/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

you would get sodomized and tortured in a gulag in the USSR if you were "anti-immigration" and treated as fascist.
China sent tanks to crush anti-african rioters and academic elitists in 1989.
Only western bourgeois scum treat their racism as a valid view, and only bourgeois will treat the issues with capitalism and employement/scabs by bashing on immigrants.

Fucking DIE

>>2891908
People like you are why parties like AfD grows and grows. wake the fuck up

People moving from the sticks to cities or a different province or state is also migration.
Do you want a return to serfdom and feudalism?

>>2891921
This thread is about immigration, not migration

>Why is the western left so hesitant to give up their pro-immigration stance
Leftists aren't communists but a good reason to be pro-immigration is that otherwise you are a reformist and are causing intra-proletarian conflict, the very vast majority of migrants become and are proles. You give up on porky not on migrants.
>it's the main driver of normies switching to far-right parties
It is the main space goat, it would have happened regardless of immigrants or not, Japan also got a far-right party without having so many boats, only a handful of migrants, eastern European far-right parties have also been growing
>>2891924
Immigration and emigration are types of migrations, if you took a geography or history class in high school you would have heard about the rural exodus or the emigration to the cities, rural immigrants, etc…

>>2891924
They result in the same thing, an expanded reserve army of labor and more potential scabs thus lower wages.

>>2891908
>you would get sodomized and tortured in a gulag in the USSR if you were "anti-immigration" and treated as fascist.
The USSR had a very conservative immigration policy.

>>2891946
Not the same as rightards saying DEPORT THEM ALL 1488

>>2891949
>not the same
What's the difference?
Why would a Communist country resist immigration?

>>2891908
You do realize that nowadays, countries like bourgeois Israel are using mass migration as a warfare tactic against Spain for recognizing Gaza using their Moroccan allies?

>>2891866
>normies
try referencing social class at least once in your post next time

>>2891866
ONLY principled Marxist view of immigration: Not my problem

>>2891908
The USSR ethnically cleansed Kazakhs and China covertly supported apartheid south africa doe

>>2891959
Are you confusing Kazakhs with Crimean Tartars and Volga Germans?

>>2891961
No they ethnically cleansed Kazakhs too alongside every east asian minority. It's enough to confuse you.

>>2891966
I think you’re confusing the USSR with Tsarist Russia who basically did do Manifest Destiny going eastward

>>2891866
If we give up migrants then what will be next? Trans rights I assume? But if we're just going to tail public opinion then why be socialist in the first place? It's not particularly popular either

the right opposes both immigration and immigrants. the left may or may not oppose immigration but why tf would you have to oppose the immigrants themselves, even in the most extreme if they /are/ scabs then why would you give into the trap that's been set and empower the far-right, historically this always solved by the same thing you claim to want to pursue, which is working class unity in pursuit of shared goals and interests. this argument always boils down to saying that the domestic capitalist can be swayed to hire native born workers only without any drawback. how about you just shut the fuck up and fight with immigrant workers instead of doing the bidding of the counter-elite, you fucking sad sack of shit

>>2891974
The working class is its own biggest enemy

>>2891974
i mean fight WITH immigrant workers AGAINST the ruling class instead, if that wasn't clear.
>b-b-b-b-b-but muh cultural clashes
SHUT THE FUCK UP AND FIGHT FOR WORKING CLASS INTERESTS GOD FUCKING DAMMIT, SHIT IS GETTING WORSE AND WORSE AND ALL YOU REACTIONARY FUCKERS WANT IS MORE HANDOUTS FROM THE VERY BOSSES AND RULERS YOU CLAIM TO DESPISE, JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP

>>2891979
so the fuck what? every class fights among itself, just look at the silly fights between Economist editors and Elon Musk. time doesn't stand still and there's no reason these things are set in stone, so again just shut the fuck up, stop whining about le bad immigrants or workers you can't get along with, and find something to fight for in common with other people for once in your pathetically atomized shitty life you absolute fucking cretinous sludge biomass subhuman

>>2891866
Arguing with made up western leftists in your head again OP?

>>2891985
Nah fuck you

>>2891959
Didnt happen btw, no historical evidence of "targeted ethnically cleansing" other than anti-communist tropes, even the chechen deportations are more valid becaude of front proximity and fear of collaborations.

>>2891946
Rightoids are implicit when talking about "immigration", they will not talk about the processes or what lead to it but as a codegate to "browns in my land"
>>2891951
That was not a mass migration event btw, it was israeli hybrid warfare to overthrow the (highly impotent social democrat) government, none of the morroccan youth actually wanted to move to ceuta they wanted quick bucks and were paid to cause chaos.

>>2891986
Dont underestimate how white and privileged /leftypol/ is.

>why is [loaded ragebait question based on flimsy premise]
we have this thread every day

don't worry poltard, you're already getting everything you want. far right parties will fund a police state to gun down "migrants" instead of dealing with the root cause of migration (capitalism, climate change, imperialism) and when they're done killing all the migrants they'll turn the guns on you. and you'll say thank you for the strong borders. maybe the borders will get even stronger. maybe you won't be allowed to "immigrate" to a richer province, town, or even neighbhorhood. would you like that? would you? maybe they'll put you in a little camp somewhere where you can't leave. because leaving would be immigration.

>>2891990
So… why did the USSR have a conservative immigration policy?

>>2892001
Being under constant siege and existential threat lends itself to both social and political conservatism

>>2892004
So the USSR was both Communist and conservative?

>>2892016
Yeah, conservative is an attitude, not a politics

>>2892018
So, regulating immigration isn't a conservative policy?

>>2892024
Conservatives hate regulation of any kind outside of the father commanding his domicile

>>2892024
there's a difference between protecting a socialist state from brain drain and imperialist infiltration, and protecting an imperial core settler colony from proles.

>>2891866
>don't you understand if you were a little nicer to the Anti Migrant Death Squads people would VOOT for more succdem reformists
kill yourself. Fix pic related and the migrants will stop moving around. People stay where they were born when you don't bomb them, sanction them, coup them, steal their natural resources. But if you create an empire, don't be surprised when the people who mine the quartz in your computer want to show up.

>>2891866
>cheap labor
read marx

>>2892030
For the countries in blue how much would they decrease by?

>>2892028
So just to clarify, restricting immigration is good when Communists do it, but bad when Conservatives do it? It's the same policy, but one has a red flag behind it.

>>2892032
Not much, only thing that might suffer is access to uber cheap consumer goods

>>2892039
The motivations and dynamics are different. Had the Soviet Union won the cold war it would be a much more open and chill society obviously

>>2892046
Did Stalin also criminalise homosexuality because of le imperialists?

>>2891866
>I must become racist and shut out fellow proles, so I can beg porky for higher wages
Can't build communism on a foundation of shit.

>>2892053
He still carried some prejudice from his orthodox christian days, if they had more time they would become chill about it like Cuba

>>2891866

1. Because it isn't. Voters do not vote based around real issues, they choose parties like they choose soda. Fundamentally the growth of the far right is rooted in voters switching from centre-right parties to harder stuff, combined with a general polarisation of voting behaviour by education. Electoral politics is more or less a personality test.
   
   
2. "Normies" don't exist. No marketer goes "yeah, our product is basically targeting 'normies'", not even Coca-Cola does that, and Coca Cola's target market really is "everybody". The product sold by the left is: "better things are possible", the product sold by the centrist-liberals is "you are so much smarter and impartial than everyone else", the product sold by the centre-right is "softly spoken racism and prejudice", and the product sold by the far-right is "open racism and prejudice, kill everyone who isn't me."
   
   
3. Even if I am wrong on the above point, and I am not, empirical evidence shows that when socdems adopt right-wing rhetoric on immigration, it does not boost their support. Instead, it hurts their support. See for example the near implosion of UK labour after their leader started quoting Enoch Powell in an attempt to bring "back" voters who had "defected" to ReformUK. (Who were not, in the main, ex-Labour voters at all. They were ex-Conservatives! But a lot of ex-Labour voters switched to supporting the Green party after Labour decided it was going to be ReformUK 2.0!)
   

If you want coca cola, you buy coca cola, you don't go "well, Dr. Pepper has changed their recipe and they promise that 90% of people can't tell the difference between it and coke"

>>2891908
Based

>>2891924
They are the same thing (Britain, as you may have heard, did not have organised border controls until 1905. China, as you may have heard, still has some internal migration controls.) and some high profile right wing thinkers and "intellectuals" (iirc Dominic Cummings for one) have realised that if you want to stop leftism, you have to tie people down to their place of birth because otherwise the mere experience of moving around nudges people in a more open-minded direction with a wider circle of empathy. They think it's a mistake that you can leave your dreary rural shithole to enjoy relationships of choice with people you like rather than relationships of obligation with people you can't stand.

>>2892053
no and that's a separate issue you're pretending is the same to justify being retarded

>>2892032
>For the countries in blue how much would they decrease by?
by whatever amount that allows them to still live 19x better than russians currently do

>>2891866
Im kinda neutral on this issue because its IDPOL. Danish social democrats have common sense policy on this as it it prevents fascoids from chimping out or getting majority in parliament.

>>2892039
>So just to clarify, restricting immigration is good when Communists do it, but bad when Conservatives do it? It's the same policy, but one has a red flag behind it.
yes. unironically yes. it is good when the downtrodden use violence to free themselves and it is bad when the elites use violence to keep others downtrodden
>but they're both using hecking violence
wow when you abstract everything like that you end up with christian morality which asks slaves to turn the other cheek and obey their earhtly masters

>>2891866
what do you even want? give more budget to border pigs? that doesn't fix the underlying problem

what's up my fellow prolevolk

>>2892097
herrenprole in this context fits better I'd say

>>2892095
>Restricting immigration is good when it's done with a red flag.
You're a lost cause.

>>2891908
>you would get sodomized and tortured in a gulag in the USSR if you were "anti-immigration" and treated as fascist.
You needed permission and passport to leave your local area in USSR. This was not some kind of immigrant utopia youre wishing it was.

>>2892107
high testosterone levels, you wouldnt get it

>>2891967
>confusing tsarist russia with the ussr
No I think they're pretty similar. They both invaded Iran with the Anglos and caused a famine too. Both joined WW on the side of western imperialists.

>>2891866
>muh migrants
Man i hope you dogfuckers get flooded by africans and it plays out as the fantasies you keep crying about

>>>2892111
Yeah that's the funny thing I notice liberals always say "well what if we had internal borders?" and can imagine plenty of people saying damn that would be based. Imagine if Texas and the Pacific Northwest could keep out immigrants from Commiefornia or if the Midwest could keep out all the refugees who are gonna flee the sunbelt when all the water evaporates.

Or just think of this: Imagine if you had AMERICA on your doorstep. Still think infinite immigration is a good idea?

>>2892039
>restricting immigration is good when Communists do it, but bad when Conservatives do it?
Yeah so it mass surveillance and putting down strikes and breaking up unions and selling commodities on the world market and ethnic cleansing. If you thought anyone had principles you were wrong.

>>2892149
>If you thought anyone had principles you were wrong.
You might not have principles, but many people do.

There isn't an iota of relation to the communist movement held by importing millions of third worlders into your country for absolutely no reason other than leftists and progressives demand it as some moral imperative. Leftists who make this giant hissyfit over why muh immigrants and mass immigration need to be unconditionally accepted at all times in and of itself are unrelated to the communist movement and you can help said movement by spamming leftists with gore and doxxing them until they kill themselves
Obviously the proletariat is blind to any national distinctions because proletarians are the same everywhere and all hold the same historical and social significance since they're the agent that completes the communist movement, so kvetching about immigrant workers being reactionary or whatever is as meaningful as if you kvetched about native workers, but even with the abolition of value and commodity production and etc. in mind there's still no material incentive for proletarians to just demand that third worlders get imported into xyz countries that isn't a demand relegated to the demos or anything
The USSR and PRC avoided having mass immigration anyways because their foreign policy prioritized the development of these stable national industrial autarkies in the third world countries that cooperated with them so that nobody had any material incentive to start flooding into other countries to escape poverty or war or anything, and even with the abolition of national borders and moreover rendering the entire world the object of human will such that anyone can go to any place as they wish, there's still a material prerequisite for the social appropriation and development of the forces of production to facilitate such a thing

>>2892094
Danish socdems lost 12 seats at the last election while the Green Left, Red Greens, and Social Liberals gained 10, with the Green Left in particular shooting to second place up from fourth. e.g. as in the British case, the SocDems shot themselves in the foot and bled support to their left.
Meanwhile the far-right Citizens party got into parliament with 4 seats and the DPP gained 11 seats, mostly from more moderate right parties (Venstre down 5, Moderates down 2), so it didn't even work to keep fascists chimping out. They kept chimping out!

Analysis of this problem will always be hobbled so long as it's based on this idea of the median voter being alienated by immigrants in a way that lets you do 1990s style triangulation on the issue, rather than the main cause of the far right being the radicalisation of already-right-wing voters who have always had a fundamental underlying desire to be nasty but have recently learned that there are few limits on how far you can go pandering to the base, particularly because the centre left are cowardly and incompetent by comparison, over-cautious about similarly radicalising leftwards.

the whole "debate"about emigration
>movement of labor power inside arbitrary circle good
>movement of labor power inside-outside circle bad
literally nationalism
and there aren't millions of immigrants jfc you have any idea what millions of migrants look like, you get a couple thousand a year, and even more so remigration is the official stance of the EU for some time now like wtf do these rightoids think is happening
swtg all of them are some variation of psychologically disturbed individuals living in their headspace

>>2891924
The impact's the same.

>>2892087
>"Normies" don't exist.
This. Really needs to be emphasized more. This is a narrative construction and what people tend to do is say normies believe in something and then they smuggle in some normative judgement about what that is. Or there might be "normies" but not in the way that hyper-politicized people with political identities on the internet think in terms of some inert mass that can be pushed this way or that. What we seem to have is really a lot of hyper-fragmented / hyper-pluralistic stuff. It's the same with culture where the boundaries of popular / mainstream culture and subcultures has just collapsed. It's like how Marvel movies make billions of dollars worldwide but there's also a fandom around it, like Comic-Con. Or heavy metal music. It takes the form of an edgy subculture but the people who go to heavy metal concerts are normies.

>>2892172
>swtg all of them are some variation of psychologically disturbed individuals living in their headspace
This really is the fundamental point to understand. The average anti-immigration voter is not, in fact, satisfied by anti-immigration policies (has the UK labour government got any credit for slashing immigration to such an extent that there might even be net-negative immigration by the end of this year?), they are driven by psychological neuroses. As immigration falls you quickly see the next step come up: "remigration" for people born in this country to immigrant parents and so on.

The mirror image of this (that I admit it speaks to something not quite right with me) is that I would be quite content living in a country with zero immigration but very vocally pro-migration politics. I am psychologically satisfied with the idea of being nice and tolerant, would vote for a government that is selling that brand, and support a country that presents that sort of image to the world, even if it's ultimately hollow.
(This approach would be bad economically and stupid parochial nationalism practically, of course, but I we do not feel aggregate economic statistics in the way that I can feel these obvious brand moves, just as we do not feel the garbage nutritional content of Coca Cola emotionally yet we understand that it's the go-to default soft drink in most of the world…)

>>2892204
>rape white women.
They should rape me instead

>>2892221
erm… hi… is it ok if i do?🥹👉👈

>>2892122
>Both joined WW on the side of western imperialists.
sharties pretending to be leftcoms really show their ass as soon as ww2 comes up, god damn

>>2892163
>There isn't an iota of relation to the communist movement held by importing millions of third worlders into your country for absolutely no reason other than leftists and progressives demand it as some moral imperative.
this is an insane strawman. imperialist countries pour billions into militarized borders and the migrants get through anyway. sometimes the CBP in america literally buys drugs and sells drugs to cartels . is it because the powerless and weak "western left" let the migrants in like your ilk always insist? no, it's because porky wants "cheap labor" (trying not to expand that into a whole paragraph) from the periphery. you're willing to admit this when you can rhetorically reframe it in terms of some kind of hypothetical alliance to kick out migrants "in the name of workers" but as soon as we see through your bullshit you go back to saying the commies let all the brownskins in. No. imperialism and climate change makes them flee their countries, and no mattrer how much money you throw at the biggest fascist knucklheads in the 1st world police state, they'll still get through anyway? because you REFUSE to fix the underlying problems (imperialism, climate change) since that would mean a loss of political power for you and your ilk. You know this so you hold onto hope that you can keep oppressing people even as the whole world gets shittier that way you can at least be king of the dung heap, rather than equals in a better world.

>>2892149
>Commiefornia
ah yes, noted communist gavin newsom. kys

>>2892149
> or if the Midwest could keep out all the refugees who are gonna flee the sunbelt when all the water evaporates.
so you admit that all this migration is caused by climate change and imperialism and that anti immigration is really about locking people into kill zones and not about protecting muh imperial core workers from muh job stealers. fucking finally

>>2892264
What?

>>2892321
saying USSR "joined the World War on the side of Western imperialists" is just really telling on yourself. as if operation barbarossa wasn't a genocidal campaign against the USSR that necessitated self defense.

>>2891990
What do you have against DSA? You need to be banned.

>>2892494
I'm ANPRIM, but my stance on immigration is that freedom of movement is a human right and there should be no borders. However, the current waves of immigration are demonstrably linked to Israel depopulating the Middle East. First in 2023, Hamas invaded Israel and slayed 1,200 people, injuring over 3,000 others and taking over 250 hostages. Then Israel retaliated with Operation Swords of Iron War and killed or maimed hundreds of thousands of people, and thousands of fighters, killed 1,000 more in expanded West Bank settlements, flattened all of Gaza in the process, displacing and starving millions, taking more than 12,000 prisoner. Simultaneously, this has also been the deadliest war for Israel in 50 years since the 1973 Yom Kippur War, w/ 400 IDF deaths and over 2,000 injured. Then the Houthis retaliated, hijacking an Israeli cargo ship in response to the Gaza genocide, taking 25 hostages (who were later released). Then Louay Alnaji kills Paul Kessler at a pro-Israel rally, striking him in the face with a microphone, causing him to hit his head.

In 2024, 3 US soldiers were killed in a Houthi drone strike in Jordan. Then 2 US Navy SEALs drowned in the Arabian Sea off the coast of Somalia while en route to seize Iranian supplies going to the Houthis in North Yemen. Then Hezbollah drone striked the house of Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu, causing minor damage. He was absent at the time of the attack. Then Thomas Crooks shoots Donald Trump in the head, nicking his right ear, before opening fire on the audience, killing one audience member, injuring 2 others before being eliminated by a Secret Service sniper. Then Aaron Bushnell self-immolates in Washington, D.C. in protest against the state-sanctioned genocide in Gaza. Then Bashar Al-Assad was sent fleeing to Russia after coalition forces took over Syria under the new leadership of Ahmed Al-Sharaa.

In 2025, the 12-day war happens. Israel attacks Iran, killing 1,000 people (including Mohammad Bagheri, Gholam Ali Rashid, Hossein Salami and Amir Ali Hajizadeh), injuring 5,000 others (including Masoud Pezeshkian). Iran responds with drone strikes and ballistic missiles, killing 33 people, injuring 3,000 others. The US dropped a B2 bomb on the Fordow nuclear power plant. Then Mohamed Sabry Soliman attacks a pro-Israel rally in Boulder, Colorado, killing 82-year-old Karen Diamond, injuring 12 others using molotov cocktails and a flamethrower. Then Elias Rodriguez kills 2 Israeli nationals at the Jewish museum in Washington, D.C.

In 2026, the Iran war reignites, w/ the US, Israel and Ukraine killing a total of 3,000 people, injuring 12,000 others. Iran retaliates with a hailstorm of drones and missiles shot at every US base in the region until America ran out of expensive Patriot interceptors and called for a ceasefire, only for Iran to not give a fuck. Several radar and satellite systems were destroyed, costing the US so much money in war costs, that they expanded the BBB Act to add trillions more to the national defense budget. And, Iran has blocked and mined the Strait of Hormuz until further notice, causing global oil, fertilizer and other materials to experience a supply crisis, the worst America has seen since 1979 when the Islamic Revolution happened after the Shahs got kicked out. 10 US soldiers were killed by Iran + 9 others dead by accidents/natural causes + 1 civilian contractor killed, 600 others injured. Iran also killed 31 people in Israel, caused lots of damage to the point of media blackouts in Israel, injured 6,000 others. Then Israel kicks the hornets nest and invades Lebanon, killing 4,000 civilians and 1,000 fighters, injuring 12,000 civilians. Israel has used Gaza strategies in Lebanon, besieging cities and invading the Southern Border to gain control over southern Lebanon, eliminate Hezbollah and eventually, take the entire Gaza Strip and West Bank as well. 40 Israeli soldiers were killed + 1 demolitions contractor and over 1,000 injured. Hezbollah has utilized small FPV fiber optic drone warfare. Then Ayman Mohamed Ghazali rams his car into a synagogue and opens fire inside the building, injuring 1 security guard and 63 law enforcement officers before killing himself. Then Ndiaga Diagne opens fire in an Austin, Texas bar, killing 3 people, injuring 15 others before being shot dead by police.