Literally everything i learn about trotsky just makes him seem more and more based.
Why do ml's still seethe at him? Because he lost a power struggle against stalin over a hundred years ago??
Hes the only reason there was even a ussr to fight over in the first place.
Tsmt
Retarded bait, trotsky and his ideological hellspawn were/are retards
im not even a trotskyist but stalinoids have trotsky derangement syndrome. he obviously never worked with nazi germany and u just sound like a schizo for implying that
muh stalin molotov ribbentrop is the 2020s version of
>nazis were called national socialists, checkmate
Mods when will you change the website's name to libpol2 or ultrapol?
>>2897308>>2897309trotsky didn't work with nazi germany, but also the molotov ribbentrop pact should not be taken out of context, because that only serves a liberal capitalist narrative about WW2
>>2897311ironically I made this image, not to shit on Stalin, but to point out the stupidity of taking the 1920s comintern line about "social fascism" seriously when the comintern itself abandoned it within a decade. in hindsight I should have been more careful. the context of the original conversation this image was made for has been lost.
I'm tired of "trotskyists" shitting on "stalinists" and vice versa, I'm tired of ML being weak, I'm tired of "socdems" in the imperial core betraying the working class, but I'm also tired of reactionaries pretending like socdems are the second coming of marxism leninism, and I'm also tired of MLs pretending every socdem is a rosa killing freikorps. everyone seems really addicted to exaggeration.
I gained inordinate amount of respect for Ol’ Trot when I discovered that his first published text was a scathing critique of Neet-shi
>>2897311This is what true internationalism looks like señor
>>2897311two retards fighting. But seriously, most MLs seem not to mind his theory from what I have seen. But when it comes to his followers…. most seem to agree that they can be obnoxious. My impression overall is that trotsky derangement syndrom is real, especially with some MLs but there seems to be a large "silent" majority that really doesnt care that much about him whereas most Trotskyist (that I see online at least) often invoke Stalin because idk. Like imagine you actually read decent analysis on some workers struggle on wsws, which does happen from time to time, and then… for literally no reason: Stalin or Stalinism gets mentioned… like lol. Of course there is a sorta bias to it because Stalin "won" against Trotsky but still. And I truly believe that Stalin and Trotsky were a lot closer with their theory than people on either side seem to admit.
>>2897330What is this cope image? Funny how stalinloids cant even defend the ribbentrop pact so they have to deflect to liberal countries saying "see they did it too!!"
The molotov ribbentrop pact was purely an move of opportunism from stalin so he could take over eastern europe without inteference then watch as germany goes to fight the western powers and bleeds itself to death like in ww1 except it didnt work out like that and oops stalin just ended up enabling hitler and giving him an opportunity to invade the ussr
>>2897336The same army that invaded poland alongside nazi germany.
>>2897362Im sure the Polish people where acting completely innocently when it comes to there Jewish neighbors.
>>2897371Kek is this the excuse stalinoids came up with to cope?
Stalin beat the nazis. He did total nazi death. But muh molotov.
Trotsky is a "fuck every AES nation" proto neocon and his defenders use reddit liberal arguments unironically.
>>2897371the polish government and Polish state didn't exist when the soviets crossed the once polish border btw
>>2897449Instead of making a bogus pact to stall a couple of years and prepare for war he shouldve done the right and moral thing by allowing the nazis to steamroll everyone. Checkmate Stalinoid.
>>2897449Yes? Why cant stalinoids do nothing but deflect to others to excuse stalins actions?
>>2897456>by allowing the nazis to steamroll everyoneIt is precicely because of the molotov ribbentrop pact that allowed the nazis to steamroll everyone.
>>2897305>Why do ml's still seethe at him?because marxism-leninisn is an ideology made up by counter-revolutionary bureacrats specifically designed to cope about trotsky being right about the necessity of permanent revolution
>>2897416>Stalin beat the nazis.wrong, all shitalin did was allow the nazis to do irreparable damage to the USSR just for them to be later integrated into the most effective NATO reich that ended up finishing up the job
the moment the USSR decided to turn inward with the "socialism in one country" meme everything was lost
>>2897371So Stalinism isn't about protecting the working class; it's about historiKKKal justice.
Got it, just don't call yourselves leftists anymore.
>>2897416>Trotsky is a "fuck every AES nation"Not really. He criticized the USSR but still considered it a worker's state and said that it would be imperative for it to win a war against Germany. "Fuck AES" was a later innovation of *some* Trotskyists while others actually went in exactly the opposite direction.
Trotsky was right about Chiang Kai Shek but the party didn’t take him seriously on it which led to far more deaths in China than necessary and indirectly contributed to the Sino Soviet Split which arguably doomed humanity to extinction
>>2897359So instead Stalin should have just allowed Germany to swallow up all of Poland & leave the reactionary baltics countries alone?
Or maybe go to war early with Germany in a weaker position & worse borders?
Trotsky himself wouldn't have tolerated your completely deranged anti-strategic views.
>>2897497>So instead Stalin should have just allowed Germany to swallow up all of Poland & leave the reactionary baltics countries alone?Germany w couldnt have ever done those things if they didnt have guarantees from stalin that he wouldnt invade them if he did.
>>2897503Lady, you're retarded.
>>2897503considering Germany did operation barbarossa just after, I don't think Hitler was that interested in "guarantees"
>>2897509He was. After defeating poland germany had to shift the majroity of their forces west to defeat the allies hitler trusted stalins guarantee that he wouldnt invade their flank and thus was able to defeat the alliesan and then turn all of germanys attention towards the invasion of the soviet union.
>>2897508Nah im not stalin i dont sign and believe in treaties of non-agression with facists especially from one whos autobiography literally states he wants to invade the ussr and turn it all into living space.
>>2897509Knowing that he didn't need to worry about a Soviet attack in the east was pretty clearly influential on Hitler's decision to risk (and then fight) a war with Britain and France. That being said, the only reason the Soviets signed that treaty was because Britain and France refused to sign an anti-German treaty with the USSR. I'd say Molotov-Ribbentrop was making the best of a bad situation.
>>2897518>He was. Not really. He was possessed by the idea of emulating Frederick the Great and thought providence would see him through any multi front confrontation. The idea that a piece of paper would protect his rear never entered his mind.
>>2897520Also worth noting France had the biggest and estimated best army in Europe at the time, literally no one expected France to fall as fast as it did.
>>2897494trve anti-fascist praxis
>>2897520>Britain and France refused to sign an anti-German treaty with the USSRBecause stalin wanted to send troops trough poland to fight germany which the poles absolutely would never allow under any circumstance.
>>2897519Toots, every post you make is dumber than the last
>>2897527Poland was fascist and got what was coming to them in any case.
>>2897530They still are, in fact I’d say they never stopped
>The idea that a piece of paper would protect his rear never entered his mind
Then he never wouldve proposed the molotov ribbentrop pact
>>2897530How come ML's are exactly like liberals in the sense that they dont even know what facism even means ideologically.
>>2897518>then turn all of germanys attention towards the invasion of the soviet union.Not all of Germany's attention. Some of their attention had to be redirected to the Balkans to deal with ᴉuᴉlossnW's fiasco there. In addition, their second front against Britain was non-trivial. Germany was full of problems even before operation barbarossa.
The problem really is that Stalin assumed that Hitler was a rational statesman and he wouldn't do something absolutely insane like add a war with Russia to his already immense problems simply for ideological / non-logical / rational reasons.
Trvth trotsky was a irl giga
>>2897536Fascism is just liberalism with an edgy aesthetic though
>>2897527Yeah well that was pretty stupid of them wasn't it? Iirc Stalin also offered for Poland to join the alliance but they refused.
>>2897544They might have said yes but they were in the middle of screwing a lightbulb
>>2897555Screen door on a submarine and do forth.
Japan and Germany signed the anti-comintern pact in 1936, three years later the Nazis unilaterally signed the treaty with the soviet communists completely shocking japanese leadership and delaying the planned invasion of siberia. molotovribbentrop was a huge blunder for hitler. this is all in Molotovs memoirs
>>2897536Poland was fascist and got what they deserved enjoy thy L
>>2897567I don't think millions of Polish peasants and workers deserved to be exterminated just because they were led by retarded fascists.
>>2897568They should have supported the soviets more and overthrew their government in the anti-soviet war. If they don't like the results of concentration camps maybe they shouldn't have let themselves be lead by thr government that built them.
>>2897584It's the same for the Germans. Did the "civilians" in dresden deserve it? Well sorry, but if they didn't want their streets to run knee deep with boiling human fat then maybe they shouldn't have let themselves be lead by the party promising them totallen krieg then huh
>>2897601>Damn dude by that logic every Russian peasant that died in a famine or was disappeared by the Okhrana before 1917 had it coming.If they're killed by a fascist state they're doing nothing to oppose or undermine then yeah they have no one to blame for it but themselves.
>>2897590Now apply this to gaza
>>2897633The same gaza that's been resisting their fascist Israeli oppressors, unlike the comprador PA in the west bank?
Eventually Iranian missiles are going to reduce Israel to a wasteland and all the Israeli "workers" that lifted not a finger to stop it will deserve their death and misery.
>>2897644There’s gonna be a truth and reconciliation process that ends up benefiting everyone except the Israeli bourgeois
>>2897646The process will be ballistic missiles called truth and drones called reconciliation reducing the israelis to piles of gore and smoldering viscera.
>>2897655Those that survive will either flee to wherever their grandparents came from or learn to live with Arabs as neighbors with equal rights, it’ll all work out in the end, that’s what I’m choosing to believe
>>2897644>Eventually Iranian missiles are going to reduce Israel to a wasteland and all the Israeli "workers" that lifted not a finger to stop it will deserve their death and misery.Lmao at the cope gazans will keep exterminated and you wont do shit.
>>2897487shartymoid who isn't a leftist: you're not leftists because you like a communist leader
>>2897795shartymoid who isn't a leftist: you're not a leftist because… uhhhh. you just aren't okay?
>>2897359it's not a cope at all. stalin's rationale is not what you say it is. he knew hitler would attack eventually. molotov ribbentrop was to buy time to move factories east out of the range of the luftwaffe, and the invasion of poland was to move the eventual front line against the germans further to the west. it was a hard choice
Trotsky did nothing wrong
>>2897536What's your definition?
>>2897644fair… if workers in fascist countries aren't workers then there are no workers in NATO or 5 eyes
>>2897305take into consideration trotsky is miles better than trotskyts who are famously known for endlessly splitting parties, sexually assaulting their own militants and inventing neoconservatism
>>2897362you mean liberated and blocked nazi expansion
>>2897459idk if you know this but nazi germany lost the ww2
Trotsky was based until that stupid power struggle, which was completely unnecessary. It's his belligerent westoid followers who suck so much and just can't refrain from attacking and smearing MLs, usually in tandem with westoid anti-communists of all sorts.
However, to be fair it's gotten recently a lot better over here, for the moment at least WSWS and their local party offshoot seem to have set aside their sectarian antics a bit in favour of being less concerned with throwing shit at the USSR's "bureaucracy" and MLs together with liberals. Right now they are more concerned with actual communist stuff, like opposition to liberal warmongering. It's almost like they realized that in fact the bourgeoisie is the enemy of the workers, not fellow communists.
>>2897990Online sectarian trots will never be relevant because of this.
If you want to know what a trot government looks like when it gains power look to Tony Blair government, hes a self described trot.
There is a strong tradition of neo conservatives who are trots and they tend to expose in some way internalised anti communist propaganda.
Of course in real life I meet plenty of trots who don't even know they are meant to hate MLs, this is mostly a pre-soviet archives bring released position, which shows how behind the ones in this thread are.
The “Trotsky was based until he lost the power struggle” explanation is pretty much the least Marxist way possible to understand the dispute. Trotsky was obviously not some random liberal opportunist. He was a major revolutionary, helped organize the Red Army, played a significant role in the October Revolution, and understood the necessity of proletarian power. Pretending otherwise is just sectarian brainrot. But none of that means his later political line was correct. The actual disagreement was over how the revolution could survive and develop under conditions of civil war, economic devastation, international isolation, a tiny and exhausted proletariat, and the failure of the European revolutions Marxists had expected to break out.
>he's the only reason there was even a USSR to fight over
This is retarded heroic individualism. The Soviet state was produced by the Bolshevik Party and the revolutionary movement of millions of workers, soldiers, and peasants. Trotsky's role was enormous, especially in the Red Army, but the revolution wasn't Minecraft where Trotsky placed the USSR block and Stalin inherited the save file.
As for why MLs still criticize him, it's because they don't regard the October period as the end of the argument. They think Trotsky's later positions on party leadership, Soviet development, the international revolution, and the political struggle inside the USSR contained serious strategic errors. Whether you agree with that assessment is another question, but that's the argument. And there's an irony here: Trotsky himself spent decades arguing that politics couldn't be reduced to personalities. So turning him into “the cool revolutionary Stalin personally fucked over” is actually a pretty shitty way of understanding Trotsky. You can think Trotsky was right on some questions, wrong on others, and still recognize that he was one of the most important revolutionary figures of the 20th century.
You don't have to turn him into a saint or Stalin into a demon to study the fucking history.
>>2898097>Trotsky was obviously not some random liberal opportunist. bro wasn't even a bolshevik at the time of the Feb revolution. he was a bandwagoner that got lucky he got to be in the power structure at all
>there are "people" here who still think "socialism in one country" works
why is the average leftoid so fucking lobotomized?
>>2898105>bandwagoner who got luckyHe had already been a major revolutionary figure for years, had been imprisoned and exiled by the Tsarist regime, had led the Petrograd Soviet in 1905, and was politically moving toward the Bolsheviks before 1917. Lenin and the Bolsheviks weren't recruiting some random dude who wandered into Smolny in October and asked for a job. If anything, the more interesting criticism is: why did a revolutionary with Trotsky's enormous abilities spend so much of his earlier career fighting Lenin's conception of the party before eventually joining it? That's a much more substantive criticism than “lol he wasn't Bolshevik in February.”
>>2898107Permanent Revolution in an age of nuclear weapons isn’t gonna work either
>>2898111>why did a revolutionary with Trotsky's enormous abilities spend so much of his earlier career fighting Lenin's conception of the party before eventually joining it?his revolutionary instincts told him the seeds of the stalinoid cuck out were already there
>>2897308Is this a bait too or a serious take?
>>2898111The short answer is that he was a proto-Nazi and committed Zionist primarily driven by a genocidal hatred of Russians. He was effectively the Zelensky of his day
>>2898123Why would Lenin allow him into the party at all if this was the case? Were they dumb? Tricked? Did they not care?
>>2898123ukraine collapse status?
>>2898123This is the official Russian Government and Russian Nationalist line on Trotsky btw, as can be seen by the Trotsky (2017) 8-episode TV show. It's unfortunate that Russian MLs also turned off their brains and go along with the hate. Trotsky wasn't a traitor and if he was in power chances are Hitler would never have taken power, since Trotsky was one of the first to recognize the growing danger of fascism.
>>2898135>Trotsky wasn't a traitor and if he was in power chances are Hitler would never have taken powerWTF, what? Maybe he wasn't a traitor but he wasn't a magician either. How is he going to stop Hitler from rising to power in another country?
Hitler rose to power because of circumstances in Germany: the great depression, the treaty of versailles, occupation of the ruhr, fear of communism, German racism and anti-semitism, and many other things.
You can't just put Trotsky in power and magically change history. He could have made things worse its all nonsense speculation. In many sci-fi stories changing the timeline makes things worse.
>>2898135>if he was in power chances are Hitler would never have taken powerderanged
>>2898121Trotsky's opposition to Lenin's party conception did rest partly on a real fear: that a highly centralized revolutionary organization could become detached from the working class and eventually produce bureaucratic domination. He wasn't pulling that concern out of his ass. The famous dispute over party organization and substitutionism existed well before Stalin had any meaningful political dominance. The problem is that jumping from “Trotsky identified a genuine danger” to “therefore his revolutionary instincts foresaw Stalinism” is hindsight doing a lot of fucking work. Lenin himself was perfectly capable of recognizing bureaucratization as a danger. By 1922–23 he was explicitly worrying about the growth of the state bureaucracy, the weakness of proletarian institutions, and the concentration of administrative power. The Bolsheviks were operating in a country devastated by war, famine, civil war, economic collapse, and the destruction of much of the industrial working class. That material environment mattered enormously.
So I'd put it this way: Trotsky's earlier warnings about centralization and bureaucratization deserve to be taken seriously. They don't prove he possessed some mystical premonition of Stalinism. The irony is that both sides eventually confronted the same material problem: how the fuck do you maintain proletarian political power when the proletariat itself has been decimated and the revolution remains internationally isolated?
>>2898123You can make a legitimate argument that Trotsky's politics contained serious errors, that his factional struggle with Stalin had real strategic consequences, or that some of his positions contributed to political failures. Those are perfectly reasonable historical arguments. But “Trotsky was secretly a proto-Nazi Zionist who wanted to genocide Russians” is just throwing every modern political insult into a blender and hoping it produces a biography.
>>2898138>>2898139Trotsky was calling for a united front with the SPD while Stalin was still pushing the social fascism line. Trotsky was very quick to recognize that the Nazis were a bigger threat and that continuing to focus on the SPD would only pave the way for fascism. He was correct and Stalin only adopted his line when it was finally too late (USSR being invaded so Stalin hastily switched to a popular front line).
>>2898147>Trotsky was calling for a united front with the SPD while Stalin was still pushing the social fascism line. Yeah I know. But that doesn't mean Hitler wouldn't rise to power anyway. Most of the reasons Hitler rose to power have to do with the situation in Germany. Not everything in history is decided top down by the Kremlin.
>>2898152SPD/KPD fighting was a big factor
>>2898152WW1 clearly was the reason behind Hitlers rise to power, it really doesnt matter what flavour of SPD/KPD you have when the membership is composed of people who work behind the counter of a deli vs the friekrops membership being mostly ww1 veterans who take glee in beating the prior groups to death.
The German left needed to capture this group, they failed and Hitler was the result, very little of what the USSR could have done short of invading them would have helped.
>>2898155It went both ways tho and probably wasn't simply a result of orders from Moscow to the KPD. Even when they all shared barracks in the KL some of these guys were still beefing, so I think the dispute ran deep.
>>2898159The failure of the German revolution doomed everything tbh
>>2898156No, the reason for Hitler was the SPD. Ebert, Scheidemann and Noske betrayed the workers and ended the revolution for the bourgeosie, ruined the economy causing mass unemployment, hyper inflation and hunger, went violently against the entire worker's movement while they let the SA and reactoid paramilitaries grow during their Weimar reign and last but not least prevented Thälmann from becoming president in favour of reactoid Hindenburg. Hindenburg installed Hitler. The SPD along their bourgeois liberal coalition partners paved the way for fascism to take over.
>>2897573>the bolsheviks allowed their army to be led by a fascist during the civil warastounding slander and mental gymnastics lol
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