So why is it that all "historically progressive" forces in History all turnout to be white European colonizers who raped and enslaved Black and Indigenous folx?
Is Marxism just a long winded apologia to justify colonialism and oppression?
Pretty much yeah
I mean what happened to the indeands? Whats the progress in getting genocided?
it's progressive because it gets rid of tribal communal property and sets up property relations which can abolish all property relations 🙄
Because white Europeans were the first to develop Capitalist social relations and create a world economy.
Why do people insist on using the phrase "historically progressive" as a moral judgement if it is just a description of the objective laws of history?
You really need to get rid of your ressentiment so that you can look at the world objectively.
Most of Europe was a shithole before Rome civilized them. Europeans use the Roman (Pheonician) alphabet. They never even developed their own alphabet. But you don't see them being resentful and feeling inferior that they were basically snowmonkeys before Roman colonization.
So Europeans never developed this ressentiment and simply took the best parts of Rome and improved upon it. The Japanese and Chinese do the same.
And btw your own ancestors were just as violent and barbaric towards each other as the Western invaders. Not saying that their genocide was justified, but it would help to get rid of the victim mentality, which is the source of ressentinment.
Im gonna say this.
If we manage to get luxary automated space communism whatever, then it was indeed a progressive march of history
If we dont and instead get the complete collapse of the ecosystem, the industrial system, and etc. Then maybe it wasnt progressive.
>>2888851>obvious crop fields and managed hedgerowsyou're pointing at civilisation, you stupid child!
Progressivity does not exist because history is cyclical.
>>2888855that just means the entire talk about "muh progressiveness of history" is just post-hoc justification of everything that happen in the past.
but at least it's not alt-his speculation I will give it that
>>2888752Before there were European colonies, Whites were the most enslaved ethnicity in the world. Slavery is the more progressive mode of production than clan society, and the Mesoamerican civilizations were already proper slave states before the Spanish arrived.
When the age of colonialism was established, slavery in a sense was already outmoded by the Encomienda laid roots for its own abolition. When the American Civil War started, slavery was already a massive anomaly (which can be seen in the fact that the CSA got absolutely zero international recognition).
>>2888753I mean, Marx and Engels were 19th century thinkers, so they possessed remnants of Eurocentrism, but they were incredible universal for their time. They had a genuine interest in abolishing slavery which didn't save them from having some really bad stances on things like British colonialism in India - which could be attributed to the lack of knowledge about Asia available to them.
>>2888879Bullshit, what Marxist views the restauration of the monarchy in Britain, the Bourbon Restauration in France as progressive?
>>2888787>Most of Europe was a shithole before Rome civilized them.What? Rome was the ultimate shithole it was genocidal slave state where 99% of the populace lived in near total destitution.
People outside of the roman empire were taller lived longer healthier lives with less nutritional stress than people inside of it.
>They never even developed their own alphabet.The romans didnt either no one did aside from sumerians egyptians meso americans and china
I really dont get the chud idoliziation of pre-modern organized states when they were near universally worse places to live in for the average person than disorganized states because the state exists solely as an instrument of class rule and oppression.
>>2888887i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production i hate the peasant mode of production
>>2888874>just post-hoc justification of everything that happen in the past.No I didnt mean everything. What I meant with progressive march of history is that these specific events lead to the spread of capitalism, which in turn eventually could build the foundations for luxary automated space communism or whatever. In this case it would be progressive. (Not all events do this)
But……if the march of history just ends with the collapse of the climate, ecosystem, and etc. Then perhaps the whole progress idea is faulty in itself. Since if progress just leads to complete collapse….
>>2888752>So why is it that all "historically progressive" forces in History all turnout to be white European colonizers who raped and enslaved Black and Indigenous folx?all humans walked out of africa so all humans are african. all humans immigrated from one place to another, so nobody is indigenous. white people are not real, and the first historically progressive force was the invention of agriculture in the middle east, which resulted in class society and slavery. reminder "historically progressive" is not a compliment, just an acknowledgement of what caused rapid change in human society. the black plague was historically progressive. genghis khan was historically progressive.
>So why is it that all "historically progressive" forces in History all turnout to be white European colonizers who raped and enslaved Black and Indigenous folx?
Not true at all. Even if you take the classical Marxist view of colonialism as initially progressive, the Marxist method leads us to conclude that it inevitably generated an antagonist which was more progressive than colonialism itself, i.e. national liberation. If you want to summarize it, colonialism prepared non-European peoples to eventually rise up against it and join the capitalist world on their own terms, where they now actually have a chance at sovereignty and competition.
>>2889214>>2888854You read too much Russian nationalist fanfics of LOTR
>>2889951The Islamic Golden Age
Ancient Egypt
etc
>>2889168>reminder "historically progressive" is not a compliment, just an acknowledgement of what caused rapid change in human society. the black plague was historically progressive. genghis khan was historically progressive.underrated truth nuke
>>2889998It's not about change alone. Not everything is historically progressive
>>2888761Because they are liberals, openly, or at heart, and use the liberal definition of "progressive".
>>2890071You are tanKKKiddie. Don't be calling anyone else liberal
I think the crux of the matter is
Did marx consider all forms of historical progressiveness to be good?
>>2890140Calling things good or bad is MORALISM (which is bad… oops). The slavery of antiquity was progressive but bad but but if you say it's bad you're a reactionary and bad. Actually no wait morality is determined by the economic base so no one considered slavery bad back then. Well except the slaves. And whoever was arguing against the pro-slave philosophers. But they didn't matter.
>>2888761You got it the other way around. People understand that it’s supposed to be an amoral concept but they mean it acts as apologia by treating the most heinous atrocities as necessary and therefore as turning a blind eye to the immorality involved in these allegedly necessary events. They also cast doubt on whether or not it was necessary and suggest it is just a different rationalization for whites to come to terms with their people’s atrocities.
>>2890898The healthiest approach would be to mourn, then move on (without forgetting obviously)
>>2890899Yeah well you are making the same mistake as most whites do, which is to treat it as something in the past that people are irrationally hung up about when in fact there is a red thread from the past reaching into the present of essentially the same issue existing today, but merely in a developed and adapted form. This instigates and stokes hatred today from non-whites against whites. And not as some nebulous enemy somewhere else out there in the world but by ordinary whites themselves with whom we interact with. There are the atrocities and and systems on a macroscale and then there is the interpersonal on a microscale and that’s where many whites fail. I don’t see why this is so hard for white people to wrap their head around but I guess it’s because you don’t experience your demographic from an outsiders view.
>>2890933The main part of moving on is dealing with the direct consequences of everything that happened that you elaborate on, I should have probably said that.
>>2890936Sure then we are in agreement. I’m not interested in being hung up over the past and wasn’t until I saw what is still going on.
>>2890898yeah pretty much this
>>2890948>imgthe fact that this was a real amazon patent….jesus christ, they did seriously consider this.
>>2890960It’s very literally just a forklift with worse aesthetics, your car you drive every day is also a prison
>>2890963no?
From what i know of the machine:
- You can't drive it. The central computer system moves it.
- You can't freely exit it. The central computer system opens it. And if you can open it, there's a lot of other automated cages which could hit you.
- You can't really disconnect yourself from it. There's a tether that connects you to the cage. If you untether yourself, while the cage is running, then the central system will shut the cage down. Trapping you in it until a human supervisor appears.
It's not really a forklift or a car. It's a human becoming more of an automated cog in the machine. More and more "humanity" leaving the business envioronment in the name of optimization.
"Historically progressive" is honestly kinda vague. Was the spread of Abrahamic religions historically progressive? On one hand they introduced homophobia and misogyny to countless cultures, but on the other hand it's been a while since kings have built castles out of the skulls of conquered peoples
>>2891947>"Historically progressive" is honestly kinda vague. Its really not. People just have hard time of understanding the differences between original meaning of progress and the modern propaganda version newspeak.
>>2891947>Was the spread of Abrahamic religions historically progressive? Yes in the sense that this idealism was part of the progress from slave society towards a feudal society.
>>2889214Sauron wasn't even the industrialist interested in developing mechanization, that was Saruman.
>>2890963have you noticed that the locking keypad is only on the outside
>>2891972Where does Marx define progress?
>>2888859I take the Proudhonist position that "progress" is circular, which is the meaning of "revolution" (e.g. returning back to the same point). Marx in his latest years offers wisdom upon this topic. Marx (1881):
<‘the new system’ to which modern society is tending ‘will be a revival, in a superior form, of an archaic social type.’ We should not, then, be too frightened by the word ‘archaic’.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/zasulich/draft-1.htmHere, History is moving back to its beginning, the same as the cyclical History of Hesiod (700 BCE) and the Mahabrata (400 BCE). We see then that the course of History is back toward the lost Golden Age. This is also in the Bible, where a new Eden redeems the Curse of Adam, or so to say, the compulsion of labour is overcome (such as Hesiod describes our Iron Age as one of toil). Virgil (40 BCE):
<The iron shall cease, the golden race arise […] shall the earth, untilled, pour freely forth her childish giftshttps://allpoetry.com/Eclogue-IV >>2889951japan before the islamic revolution
>>2890948That's a myth. The typical peasant worked from sun up to sun down every day. Some people have made it out like peasants didn't even have to work that much by confusing the feudal obligations of a serf with how much they had to work. Serfs were expected to farm their lords fields and perform a number of other tasks such as maintenance of infrastructure and basically just doing the lord's chores for free as an obligation to him. The time they had "off" they were working for themselves on their own land and in their own homes.
>>2900715So nothing has changed
>>2893018>>2891978Read Anti-Dühring
>the kind of negation is here determined, firstly, by the general and, secondly, by the particular nature of the process. I must not only negate, but also sublate the negation. I must therefore so arrange the first negation that the second remains or becomes possible. Unique IPs: 45