/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

yea that is retarded a post-industrial society would be a society that harness the full power of its sun. Even in super automated communism in 500 years that would still be a challege.

Capitalism is a global system. The industrial share of employment and income may have declined in some countries, but its merely because industry went elsewhere. "Post industrial" is a euphemism for a location abandoned by industry due to falling profit-rate or some other reason, rather than some new kind of socio-economic configuration.

Post industrial refers to the collapse of manufacturing employment and as the majority driver of economic activity, not a literal cessation of industry. Most "post industrial" countries produce as much value in manufactured goods as they ever did, but with far fewer people and with manufacturing as a much lower share of GDP. Even China's economy is majority services.

This is a good thing and it was a good thing when manufacturing also displaced agriculture (again with yields growing but employment and % of overall economy shrinking)

>>2891755
>Post industrial refers to the collapse of manufacturing employment

yeah, like it just up and collapsed by itself. the gods of macroeconomics have spoken and this is just the way it has to be, it's out of anyone's hands. this isn't a bunch of wealthy multinationals buying off corrupt politicians and selling our industrial infrastructure to foreigners and bleeding our country dry, this is progress. it's just like when termites turn the inside of a tree into a post-ligneous society.

When the only alternative to grifting is minimum wage that gets ruined by inflation and increase in prices because of the iran blockade, is it really surprising nobody takes labor seriously ?
Not only that, but finding employment in the first place isn't even that easy, since most job listings are polluted with fakes made to get government subsidies

you have to be non-anglo to get it

>>2891755
How is manufacturing being replaced by services at all a good thing? There has never been a revolution led by service workers, it was industrial workers and peasants

>>2891695
>a "post-industrial society"
In economics this refers to service workers becoming the majority over industrial workers as can seen from statistics from every single post-industrial society on earth. Industrial work becomes less and less labor intensive as automation technology progresses. For service jobs there hasn't really been automation until AI was invented and now all kinds of artist hippie service workers are complaining about it.

>>2892113

this is a non-self-sustaining imperialist model that depends on having poorer countries to exploit and do all of the work for you for next to nothing. what happens when the poor countries are not so poor anymore? what happens when you lose your global dominance and you're no longer in a position to do whatever you want and the rest of the world despises you? it's like saying a serial rapist is "advanced" because he has eliminated all of the tedious work of meeting women and talking to them and taking them out on dates to fancy restaurants.

>>2892120
>Industrial work becomes less and less labor intensive as automation technology progresses.

it doesn't though. that's not what automation does. let's stop and take a breath and dispel this religious supernatural conception of automation as a magical technology that violates the laws of thermodynamics and eliminates all work and allows things to be made for free. that isn't what it does. it just allows things to be made more efficiently by outsourcing the human labor elsewhere. it requires exactly the same amount of work for a hammer to drive a nail through wood as it does a nailgun, what the nailgun does is outsource most of the work out of the human operator's body and into a piston actuated by electricity or compressed air or gunpowder, all of which are derived from human labor somewhere down the line. and the outsourcing does not come free - the nailgun can and will eventually wear out and break down and malfunction in all kinds of ways that a simple hammer cannot, the hammer is so simple and solid-state that it can hammer nails for hundreds of years while the nailgun won't last more than a decade or so. this isn't a luddite argument trying to say that hammers are better than nailguns and technology is bad, the point is that work can never be eliminated, there is no such thing as "the end of work". there is never going to be a post-work society where robots with human-level intelligence do everything for us while we sit on our asses, because if the robots had human-level intelligence then they would not be stupid enough to want to be our slaves. we need to stop fetishizing technology and thinking of it as some kind of magic because it isn't. there is no magic and nothing is free.

>>2892488
You are mixing mechanical work (joules) with economic labor (man-hours). A nailgun requires drastically fewer aggregate human labor hours per nail driven (across its entire supply chain and lifespan) than a hammer. If automation didnt reduce total labor input per unit no one would invest capital in it.

You completely dodged the actual point: this structural reduction in manufacturing man-hours is exactly why the workforce shifted to services.

>>2891695
>what the fuck kind of nonsense is that shit?
Re-read this post once the trip is over. You're asking for too much from the species and the universe.

>common sense
It's literally context and herd bound.

The absolute best one can ask is for better tools to participate in life and a good death when it gets too long and absurd. That's all. There's no utopia, no nothing. You're born, you mature, you exist in lifestyles you enjoy until you exhaust all meaning to yourself. Then you die and move on. Sometimes you have offspring, sometimes you don't. That's all.

The meaning of life is love.

>>2891697
>>2891695
<what the fuck kind of nonsense is that shit? like all the food and medicine and clothes and cars and electricity and appliances that we need just fall out of the sky while we move money around in a circle scamming each other and gambling on fairy stories? how did we get here? what the hell happened to our common sense, to our fucking sanity? it's not just the ruling class and the one percent who are like this, it's our whole culture, it's a whole world of delusional entitled narcissists who want something for nothing, from the us president who expects a billion dollars every time someone calls him an asshole, to the youtube influencer who expects a free iphone because he dances around in front of a webcam like a circus clown, to the freelance blogger who expects $10/month from every reader for his ai-assisted pseudointellectual drivel, to the typical small business owner who never even shows his face in the store and just hires teenagers and poor immigrants to run it for minimum wage while he collects passive income, to the "tech entrepeneur" who crowdsources free labor for his open-source software project and then sells it off to some big company at the first opportunity. whatever happens to us in the future when this ponzi scheme we call "civilization" collapses, we deserve every bit of it and then some. we deserve to have our faces under the boot for all eternity for this shit.
lol OP, post industrial society is a good thing if machines can do all the work we dont have to do that retarded shit we can just write poetry or something

>>2891786
Dumb post in light of the fact that, as noted, the country everyone outsources to, which has lots of state intervention in the economy, e.g. China, is still not majority manufacturing employment. >>2891929
Bizarre cargo cultism. Perhaps Lenin should've given up on the basis that there had never been a successful socialist revolution prior to his.

>>2891718
>Capitalism is a global system.
The only reason we have this system in place is because people can't be trusted to care for a resource or an asset unless they have a private incentive to do so and it's not right to force them into public service because that would be a form of slavery. Any other system would end up getting corrupted in the capitalist leaning direction unless it's time for it.

>>2892829
>lol OP, post industrial society is a good thing if machines can do all the work we dont have to do that retarded shit we can just write poetry or something
Not if we're all incels, we're getting pruned out then. The society we live in doesn't love individuals at all, gaslighting them instead. The individuals pay services like gyms and salons to maxx attributes to compete for shreds of love and recognition that should be omnipresent anyway.

>>2892835
why are you uneducated rightoid shitting up threads all over the board?

>>2892843
What's erm… what's wrong with what I said?

>>2892851
Private incentives literally put shit in the UK’s water and made train services worse AND more expensive when the government was handling them just fine beforehand. Do you think no public utilities work anywhere?

>>2892853
Okay, so I don't like the idea of sticking private incentives in utilities like water, energy and internet from the get go. I'm just sharing this so you know what kind of normie/outsider you're dealing with.

How do we get people to willingly manage all of this? Ego is pretty much distributed so I'm open to having a convo on this.

Also, I don't know the history of all this getting privatised. Why did the government hand all of this over to private owners?

>>2892853
The UK is a bad example. Nearly all the UKs privatisations were fake, creating regulated monopolies for the purposes of protecting insiders in Britain's class (caste) system. Their incentives are to loot far beyond what any deregulated system would allow.

UK nationalised industries were only little better, even the popular ones like the NHS have a strong malicious streak, and ALL institutions bend to the whims of the ruling clique. If you see the UK more like oligarch era Russia than like a normal country, you'll have a good model. Private Vs public doesn't matter in a society where a narrow ruling clique move seemlessly between both.

>>2892863
To clarify: this is not an unqualified defense of the market. You can have good public industries and bad private ones. But Britain's problems go much deeper, and no matter what configuration you choose, the same narrow set of people will fuck things up. Britain is a country where the equality act designed to protect minority groups is used to strip them of rights! Awful!


But, by the by, UK supermarkets are some of the cheapest in Europe because they're very competitive. (I credit ASDA being owned by yanks and Aldi/Lidl by Germans, plus the main regulations just being dumb planning law.)

>>2892851
basically everything is wrong with your luke warm idealist neo liberal shilling. since you are rambling about 'incentives' once again, i have to assume you are the same bad faith mongrel spamming garbage once again.

fuck you. fuck your incentives. go read a fucking book.

Liberal insanity and it’s consequences has been a disaster for the human race.

Also, post industrial society is a stupid term for people who don’t understand industry in the slightest.

>>2892863
This sounds to me like a massive corruption of "the game" issue rather than a rightoid vs. leftoid economic model issue. Aren't we going through something similarly corrupt with the UK gov seeking to kill YouTube and get people to pay TV license for using YouTube?

>>2892874
I've bookmarked a reddit page with an "orthodox marxism" reading list thank you very much but these things are more or less a join in the midst experimental kind of thing. What do you really mean by "liberal" here?

When I say "incentives" I mean the kind of thing that drives people and trends and that involves economically rewarded behaviour.

Hey man, 👋, I'm not one of those kirk trolls.

>>2892678
>A nailgun requires drastically fewer aggregate human labor hours per nail driven (across its entire supply chain and lifespan) than a hammer.

to make a hammer you forge a hammerhead out of a hunk of steel and then you fit a handle to it, and the work is done. no further external human labor or oversight is needed, if the user whacks his own thumb with the hammer or breaks the handle off by misusing it as a prybar it's the user's own fault.

to make a nailgun you need a team of designers and engineers and fabricators and all kinds of intricate mechanical or electrical components that require vast supply chains to produce or procure, you need testers to ensure the device works reliably under various conditions, you need consultants to ensure the device adheres to proper manufacturing standards and complies with various safety regulations, you need a legal department to deal with inevitable lawsuits from accidents and determining whether they are the result of user error or manufacturing defects, you have to deal with product recalls, etc. electricity can kill people and burn down buildings, compressed air can burst air tanks and blow valves, gunpowder charges can turn poorly-secured pistons into flying projectiles, etc. when you outsource labor out of human hands, you also outsource accountability, when you increase complexity in a system you also increase potential for accident and failure. nothing is free, not energy and not time either, whenever work or man-hours are reduced for one party, some other party has to foot the bill somewhere down the line.

>>2893059
Someone is overwhelmed. Also, legal departments? Gtfo here.

>>2893061

this is the 21st century pal, you can't run a fucking lemonade stand without a legal department, someone will squeeze a lemon and get juice in their eye and sue you for emotional distress.

>>2893065
>this is the 21st century pal
And yet we are all still beholden to liberal stupidity. Legal departments, on a communist leaning site? Really now.
>sue you for emotional distress.
They’re going to sue me? For emotional distress? For money?

>>2893072

you're talking right past me and derailing the discussion, maybe you should actually read the thread and understand the context, it's about whether or not technology and automation and globalization eliminate the need for work or not - my argument is that they don't, that human labor is beholden to the same laws of physics that govern everything else in material reality and work cannot be eliminated and can only be outsourced, that is what the conversation is about.

>>2893083
>you're talking right past me.
No, no. I caught you putting toenail clippings into the recipe, and I caught you having a skill issue with understanding the recipe at all.

You’re argument:
>my argument is that they don't, that human labor is beholden to the same laws of physics that govern everything else in material reality and work cannot be eliminated and can only be outsourced, that is what the conversation is about.

It is rancid. Outsourced to a machine? Sure. But is the human having to work anymore, or not having reduced need to work in spite of the machine? No. And I don’t think anyone was arguing that human labor is not beholden to the laws of physics. It is just that your brain has fallen into the weird pitfall of thinking efficient automation and industry are themselves outside the laws of physics, and so you assume that to be others positions.

something interesting to think about is how during the industrial revolution, stalinist russia got high on the same fumes of technofetishism that capitalist america were getting high on, thinking that the technology was magic and that the massively-increased production came at no cost. both countries set about aggressively machine-plowing all of their fertile grasslands and tearing out all of the grass which acted as the glue that bound the soil together, turning entire regions into fields of loose soil and planting and harvesting only the most profitable cash crops (wheat, corn, and cotton for america, just wheat for russia) which suck all of the nutrients out of the soil and turn it into worthless inorganic dust, resulting in massive crop failure and famine and economic catastrophe in both countries. the two countries may have operated on seemingly contrary ideological frameworks, but under the surface they both shared a much deeper and more fundamental ideology where humans are the masters of nature and human technology has the power to create something out of nothing.

>>2892834
The Chinese revolution also happened when they had an overwhelmingly peasant population, maybe Marx was fundamentally wrong about the industrial proletariat being able to overcome any advanced bourgeois

>>2893107
>The Chinese revolution
Liberal revolution

>>2891695
I want something for nothing, I inherently deserve to have treats without working because it is my human right.

>>2891695
>a "post-industrial society"
It means "we have neo-colonies to do the dirty stuff for us".

>>2893113
It seems only liberals are capable of revolution (so far)

>>2893154
Porkies would export service jobs if they could.

>>2893279
they do (a huge chunk of consultancies have massive numbers of workers in india etc), but people just cascade into more service jobs. that's the beauty of services. human wants are nearly infinite.

>>2891929
>How is manufacturing being replaced by services at all a good thing?
it is neither good nor bad. the operative question is who owns the means of production. service work like the anon said does not mean there is no industry anywhere but being that we are necessarily in a post industrial society in the US, it is necessarily the case that the manufacturing mostly occurs elsewhere, in other countries, that in this country, manufacturing is like an amoeba, relative to service sector work
>There has never been a revolution led by service workers, it was industrial workers and peasants
before the russian revolution, workers had never ever taken power and established a workers state. before the russian revolution, peasants had never been a revolutionary force for a socialist revolution.

>>2901903
While you're on the right track, even this overstates the case. For all the rust-belt whining the US is still the second largest industrial economy after China in terms of both production and exports. Even for relatively low value-added stuff like steel, it's the third largest producer in the world. It's 6th for coal (behind Australia, Russia, Indonesia, India, and China.) but the largest producer of petroleum and natural gas. And it's the largest agricultural exporter in the world to boot. (Third largest producer overall, behind India and China, which have 3-4 times as many mouths to feed.)

Fundamentally the big shift has been mechanisation rather than outsourcing. The massive decline of the agricultural workforce wasn't paired with a collapse in food production, and the massive decline in the manufacturing workforce hasn't been paired with a massive decline in manufacturing output. It really is just a fetish object to imagine the thing standing between the average American prole and his due is the decision to outsource screwing the heads onto Barbie dolls to China, as though he'd be next in line for that job instead of a machine if it was brought stateside.

>>2891695
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.AGR.EMPL.ZS

I'm optimistic.

>>2892120
>Who do I have to fuck to get out of this movie?
You don't. Just close the incognito tab.