I am not a communist and I wanna ask you guys why most communists speak as if they know the truth?
Facts about economics, social organization, justice and politics are not obvious. Things change, humans are absolitely impredictable.
There is no physical science that is absolutely true, even mathematics has its blind spots, why should human and social sciences be?
It can move people towards a goal, but is it worth it if not based in something good?
did u break up with your mogger bf or something
You sound retarded. Forget trying to understand communism and focus on shit you might actually be able to wrap your dumb little baby brain around (with some effort) like learning to tie your shoes or using your indoor voice when you're attending retard class.
>>2914911Now try to explain why you think I am retarded, if you can.
are u a nihilist who hates moggers?
>>2914913>>2914909I stufied philosophy and was always interesred in social and political questions, but also question about life and reality in general.
Communism seems to me like propaganda, it has no basis in reality, it is just a form of political expression and an attempt to explain reality based on social needs which is limited to your class or position, never absolute.
>>2914906vulgar materialism is a problem OP but anyone whose actually reading marx and not just being annoying on twitter knows better
>"Events of striking similarity, taking place in different historical contexts, led to totally disparate results. By studying each of these developments separately, one may easily discover the key to this phenomenon, but this will never be attained with the master-key of a general historico-philosophical theory, whose supreme virtue consists in being supra-historical." >>2914916people who say they believe in obvious bullshit are nihilists
>>2914918I am becoming extremely annoyed by people who think Marx was right about everything and find answers for everything based on some obscure marxist interpretation.
People do that with anything, really, from religion to nazism to tribal values.
I doubt extreme intellectualism, refined arguments that seem absolutely right.
>>2914916>I stufied philosophyYou mean you watch a lot of Joe Rogan
>>2914906communism literally worked irl in history, shit is real, it's like magic but it works
>>2914925>>2914923Nihilism is the idea nothing has meaning, my view is simply that I don't know.
I am sceptic.
OP is unironically right
people on this website dont even read marx yet they cherrypick quotes like its the fucking gospel. they want to believe that theyre enlightened and hold absolute truth over the cattle normies
>>2914929I mean, some people argue that communism was never implemented, communists say that all the time.
But if you are talking about China, USSR, Cuba etc, I mean, did it really worked? I don't like these societies.
>>2914927did you even read the quote? its literally saying your not gonna find a general theory to explain all historical and social phenomena. I fail to see how this is meaningfully different from what you said earlier. This isn't even an obscure interpretation but a well known Marx quote.
Socialism is when government does stuff so there is always room for improvement because you are controlling the economy.
>>2914931I am not an anti-marxist, but for some reason Marxism touches deep in society, questions about life and it matters a lot, even tho I don't think it is the nicest idea.
The problem is: i don't know what to answer for those who ask me to explain exactly, because it seems like a trap. You need to give an answer, an absolite answer about society and economics, otherwise they will stay with marx or whatever. I think most people live in a comfort zone.
>>2914933>I don't like these societiesdo you like to eat and to have electricity? people in china and rusia didn't have that shit before gomunism
>>2914940Imagine being a human being in 2026 and think you can control economy, people can't even control themselves.
Of course you can attempt to improve things, but the idea of control is a blind spot. Can you really control it? Any government has limits, there is no such thing as absolute power, in this level.
>>2914930Then why make these claims about human nature and science if you're not supposed to act like you know the truth? Are humans absolutely unpredictable? Ought we never speak authoritatively on any topic when backed by science because science is never absolute truth?
>>2914943>Imagine being a human being in 2026 and think you can control economy, people can't even control themselves.Not everyone believes what they say they believe
>>2914942People can use these arguments to defend capitalism, people even say christianity helped to end slavery.
The thing is, these arguments are always helf truths, a lot of people died of hunger because of commie governments and that is undeniable.
I am in favor of socialism, but in a more democratic way.
I don't trust these huge ideas of working class as the guide of history, the idea that people have to be communists because it is for their interests. That does not seem totally true.
>>2914945The thing is, in my experience, there will always have blind spots in any worldview or explanation.
These are because humans, and anything humam based like economy and governments, is contingent.
I acknowledge I might be wrong tho, but isn't this like a socratic standpoint? It is valid.
>>2914946I think many people thing governments have some power over everything, hence conspiracy theories.
There is conspiracy dimension to communism, that is like the idea that the ruling class has some mythical power over stuff, the economy can enter people brains and even define their entire worldview, like we are some kind of machinery defined by our circunstances, in a material level.
The fact it has some dimension of truth, doesm't mean it is true.
I see all.world leaders struggling to make the slightest change, they are always fighting, changing, gocernments have a lot of power but even dictatorships fall.
>>2914947>People can use these arguments to defend capitalism, people even say christianity helped to end slavery.Do they even believe in their own arguments? How do you know anyone does?
>>2914958I think communists in particular have a sense of certainty about private property being the root of unfairness, working class and class struggle, they have a sense of justice based on this analysis of economy and society.
I don't have this certainty, that's what I say.
>>2914967>>2914958Firthermore, I am scepitic of any argument that appeal to things in a way like: "don't you see those poor children dying of hunger? you shoild accept my worldview or you are responsible for it"
it is basically propaganda and moral terrorism. people do that which any political struggle, like palestine and israel, you have to pick a side of justice or you are on the death cult.
I don't buy these things, entirely.
Christians do the same about stuff like abortion.
People try to paint Marx as some sort of cold scientist, but he uses a lot of emotional appeal, and that is one of his mains issues.
>>2914972I'm a sceptic, I don't want to deal with nihilists who say they want to fix society but fuck shit up.
>>2914975I will never in my life use terms like "bougeoisie" and "proletariat", because it is not in my vocabulary.
I think these terms are dumb and don't explaim reality very well.
I am not a nihilist, I just do not accept anything as valod just because it has a huge claim about social justice, I mean, we all live in a postmodern world and shoil accept things are like this. I don't wanna go back.
It's because Communism is the truth. To understand this you just have to test basic economic ideas.
Why does unemployment exist?
The capitalist apologist says unemployment exists because people are too lazy and unwilling to work.
The marxist says unemployment exists because it is beneficial for the capitalist to have hundreds if not thousands of people competing for the same jobs - the so called "reserve army of labor",
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour so that capitalists can drive a hard bargain and pick the people willing to work for the least amount of wages, so they can pocket more for themselves. This is not a moral criticism it is simply an accurate and truthful description of how capitalism works, deniable only by the mentally retarded.
Now let's listen to the capitalists themselves when they are being honest. How do they approach unemployment?
https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/we-need-to-see-pain-the-developer-who-says-unemployment-must-rise-20230913-p5e48g.html
>"We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around. There’s been a systematic change where employees feel the employer is extremely lucky to have them, as opposed to the other way around. It’s a dynamic that has to change."There you have it. Capitalists want people permanently desperate and weak.
Just in case, that the truth can be known, it is from Hegel.
You make this thread every two months, dude. And it always plays out the same. Get a new hobby.
>>2915011>You make this thread every two months, dude. And it always plays out the same. Get a new hobby.>>2914906If the above is true then don't try to 'cure' communism because they have their reasons why they believe what they believe. Find something actually worthwhile to debunk.
>We can't know everything, so that's why we can't know every.
Damn, imagine if anarchists.
>absolitely impredictable
Well, that's wrong and a very dogmatic statement actually. Humans can be very predicable in many and differentways. Do you know what the word absolute means? It seems like you are trying to accuse others, especially communists of being some type of dogmatists while you are kicking down the door shouting some very wrong dogmatic beliefs here.
I've noticed that some Marxists consider themselves above the masses because they believe they possess a scientific and absolute knowledge of how society works. Not only that, but even claim that communism is inevitable.
Anything outside of it, such as anarchism, communalism, or anything that challenges or refutes Marxism is wrong and anti-intellectual. Marxism, or Marxism-Leninism, belongs to organized religion.
>>2915094I am in the early stages of inserting Dengism and Feudalism into Marxism and calling it… Marxism-Leninism.
>>2914930Oh you're septic alright
>>2914927you keep bleating over and over again that it's a religion but you can't explain why becuase you refuse to read and understand it. every time people try to explain to you you just go "see omg there they go repeating DOGMA".
You act like you are above everybody but your "arguments" are just anti-intellectual whining. Go somewhere else and be annoying, I'm sure you have youtube slop to watch
>>2914906>Facts about economics, social organization, justice and politics are not obvious.Skill issue.
>>2915112If you take ideology too seriously, it becomes a religion. A lot of people into Marxism are treating it like a religion where everything has to be parsed through a religious lens. At least that is how I interpret OP.
>>2915094OP just a stereotype of every freshman philosophy major to the point where it might genuinely be a bit
>>2915114>If you take ideology too seriously, it becomes a religion.
>A religion is when you take political ideology serious and the serious you take it the more religiously it becomes.LMFAO.
>>2915125Yes. At least the Abrahamic religions started out as nationalist projects. Can't say anything about other religions but you have to be historically uneducated to ignore how Judaism, a Persian project, Christianity, a Jewish/Roman project and Islam, a Jewish/Yemenite project.
>>2915140Had direct nation-building tendencies and objectives.
>>2915140>At least the Abrahamic religions started out as nationalist projectsWrong. They all started out as explicitly anti-nationalist projects.
In Judaism God only supports Jews if they're behaving righteously. As soon as they fuck up he throws them against the wall and punishes them severely with famines, invasions, exile, etc.
As for Christianity Jesus was explicitly against the Jewish Nationalist politics of his time. The Jews of his time wanted to launch a military revolt against the Roman Empire to reclaim the land.
In Islam IIRC Mohammad was nomadic, and in the present day it's clear that Arabs care far more about how Islamic a country is than about petty nationalism, as can be seen by revolts and uprisings in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, etc. under the pretext of "not being Islamic enough".
>>2915282>In Judaism God only supports Jews if they're behaving righteously. As soon as they fuck up he throws them against the wall and punishes them severely with famines, invasions, exile, etc.This is a weak point which only relies on fairy tales in the bible. Judaism is an ethno-nationalist religion of the Jewish people. Myths about how the Jews will be punished doesn't change that. It was centered in Judea and more specifically on the second temple and used as a religious justification for revolts against the Seleucids, Romans, etc. Zionist nationalism is a modern take on the nationalism of the Hasmoneans et al.
>As for Christianity Jesus was explicitly against the Jewish Nationalist politics of his time. The Jews of his time wanted to launch a military revolt against the Roman Empire to reclaim the land. True. But the Jewish Nationalist politics was just an outgrowth of Judaism's inherent nationalism. You could say that Judaism is actually the most nationalist and racist religion: it claims that the Jews are god's chosen people. This clearly places them above all others.
>>2915094>I've noticed that some Marxists consider themselves above the masses because they believe they possess a scientific and absolute knowledge of how society works. Not only that, but even claim that communism is inevitable.
>Anything outside of it, such as anarchism, communalism, or anything that challenges or refutes Marxism is wrong and anti-intellectual. Marxism, or Marxism-Leninism, belongs to organized religion.This is like if you flattened Abrahamism into materialism and cut off branches like theology and spirituality. Surely something will break.
If something is unquestionably right then it is religion. That's how you define one, holy dogma. Marxisms function like materialist religions that don't want to be known as religions.
Marxism compares perfectly to Scientology
Marxism requires you to be literate and willing to spend a decently long time studying, people willing to do that are usually going to be more opinionated than those who don't. It's also a critical theory of changing the world, which means that there's an urgency of action involved and thus, positions on economics, politics, society, etc.
>>2915314>X requires you to be literate and willing to spend a decently long time studying>there's an urgency of action involved in XThat's recipe for a really really bad time, iykyk
>>2915316That's why it doesn't work without a socialist movement, why Marx's political interventions were about criticizing the ones that were already active, and why post-Marx, socialist parties had to build institutions for simultaneous study and action… There's a lot of work ahead
>>2915320>That's why it doesn't work without a socialist movement, why Marx's political interventions were about criticizing the ones that were already active, and why post-Marx, socialist parties had to build institutions for simultaneous study and action… There's a lot of work aheadI think Nietzsche warned about not becoming the things you fight
>>2914911This is such a low quality reply it makes me suspicious. Like if I were OP and I wanted to craft a reply so dumb it proved my point, this would be it.
>>2915282>Judaism is actually the most nationalist and racist religion: it claims that the Jews are god's chosen people. This clearly places them above all others.Correct.
>>2915310They are nationalist projects because they intend to create new nations based on specific ideological frameworks, that given enough time create distinct genetic phenotypes. This is how the Mandeans are also a distinct ethnic group based on their religion which prohibits conversion and proselytism. Even Natsocs have behavior models for "their own" people how a "true aryan" should behave. This selection process does not contradict it being a national-centric project.
>There is no physical science that is absolutely true, even mathematics has its blind spots, why should human and social sciences be?you're onto something here OP, which is why you get reactions like
>>2914911, you're digging dangerously close to the spot where all the bodies are buried
>>2914906If you had read the beginning of chapter two of the Communist Manifesto you would already have an idea of the answer to your questions:
<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.
<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.
<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.
<The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are in no way based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.
<They merely express, in general terms, actual relations springing from an existing class struggle, from a historical movement going on under our very eyes.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II: Proletarians and Communistshttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htmThe preamble of the communist manifesto states the reasons why it was written:
<A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.
<Where is the party in opposition that has not been decried as communistic by its opponents in power? Where is the opposition that has not hurled back the branding reproach of communism, against the more advanced opposition parties, as well as against its reactionary adversaries?
<Two things result from this fact:
<I. Communism is already acknowledged by all European powers to be itself a power.
<II. It is high time that Communists should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, their tendencies, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Communism with a manifesto of the party itself.
<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Preamblehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htmAs you can see communists will confront the "common sense" that the propertied classes cultivate to pacify the masses by following the antagonistic class interests that already exist in society.
<[b]The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it[/b]. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance. The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self-evident that they do this in its whole range, hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the ideas of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch. For instance, in an age and in a country where royal power, aristocracy, and bourgeoisie are contending for mastery and where, therefore, mastery is shared, the doctrine of the separation of powers proves to be the dominant idea and is expressed as an “eternal law.”
<Karl Marx, 1845, The German Ideology, Part I: Feuerbach, Opposition of the Materialist and Idealist Outlook, B. The Illusion of the Epoch, Ruling Class and Ruling Ideashttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01b.htmAs you can see here, what you're asking for is to subordinate oneself, along with others, to the ideas of the ruling class, which spreads its ideas in accordance with its class interests. So why couldn't the working class spread opposing ideas, following its own class interests that are antagonistic to those of the bourgeoisie?
>Why are Communists so confident?? Can't you guys be a bit more insecure, cowardly and pussy-whipped like us anarchists
This is the funniest thread all month.
Why did communists put BBÇ into my mother's mouth?
>>2914972"moral terrorism" lmao ur actually bitchmade
>>2915980So, the ideas of bourge is - uncerteinity, nothing can be known for sure, etc. It is also AFAIK Kant, but Hegel rebels agaisnt him. The communists.. or workers that had enough of this uncertainity, too, say the truth can be known.
>>2916023>"moral terrorism" lmao ur actually bitchmadeRape allegations + Trying to control the spectacle = Moral Terrorism
>>2916659It's 4/pol/ and 4/gif/.
No one goons anymore, it's all spectacle.
>>2915991The anarchists of California would like a word with you
>>2914929>communism literally worked irl in historyIf by "worked" you mean failed miserably. Every communist country has become an impoverished shit hole until they collapsed or switched to fascism (China, Russia, Vietnam).
>>2915394I look like this
socialism in one country doesn't work bro.
>>2914906>Communism seems to me like propaganda, it has no basis in realityyou only think this because you're retarded. this is your, what, 5th thread this week trying to debooonk gommunism?
>>2914972it is not moral terrorism to say that murdering children is bad you weird ayn rand sycophant
>>29178202026: the only people who say 'thats not real communism' are liberals who are mad that communism works
>>2914929We will make it work no matter the cost.
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