Literally everything i learn about trotsky just makes him seem more and more based.
Why do ml's still seethe at him? Because he lost a power struggle against stalin over a hundred years ago??
Hes the only reason there was even a ussr to fight over in the first place.
Tsmt
Retarded bait, trotsky and his ideological hellspawn were/are retards
im not even a trotskyist but stalinoids have trotsky derangement syndrome. he obviously never worked with nazi germany and u just sound like a schizo for implying that
muh stalin molotov ribbentrop is the 2020s version of
>nazis were called national socialists, checkmate
Mods when will you change the website's name to libpol2 or ultrapol?
>>2897308>>2897309trotsky didn't work with nazi germany, but also the molotov ribbentrop pact should not be taken out of context, because that only serves a liberal capitalist narrative about WW2
>>2897311ironically I made this image, not to shit on Stalin, but to point out the stupidity of taking the 1920s comintern line about "social fascism" seriously when the comintern itself abandoned it within a decade. in hindsight I should have been more careful. the context of the original conversation this image was made for has been lost.
I'm tired of "trotskyists" shitting on "stalinists" and vice versa, I'm tired of ML being weak, I'm tired of "socdems" in the imperial core betraying the working class, but I'm also tired of reactionaries pretending like socdems are the second coming of marxism leninism, and I'm also tired of MLs pretending every socdem is a rosa killing freikorps. everyone seems really addicted to exaggeration.
I gained inordinate amount of respect for Ol’ Trot when I discovered that his first published text was a scathing critique of Neet-shi
>>2897311This is what true internationalism looks like señor
>>2897311two retards fighting. But seriously, most MLs seem not to mind his theory from what I have seen. But when it comes to his followers…. most seem to agree that they can be obnoxious. My impression overall is that trotsky derangement syndrom is real, especially with some MLs but there seems to be a large "silent" majority that really doesnt care that much about him whereas most Trotskyist (that I see online at least) often invoke Stalin because idk. Like imagine you actually read decent analysis on some workers struggle on wsws, which does happen from time to time, and then… for literally no reason: Stalin or Stalinism gets mentioned… like lol. Of course there is a sorta bias to it because Stalin "won" against Trotsky but still. And I truly believe that Stalin and Trotsky were a lot closer with their theory than people on either side seem to admit.
>>2897330What is this cope image? Funny how stalinloids cant even defend the ribbentrop pact so they have to deflect to liberal countries saying "see they did it too!!"
The molotov ribbentrop pact was purely an move of opportunism from stalin so he could take over eastern europe without inteference then watch as germany goes to fight the western powers and bleeds itself to death like in ww1 except it didnt work out like that and oops stalin just ended up enabling hitler and giving him an opportunity to invade the ussr
>>2897336The same army that invaded poland alongside nazi germany.
>>2897362Im sure the Polish people where acting completely innocently when it comes to there Jewish neighbors.
>>2897371Kek is this the excuse stalinoids came up with to cope?
Stalin beat the nazis. He did total nazi death. But muh molotov.
Trotsky is a "fuck every AES nation" proto neocon and his defenders use reddit liberal arguments unironically.
>>2897371the polish government and Polish state didn't exist when the soviets crossed the once polish border btw
>>2897449Instead of making a bogus pact to stall a couple of years and prepare for war he shouldve done the right and moral thing by allowing the nazis to steamroll everyone. Checkmate Stalinoid.
>>2897449Yes? Why cant stalinoids do nothing but deflect to others to excuse stalins actions?
>>2897456>by allowing the nazis to steamroll everyoneIt is precicely because of the molotov ribbentrop pact that allowed the nazis to steamroll everyone.
>>2897305>Why do ml's still seethe at him?because marxism-leninisn is an ideology made up by counter-revolutionary bureacrats specifically designed to cope about trotsky being right about the necessity of permanent revolution
>>2897416>Stalin beat the nazis.wrong, all shitalin did was allow the nazis to do irreparable damage to the USSR just for them to be later integrated into the most effective NATO reich that ended up finishing up the job
the moment the USSR decided to turn inward with the "socialism in one country" meme everything was lost
>>2897371So Stalinism isn't about protecting the working class; it's about historiKKKal justice.
Got it, just don't call yourselves leftists anymore.
>>2897416>Trotsky is a "fuck every AES nation"Not really. He criticized the USSR but still considered it a worker's state and said that it would be imperative for it to win a war against Germany. "Fuck AES" was a later innovation of *some* Trotskyists while others actually went in exactly the opposite direction.
Trotsky was right about Chiang Kai Shek but the party didn’t take him seriously on it which led to far more deaths in China than necessary and indirectly contributed to the Sino Soviet Split which arguably doomed humanity to extinction
>>2897359So instead Stalin should have just allowed Germany to swallow up all of Poland & leave the reactionary baltics countries alone?
Or maybe go to war early with Germany in a weaker position & worse borders?
Trotsky himself wouldn't have tolerated your completely deranged anti-strategic views.
>>2897497>So instead Stalin should have just allowed Germany to swallow up all of Poland & leave the reactionary baltics countries alone?Germany w couldnt have ever done those things if they didnt have guarantees from stalin that he wouldnt invade them if he did.
>>2897503Lady, you're retarded.
>>2897503considering Germany did operation barbarossa just after, I don't think Hitler was that interested in "guarantees"
>>2897509He was. After defeating poland germany had to shift the majroity of their forces west to defeat the allies hitler trusted stalins guarantee that he wouldnt invade their flank and thus was able to defeat the alliesan and then turn all of germanys attention towards the invasion of the soviet union.
>>2897508Nah im not stalin i dont sign and believe in treaties of non-agression with facists especially from one whos autobiography literally states he wants to invade the ussr and turn it all into living space.
>>2897509Knowing that he didn't need to worry about a Soviet attack in the east was pretty clearly influential on Hitler's decision to risk (and then fight) a war with Britain and France. That being said, the only reason the Soviets signed that treaty was because Britain and France refused to sign an anti-German treaty with the USSR. I'd say Molotov-Ribbentrop was making the best of a bad situation.
>>2897518>He was. Not really. He was possessed by the idea of emulating Frederick the Great and thought providence would see him through any multi front confrontation. The idea that a piece of paper would protect his rear never entered his mind.
>>2897520Also worth noting France had the biggest and estimated best army in Europe at the time, literally no one expected France to fall as fast as it did.
>>2897494trve anti-fascist praxis
>>2897520>Britain and France refused to sign an anti-German treaty with the USSRBecause stalin wanted to send troops trough poland to fight germany which the poles absolutely would never allow under any circumstance.
>>2897519Toots, every post you make is dumber than the last
>>2897527Poland was fascist and got what was coming to them in any case.
>>2897530They still are, in fact I’d say they never stopped
>The idea that a piece of paper would protect his rear never entered his mind
Then he never wouldve proposed the molotov ribbentrop pact
>>2897530How come ML's are exactly like liberals in the sense that they dont even know what facism even means ideologically.
>>2897518>then turn all of germanys attention towards the invasion of the soviet union.Not all of Germany's attention. Some of their attention had to be redirected to the Balkans to deal with ᴉuᴉlossnW's fiasco there. In addition, their second front against Britain was non-trivial. Germany was full of problems even before operation barbarossa.
The problem really is that Stalin assumed that Hitler was a rational statesman and he wouldn't do something absolutely insane like add a war with Russia to his already immense problems simply for ideological / non-logical / rational reasons.
Trvth trotsky was a irl giga
>>2897536Fascism is just liberalism with an edgy aesthetic though
>>2897527Yeah well that was pretty stupid of them wasn't it? Iirc Stalin also offered for Poland to join the alliance but they refused.
>>2897544They might have said yes but they were in the middle of screwing a lightbulb
>>2897555Screen door on a submarine and do forth.
Japan and Germany signed the anti-comintern pact in 1936, three years later the Nazis unilaterally signed the treaty with the soviet communists completely shocking japanese leadership and delaying the planned invasion of siberia. molotovribbentrop was a huge blunder for hitler. this is all in Molotovs memoirs
>>2897536Poland was fascist and got what they deserved enjoy thy L
>>2897567I don't think millions of Polish peasants and workers deserved to be exterminated just because they were led by retarded fascists.
>>2897568They should have supported the soviets more and overthrew their government in the anti-soviet war. If they don't like the results of concentration camps maybe they shouldn't have let themselves be lead by thr government that built them.
>>2897584It's the same for the Germans. Did the "civilians" in dresden deserve it? Well sorry, but if they didn't want their streets to run knee deep with boiling human fat then maybe they shouldn't have let themselves be lead by the party promising them totallen krieg then huh
>>2897601>Damn dude by that logic every Russian peasant that died in a famine or was disappeared by the Okhrana before 1917 had it coming.If they're killed by a fascist state they're doing nothing to oppose or undermine then yeah they have no one to blame for it but themselves.
>>2897590Now apply this to gaza
>>2897633The same gaza that's been resisting their fascist Israeli oppressors, unlike the comprador PA in the west bank?
Eventually Iranian missiles are going to reduce Israel to a wasteland and all the Israeli "workers" that lifted not a finger to stop it will deserve their death and misery.
>>2897644There’s gonna be a truth and reconciliation process that ends up benefiting everyone except the Israeli bourgeois
>>2897646The process will be ballistic missiles called truth and drones called reconciliation reducing the israelis to piles of gore and smoldering viscera.
>>2897655Those that survive will either flee to wherever their grandparents came from or learn to live with Arabs as neighbors with equal rights, it’ll all work out in the end, that’s what I’m choosing to believe
>>2897644>Eventually Iranian missiles are going to reduce Israel to a wasteland and all the Israeli "workers" that lifted not a finger to stop it will deserve their death and misery.Lmao at the cope gazans will keep exterminated and you wont do shit.
>>2897487shartymoid who isn't a leftist: you're not leftists because you like a communist leader
>>2897795shartymoid who isn't a leftist: you're not a leftist because… uhhhh. you just aren't okay?
>>2897359it's not a cope at all. stalin's rationale is not what you say it is. he knew hitler would attack eventually. molotov ribbentrop was to buy time to move factories east out of the range of the luftwaffe, and the invasion of poland was to move the eventual front line against the germans further to the west. it was a hard choice
Trotsky did nothing wrong
>>2897536What's your definition?
>>2897644fair… if workers in fascist countries aren't workers then there are no workers in NATO or 5 eyes
>>2897305take into consideration trotsky is miles better than trotskyts who are famously known for endlessly splitting parties, sexually assaulting their own militants and inventing neoconservatism
>>2897362you mean liberated and blocked nazi expansion
>>2897459idk if you know this but nazi germany lost the ww2
Trotsky was based until that stupid power struggle, which was completely unnecessary. It's his belligerent westoid followers who suck so much and just can't refrain from attacking and smearing MLs, usually in tandem with westoid anti-communists of all sorts.
However, to be fair it's gotten recently a lot better over here, for the moment at least WSWS and their local party offshoot seem to have set aside their sectarian antics a bit in favour of being less concerned with throwing shit at the USSR's "bureaucracy" and MLs together with liberals. Right now they are more concerned with actual communist stuff, like opposition to liberal warmongering. It's almost like they realized that in fact the bourgeoisie is the enemy of the workers, not fellow communists.
>>2897990Online sectarian trots will never be relevant because of this.
If you want to know what a trot government looks like when it gains power look to Tony Blair government, hes a self described trot.
There is a strong tradition of neo conservatives who are trots and they tend to expose in some way internalised anti communist propaganda.
Of course in real life I meet plenty of trots who don't even know they are meant to hate MLs, this is mostly a pre-soviet archives bring released position, which shows how behind the ones in this thread are.
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