gonna replace u" while the maga fag says "no way. so unfair. literally genocide." behind the cop is a "farmer" (kulak landowner) who needs more people to pick his crops for him. he eagerly awaits the next wave of desperate people.

maga fags unironically believe hordes of millions of brown skins are invading like a military to genocide them. they think it's the end of the bronze age and they are brave pharaohs resisting the invading sea peoples. maga fags cannot tell the difference between a globally unstable system created by their own policies and an actual operation barbarossa style genocidal invasion. they think latin americans fleeing the latest CIA fuckery literally want to kill all whites or something. It's peak projection. especially since their "strong borders" policies consists of just further militarizing the police state against internal dissent and not actually fixing the root causes of why people show up. it's still easy to overstay a visa but maybe if we give more chuds with egos guns and kevlar vests all the migrants will stop fleeing the looted couped sanctioned embargoed bombed countries where it's heat stroke weather 11 months out of the year.

My political position on immigration is that everyone who didn't have an ancestor in my country (America) prior 1890 should be deported

>>2893034
>jak
Ah, so you're retarded?

I hate religion but girls wearing hijabs can be so cute tbh

>>2893034
Agree but change the date to 1607.

>>2888453
People should stay in there own countries and improve them. the logic of going some where else to get a "better life" is the exact same logic that powers genocidal settler-colonialism. Fight for what you have rather than trying to take what someone else has.

>>2893193
He said from his mom's basement while injecting kfc grease straight into his veins

>>2893206
this isn't your blog

>>2893193
Most poor countries have lots of labour and very little capital. The single best thing you can do to improve them is work abroad and remit money to your homeland. There is no point becoming a doctor in a country that cannot afford to import or produce medical supplies, but if you go abroad and become a McDonalds worker you can remit the foreign currency necessary to make those imports.
<but imports are bad waah
the initial capital equipment for domestic production will also, at first, have to be imported. the world isn't minecraft.

>>2888453
The Global Migration Crisis is purely a result of the Global Capitalist-Imperialist System that has created widespread Poverty/Inequality/Starvation combined with Genocidal Imperialist Wars launched by the U$ and the Zionist State throughout the Periphery/Semi-Periphery countries that has caused millions of people from Latin America, Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, Eastern Europe, and East Asia to flee their homes and try to get to the Imperial Core (ie. The U$ and Western Europe), where they are used by the Bourgeoisie for both cheap labor and as a convenient scapegoat/bogeyman to divide the Proletariat in order to elect Fascists like Trump who will gut the Social Safety Net and eventually declare Martial Law and permanently suspend Bourgeois Liberal Democracy, so their is no way to truly solve this problem as long as the Global Capitalist-Imperialist System exists, but once the World Maoist PPW (in the aftermath of the inevitable World War III between the U$ and China escalating into a Global Nuclear War that completely destroys the entire Global Capitalist-imperialist System) successfully creates a Global USSR (all of the SSRs and SFSRs of the future Global USSR are shown in the Map I posted), the Global Migration Crisis will end, as their will be no Material reason for anyone to migrate anymore, as every person worldwide will have Free Housing, Free Healthcare, Free Education, a Job Guarantee, and a UBI, and most people who migrated will probably voluntarily return to their homelands, with every Nation/Ethnic group receiving their own SSR according to the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist principle of Self-Determination for all Oppressed Nations in their own SSR as articulated in Stalin’s “Marxism and the National Question” https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1913/03a.htm and Lenin’s “The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination” https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm , along with the National Delimitation Policy of the USSR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_delimitation_in_the_Soviet_Union , so you can end Mass Immigration and ensure Ethnic Homogeneity in your country in a Humane and Progressive way, by embracing the Immortal Science of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, the Highest Stage of Marxism, and start traveling on the Shining Path to Communism, ✊😜🇨🇳🇰🇵🇨🇺🇵🇸🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🚀☢️💇‍♀️👩‍🦲!

>>2893206
Retard

>>2893240
Money remittance only creates the conditions for imperialism to enslave the mother country via threatening to restrict the flow. It's the reason India bends over backwards anytime Trump wants to fuck them, because he can simply threaten the systen of monetary remittances that make up a good deal of many indian people's support network. Instead of improving ones own country by migrating and sending money back you are putting heavier chains on it.

>>2893193
>People should
Retarded idealism

>>2888453
>Whats the correct leftypol take on immigration?
The opposite of what EU says. They're deporting immigrants and closing borders, so the correct take is open borders and "refugees and immigrants welcome!" Let them all in.

>>2893264
This simply does not follow, even on its own terms. If India did not have foreign currency inflows it would not be independent of the US in foreign policy, it would be either irrelevant or subservient because it would be trivial for the (much richer) US to fuck them over.

You cannot, in fact, be "poor but free", there is no magic "do domestic development to modern living standards without interacting with the global economy" button. That's before we even get into whether the level of analysis should be countries, rather than either individuals or classes.