It's time someone said it: Engels was dead wrong in "on the housing question", especially in a US context.
<During the 1870s, a major polemical debate unfolded in Germany’s worker/democratic press on the shortage of housing available to workers in major industrial centres. The influx and increase of the proletariat created a housing crisis. On June 26 1872, Engels contributed the first of a series of articles to the Volksstaat, entitled “The Housing Question.” The last appeared on February 22 1873. Engels’ central point was that the revolutionary class policy of the proletariat cannot be replaced by a policy of reforms, because "it is not that the solution of the housing question simultaneously solves the social question, but that only by the solution of the social question, that is, by the abolition of the capitalist mode of production, is the solution of the housing question made possible." The series criticizes Proudhonism (and petty-bourgeois socialism in general, including Lassalleanism). It also discusses things like the nature of the State, the dictatorship of the proletariat, the eradication of the antithesis between town and country, the solution of the agrarian problem, forms of the socialist reconstruction of society and the tasks of the proletarian party.
Engels argued against other socialists like Proudhon and Emil Sax who argued that widespread working class home ownership was the solution to the housing crisis. Engels actually classified Sax's scheme as "bourgeois socialism" because it aimed state intervention at ameliorating class consciousness without altering overall class relations that much, by "bourgeois-fying" the proletariat through home ownership.
Engels denies that workers even want land and also thinks that if workers owned houses the bourgeoisie will just lower their wages by the amount of the rent they no longer have to pay.
In his haste to prove these non revolutionary class reconciliation schemes can't work and only socialist revolution can actually resolve the contradictions of housing under capitalism. Perhaps that it true in the long run, but that may be centuries. Engels concedes, essentially, that working class homeowners, while not capitalist, are also non proletarian:
>Capital is the command over the unpaid labor of others. The house of the worker can only become capital therefore if he rents it to a third person and appropriates a part of the labor product of this third person in the form of rent. By the fact that the worker lives in it himself the house is prevented from becoming capital, just as a coat ceases to be capital the moment I buy it from the tailor and put it on. The worker who owns a little house to the value of a thousand talers is certainly no longer a proletarian, but one must be Dr. Sax to call him a capitalist.
Engels, with all due respect, was wrong. Yes, it is true that workers who own their homes are not capitalists (unless they become landlords), but it is equally telling that Engels does not address the fact that workers can and frequently do sell their houses at an enormous markup from the price at which they bought them. It is this mechanism that allows them to realize the surplus value expropriated in exchange through ground rent. While the house itself may be a normal commodity, the land underneath it, is not.
Engel’s example of a coat does not apply to land or a house of land (“a coat ceases to be capital the moment I buy it from the tailor and put it on”). Yes, that is because a coat does not typically appreciate in value and get resold. A coat has no future income stream while a plot of land does (expected cash flow from ground-rent). While land produces no value it does enter a circuit of capital, specifically fictitious capital, the term Marx uses for things like stocks, bonds, and land titles. Fictitious capital creates no new value at all in the transaction itself; the gain is a redistribution of already-existing social surplus value toward whoever holds the title when the capitalized rent happens to rise, funneled through rising expected future rents. That's precisely why aggregate "housing wealth" is close to zero-sum across society even though it feels like wealth creation to any individual seller: your gain is the next buyer's higher future cost of access, not a net addition to social product.
Engels doesn't name this class but I think it is most accurate to call it petit-rentier, or possibly something akin to a new gentry class. Essentially homeownership allows this class, either upon realizing the home price gains by selling the house or even through something like a home equity line of credit, to appropriate part of the total surplus value of society through this mechanism described above.
This is why home ownership is known to have an economic conservatizing effect, turning homeowners into single issue voters based on preserving the price of their home and/or increasing it. This is the origin of the stereotypical suburban NIMBY.
If this is true, the majority of citizens of western, especially English speaking nations are not proletarian, but not for the reason third worldists think.
In the US for example depending on how one defines it, somewhere between 52% and 65% of the population consists of homeowners (the latter number counts people who are members of homeowning household, even if not the homeowner themselves), which means even in the conservative case half the population has a reason to be reactionary which is hardly the basis for a mass movement, and in the worst case, around 2/3rds of the population isn't even proletarian.
Let's talk about "bourgeois socialism":
<The Marxist view is such that the bourgeois socialist is the sustainer of the state of bourgeois class relations. In The Principles of Communism, Friedrich Engels describes them as "so-called socialists" who only seek to remove the evils inherent in capitalist society while maintaining the existing society often relying on methods, such as welfare systems and grandiose claims of social reform. Opinions vary as to whether if bourgeois socialist is actively protecting or intentionally excusing the current order, but the common thread is that they are in objective fact preserving it. Rather than abolishing social class divisions, they wish to simply raise everyone up to be a member of the bourgeoisie to allow everyone the ability to endlessly accumulate capital without a working class.
I've reached a conclusion that is as disturbing to orthodox Marxists as it is to right wingers; which is that the United States is ALREADY SOCIALIST. That is to say by Engelsian standards it has been successfully practicing a form of bourgeois socialism at least since the new deal if not even sooner, and in fact the United States and other countries went far, far further in terms of state intervention than men like Emil Sax ever envisioned.
>Sax's proposal, in its own terms: private savings-and-loan-style building societies letting individual workers purchase homes through installment/deferred payment, financed by workers' own accumulated savings and modest capital, not government funds. Its stated political purpose, per Sax's own words that Engels quoted specifically to expose it, was to bind workers to the soil and defuse the dangerous confusion of ideas and proletarian bitterness threatening the social order. Privately financed, operating on existing urban land within existing city limits.
The new deal era US took something very similar and backed it with state power by creating a federal housing administration that backed loans made by private banks, and also heavily subsidized highway (and other) infrastructure to make these far flung suburbs made of detached single family homes accessible by automobile.
The 19th century homesteader fufilling Jeffreson's ideal of the yeoman farmer was only possible after the land was cleared of the natives by the military and gifted by the federal government 40 acres at a time. But the myth of the individualist settler winning the west persisted because that intervention was largely invisible and it appeared that success or failure was up to the individual settler or family's ability to farm a small plot of land.
Similarly there is a genius of the federal subsidization of suburbia, without which large swathes of the population would never be able to live in large detached single family homes as the level of property tax to support transportation, etc. infrastructure to support this would be unimaginably high. To be self sustaining without federal support, property taxes would likely have to raise 30-40% even just to maintain current suburbs let alone build greenfield ones, and other estimates are far, far, far higher.
But to the individual mcmansion owner it appears that their quality of life is entirely their own doing or due to simple market forces causing their houses to appreciate in value. The state driven origins of their prosperity are laundered, unlike social welfare which is clearly perceived as direct transfer payments. What market oriented YIMBYs get wrong is not that this is a form of state intervention into capitalism that is "inefficient" by neoliberal standards, but that without this, towns and cities without 1920s levels of density would either have to densify or fail financially. That would be equivalent to reproletarianizing the petit rentier class, which would essentially be the end of american bourgeois socialism and stripping asset ownership from masses of the working class population would also destroy the lack of class conflict the US has "enjoyed" since the end of the 1940s.
>bourgeois socialism
I am pretty sure Marx also wrote about it in the communist manifesto and yes, most countries have it in place but they call it welfare state or sozialstaat.
>>2907036I remember some conservative PDF about how the 10 planks from the Manifesto were already mostly implemented, proving that the commies took over. Guess they were right! Also Bernie is right when he says we have socialism for the rich.
I'm not sure I follow your housing point. You say that makes them not proles… which was Engel's point also? Like this guy said 19th century English proles were becoming bourgeoisified, I can't imagine what'd he say if he saw American suburbanites.
Engels was correct. Home ownership gives people a stake in the capitalist system because they own something. This is why countries like Sinagpore and 20th century America (post WW2) were stable for so long. The capitalists reigned in their greed and provided treats and made housing affordable for everyone.
However, things have changed. The reformist left has been annihilated and with the USSR gone the capitalists became arrogant and are in the process of revoking every treat. This is good because more and more people will become homeless and people will snap out of it and realize they need to overthrow capitalism once again. The bribes have been withdrawn and the class struggle has been sharpened.
>>2907036"No one who owns his own house and lot can be a communist. He has too much to do." - William Levitt, 1948
A fun empirical example of property ownership's political effect is thatcher bribing voters by selling them council houses below cost and banning councils from using the revenue to build more. Now the UK has a class of old reactionary buy to let bastard "working class landlords."
You then see this in voting statistics. For example although Brexit was driven by the poorest areas, it was the better off people in those areas who voted for it, not the poorest people.
>The Housing QuestionI have persisted in calling this one of the worst texts in all of Marxist bibliography. It falls under economic fallacies of justifying rents, as a transaction of commodity consumption, when no such thing occurs:
<In the housing question we have two parties confronting each other: the tenant and the landlord or house owner […] It is simple commodity sale; it is not an operation between proletarian and bourgeois, between worker and capitalist […] The worker is always cheated of a part of the product of his labour, whether that labour is paid for by the capitalist below, above, or at its value. The tenant, on the other hand, is cheated only when he is compelled to pay for the dwelling above its value. It is, therefore, a complete misrepresentation of the relation between landlord and tenant to attempt to make it equivalent to the relation between worker and capitalist. On the contrary, we are dealing here with a quite ordinary commodity transaction between two citizens, and this transaction proceeds according to the economic laws which govern the sale of commodities in general and in particular the sale of the commodity, land property. The building and maintenance costs of the house, or of the part of the house in question, enters first of all into the calculation; the land value, determined by the more or less favourable situation of the house, comes next; the state of the relation between supply and demand existing at the moment is finally decisive.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmHere, Engels thinks of land as a commodity and not as capital. The building costs have already been paid from its construction, and so private investment by renting it out is clearly a means of accumulating surplus value. It is Thomas Aquinas who actually reveals this fact (1274):
<To take usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice. In order to make this evident, we must observe that there are certain things the use of which consists in their consumption […] if a man wanted to sell wine separately from the use of the wine, he would be selling the same thing twice, or he would be selling what does not exist, wherefore he would evidently commit a sin of injustice […] On the other hand, there are things the use of which does not consist in their consumption: thus to use a house is to dwell in it, not to destroy it […] For this reason a man may lawfully make a charge for the use of his house, and, besides this, revendicate the house from the person to whom he has granted its use, as happens in renting and letting a house […] if he exacts more for the usufruct of a thing which has no other use but the consumption of its substance, he exacts a price of something non-existent: and so his exaction is unjust […] there are certain things whose use is not their consumption: such things admit of usufruct, for instance house or land property and so forthhttps://www.newadvent.org/summa/3078.htmHere, usury (e.g. money-capital) in its principle applies to the charging of rents; that is, the usufruct of a thing by duration, and which thus exacts a passive exchange. Marx, following Aquinas, sees the realisation of value in use as a factor of its consumption, and so with rent, the costs ought to be proportional to maintaining what has been used up. Rents count as usufruct, and so whose utility is not counted as use-value in the Marxian sense, and so does not count as a mere "commodity" either, in the same way Marx writes that land is an "imaginary" commodity, since it does not transact any given value. Usury and rent therefore both act as forms of capital, and Engels' obscuration of this fact is utterly puzzling. Land has always posed a problem for political economy. To make it clear, the landlord-tenant relationship is one of economic exploitation, not just commodity exchange.
>Bourgeois SocialismMarx already sees that tenant parents assume the role of exploiters against their children, by proletarianising them for the acquisition of rents. This is still a feature of most capitalist countries, where a child is demanded to work as soon as possible to give a surplus to parents. As for the possession of property itself, the fictitious capital of real estate treats of the same as any type of investment, which is about accruing equity; e.g. capital.
>Not proletarianBut here you are not being subtle about temporality. If the house only becomes capital by first converting it into an exchange-value, then it must be sold so as to allow for a positive return. Simply owning a home is like owning a hoard of money; it is only capital in circulation. If someone owns a $1M home thus, but never sells it, they have not accrued capital until the moment of sale. So, owning a home is not the same as selling a home.
>Redistribution is SocialismI mean, "Socialism" can mean anything you want (e.g. Manifesto of the Communist Party, Ch. 3), since there are so many kinds. Upon this point, Engels sees that the mode of distribution is entirely derivative of the mode of production; so, if social relations which afford the post-war Social Democracy are sustained, you could claim that the very mode of production has also been altered. I personally perceive absolute separation between them.
>equivalent to reproletarianizing the petit rentier classYou are talking about housing without discussing Estate Agencies. The worker-owner is very different from Black Rock. You are also looking at the Western world, when China has more homeowners than any Western country by proportion. Isn't China a "bourgeois socialist" nation? I myself am a Jeffersonian and welcome independence.
>>2907040"caring for the poor and disabled is the same as subsidizing white rentier nimbies"
Starting with Bismarck, the welfare state was a weapon of the bougies against reactionary institutions like the church which previously took care of the poor and disabled and social functions like education.
You are a petit-bourgeois. You fantasise your nazi dorf. Fuck you.
>>2907036> Engels was wrong about something That is not that big of a deal unless you take think Engels was right about everything and you take everything he said ever as dogma. Obviously all communist thinkers have been wrong about a lot of things. We wouldn't be in the situation we are now otherwise.
> Engels doesn't name this class but I think it is most accurate to call it petit-rentier, or possibly something akin to a new gentry class.That doesn't follow. If the homeowner is not using the land as capital they don't cease to be working class because they might sell them later at markup maybe.
>This is why home ownership is known to have an economic conservatizing effect, turning homeowners into single issue voters based on preserving the price of their home and/or increasing it. This is the origin of the stereotypical suburban NIMBY. I am not convinced by this part.
> In the US for example depending on how one defines it, somewhere between 52% and 65% of the population consists of homeowners (the latter number counts people who are members of homeowning household, even if not the homeowner themselves), which means even in the conservative case half the population has a reason to be reactionary which is hardly the basis for a mass movement, and in the worst case, around 2/3rds of the population isn't even proletarian. This is a misleading statistic as it counts the number of people in a home owning household not homeowners. Then this is used to misleadingly jump to the conclusion that people who happen to live in homeowning households even if they are not homeowners will be reactionary.
>I've reached a conclusion that is as disturbing to orthodox Marxists as it is to right wingers; which is that the United States is ALREADY SOCIALIST. That is to say by Engelsian standards it has been successfully practicing a form of bourgeois socialism at least since the new deal if not even sooner, and in fact the United States and other countries went far, far further in terms of state intervention than men like Emil Sax ever envisioned.We call this a social democracy not socialism. The way we use words change. Stop using "Englesian standards" as an argument. Times change and we don't hold to everything in century old texts.
> The new deal era US took something very similar and backed it with state power by creating a federal housing administration that backed loans made by private banks, and also heavily subsidized highway (and other) infrastructure to make these far flung suburbs made of detached single family homes accessible by automobile. The United States had a lot of nice social programs in the past. They had a brief era of prosperity, but a lot of that is going away now.
> That would be equivalent to reproletarianizing the petit rentier class, which would essentially be the end of american bourgeois socialism and stripping asset ownership from masses of the working class population would also destroy the lack of class conflict the US has "enjoyed" since the end of the 1940s.Ending homeownership and packing everyone in densely packed cities in the US to get work would be an absolute shitshow we agree on that
>>2907408some people appear born without the ability to develop reading comprehension
>>2907429Way to miss the point on nearly everything
>>2907429>>2907511<That doesn't follow. If the homeowner is not using the land as capital they don't cease to be working class because they might sell them later at markup maybe. try reading the section of OP on fictitious capital>I am not convinced by this part.Even non radical scholars have noted this. there were books written like the homevoter hypothesis, also studies that show basically homeowners use local politics and zoning laws to protect and maximize the value of their homes, which is their single largest asset. There also plenty of mainstream research showing asset ownership generally makes people more economically conservative i.e. more pro capitalist. Google it.
>This is a misleading statistic as it counts the number of people in a home owning household not homeowners. Then this is used to misleadingly jump to the conclusion that people who happen to live in homeowning households even if they are not homeowners will be reactionary.that number was given in OP. 65%, the higher number counts all household members while 52% is the lower number and counts just home owners. So even conservatively that's more than half the population being by Engels standards, non proletarian. And that assumes dependents i.e. children and stay at home wives of petit rentier adopt their ideology 0%.
<We call this a social democracy not socialism. The way we use words change. Stop using "Englesian standards" as an argument. Times change and we don't hold to everything in century old texts.Again, way to miss the point. Who cares what its called, the point is it "works" in that making home ownership available to broad swathes of the population has exactly the anti-revolutionary, anti socialist effect Sax predicted, its a form of state intervention into capitalism that appears to anesthetize class conflict successfully by transforming a majority of the population, sometimes a sizable majority into non proletarians.
>The United States had a lot of nice social programs in the past. They had a brief era of prosperity, but a lot of that is going away now. Federal subsidization of home ownership or the infrastructure that supports it isnt going away any time soon, even under the most right wing presidents ex Trump.
>>2907313>You are talking about housing without discussing Estate Agencies. The worker-owner is very different from Black Rock. You are also looking at the Western world, when China has more homeowners than any Western country by proportion. Isn't China a "bourgeois socialist" nation? I myself am a Jeffersonian and welcome independence.AFAIK in China the state owns all land or most of it and the rest(usually rural agricultural land) is owned by agriculture coops. And the state leases the land, so in effect that means no ground rent accrues to home owners because it goes to the state, hence the Chinese homeowner is not a petit rentier. Ironically China is close to georgism in that sense than orthodox Marxism. Engels is right that the literal house is a mere commodity, but he is neglecting that typically people buy the house and the land beneath it. But in the Chinese example this is not the case.
>But here you are not being subtle about temporality. If the house only becomes capital by first converting it into an exchange-value, then it must be sold so as to allow for a positive return. Simply owning a home is like owning a hoard of money; it is only capital in circulation. If someone owns a $1M home thus, but never sells it, they have not accrued capital until the moment of sale. So, owning a home is not the same as selling a home.I mean you could argue the same thing about any economic circuit it doesn't convert from money into money instantaneously in any case. Also the homeowner does not have to wait 30 years to access the surplus value in their home since they can simply go to the bank and get a HELOC - home equity line of credit, essentially take a loan using the value of their house as collateral and if the house goes up in value they can get more money while still living in it. Also the average length of tenure in a single home is around 8-13 years, meaning the "average" homeowner will sell a home at least 2-3 times in their adult life, possible more if they move around.
Finally i'd argue even unrealized gains instill a petit rentier mentality in the homeowner because even though they aren't going to sell, they COULD at any time so the gains on paper are still something they would want to defend. You may as well argue capitalists will not defend their stocks/company ownership because they don't sell them often enough and will often hold onto them for decades and similarly to the homeowner, take out loans using the underlying asset as collateral and live off those.
>>2907615>no ground rent accrues to home owners because it goes to the stateIt doesn't accrue to Westerners either, since ground rents are taxed on property margins - why do you think bigger properties pay larger taxes? Because the land value is estimated by square footage and so on. For accrued value, this is in asset appreciation, which in the West is also taxed as capital gains. If the larger implication is that Chinese people don't privately sell or rent their properties, this is false. China has private landlords. Look it up. They don't own the land itself, but do Westerners actually own land if they require government permission?
>China is close to georgism in that sense than orthodox MarxismThat's what makes it superior.
>the literal house is a mere commodityYes, but the house is paid for in its construction. Engels' erroneous point is that RENT is a mere commodity exchange and not exploitation. As Aquinas demonstrates, usufruct entails the use of a thing without its consumption - so tenancy is a service without use-value, making it a non-commodity, but a "double payment" instead.
>I mean you could argue the same thing about any economic circuit it doesn't convert from money into money instantaneously in any case. Exactly, which is why Marx specifically sees circulating money as capital. Capital must be in constant transfer to count as capital.
>a petit rentier mentalityAs opposed to the mentality of a renter?
Owning a home is good. Renting is bad.
How does one solve the housing question? Universal ownership.
>>2907816<How does one solve the housing question? Universal ownership.good luck achieving that under capitalism when the tendency is to concentrate asset ownership in smaller and smaller groups of people over time
>>2907036This is a betrayal of Marx pure revisionism
>>2908226You can’t betray a dead person idiot
>>2907816>How does one solve the housing question? Universal ownership.didn't read the text award
>>2908225I never claimed it was possible under Capitalism,
But it's clearly not possible under Communism, either.
>>2907422If you bothered googling him, you would realize that Levitt is the segregationist monster of an anti-communist who invented suburbs. Maybe if you spent more time learning and less time deriding others, you would know who your enemies are.
>>2908435The enemy is the people, the so called masses you want to rally to carry out your coup
>>2908426Why is it not possible to read the text and disagree with it?
Here is Engels' opening premise:
<The essence of both the big bourgeois and petty-bourgeois solutions of the “housing question” is that the worker should own his own dwelling.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/preface.htmWhat horror; that a worker should not also be a renter his whole life!
Maybe owning is good, and renting is bad. Common sense.
>>2908444Engels' point is that it just moves where the exploitation happens. rather than your landlord doing so (in addition to your employer), the banks will increase their interest instead. except now workers have more of a stake in the system and are far less likely to revolt. their ire will turn towards the bankers rather than all owning classes
>>2908458But the ire moves to your landlord instead of all the ownin classes too
>>2908462yes but you have no stake in your landlord's property. home ownership results in workers becoming
mitbürger >>2908465Of course you do, you can't change your rental like it's a pair of socks, it takes months and you need to give multiple months of rent as a collateral that the landlords always try to cash in when you leave.
>>2908458Engels doesn't even believe that the landlord exploits the tenant.
He has no real solution to the Housing Question.
We can read, first of all, his diagnosis:
<The housing shortage […] is one of the innumerable smaller, secondary evils […] It is not at all a direct result of the exploitation of the worker as worker by the capitalist. This exploitation is the basic evil […] This housing shortage […] is just as little an evil which burdens the working class exclusively as is the cheating of the shopkeeper […] the working class endures in common with other classes, and particularly the petit bourgeoisie […] the housing question […] is by no means exclusively a working-class questionhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmNow, after this comes the Proudhonist proposition:
<The tenant is in the same position in relation to the house-owner as the wage-worker in relation to the capitalist.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmTo which he replies, emphatically:
<This is totally untrue.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmAs I have shown, Engels is ignorant on this:
>>2907313He is ignorant because he imagines that usufruct has use-value, despite land in this case being an "imaginary" commodity, according to Marx's own standards, and so lacking the character of commodities; exchange-value. The charging of rent therefore, is exploitative of labour. The Proudhonists are exactly correct; Engels is wrong. Engels displays his bourgeois apologia when he writes:
<rent must not only pay the interest on the building costs, but must also cover repairs and the average amount of bad debts and unpaid rents as well as the occasional periods when the house is untenantedhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmAn untenanted home requires costs? Why? He offers no resolve, but just accepts that landlords are actually the ones exploited by bankers whose usury enslaves them. Moreover, Engels would see that rent controls exploit landlords since it lowers rents below their "value". This is wholly irradical, and even reactionary hogwash. It is Engels contrarily who justifies dispossession as a fact of 'progress'; writing this on worker home ownership:
<In this jeremiad we have Proudhonism in its whole reactionary form. In order to create the modern revolutionary class of the proletariat it was absolutely necessary to cut the umbilical cord which still bound the worker of the past to the land. The hand weaver who had his little house, garden and field along with his loom was a quiet, contented man […] now comes this tearful Proudhonist and bewails the driving of the workers from hearth and home as though it were a great retrogression instead of being the very first condition of their intellectual emancipation.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmEngels here sees propertylessness as prerequisite for revolution. How ironic, considering Engels' hypocisy. If it is dire poverty which causes discontentment, why was Engels happy to preserve his own wealth? Evidently, he must have been a bourgeois propagandist himself, if the very idea of having stuff leads to "reactionary" politics. It is all quite clear for Engels; he is allowed to possess his own home, and justify rents, but a defence of workers actually possessing their dwelling goes way too far. Is this not transparent of Engels' own counter-revolution? As I have said, this is one of the worst texts ever written.
>>2908481>An untenanted home requires costs? Why?Based on the provided quote, because that’s the same as unpaid rent in a tenanted home. But to answer your question, a home isn’t permanent and they’ve a service life measured in decades from the point they were built.
If you built a home with an expected service life of 100 years before it’d become structurally unsafe to live in, then that’s unchanged whether it’s tenanted or not for those 100 years. It’s only the commodification of housing that makes it economically viable to keep dumping money into renovating and refurbishing homes to extend their lifespans by another decade at a time.
And that’s why mass private homeownership actually makes millions of workers bag holders. Eventually houses have to be struck off as structurally unsound and demolished, the last family to be living in that home will have paid for generations of profitable sales and be left with nothing except perhaps the residual value of the land.
Housing ultimately needs to be constantly replenished as roads, electrical networks and plumbing systems do. It’s a public service treated as a simple commodity like gold or diamonds that never tarnish.
>>2908481Engels here is not advocating for the interests of landowners. His point is that the expropriation of the independent, petit bourgeois worker was a movement in dialectical relation to the rise of industrial capitalism, ie. a necessity for the concentration of the means of production for the rapid accumulation of capital which points beyond itself towards proletarian socialism as the socialization of the means of production to be governed collectively in a republican manner. In this sense Proudhonian socialism is a reactionary cry for the past, whose hypothetical implementation would point back at industrial capitalism (and would probably be impossible today).
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/labour.htm
>Political economy starts from labor as the real soul of production; yet to labor it gives nothing, and to private property everything. Confronting this contradiction, Proudhon has decided in favor of labor against private property[21]. We understand, however, that this apparent contradiction is the contradiction of estranged labor with itself, and that political economy has merely formulated the laws of estranged labor.
>We also understand, therefore, that wages and private property are identical. Indeed, where the product, as the object of labor, pays for labor itself, there the wage is but a necessary consequence of labor’s estrangement. Likewise, in the wage of labor, labor does not appear as an end in itself but as the servant of the wage. We shall develop this point later, and meanwhile will only draw some conclusions.
<An enforced increase of wages (disregarding all other difficulties, including the fact that it would only be by force, too, that such an increase, being an anomaly, could be maintained) would therefore be nothing but better payment for the slave, and would not win either for the worker or for labor their human status and dignity.
<Indeed, even the equality of wages, as demanded by Proudhon, only transforms the relationship of the present-day worker to his labor into the relationship of all men to labor. Society would then be conceived as an abstract capitalist.
>Wages are a direct consequence of estranged labor, and estranged labor is the direct cause of private property. The downfall of the one must therefore involve the downfall of the other. >>2908484You don't quite understand.
What Engels is essentially arguing is that the wear and tear of landed capital exacts a real value transferable to tenants, which is idiotic.
>>2908488>Engels here is not advocating for the interests of landownersNot explicitly, but implicitly.
>>2908458>>2908481As for the redirection of surplus value, Engels actually describes the motivation of positive, productive investment occuring at the margin of unyielding rents:
<But if it were possible really to abolish interest by decree, what would be the consequence? The class of rentiers would no longer have any inducement to loan out their capital in the form of advances, but would invest it for their own account in their own industrial enterprises or in joint-stock companies.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmSo he contradicts himself; in calling anti-usury laws "medieval" and reactionary, while also seeing them as a means to increase industry. Too, Marx (Capital Vol. 3, Ch. 36) sees that modern industry begins by political and legal acts against usury; as in 17th century England. This is entirely preferable in any case. Imagine if money was used to create jobs rather than just for parasitism. There are no downsides to home ownership, except to the zealous Marxist who demands people to be poor in a sado-masochistic fashion, like the Christian martyrs. I am not exaggerating, either; Engels' entire line of attack against the Proudhonists is that workers owning homes is reactionary, because it makes workers comfortable. Engels was certainly comfortable in his lifestyle, so did this make him less revolutionary? Does the worker who has nothing allow for more or less education? It's clear. Engels expressly writes that he shan't give solutions to the problem, since this would be idle Utopianism; so, he only criticises, and offers no responsive construction.
>>2908494Isn't that also the argument of "classic" liberals ? That subscriptions and renting are just remnant of the feudal mode of production ? (Especially under an economy where commodities are FOR EXANGE)
>>2908498Not quite, in the historical discourse presented.
We can read Adam Smith (1776):
<As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce. The wood of the forest, the grass of the field, and all the natural fruits of the earth, which, when land was in common, cost the labourer only the trouble of gathering them, come, even to him, to have an additional price fixed upon them. He must then pay for the licence to gather them; and must give up to the landlord a portion of what his labour either collects or produces. This portion, or, what comes to the same thing, the price of this portion, constitutes the rent of land, and in the price of the greater part of commodities makes a third component part.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book01/ch06.htmAs we see, rent is a cost imposed without requirement, and so labourers could only be better off without it. If we continue to Smith's comments on housing rents we read:
<The rent of houses is paid for the use of an unproductive subject. Neither the house nor the ground which it stands upon produce anything. The person who pays the rent, therefore, must draw it from some other source of revenue distinct from the independent of this subject.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book05/ch02b-1.htmSmith offers a positive solution in part:
<A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-adam/works/wealth-of-nations/book05/ch02b-1.htmWe see that Smith thus supports progressive taxation, the same as promoted by Thomas Jefferson (1785):
<Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s32.htmlWe could perhaps see the description of housing rents being "unproductive" as allusory of Smith's earlier work on "unproductive labour" (Wealth of Nations, Bk. 2, Ch. 3), with labour services being more characteristic of the division of labour of feudal times than modernity; based around the production of goods. It is more of a later criticism found in Veblen (1899), Bukharin (1919) and Baudrillard (1968) that later capitalism resembles the feudal by a conversion to rentierism, however. And as I have shown, a medieval thinker like Aquinas (1274) has already decoded the deception of rents, same as usury. So rents are criticised by Liberals, largely because tenancy acts as a type of service, rather than a concrete transfer of commodities.
>>2908498>>2908516For the larger case, we read in Von Thünen's Isolated State, Part II (1826) that where fixed capital competes for labour, the availability of land determines the rate of wages according to one's ability to move. Marx encounters the same point in Capital Vol. 1, Ch. 33 (1867):
<a passion for owning land prevents the existence of a class of labourers for hire […] So long, therefore, as the labourer can accumulate for himself — and this he can do so long as he remains possessor of his means of production — capitalist accumulation and the capitalistic mode of production are impossible.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/ch33.htmA classical liberal, Heinrich Gossen (1854) also wrote that the land of a nation ought to be nationalised, since private rents are exploitative. Of course, Henry George (1878) famously countered landed interests, from a classical liberal perspective. So, the problem of land is the real basis of capitalist production - Marx makes this rather clear, even if he is still against the repossession of land by the dispossessed workers. It is the constriction of land which thereby constricts personal liberty.
>>2907036The creation of an 'asset economy' of ever-rising real estate prices is a relatively modern invention. It arose as a consequence of neoliberal reforms which opened up real estate to speculation with surplus capital, and offered a 'consolation prize' investment in the absence of real wage or benefits increases.
It's not that Engels was wrong so much as his analysis is out of date. In the 19th century the big concern was scarcity of housing and the overcrowding of the industrial proletariat in urban slums. Real estate speculation was tied to future development. Nowadays we arguably have a surplus of housing, but the question is mainly of price, and real estate is often seen as a commodity first to enable market speculation or rent-seeking for the owner.
>>2908535>In the 19th century the big concern was scarcity of housing and the overcrowding of the industrial proletariat in urban slums.But Engels even admits that houses in his time were under-utilised:
<But one thing is certain: there are already in existence sufficient buildings for dwellings in the big towns to remedy immediately any real “housing shortage,” given rational utilization of them. This can naturally only take place by the expropriation of the present owners and by quartering in their houses the homeless or those workers excessively overcrowded in their former houses.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmThe perennial problem of "overproduction" is not recent, therefore.
>>2908569Be that as it may, the condition of asset price inflation is a new one. 150 years ago, land speculation was driven by the anticipation of future development and urban expansion. Nowadays people flip homes and buy apartment complexes on the expectation that the land stays the same while market prices continue soaring.
>>2908484NTA but thats engels point about the physical structure not the natural resource rent of the land underneath it which he completely ignores
>>2908486>be left with nothing except perhaps the residual value of the land.nice story but thats not usually how it works. As long as a population keeps growing in ex: north america old single family detached homes are usually in older suburbs which get densified as times goes on because the urban core is expanding out, and thus the person can still sell their teardown home to be demonlished for a new home or at an even bigger markup if the land underneath is upzoned to allow greater density. A developer will buy that land at the price of a single family home and build an apartment building with 12 stories of apartments on it and sell each one for half the price of that home, assuming a 12 story apartment contains 100 ish apartments then that means they're making 50x profit. and some of that gets passed on to the home seller, your fantasy only makes sense if the last seller is taking a haircut on price, but in practice they wont and as you can see from public data housing prices have outstripped inflation for decades regardless of refubishment and doing even basic refurbishment for like 5% of the cost of the house makes in livable again, even in north america you can find houses built in the 19th century in ex: chicago being resold to this very day.
So best case you make a ton of money and worst case you still make a ton of money though slightly less with the "residual value of the land" since the value of the land is rising over time.
>>2908569>But Engels even admits that houses in his time were under-utilised:i dont know how much Engels based that on real data in victorian london for example you had urban poor paying to sleep in warehouses in coffins and even leaning on ropes (the so called two penny hangover).
Today's suburban Mcmansion would basically be considered equivalent to a pretty well of european aristrocrats or royalty's hunting lodge in the country. Even the aesthetic of suburbia like the short cut grass etc. is based off larping as european and in that case specifically english aristocrats.
>>2908632how much of this is due to population growth and how much to gabitalism
>>2910299It's capitalism. Our current predicament is best explained in terms of surplus capital and surplus population: too much capital which cannot be profitably invested, so it's plowed into asset speculation and rent-seeking, and too many workers who can no longer be profitably employed and who therefore languish in shitty service jobs or 'informal employment.'
As an aside, Red Vienna and the grand social housing schemes of the 20th century depended on a surplus of industrial profits to be taxed, and a population of productive industrial laborers which needed to be housed. The former only exists in certain wealthy cities, the latter does not except maybe in China and SEA.
What I don't get is how housing or even land is any different from any other speculative commodity in terms of how it alters your class position. If you inherit a bunch of gold jewelry from your dead grandma, do you cease to be proletarian because you could potentially sell it for a profit if gold prices go up?
>>2908428>But it's clearly not possible under Communism, either.yeah you're not going to get universal ownership under a system where land ownership is abolished. what's your point
>>2910619The point is obvious.
Both capitalism and Communism fail to solve the housing question.
And when you say ownership will be "abolished", what you mean is that the property ownership will be reserved by a state monopoly.
>>2910543You are still technically a 'worker' if you happen to have cash savings, or a pile of gold, or a few acres of land. Using those assets to derive income from investment or rents or starting a business or farm is what alters your class position.
>>2910664Isn’t having the thing inherently an investment even if you don’t plan on selling it except in some dire emergency?
>>2910664That's mechanical
It's not some binary on-off switch tied to employment that determines class poaition, but objective social relations.
If you have enough cash to start a business that has already altered your class position, whether you actually do or not.
For example bohemian rich kids who want to "get away from it all" and larp as working class wotking a service job and renting a dorm in the city are still bourgeois.
>>2910665>>2911001You need to actually use assets in order to create those social relations. Owning a bunch of land in itself is just a tax burden. Developing it or renting it out is what changes your class position by creating an income stream not tied to selling your labor power.
>>2911001This just recreates the liberal understanding of class as being determined by income rather than relations of production.
>>2908494>zealous Marxist who demands people to be poor in a sado-masochistic fashion, like the Christian martyrssmith anon still can't read award and he still argues in bad faith
>>2911080What has been misread?
Engels' entire argument is that workers having comfort is "reactionary" because it diminishes revolutionary fervour. Read (1873):
<we have Proudhonism in its whole reactionary form. In order to create the modern revolutionary class of the proletariat it was absolutely necessary to cut the umbilical cord which still bound the worker of the past to the land […] It is precisely modern large-scale industry, which has turned the worker, formerly chained to the land, into a completely propertyless proletarian […] now comes this tearful Proudhonist and bewails the driving of the workers from hearth and home as though it were a great retrogression instead of being the very first condition for their intellectual emancipation.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/housing-question/ch01.htmThus begs the question, where is Engels' vow of poverty? Hypocrisy.
>>2910622Wrong. Communist China has 90% home ownership. The home ownership issue has already been solved. Everyone will become a home owner under Communism.
>>2911113Take it up with commies like this:
>>2910619 >>2911077Money is capital though, that’s why successfully unionized workers become bourgeois and imperialist
The problem is you need to both have a job and “nothing to lose but your chains”, but your job IS something to lose. The actual people with nothing to lose are the lunpenproles but they’re reactionary because they can get bribed very easily as if regular proles don’t. Overall marxist class analysis just ends up incoherent when applied in the age of the 401k and health insurance package and consumer credit.
>>2911145Basically anything is capital potentially. If I have a set of carpentry tools that I use for personal projects at home, those tools are not capital. If I start a carpentry business then they are. If I run a gardening business then a bucket of cow shit is capital. What matters is the actual relationship to the means of production, i.e. how its being used in practice.
>>2911238Exactly, why do you think there hasn’t been a proletarian revolution?
>>2911249Because capitalism hasn't yet exhausted its ability to manage class antagonism, and it's previous failures to do so (e.g. in countries where there were successful socialist revolutions) had less to do with imperialism as such and more to do with their lateness in developing the proper tools for it. None of that supports your un-Marxist understanding of class though.
>>2911071>You need to actually use assets in order to create those social relations. Owning a bunch of land in itself is just a tax burden. Developing it or renting it out is what changes your class position by creating an income stream not tied to selling your labor power.no because even if you don't directly rent it out it will appreciate in value based on potential future income streams, in fact it may be more rational to wait for future appreciation than to develop it right away.
Land is like a call options contract, the cost of construction is the strike price and if you exercise that means you develop it. But like most call options the rational strategy is almost never to exercise right away, since you destroy the optionality.
>>2911238It's not capital unless you're exploiting other people. If you're self-employed then you're semi-proletarian.
>>2911077Sorry, CEOs aren't proletarian. Neither are professional athletes.
>>2912904What makes someone proletarian?
why did you use obi wan for this threaed?
>>2913172thats not obi wan thats engels
>>2913169so few proletarians actually exist in west
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