[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]

/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internet about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
Name
Options
Subject
Comment
Flag
File
Embed
Password(For file deletion.)

Check out our new store at shop.leftypol.org!


File: 1790287260114-9.jpg (13.75 KB, 388x515, 2626622.jpg)

 

Why were so many communist leaders so callous about the lives of workers?
It seems like they cared more about trying to create a productive developed society than the people that society would actually be created for.

in the mid 20th century the meta-game of geopolitics was to keep the periphery under-developed and overexploited so it could be used for cheap labor andnatural resources, but would not rapidly develop enough to become a military or economic competitor with the core. The bourgeoisie learned from the mistake they made with Japan and didn't want anymore "backwards" countries catching up too fast. This led to the communist and nationalist leaders of the mid 20th century peripheral nations fundamentally acting as bourgeois revolutionaries. They fulfilled the same historical role of a Cromwell, Washington, Louverture, Bolivar, or Robespierre.

Also the paradox of the phrase "communist leaders" should be palpable. Isn't the proletariat as a class supposed to liberate itself? Not follow a charismatic leader into a new and more productive form of class society?

As always, truth seekers who want to change the world become power seekers, and once power seekers get the power they are after, they can no longer be the person theyd dreamed of being, not simply because "power corrupts" but because having power carries with it an entire new set of contradictions and incentives that being powerless did not.

>>2920042
>Not follow a charismatic leader into a new and more productive form of class society?
its funny and tragic at the same time how most people who consider themselves communists completely disagree with this and think its all about the state making line go up but red

>>2920038
Eastern communist thought is best understood as "liberalism without liberals." They understood their role as fulfilling the promises of the bourgeois revolution (national self-determination, modernization, industrial development) through the single-party state instead of through a liberal democracy. Actual emancipation of the working class was always a side goal that could be ignored when expedient, and true liberation would happen at some time in the distant future.

>>2920222 Best summary of the situation lowk. Average eople who weren't already communists probably liked Mao in large part because he promised them everything that Sun Yatsen did previously, just with more extreme rhetoric and a more coherent plan for economic development (and also he was, you know, still alive).

>>2920042
>Also the paradox of the phrase "communist leaders" should be palpable. Isn't the proletariat as a class supposed to liberate itself? Not follow a charismatic leader into a new and more productive form of class society?

When I signed up for Communism(TM) it didn't say anywhere in the tos that the movement had to be completely planar and couldn't organize itself into any kind of structure with a head. I think you're thinking of anarchists

File: 1790357592389-0.png (432.98 KB, 770x1280, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2920364
>>2920222
>Eastern communist thought is best understood as "liberalism without liberals." They understood their role as fulfilling the promises of the bourgeois revolution (national self-determination, modernization, industrial development) through the single-party state instead of through a liberal democracy.

>>2920222
>Eastern communist thought is best understood as "liberalism without liberals." They understood their role as fulfilling the promises of the bourgeois revolution (national self-determination, modernization, industrial development) through the single-party state instead of through a liberal democracy.
So it really is just the spread of the Meiji Restoration westward to Russia and China.

>>2920222
They were liberal revolutions but using communism as a vessel cause the dead weight on the present

>>2920222
The only wrong thing is calling it "eastern communism". Cause this also happened in Germany.

>>2920492
East-of-the-Elbe communism

>>2920038
>Why were so many communist leaders so callous about the lives of workers?
They weren't.


>>2920042
So you are denying that the proletarian class should achieve organized political supremacy as a class in its own party and suppress all who deny this. You also deny that other working classes should act only according to what they have in common with the supremacy of the proletarian class, being incapable of independence. You are asking communists to subordinate the theory of scientific socialism to spontaneity.

Let's see with quotes that your opinion goes against scientific socialism:

<Against the collective power of the propertied classes the working class cannot act, as a class, except by constituting itself into a political party, distinct from, and opposed to, all old parties formed by the propertied classes.


<This constitution of the working class into a political party is indispensable in order to insure the triumph of the social revolution and its ultimate end – the abolition of classes.


<The combination of forces which the working class has already effected by its economical struggles ought at the same time to serve as a lever for its struggles against the political power of landlords and capitalists.


<The lords of the land and the lords of capital will always use their political privileges for the defense and perpetuation of their economical monopolies and for enslaving labor. To conquer political power has therefore become the great duty of the working classes.


<The International Working Men's Association, 1872, Resolution on the establishment of working-class parties


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1872/hague-conference/parties.htm

As you can see, the First International, in which Marx and Engels participated, disagrees with you. Communists must have a workers' party distinct from the parties of the bourgeoisie so that the proletariat can acquire its political supremacy by propagating its ideas to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, and so that there is no co-optation of the masses to serve the bourgeoisie.

Another quote demonstrating what a communist is with Marx and Engels:

<The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.


<The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand, practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.


<The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

[…]
<The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.

<In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

[…]
<The average price of wage-labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer. What, therefore, the wage-labourer appropriates by means of his labour, merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labour, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labour of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.

<In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In Communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.


<In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in Communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.


<And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.


<By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.


<But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other “brave words” of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the Communistic abolition of buying and selling, of the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.

[…]
<The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.

<Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

[…]
<When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

<In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II: Proletarians and Communists


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

>>2920222
Incorrect. Marx and Engels supported the idea that a socialist revolution should be carried out as soon as possible without waiting for capitalism to develop "on its own" and destroy the peasantry. Lenin's policy of worker-peasant alliance, developing agricultural cooperatives, and using state capitalism as a transition from semi-feudalism and undeveloped capitalism to socialism is in accordance with Marx and Engels.

<We, of course, are decidedly on the side of the small peasant; we shall do everything at all permissible to make his lot more bearable, to facilitate his transition to the co-operative should he decide to do so, and even to make it possible for him to remain on his small holding for a protracted length of time to think the matter over, should he still be unable to bring himself to this decision. We do this not only because we consider the small peasant living by his own labor as virtually belonging to us, but also in the direct interest of the Party. The greater the number of peasants whom we can save from being actually hurled down into the proletariat, whom we can win to our side while they are still peasants, the more quickly and easily the social transformation will be accomplished. It will serve us no reason to wait with this transformation until capitalist production has developed everywhere to its extreme consequences, until the last small craftsman and the last small peasant have fallen victim to capitalist large-scale production.


<Engels, 1894, The Peasant Question in France and Germany


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/peasant-question/ch02.htm

Lenin reiterates that it is feasable and necessary to implement measures of proletarian state-control, which is not socialism, but a step towards it:

<Under no circumstances can the party of the proletariat set itself the aim of “introducing” socialism in a country of small peasants so long as the overwhelming majority of the population has not come to realise the need for a socialist revolution.


<But only bourgeois sophists, hiding behind “near-Marxist” catchwords, can deduce from this truth a justification of the policy of post poning immediate revolutionary measures, the time for which is fully ripe; measures which have been frequently resorted to during the war by a number of bourgeois states… the nationalisation of the land, of all the banks and capitalist syndicates, or, at least, the immediate establishment of the control of the Soviets of Workers’ Deputies, etc., over them… which are only steps towards socialism, and which are perfectly feasible economically.


<Lenin, The Tasks of the Proletariat in Our Revolution (1917)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/tasks/ch09.htm

This is what Lenin said in 1923:

<Infinitely stereotyped, for instance, is the argument they learned by rote during the development of West-European Social-Democracy, namely, that we are not yet ripe for socialism, but as certain “learned” gentleman among them put it, the objective economic premises for socialism do not exist in our country… “The development of the productive forces of Russia has not yet attained the level that makes socialism possible.” All the heroes of the Second International, including, of course, Sukhanov, beat the drums about this proposition. They keep harping on this incontrovertible proposition in a thousand different keys, and think that it is decisive criterion of our revolution… You say that civilization is necessary for the building of socialism. Very good. But why could we not first create such prerequisites of civilization in our country by the expulsion of the landowners and the Russian capitalists, and then start moving toward socialism? Where, in what books, have you read that such variations of the customary historical sequence of events are impermissible or impossible?


<Lenin, “Our Revolution” (1923)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/jan/16.htm

Lenin’s opponents claimed that Lenin was going backwards and betraying socialism by advocating development on state-capitalist lines. Lenin reminded them of what he said already in 1917:

<For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly. Or, in other words, socialism is merely state-capitalist monopoly which is made to serve the interests of the whole people and has to that extent ceased to be capitalist monopoly.


[…]

<Imperialist war is the eve of socialist revolution. And this not only because the horrors of the war give rise to proletarian revolt—no revolt can bring about socialism unless the economic conditions for socialism are ripe—but because state-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs.


<Lenin, “The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat it” (1917)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/11.htm

Lenin of course, was a communist. He wanted Socialism and communism.

In the early 1920s Lenin argued strongly in favor of building socialism and said it was no longer a matter of the distant future, but something viable that could be built during the immediately following years:

<Socialism is no longer a matter of the distant future, or an abstract picture, or an icon. Our opinion of icons is the same—a very bad one. We have brought socialism into everyday life and must here see how matters stand. That is the task of our day, the task of our epoch. Permit me to conclude by expressing confidence that difficult as this task may be, new as it may be compared with our previous task, and numerous as the difficulties may be that it entails, we shall all—not in a day, but in a few years—all of us together fulfil it whatever the cost, so that NEP Russia will become socialist Russia.


<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Speech At A Plenary Session Of The Moscow Soviet, November 20, 1922


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/nov/20.htm

Waiting to hold elections instead of seizing power to consolidate the supremacy of the dictatorship of the proletariat is one of the mistakes Marx identified regarding the Paris Commune:

<If you look at the last chapter of my Eighteenth Brumaire you will find that I say that the next attempt of the French revolution will be no longer, as before, to transfer the bureaucratic-military machine from one hand to another, but to smash it, and this is essential for every real people's revolution on the Continent. And this is what our heroic Party comrades in Paris are attempting. What elasticity, what historical initiative, what a capacity for sacrifice in these Parisians! After six months of hunger and ruin, caused rather by internal treachery than by the external enemy, they rise, beneath Prussian bayonets, as if there had never been a war between France and Germany and the enemy were not at the gates of Paris. History has no like example of a like greatness. If they are defeated only their “good nature” will be to blame. They should have marched at once on Versailles, after first Vinoy and then the reactionary section of the Paris National Guard had themselves retreated. The right moment was missed because of conscientious scruples. They did not want to start the civil war, as if that mischievous abortion Thiers had not already started the civil war with his attempt to disarm Paris. Second mistake: The Central Committee surrendered its power too soon, to make way for the Commune. Again from a too “honorable” scrupulosity! However that may be, the present rising in Paris – even if it be crushed by the wolves, swine and vile curs of the old society – is the most glorious deed of our Party since the June insurrection in Paris. Compare these Parisians, storming heaven, with the slave to heaven of the German-Prussian Holy Roman Empire, with its posthumous masquerades reeking of the barracks, the Church, cabbage-junkerdom and above all, of the philistine.


<Marx to Dr Kugelmann Concerning the Paris Commune, April 12, 1871


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/letters/71_04_12.htm

File: 1790400926798-1.png (965.3 KB, 961x659, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2920544
>accusations of anon saying a bunch of shit that anon did not say, taking the form of "you deny this, you deny that"

why do you talk like that bro? like why don't you just ask someone to clarify what they mean? why not say "do you deny this, do you deny that?" but no you just make up a bunch of accusations. do you think you're a prosecutor?

>>2920038
Power corrupts and people never learn this.

>>2920562
this is all true but Lenin also correctly predicted that the revolution towards socialism couldn't be carried out until the capitalistically advanced nations like france and germany had their own dotp because the tasks involved in industrializing a peasant society are different from those of an industrial society

>>2920730
I recognize the types of opportunism lurking between the lines and the extent to which such rhetoric threatens to mislead the uninformed, preventing them from reading scientific socialist theory or organizing to defend the supremacy of the proletarian class. That is why I level these accusations.

>>2920780
You are mistaken. While a revolution in Germany would have been a better scenario, that does not alter the proletariat's duty to seize power; Marx and Engels themselves had already observed the bourgeoisie becoming increasingly conservative and reactionary as the proletariat developed. Lenin recognized this when the bourgeoisie, viewing the proletariat as an enemy, showed no interest in completing the bourgeois revolutions; furthermore, imperialist capitalism was integrating aristocrats and reactionaries, thereby creating obstacles for the proletariat.

Tsarist Russia entered a precarious state by collaborating with the British capitalist imperialism of the time. Revolutionary socialists organized in urban areas and spread throughout the country. What occurred was mass collective organization, enabling the proletariat to achieve political supremacy and socialize the economy.

This aligns with what Marx and Engels wrote regarding Russia:This aligns with what Marx and Engels wrote regarding Russia:

<During the Revolution of 1848-9, not only the European princes, but the European bourgeois as well, found their only salvation from the proletariat just beginning to awaken in Russian intervention. The Tsar was proclaimed the chief of European reaction. Today, he is a prisoner of war of the revolution in Gatchina [B], and Russia forms the vanguard of revolutionary action in Europe.


<The Communist Manifesto had, as its object, the proclamation of the inevitable impending dissolution of modern bourgeois property. But in Russia we find, face-to-face with the rapidly flowering capitalist swindle and bourgeois property, just beginning to develop, more than half the land owned in common by the peasants. Now the question is: can the Russian obshchina, though greatly undermined, yet a form of primeval common ownership of land, pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership? Or, on the contrary, must it first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West?


<The only answer to that possible today is this: If the Russian Revolution becomes the signal for a proletarian revolution in the West, so that both complement each other, the present Russian common ownership of land may serve as the starting point for a communist development.


<Karl Marx & Frederick Engels, January 21, 1882, London, Preface of the Communist Manifesto, The 1882 Russian Edition


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/preface.htm

Furthermore, Lenin’s actions were not about industrialization for its own sake, but rather about connecting the country's isolated peasants and accustoming them to collective work in agricultural cooperatives, while acquiring tools, machines, books, and techniques for organizing workers; this is because state capitalism is superior to small-scale peasant commodity production and private capitalism, and—moreover—it makes socializing the economy much easier.

To understand this, I offer two quotes, starting with the issue of cooperatives:

<As a matter of fact, the political power of the Soviet over all large-scale means of production, the power in the state in the hands of the proletariat, the alliance of this proletariat with the many millions of small and very small peasants, the assured leadership of the peasantry by the proletariat, etc, …is not this all that is necessary in order from the co-operatives – from the co-operatives alone, which we formerly treated as huckstering, and which, from a certain aspect, we have the right to treat as such now, under the new economic policy – is not this all that is necessary in order to build a complete socialist society? This is not yet the building of socialist society but it is all that is necessary and sufficient for this building.


<Lenin, “On Cooperation” (1923)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1923/jan/06.htm

Now, regarding the issue of those who do not wish to take action against imperialist capitalism and organize against it:

<Firstly, socialists have never been, nor can they ever be, opposed to revolutionary wars. The bourgeoisie of the imperialist "Great" Powers has become thoroughly reactionary, and the war this bourgeoisie is now waging we regard as a reactionary, slave-owners' and criminal war.But what about a war against this bourgeoisie? A war, for instance, waged by peoples oppressed by and dependent upon this bourgeoisie, or by colonial peoples, for liberation? In Section 5 of the Internationale group these we read: "National wars are no longer possible in the era of this unbridled imperialism." That is obviously wrong.


<The history of the 20th century, this century of "unbridled imperialism," is replete with colonial wars. But what we Europeans, the imperialist oppressors of the majority of the world's peoples, with our habitual, despicable European chauvinism, call "colonial wars" are often national wars, or national rebellions of these oppressed peoples. One of the main features of imperialism is that it accelerates capitalist development in the most backward countries, and thereby extends and intensifies the struggle against national oppression.That is a fact, and from it inevitably follows that imperialism must often give rise to national wars. Junius, who defends the above-quoted "theses" in her pamphlet, says that in the imperialist era every national war against an imperialist Great Power leads to intervention of a rival imperialist Great Power. Every national war is this turned into an imperialist war. But that argument is wrong, too. This can happen, but does not always happen. Many colonial wars between 1900 and 1914 did not follow that course. And it would be simply ridiculous to declare, for instance, that after the present war, if it ends in the utter exhaustion of all the belligerents, "there can be no" national, progress, revolutionary wars "of any kind", wages, say, by China in alliance with India, Persia, Siam, etc., against the Great Powers.


<To deny all possibility of national wars under imperialism is wrong in theory, obviously mistaken historically, and tantamount to European chauvinism in practice: we who belong to nations that oppress hundreds of millions in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., are invited to tell the oppressed peoples that it is "impossible" for them to wage war against "our" nations!


<Secondly, civil war is just as much a war as any other. He who accepts the class struggle cannot fail to accept civil wars, which in every class society are the natural, and under certain conditions inevitable, continuation, development and intensification of the class struggle. That has been confirmed by every great revolution. To repudiate civil war, or to forget about it, is to fall into extreme opportunism and renounce the socialist revolution.


<Thirdly, the victory of socialism in one country does not at one stroke eliminate all wars in general. On the contrary, it presupposes wars.The development of capitalism proceeds extremely unevenly in different countries. It cannot be otherwise under commodity production. From this it follows irrefutably that socialism cannot achieve victory simultaneously in all countries. It will achieve victory first in one or several countries, while the others will for some time remain bourgeois or pre-bourgeois.This is bound to create not only friction, but a direct attempt on the part of the bourgeoisie of other countries to crush the socialist state's victorious proletariat. In such cases, a war on our part would be a legitimate and just war. It would be a war for socialism, for the liberation of other nations from the bourgeoisie. Engels was perfectly right when, in his letter to Kautsky of September 12, 1882, he clearly stated that it was possible for already victorious socialism to wage "defensive wars". What he had in mind was defense of the victorious proletariat against the bourgeoisie of other countries.


<Only after we have overthrown, finally vanquished and expropriated the bourgeoisie of the whole world, and not merely in one country, will wars become impossible. And from a scientific point of view it would be utterly wrong—and utterly unrevolutionary—for us to evade or gloss over the most important things: crushing the resistance of the bourgeoisie—the most difficult task, and one demanding the greatest amount of fighting, in the transition to socialism. The "social" parsons and opportunists are always ready to build dreams of future peaceful socialism. But the very thing that distinguishes them from revolutionary Social-Democrats is that they refuse to think about and reflect on the fierce class struggle and class wars needed to achieve that beautiful future.


<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1916, The Military Programme of the Proletarian Revolution: I


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/miliprog/i.htm

One thing to understand about the Russian Revolution is that the Bolsheviks had already carried out agrarian reform and expropriated Russian capitalists and aristocrats; the Tsarist aristocracy was already collaborating with the British imperialist capitalism developing in urban areas, and this collaboration was preventing even bourgeois rights from developing.

Now I will leave a quote about state capitalism in Lenin's time that many don't understand:

<But what does the word “transition” mean? Does it not mean, as applied to an economy, that the present system contains elements, particles, fragments of both capitalism and socialism? Everyone will admit that it does. But not all who admit this take the trouble to consider what elements actually constitute the various socio-economic structures that exist in Russia at the present time. And this is the crux of the question.


<Let us enumerate these elements:


<(1)patriarchal, i.e., to a considerable extent natural, peasant farming;


<(2)small commodity production (this includcs the majority of those peasants who sell their grain);


<(3)private capitalism;


<(4)state capitalism;


<(5)socialism.

[…]
<The question arises: What elements predominate? Clearly, in a small-peasant country, the petty-bourgeois element predominates and it must predominate, for the great majority—those working the land—are small commodity producers. The shell of state capitalism (grain monopoly, state-controlled entrepreneurs and traders, bourgeois co-operators) is pierced now in one place, now in another by profiteers, the chief object of profiteering being grain.

<It is in this field that the main struggle is being waged. Between what elements is this struggle being waged if we are to speak in terms of economic categories such as “state capitalism”? Between the fourth and fifth in the order in which I have just enumerated them? Of course not. It is not state capitalism that is at war with socialism, but the petty bourgeoisie plus private capitalism fighting together against state capitalism and socialism. The petty bourgeoisie oppose every kind of state interference, accounting and control, whether it be state-capitalist or state-socialist. This is an unquestionable fact of reality whose misunderstanding lies at the root of many economic mistakes. The profiteer, the commercial racketeer, the disrupter of monopoly—these are our principal “internal” enemies, the enemies of the economic measures of the Soviet power. A hundred and twenty-five years ago it might have been excusable for the French petty bourgeoisie, the most ardent and sincere revolutionaries, to try to crush the profiteer by executing a few of the “chosen” and by making thunderous declarations. Today, however, the purely French approach to the question assumed by some Left Socialist-Revolutionaries can arouse nothing but disgust and revulsion in every politically conscious revolutionary. We know perfectly well that the economic basis of profiteering is both the small proprietors, who are exceptionally widespread in Russia, and private capitalism, of which every petty bourgeois is an agent. We know that the million tentacles of this petty-bourgeois octopus now and again encircle various sections of the workers, that instead of state monopoly, profiteering forces its way into every pore of our social and economic organism.


<Those who fail to see this show by their blindness that they are slaves of petty-bourgeois prejudices….


<The petty bourgeoisie have money put away, the few thousands that they made during the war by “honest” and especially by dishonest means. They are the characteristic economic type, that is, the basis of profiteering and private capitalism. Money is a certificate entitling the possessor to receive social wealth; and a vast section of small proprietors, numbering millions, cling to this certificate and conceal it from the “state”. They do not believe in socialism or communism, and “mark time” until the proletarian storm blows over. Either we subordinate the petty bourgeoisie to our control and accounting (we can do this if we organise the poor, that is, the majority of the population or semi-proletarians, round the politically conscious proletarian vanguard), or they will overthrow our workers’ power as surely and as inevitably as the revolution was overthrown by the Napoleons and the Cavaignacs who sprang from this very soil of petty proprietorship. That is how the question stands. That is the only view we can take of the matter….


<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1921, The Tax in Kind, (The Significance Of The New Policy And Its Conditions)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/apr/21.htm

>>2920544
>So you are denying that the proletarian class should achieve organized political supremacy as a class in its own party and suppress all who deny this
Didn't happen.

this is a question for EVERYONE but the two anons

Anon 1 said this:

>in the mid 20th century the meta-game of geopolitics was to keep the periphery under-developed and overexploited so it could be used for cheap labor andnatural resources, but would not rapidly develop enough to become a military or economic competitor with the core. The bourgeoisie learned from the mistake they made with Japan and didn't want anymore "backwards" countries catching up too fast. This led to the communist and nationalist leaders of the mid 20th century peripheral nations fundamentally acting as bourgeois revolutionaries. They fulfilled the same historical role of a Cromwell, Washington, Louverture, Bolivar, or Robespierre. Also the paradox of the phrase "communist leaders" should be palpable. Isn't the proletariat as a class supposed to liberate itself? Not follow a charismatic leader into a new and more productive form of class society? As always, truth seekers who want to change the world become power seekers, and once power seekers get the power they are after, they can no longer be the person theyd dreamed of being, not simply because "power corrupts" but because having power carries with it an entire new set of contradictions and incentives that being powerless did not.


Anon 2 said this:

<So you are denying that the proletarian class should achieve organized political supremacy as a class in its own party and suppress all who deny this. You also deny that other working classes should act only according to what they have in common with the supremacy of the proletarian class, being incapable of independence. You are asking communists to subordinate the theory of scientific socialism to spontaneity.


How did Anon 2 derive that interpretation from Anon 1?

>>2920928
Communist intellectuals see the independence and self-activity of the proletariat as a threat to their authority which must at all costs be stamped out.

>>2920928
>How did Anon 2 derive that interpretation from Anon 1?
he has the woke mind virus

>>2920987
This x1000. It's why they always say the state must control everything and never even entertain collective ownership. They always insist they, personally, are the representative of the proles' interests and, therefore, everything must be under their personal control (because they say so).

>>2920987
>>2921111
What independence or self activity do you see proles getting up to besides staring at their phones and ripping awful tasting weed carts?

If you’ve ever worked or met the average worker you’d know why “democracy” and “dictatorship of the proletariat” are both ridiculous

File: 1790488879038-4-0.png (246.73 KB, 1800x648, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1790488879038-5-1.png (206.9 KB, 1800x716, ClipboardImage.png)

File: 1790488879038-8-2.png (186.54 KB, 850x400, ClipboardImage.png)


>>2921239
How doesn’t this just invalidate DOTP as a concept entirely?

>>2921240
idk maybe try writing more than one sentence and tell me what you thought of the posts

>>2921243
I don’t know, why wouldn’t government be a 40 hour full time job like any other job?

>>2921245
ok so you didn't read the screenshots, you're just asking unrelated questions. i kinda hate you right now

>>2921243
The posts are nothing more than concession to reality rather than actively changing and shaping reality, it’s cope on top of cope on top of cope for laziness and resignation

File: 1790489571002-3.gif (1.54 MB, 480x270, IMG_2523.gif)

>>2921250
I welcome your hatred

>>2921245
People who work for the government should be pulling 12 hour shifts. One guy handles daytime requests the other guy handles nighttime requests. The government should never sleep. If you call a government hotline it should always be open 24/7. If you disagree you are a capitalist. The government should ALWAYS be ready to respond to its citizens.

>>2921303
Or three shifts that slightly overlap

>>2920927
Nowhere in the texts of Marx and Engels is it stated that the proletarian class will spontaneously carry out a revolution; furthermore, the role of communists is not to alleviate suffering but to guide the proletariat to organize itself as a class into its own party—independent of the bourgeoisie—so that it may achieve political dominance, become the new ruling class, and abolish private property, the anarchy of production, and the propertied classes. This entails preparing workers to overthrow the bourgeois state and establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.

The dictatorship of the proletariat maintains the supremacy of the proletarian class; all successful communist revolutions have heeded the criticisms Marx leveled against the Paris Commune. The first of these concerns initiating the revolution at a favorable moment—and preparing the workers for that moment—which is what Lenin termed a "revolutionary situation."

The second criticism concerns the time wasted on holding elections, thereby allowing the revolution's counter-revolutionary enemies to regroup and defend the bourgeois state. Successful communist revolutions avoided this error by consolidating the supremacy of the proletariat—establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat—and eliminating all vestiges of resistance from the former bourgeois state and any counter-revolutionaries who might hinder the socialization of the economy and the dominance of the proletariat organized as a class.

The third criticism made by Marx and Engels was that the Commune had been naive in failing to even attempt to seize the Bank of Paris. Successful communist revolutions made sure to nationalize all banks as quickly as possible.

>>2920928
I can draw this conclusion regarding any discourse that denies the supremacy of the proletarian class—organized as a class to spread revolutionary terror against liberals, reactionaries, class-collaborationists, counter-revolutionaries, decentralization fantasists, and those who refuse to act solely on the basis of what they share with the supremacy of the proletarian class.

Let's look at a quote to understand my point:

<Let us take another example — the railway. Here too the co-operation of an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the Hon. passengers were abolished?


<But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.


<When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.


<We have thus seen that, on the one hand, a certain authority, no matter how delegated, and, on the other hand, a certain subordination, are things which, independently of all social organisation, are imposed upon us together with the material conditions under which we produce and make products circulate.


<We have seen, besides, that the material conditions of production and circulation inevitably develop with large-scale industry and large-scale agriculture, and increasingly tend to enlarge the scope of this authority. Hence it is absurd to speak of the principle of authority as being absolutely evil, and of the principle of autonomy as being absolutely good. Authority and autonomy are relative things whose spheres vary with the various phases of the development of society. If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other; but they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they passionately fight against the word.


<Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?


<Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.


<Works of Frederick Engels, 1872, On Authority


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

Communists are the most advanced sector of the workers; they advance the working-class movement into a party independent of the bourgeoisie, working toward the supremacy of the proletarian class and advancing the interests of the working classes of the world as a whole. A communist may come from the intelligentsia or the petty bourgeoisie, provided they act solely in accordance with the supremacy of the proletarian class; this is not a matter of any popular opinion a worker might hold, but rather the class interests of the proletariat. A bourgeois individual can be a communist provided they accept the extinction of their own class and acknowledge that the proletariat is the revolutionary agent destined to become the new ruling class—abolishing private property, the anarchy of production, and social classes by overthrowing the bourgeois state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.

>>2921111
>>2920987
You are making the mistake of the so-called "Economists" who worshipped spontaneity and were subservient to it, believing that the masses will supposedly develop revolutionary socialist consciousness so that communists remain passive, allowing the masses to be co-opted by the bourgeoisie or have their movement wither away without direction. In this case, you are more wrong than the cautious communists who don't want to do anything because any spontaneous movement would be co-opted by the bourgeoisie. The correct approach is to take advantage of spontaneity to spread communist propaganda, making co-optation more difficult, even if the movement withers because all the media, along with the bourgeoisie and the so-called middle class, become hostile to it due to slogans defending economic sovereignty, the defense of public property, and the democratization of the economy, demanding the participation of the population in everything without any "techocrats." It would also be necessary to beat liberals in the streets until the masses accept that all classes must serve the supremacy of the proletariat to socialize the economy and abolish social classes.

I'll leave a warning quote for those romanticizing depoliticized spontaneity who try to seek an "organic" movement against the "authoritarianism" of building the workers' movement for proletarian domination, defending economic sovereignty, and democratizing with popular councils for greater participation in the economy without letting politicians and so-called "technocrats" negotiate behind closed doors with the bourgeoisie. This is why the workers' movement must be independent of the bourgeoisie without exception and never regress to generic discourses of "corruption" that demonstrate co-optation by the bourgeoisie to privatize and surrender as lackeys to the finance capital of capitalist imperialism.

<Since there can be no talk of an independent ideology formulated by the working masses themselves in the process of their movement,[15] the only choice is — either bourgeois or socialist ideology. There is no middle course (for mankind has not created a “third” ideology, and, moreover, in a society torn by class antagonisms there can never be a non-class or an above-class ideology). Hence, to belittle the socialist ideology in any way, to turn aside from it in the slightest degree means to strengthen bourgeois ideology. There is much talk of spontaneity. But the spontaneous development of the working-class movement leads to its subordination to bourgeois ideology, to its development along the lines of the Credo programme; for the spontaneous working-class movement is trade-unionism, is Nur-Gewerkschaftlerei, and trade unionism means the ideological enslavement of the workers by the bourgeoisie. Hence, our task, the task of Social-Democracy, is to combat spontaneity, to divert the working-class movement from this spontaneous, trade-unionist striving to come under the wing of the bourgeoisie, and to bring it under the wing of revolutionary Social Democracy. The sentence employed by the authors of the Economist letter published in Iskra, No. 12, that the efforts of the most inspired ideologists fail to divert the working-class movement from the path that is determined by the interaction of the material elements and the material environment is therefore tantamount to renouncing socialism. If these authors were capable of fearlessly, consistently, and thoroughly considering what they say, as everyone who enters the arena of literary and public activity should be, there would be nothing left for them but to “fold their useless arms over their empty breasts” and surrender the field of action to the Struves and Prokopoviches, who are dragging the working-class movement “along the line of least resistance”, i.e., along the line of bourgeois trade-unionism, or to the Zubatovs, who are dragging it along the line of clerical and gendarme “ideology”.


<Let us recall the example of Germany. What was the historic service Lassalle rendered to the German working-class movement? It was that he diverted that movement from the path of progressionist trade-unionism and co-operativism towards which it had been spontaneously moving (with the benign assistance of Schulze-Delitzsch and his like). To fulfil such a task it was necessary to do something quite different from talking of underrating the spontaneous element, of tactics-as-process, of the interaction between elements and environment, etc. A fierce struggle against spontaneity was necessary, and only after such a struggle, extending over many years, was it possible, for instance, to convert the working population of Berlin from a bulwark of the progressionist party into one of the finest strongholds of Social-Democracy. This struggle is by no means over even today (as might seem to those who learn the history of the German movement from Prokopovich, and its philosophy from Struve). Even now the German working class is, so to speak, split up among a number of ideologies. A section of the workers is organised in Catholic and monarchist trade unions; another section is organised in the Hirsch-Duncker[33] unions, founded by the bourgeois worshippers of English trade-unionism; the third is organised in Social-Democratic trade unions. The last-named group is immeasurably more numerous than the rest, but the Social-Democratic ideology was able to achieve this superiority, and will be able to maintain it, only in an unswerving struggle against all other ideologies.


<But why, the reader will ask, does the spontaneous movement, the movement along the line of least resistance, lead to the domination of bourgeois ideology? For the simple reason that bourgeois ideology is far older in origin than socialist ideology, that it is more fully developed, and that it has at its disposal immeasurably more means of dissemination.[16] And the younger the socialist movement in any given country, the more vigorously it must struggle against all attempts to entrench non-socialist ideology, and the more resolutely the workers must be warned against the bad counsellors who shout against “overrating the conscious element”, etc. The authors of the Economist letter, in unison with Rabocheye Dyelo, inveigh against the intolerance that is characteristic of the infancy of the movement. To this we reply: Yes, our movement is indeed in its infancy, and in order that it may grow up faster, it must become imbued with intolerance against those who retard its growth by their subservience to spontaneity. Nothing is so ridiculous and harmful as pretending that we are “old hands” who have long ago experienced all the decisive stages of the struggle.


<Thirdly, the first issue of Rabochaya Mysl shows that the term “Economism” (which, of course, we do not propose to abandon, since, in one way or another, this designation has already established itself) does not adequately convey the real character of the new trend. Rabochaya Mysl does not altogether repudiate the political struggle; the rules for a workers’ mutual benefit fund published in its first issue contain a reference to combating the government. Rabochaya Mysl believes, however, that “politics always obediently follows economics” (Rabocheye Dyelo varies this thesis when it asserts in its programme that “in Russia more than in any other country, the economic struggle is inseparable from the political struggle”). If by politics is meant Social-Democratic politics, then the theses of Rabochaya Mysl and Rabocheye Dyelo are utterly incorrect. The economic struggle of the workers is very often connected (although not inseparably) with bourgeois politics, clerical politics, etc., as we have seen. Rabocheye Dyelo’s theses are correct, if by politics is meant trade union politics, viz., the common striving of all workers to secure from the government measures for alleviating the distress to which their condition gives rise, but which do not abolish that condition, i.e., which do not remove the subjection of labour to capital. That striving indeed is common to the English trade-unionists, who are hostile to socialism, to the Catholic workers, to the “Zubatov” workers, etc. There is politics and politics. Thus, we see that Rabochaya Mysl does not so much deny the political struggle, as it bows to its spontaneity, to its unconsciousness. While fully recognising the political struggle (better: the political desires and demands of the workers), which arises spontaneously from the working-class movement itself, it absolutely refuses independently to work out a specifically Social-Democratic politics corresponding to the general tasks of socialism and to present-day conditions in Russia.


[…]

<Footnotes:


<[15] This does not mean, of course, that the workers have no part in creating such an ideology. They take part, however, not as workers, but as socialist theoreticians, as Proudhons and Weitlings; in other words, they take part only when they are able, and to the extent that they are able, more or less, to acquire the knowledge of their age and develop that knowledge. But in order that working men may succeed in this more often, every effort must be made to raise the level of the consciousness of the workers in general; it is necessary that the workers do not confine themselves to the artificially restricted limits of “literature for workers” but that they learn to an increasing degree to master general literature. It would be even truer to say “are not confined”, instead of “do not confine themselves”, because the workers themselves wish to read and do read all that is written for the intelligentsia, and only a few (bad) intellectuals believe that it is enough “for workers” to be told a few things about factory conditions and to have repeated to them over and over again what has long been known. —Lenin


<[16] It is often said that the working class spontaneously gravitates towards socialism. This is perfectly true in the sense that socialist theory reveals the causes of the misery of the working class more profoundly and more correctly than any other theory, and for that reason the workers are able to assimilate it so easily, provided, however, this theory does not itself yield to spontaneity, provided it subordinates spontaneity to itself. Usually this is taken for granted, but it is precisely this which Rabocheye Dyelo forgets or distorts. The working class spontaneously gravitates towards socialism; nevertheless, most widespread (and continuously and diversely revived) bourgeois ideology spontaneously imposes itself upon the working class to a still greater degree. —Lenin


<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, What Is To Be Done?, BURNING QUESTIONS of our MOVEMENT, II The Spontaneity of the Masses and the Consciousness of the Social-Democrats


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htm

cause they never did any fucking work. they were all telemarketers and gladhanders, they never stood on a shovel or swung a pick in their lives, they probably didn't even know how much a pack of cigarettes cost at the drugstore.

>>2921216
If you believe in elite rule then you're not a leftist are you.

>>2921515
This has to be a bot, this post has literally nothing to do with what I said

>>2922926
I don’t believe in human capacity to rule themselves at all. We need God or aliens or mollusks, no one is qualified.

File: 1790698921790-6.png (51.4 KB, 1280x853, wcfn0au632421.png)

>>2922926
>>2922931
Communism needs hereditary rule to be viable. A 'democratic' communism simply doesn't make sense.

>>2922931
>I don’t believe in human capacity to rule themselves at all
I think thats idealism, some humans do have a better talent to rule than others, but its always a minority (like it happens with all talents)
thats why I also think any dictatorship of the proletariat will always be at the end a dictatorship of the party, at least for a while, and thats a good and a bad thing
>We need God or aliens or mollusks, no one is qualified.
maybe you and I do, some other humans are rulling just fine, is just a regular job for them

>>2922944
Correct.

>>2922931
Based. Based. Based.
Based. Based. Based.
Based. Based. Based.

Based.

I like how you think leftychud.

>unironic monarchists
See, people give me shit in /dprk/ for saying they're monarchists and here they are just outright calling for it. What even is this. Go back to /pol/ you fucking trogs. Next thing you know we'll have unironic Yarvin quoters in here.

>>2922944
>>2922976
Isn't Communism the abolition of the state?
A hereditary monarchy is a type of state.

>>2922983
Not a bordigafag leftcom. A state will be necessary because a state is unavoidable. Watch they tell you communism won't have money (labor credits) or classes (specialists).

>>2922980
The Enlightenment was a mistake. In order to achieve Communism we need to first return to feudalism. All Communist states were born from feudal states. Communist revolutions in liberal bourgeois states have always failed. We should repeat what works by flipping all countries back to feudalism first.

>>2922980
Democracy is a dangerous, unstable system that tends to degenerate into a government ran by the most convincing storyteller, ruling over a cattle of idiots.

File: 1790703111776-7-0.png (132.18 KB, 1800x249, AdvancedFeudalism.png)

File: 1790703111776-0-1.jpg (294.42 KB, 2329x976, too hard to swallow.jpg)

File: 1790703111776-1-2.jpg (104.68 KB, 1324x1027, Dats my leftychud.jpg)

>>2922987
Based. I love how my ideas are spreading. Soon I will be the 7th head of communism after Gonzalo.

File: 1790703243846-4-0.jpg (460.19 KB, 2390x990, Feudalism.jpg)

File: 1790703243846-7-1.png (237.92 KB, 2160x1296, GDR KAISERREICH.png)

>>2922991
>feudalism

>>2922986
So Communism fails to abolish class society?

File: 1790703977406-9.png (460.06 KB, 717x1369, ClipboardImage.png)

>>2922980
You hate monarchy yet you live under the thumb of a monarchy of law firms.

>>2922987
Yeah because capitalism wasn't as bad as feudalism and therefore found ways to placate the masses from overthrowing it. But there's no guarantee whatsoever that returning to feudalism will necessarily lead to communism any more than there was a guarantee that progressing to capitalism from feudalism would, as Marx insisted. You're both wrong (hell, monarchies still exist now). And how convenient that the first step in your grand communist plan is to turn some lucky guy into a king and worry about the communism bit later, almost like this is just a gambit for power and has absolutely nothing to do with communism at all.

>>2923002
>capitalism wasn't as bad as feudalism
Why not? Wage slavery seems more brutal than being a serf.

>>2923007
you dont get it, its progressive because now you can live to work until you are 80 in class society instead of dying at 40, trust the plan

>>2923007
It's really not. Serfs have literally no social mobility whatsoever. You were born a serf you died a serf, you were locked into being a agricultural slave for life, that was it, your entire existence. You couldn't even tell yourself you were contributing to the progress of society like a wagie in a factory can, that what the factory produces is progressive somehow, because serfdom gave the aristocracy no incentive to improve anything. You fed them and in exchange they didn't fucking kill you, that was the deal.

>>2923014
>describes Stalinism
And I am supposed to hate this?

>>2923014
Do you really think capitalists have "improved" the world?

>>2923017
>admits Stalinism is feudal tyranny
<still supports it anyway
Hopeless. You people are hopeless. You're not socialists, you never were. You're larping.

>>2923019
nta but its a common belief among marxists, kind of explains why communist parties always find themselves reproducing capitalism

>>2923026
I accept your defeat. Now pay tribute to me, vassal.

>>2923019
Materially, yes, that's undeniable. The problem we have now is that their rent-seeking behaviour is genuinely out of control; they always try to rent-seek, but only since the 80s has financialisation caused rent-seeking to be the dominant business strategy, and the material innovation and improvement we previously saw has tapered off (all they have left is their massive AI circlejerk). It was inevitable it would get to this point, it just took time, and in the meantime they were forced to actually provide something to society. Once their wealth concentrated sufficiently, however - and that concentration was inevitable - they no longer need to do so, shifting instead to charging rent off of what already exists.

It is in the nature of capitalists to attempt to resurrect feudalism but with themselves as the aristocrats, entitled to their position due to pre-existing wealth rather than ancestry.

>>2923031
I'd rather die.

>>2923014
>You were born a serf you died a serf
can you imagine? good thing that doesnt happen anymore at all haha

>>2923034
Capitalism naturally regresses back into feudalism; it is merely a mechanism by which to produce a new aristocracy. The danger now is that the technological progress they wrought in the process might enable them to hold onto power almost inviolably compared to the old aristocrats.

We need Communist Feudalism, not Capitalist Feudalism.

>>2923036
>Capitalism naturally regresses back into feudalism
oh so when capitalism starts getting ugly then its not real capitalism, its hecking feudalism again that came back?
listen man I like the fact that capitalism moves stuff faster than feudalism and all that but you need to cool it down with the apologetics for this global concentration camp the bourgeosie has created

>>2923039
These are mutually incompatible categories. If your society is based on a rigidly enforced caste system it's not fucking communism.

>>2923042
What the fuck are you talking about? Those are two separate points. Capitalism DID, and depending on the country CAN still improve the material wellbeing of a society, but it is doomed by its very nature to create wealth concentration and regress into feudalism. It has a honeymoon period. I'm not defending shit, the regression is baked in, that's my entire point. The whole project of capitalism, from the fucking beginning, was a gambit to enable the old merchant class to usurp the power of the hereditary aristocrats; it was never about actually improving anything, that's just a side affect in some circumstances, the point was for one group of oligarchs to replace another.

>>2923043
If you believe in fairy tales of equality and treats, you are not a Communist. You are a liberal.

>>2923062
>fairy tales of equality and treats
I absolutely refuse to let you redefine communism to mean austere aristocracy, this is fucking nonsense. I absolutely refuse to use that definition, I'm not debating this.

>>2923051
>the regression is baked in
then the historical progress simply translates into being a serf that lives longer than the one of the past under a state that is harder to abolish, I fail to see how this is an improvement
>and depending on the country CAN still improve the material wellbeing of a society
I dont think making people serfs that live longer improves their material wellbeing, sorry, if this makes me an idealist, so be it

>>2923072
Your existence is finite and the technological progress of the past two centuries has improved living conditions in much of the world. While yes, you are still a wage slave, your existence is vastly more comfortable than that of a medieval serf.

>>2923067
>ruthless criticism of all that exists
>except for leftcom fairy tales
I shall double your annual tribute, vassal. You have blasphemed against Communism and you shall pay for your weak insolence. Who are you to refuse to debate Communism?

>>2923074
Treatler. Your gibs and treats set you back hundreds of years. Pacified masses cannot build Communism. Communism demands sacrifice, not treats.

>>2923075
To be clear, I'm not a communist beyond the local level (I don't think humans are psychologically capable of it), but the entire POINT of socialism is SUPPOSED to be to improve the material conditions of the masses. THE TREATS ARE THE POINT. Obviously, necessities come first, but that's basic shit. If you REFUSE to supply treats on top of that, only the most desperate, for whom the lack of a guarantee of the basics is an imminent threat, will support you. It also locks you into permanent stagnation, since you've pre-emptively refused to iterate or improve on what you're doing because it's "treats".

>>2923074
>your existence is vastly more comfortable than that of a medieval serf.
so? if its comfort what we are talking about lets just get opium, you dont need capitalism for that, but we were talking about improving the world
this tendency marxists have of being too fast to declare "serfdom but more comfy and shiny" as progress makes them all smell like social-democrats to me

>>2923081
It's just an objective fact. It's still an exploitative system, it's just not as awful as past ones (yet). That doesn't mean we should settle for it, that's the realm of the conservative and bootlicker ('oh thank you for the treats sir what would we do without you sir' etc). If you don't have higher standards, improvement won't happen at all; the end goal must always be to empower the masses rather than yet another flavour of oligarch.

>>2923083
>it's just not as awful as past ones (yet)
capitalism is literally the most destructive of them all, it does all the horrible things of the past ones but more efficiently and faster, no other mode of production was a threat to the conditions of life itself as capitalism is, try to see two steps beyond the progress of being able to order pizza from your phone
>the end goal must always be to empower the masses rather than yet another flavour of oligarch.
at least we can agree on that I guess
>>2923077
>I'm not a communist beyond the local level
capitalism is a global thing and the movement that abolishes it can only also be global, if you are the same anon I was replying to now I understand why you sound so social-democratic to me

>>2923091
That may be so but it will not happen any time soon, as anything close to a global movement (which, to be clear, has never existed before, we don't even have a frame of reference for how to create one) would require unprecedented socio-cultural realignment.

>>2920987
Indeed.

What bothers me most is how some Marxists hide their authoritarian tendencies under these pseudo philosophical rubbish. That first we need to develop to this X random degree so that then we can do this X random thing. All while citing long gone thinkers like gospel, some who are dishonest like Lenin.

I find the drivel dishonest in itself and not worth engaging with.

>>2923104
A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. This summary mode of procedure is being abused to such an extent that it has become necessary to look into the matter somewhat more closely.

Authority, in the sense in which the word is used here, means: the imposition of the will of another upon ours; on the other hand, authority presupposes subordination. Now, since these two words sound bad, and the relationship which they represent is disagreeable to the subordinated party, the question is to ascertain whether there is any way of dispensing with it, whether — given the conditions of present-day society — we could not create another social system, in which this authority would be given no scope any longer, and would consequently have to disappear.

On examining the economic, industrial and agricultural conditions which form the basis of present-day bourgeois society, we find that they tend more and more to replace isolated action by combined action of individuals. Modern industry, with its big factories and mills, where hundreds of workers supervise complicated machines driven by steam, has superseded the small workshops of the separate producers; the carriages and wagons of the highways have become substituted by railway trains, just as the small schooners and sailing feluccas have been by steam-boats. Even agriculture falls increasingly under the dominion of the machine and of steam, which slowly but relentlessly put in the place of the small proprietors big capitalists, who with the aid of hired workers cultivate vast stretches of land.

Everywhere combined action, the complication of processes dependent upon each other, displaces independent action by individuals. But whoever mentions combined action speaks of organisation; now, is it possible to have organisation without authority?

Supposing a social revolution dethroned the capitalists, who now exercise their authority over the production and circulation of wealth. Supposing, to adopt entirely the point of view of the anti-authoritarians, that the land and the instruments of labour had become the collective property of the workers who use them. Will authority have disappeared, or will it only have changed its form? Let us see.

Let us take by way of example a cotton spinning mill. The cotton must pass through at least six successive operations before it is reduced to the state of thread, and these operations take place for the most part in different rooms. Furthermore, keeping the machines going requires an engineer to look after the steam engine, mechanics to make the current repairs, and many other labourers whose business it is to transfer the products from one room to another, and so forth. All these workers, men, women and children, are obliged to begin and finish their work at the hours fixed by the authority of the steam, which cares nothing for individual autonomy. The workers must, therefore, first come to an understanding on the hours of work; and these hours, once they are fixed, must be observed by all, without any exception. Thereafter particular questions arise in each room and at every moment concerning the mode of production, distribution of material, etc., which must be settled by decision of a delegate placed at the head of each branch of labour or, if possible, by a majority vote, the will of the single individual will always have to subordinate itself, which means that questions are settled in an authoritarian way. The automatic machinery of the big factory is much more despotic than the small capitalists who employ workers ever have been. At least with regard to the hours of work one may write upon the portals of these factories: Lasciate ogni autonomia, voi che entrate! [Leave, ye that enter in, all autonomy behind!]

If man, by dint of his knowledge and inventive genius, has subdued the forces of nature, the latter avenge themselves upon him by subjecting him, in so far as he employs them, to a veritable despotism independent of all social organisation. Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power loom in order to return to the spinning wheel.

Let us take another example — the railway. Here too the co-operation of an infinite number of individuals is absolutely necessary, and this co-operation must be practised during precisely fixed hours so that no accidents may happen. Here, too, the first condition of the job is a dominant will that settles all subordinate questions, whether this will is represented by a single delegate or a committee charged with the execution of the resolutions of the majority of persona interested. In either case there is a very pronounced authority. Moreover, what would happen to the first train dispatched if the authority of the railway employees over the Hon. passengers were abolished?

But the necessity of authority, and of imperious authority at that, will nowhere be found more evident than on board a ship on the high seas. There, in time of danger, the lives of all depend on the instantaneous and absolute obedience of all to the will of one.

When I submitted arguments like these to the most rabid anti-authoritarians, the only answer they were able to give me was the following: Yes, that's true, but there it is not the case of authority which we confer on our delegates, but of a commission entrusted! These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world.

We have thus seen that, on the one hand, a certain authority, no matter how delegated, and, on the other hand, a certain subordination, are things which, independently of all social organisation, are imposed upon us together with the material conditions under which we produce and make products circulate.

We have seen, besides, that the material conditions of production and circulation inevitably develop with large-scale industry and large-scale agriculture, and increasingly tend to enlarge the scope of this authority. Hence it is absurd to speak of the principle of authority as being absolutely evil, and of the principle of autonomy as being absolutely good. Authority and autonomy are relative things whose spheres vary with the various phases of the development of society. If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other; but they are blind to all facts that make the thing necessary and they passionately fight against the word.

Why do the anti-authoritarians not confine themselves to crying out against political authority, the state? All Socialists are agreed that the political state, and with it political authority, will disappear as a result of the coming social revolution, that is, that public functions will lose their political character and will be transformed into the simple administrative functions of watching over the true interests of society. But the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?

Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.

>>2923095
thats fine, but I dont understand why you were you going so hard at stalinoids before tho, if you believe in socialism in one location and that being a serf is progress as long as life expectancy is extended, so I think you guys see eye to eye on most things

>>2923107
The same retard who said the state would wither away.

Read On Authority by Bakunin

>>2923109
On Authority is by Engels and it's the piece you just pretended to read. What is Authority? is by Bakunin and and relies heavily on liberal ideology to justify his position.

>>2923109
oh wait you're trolling. you got me

>>2923111
Mix up the names. The libertarian tradition is right. Bakunin was right

>>2923108
>if you believe in socialism in one location
I don't, per se, I'm just not delusional about the extent to which it can actually be exported on any short timescale. A socialist state has to prioritise itself first and foremost because it cannot necessarily free anyone else, and under most cultural conditions, attempting to do so by any kind of force will entrench reactionary forces due to a basic threat response. It's a long term socio-cultural problem.

Stalin didn't improve shit in any way that couldn't have been done without mass executions and starvation. It wasn't necessary to industrialise the Soviet Union via the manner he chose, it's a post-hoc justification. He operated the way he did because he was a megalomaniac who was paranoid about anyone or anything that might threaten him in any way. Stalinists are a problem because the excuse totalitarian control as a necessity, which is a lie; they propagate it either because of dreams they could become a dictator themselves or because they are bootlickers who need to believe a paternal figure can and should solve all their problems, meaning they are fundamentally rightist in mindset.

>>2923116
He wasn't but you'll realize that when you finally grasp the difference between liberalism and dialectical materialism

>>2923119
“Dialectics”, a word only pseudo intellectuals who pretend to be deep use. Just use a normal word like analysis, oh wait you can’t, because if you do the farce comes off.

“Dialectical materialism” is a scam

>>2923121
ok retard

>>2923118
>A socialist state has to prioritise itself first and foremost
but I thought your goal was to empower the masses? Now you are saying the state itself is priority, crazy how fast that went (this is what giving up on internationalism does to a mf…)
>I'm just not delusional about the extent to which it can actually be exported on any short timescale
so you will diplomacymaxx and trademaxx with the international bourgeoisie, and a few decades later your socialist state will reform itself into a regular liberal one
>Stalin didn't improve shit
he took a feudal country and made it shinier and faster, thats what you tried to tell me was super progressive two seconds ago

>>2923123
Is this bad faith? You're intentionally not reading the rest of the sentence. I'm not responding to the Stalin point, read the line again. That's not what I said.

If the state represents the masses, then it empowers the masses of that country. The key, and it is the most critical component of such a project, is designing a state that actually does that.

Look, if you want to try the Trotsky route go ahead but it won't end well. People don't react well to being attacked. It takes genuine, deeply internalised psychological operations to turn another country's population into supporting you invading them, it's extremely rare.

>>2923127
>Is this bad faith?
No
>Stalin didn't improve shit in any way that couldn't have been done without mass executions and starvation. It wasn't necessary to industrialise the Soviet Union via the manner he chose, it's a post-hoc justification.
Do you think the historically progressive american empire could have become what it is without manifest destiny and slavery? Do you think the brutality present in all state building processes are just a fluke?
>If the state represents the masses, then it empowers the masses of that country.
this is just nationalism, nothing to do with communism
>The key, and it is the most critical component of such a project, is designing a state that actually does that.
sure, just one more nation-state, this one will be the one to liberate us, this has never been tried before!

>>2922929
'm not a bot; I'm guarding against opportunists who romanticize spontaneity or decentralization, both of which go against the theory of scientific socialism.

>>2923131
>>2923127
>>2923123
>>2923118
>>2923108
>>2923108
I am noticing another type of opportunism that needs my intervention as both individuals talking here go against scientific socialism.

The Soviet Union abolished private property, unemployment and all features of capitalism for the planning of the economy. The state capitalism, small commodity production and private capitalism of the NEP by peasants in the rural sector were eventually abolished by Stalin who made the rest of the economy organized by a socialist economy according to an economic plan with state farms and agricultural cooperatives that do not compete for profit.

The Soviet Union lacked the elements of capitalism because employment was guaranteed, all industry was public because it was nationalized, and all production followed a collective plan rather than selling for profit in the market. There was no financial speculation or methods of accumulating capital. Cooperatives had an exclusive relationship with the state, not competing with each other, with workers receiving the surplus after deductions from the total according to their labor and needs.

I think you're mistaken in thinking that socialism means workers receiving the profits from the sale of everything produced in a society of cooperatives that compete with each other. Therefore, I'll leave you with some quotes to help you understand what socialism is, according to Marx:

<Let us take, first of all, the words "proceeds of labor" in the sense of the product of labor; then the co-operative proceeds of labor are the total social product.


<From this must now be deducted: First, cover for replacement of the means of production used up. Second, additional portion for expansion of production. Third, reserve or insurance funds to provide against accidents, dislocations caused by natural calamities, etc.


<These deductions from the "undiminished" proceeds of labor are an economic necessity, and their magnitude is to be determined according to available means and forces, and partly by computation of probabilities, but they are in no way calculable by equity.


<There remains the other part of the total product, intended to serve as means of consumption.


<Before this is divided among the individuals, there has to be deducted again, from it: First, the general costs of administration not belonging to production. This part will, from the outset, be very considerably restricted in comparison with present-day society, and it diminishes in proportion as the new society develops. Second, that which is intended for the common satisfaction of needs, such as schools, health services, etc. From the outset, this part grows considerably in comparison with present-day society, and it grows in proportion as the new society develops. Third, funds for those unable to work, etc., in short, for what is included under so-called official poor relief today.


<Only now do we come to the "distribution" which the program, under Lassallean influence, alone has in view in its narrow fashion – namely, to that part of the means of consumption which is divided among the individual producers of the co-operative society.


<The "undiminished" proceeds of labor have already unnoticeably become converted into the "diminished" proceeds, although what the producer is deprived of in his capacity as a private individual benefits him directly or indirectly in his capacity as a member of society.


<Just as the phrase of the "undiminished" proceeds of labor has disappeared, so now does the phrase of the "proceeds of labor" disappear altogether.


<Within the co-operative society based on common ownership of the means of production, the producers do not exchange their products; just as little does the labor employed on the products appear here as the value of these products, as a material quality possessed by them, since now, in contrast to capitalist society, individual labor no longer exists in an indirect fashion but directly as a component part of total labor. The phrase "proceeds of labor", objectionable also today on account of its ambiguity, thus loses all meaning.


<What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges. Accordingly, the individual producer receives back from society – after the deductions have been made – exactly what he gives to it. What he has given to it is his individual quantum of labor. For example, the social working day consists of the sum of the individual hours of work; the individual labor time of the individual producer is the part of the social working day contributed by him, his share in it. He receives a certificate from society that he has furnished such-and-such an amount of labor (after deducting his labor for the common funds); and with this certificate, he draws from the social stock of means of consumption as much as the same amount of labor cost. The same amount of labor which he has given to society in one form, he receives back in another.


<Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme (1875)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

In the question about commodity production, I suggest this quote to answer several questions about money:

<But in the trading between the commune and its members the money is not money at all, it does not function in any way as money. It serves as a mere labour certificate; to use Marx's phrase, it is “merely evidence of the part taken by the individual in the common labour, and of his right to a certain portion of the common produce destined for consumption”, and in carrying out this function, it is “no more ‘money’ than a ticket for the theatre”. It can therefore be replaced by any other token, just as Weitling replaces it by a “ledger”, in which the labour-hours worked are entered on one side and means of subsistence taken as compensation on the other. [121] In a word, in the trading of the economic commune with its members it functions merely as Owen’s “labour money”, that “phantom” which Herr Dühring looks down upon so disdainfully, but nevertheless is himself compelled to introduce into his economics of the future. Whether the token which certifies the measure of fulfilment of the “obligation to produce”, and thus of the earned “right to consume” {320} is a scrap of paper, a counter or a gold coin is absolutely of no consequence for this purpose.


[…]

<Thus neither in exchange between the economic commune and its members nor in exchange between the different communes can gold, which is “money by nature”, get to realise this its nature.


<Anti-Dühring by Frederick Engels, 1877, Part III: Socialism, IV. Distribution


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/ch26.htm

This follows what Marx and Engels wrote:

<Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat. The main measures, emerging as the necessary result of existing relations, are the following:


<(i) Limitation of private property through progressive taxation, heavy inheritance taxes, abolition of inheritance through collateral lines (brothers, nephews, etc.) forced loans, etc.


<(ii) Gradual expropriation of landowners, industrialists, railroad magnates and shipowners, partly through competition by state industry, partly directly through compensation in the form of bonds.


<(iii) Confiscation of the possessions of all emigrants and rebels against the majority of the people.


<(iv) Organization of labor or employment of proletarians on publicly owned land, in factories and workshops, with competition among the workers being abolished and with the factory owners, in so far as they still exist, being obliged to pay the same high wages as those paid by the state.


<(v) An equal obligation on all members of society to work until such time as private property has been completely abolished. Formation of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.


<(vi) Centralization of money and credit in the hands of the state through a national bank with state capital, and the suppression of all private banks and bankers.


<(vii) Increase in the number of national factories, workshops, railroads, ships; bringing new lands into cultivation and improvement of land already under cultivation – all in proportion to the growth of the capital and labor force at the disposal of the nation.


<(viii) Education of all children, from the moment they can leave their mother’s care, in national establishments at national cost. Education and production together.


<(ix) Construction, on public lands, of great palaces as communal dwellings for associated groups of citizens engaged in both industry and agriculture and combining in their way of life the advantages of urban and rural conditions while avoiding the one-sidedness and drawbacks of each.


<(x) Destruction of all unhealthy and jerry-built dwellings in urban districts.


<(xi) Equal inheritance rights for children born in and out of wedlock.


<(xii) Concentration of all means of transportation in the hands of the nation.


<It is impossible, of course, to carry out all these measures at once. But one will always bring others in its wake. Once the first radical attack on private property has been launched, the proletariat will find itself forced to go ever further, to concentrate increasingly in the hands of the state all capital, all agriculture, all transport, all trade. All the foregoing measures are directed to this end; and they will become practicable and feasible, capable of producing their centralizing effects to precisely the degree that the proletariat, through its labor, multiplies the country’s productive forces.


<Finally, when all capital, all production, all exchange have been brought together in the hands of the nation, private property will disappear of its own accord, money will become superfluous, and production will so expand and man so change that society will be able to slough off whatever of its old economic habits may remain.


<Frederick Engels, 1847, The Principles of Communism


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/11/prin-com.htm

>>2923131
Look, I sympathise with the stateless perspective but the fact is it's just not workable on a large scale, which means it can't defend itself from, well, states. You need a state; the key is to make the political class in charge of it subject to the people's veto; they only hold their positions if the public allows it.
>Do you think the historically progressive american empire could have become what it is without manifest destiny and slavery?
No, but that isn't the point. The point is that you don't need to do what Stalin did to industrialise a country, so there is no reason beyond his own ego to do it. The Soviet Union also would not have been what it was had the Russian Empire not been established first, that part is unavoidable. You want the Soviet Union, you have to have the Russian Empire. But you don't have to shoot people for looking at you funny to industrialise, that's not just optional, it's utterly unrelated.

>>2922987
>>2922991
>>2922993
Now I will give the answer to this kind of opportunistic fantasizing of feudalism, which is impossible to return from capitalism because of technology and because any aristocracy or clergy have already been integrated as lackey agents of financialized imperialist capitalism:

<1. Reactionary Socialism


<A. Feudal Socialism

[…]
<In order to arouse sympathy, the aristocracy was obliged to lose sight, apparently, of its own interests, and to formulate their indictment against the bourgeoisie in the interest of the exploited working class alone. Thus, the aristocracy took their revenge by singing lampoons on their new masters and whispering in his ears sinister prophesies of coming catastrophe.

<In this way arose feudal Socialism: half lamentation, half lampoon; half an echo of the past, half menace of the future; at times, by its bitter, witty and incisive criticism, striking the bourgeoisie to the very heart’s core; but always ludicrous in its effect, through total incapacity to comprehend the march of modern history.


<The aristocracy, in order to rally the people to them, waved the proletarian alms-bag in front for a banner. But the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter.

[…]
<In pointing out that their mode of exploitation was different to that of the bourgeoisie, the feudalists forget that they exploited under circumstances and conditions that were quite different and that are now antiquated. In showing that, under their rule, the modern proletariat never existed, they forget that the modern bourgeoisie is the necessary offspring of their own form of society.

<For the rest, so little do they conceal the reactionary character of their criticism that their chief accusation against the bourgeois amounts to this, that under the bourgeois régime a class is being developed which is destined to cut up root and branch the old order of society.


<What they upbraid the bourgeoisie with is not so much that it creates a proletariat as that it creates a revolutionary proletariat.


<In political practice, therefore, they join in all coercive measures against the working class; and in ordinary life, despite their high-falutin phrases, they stoop to pick up the golden apples dropped from the tree of industry, and to barter truth, love, and honour, for traffic in wool, beetroot-sugar, and potato spirits.


<Karl Marx & Frederick Engels, 1848, Chapter III. Socialist and Communist Literature


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch03.htm

Furthermore, feudalism values ​​stability for the ruling classes within that class-based society, whereas capitalism pursues only the interests of the bourgeois class to intensify capital accumulation; it thus values ​​instability in the quest to amass more capital, where competition leads to consolidation—and consequently to cartelization, oligopolization, and monopolization. Today, fictitious capital—such as unproductive financial capital—has come to dominate, but this is the logical outcome of capitalism. In any case, state capitalism is superior to private capitalism and is also easier to socialize.

The issue here, I would argue, is the need to defend state capitalism against apologists for private capitalism or small-scale commodity production, as these are obstacles to the socialization of the economy and to the proletariat achieving political supremacy. Of course, a socialist economy is superior to private capitalism, state capitalism, and small-scale commodity production; if the means of production are available to be seized, then state capitalism would not be necessary, because non-profit national economic planning could easily be initiated based on the needs and labor of the workers.

>>2923185
>easiest to socialize
You confused what can be done with what should be done. Communism will evolve when it undos proletarianization and grants the proles their own property and ties it to the family bloodline so you can't sell your own inheritance. This will be complimented by a central planning mechanism having its own currency and state property. Labor is to be conscripted first at a high school level then at a professional level in times of crisis. Labor credits for long term state employees can be exchanged for some kind of commodity money infused or traded with the private economy. This way you have partial socialization of property with non-rivalrous proprietarianism to supplant it. It is depressing that so many leftychuds push oversocialization as the solution to capitalism when it is one of its biggest negative side effects.

>>2923180
You are mistaken regarding the nature of industrialization; as imperialist capitalism expands beyond its domestic market, it seeks to create dependency in countries lacking economic sovereignty and advanced technological control. It often co-opts reactionary classes—such as the aristocracy and the clergy—to collaborate in an industrial sector dependent on foreign capitalists and financial speculators, thereby intensifying the oppression and exploitation of workers without granting bourgeois rights or achieving genuine industrialization. The result is an indebted neocolony that lacks even the bourgeois rights associated with a bourgeois revolution.

This is the context in which the bourgeoisie can be seen becoming increasingly conservative and reactionary—a trend evident even in the time of Marx and Engels—as the class struggle intensified and the proletariat grew into a threat to the bourgeoisie. Lenin recognized that the proletariat would have to carry out a revolution establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat and rapidly achieve economic sovereignty—completing the bourgeois revolution in order to proceed directly to a proletarian revolution. He followed Engels’s prescription for an alliance between the proletariat and the peasantry, rather than waiting for capitalism to destroy the peasantry. This dictatorship of the proletariat could create the necessary conditions to launch a socialist planned economy as quickly as possible, accelerating industrialization to achieve a fully socialist economy; therefore, Stalin was not wrong to industrialize the country or to use terror against counter-revolutionaries or class-conciliatory opportunists.

Marx and Engels were not acting out of spite by insisting on a global revolution; they did not oppose a revolution occurring within a single country. Had they held such a view, they would have opposed the Paris Commune.

I'll leave a quote proving my point:

<It is altogether self-evident that, to be able to fight at all, the working class must organize itself at home as a class and that its own country is the immediate arena of its struggle – insofar as its class struggle is national, not in substance, but, as the Communist Manifesto says, "in form". But the "framework of the present-day national state", for instance, the German Empire, is itself, in its turn, economically "within the framework" of the world market, politically "within the framework" of the system of states.


<Karl Marx, 1875, Critique of the Gotha Programme, Chapter I


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

Here Marx refers to this other quote:

<Though not in substance, yet in form, the struggle of the proletariat with the bourgeoisie is at first a national struggle. The proletariat of each country must, of course, first of all settle matters with its own bourgeoisie.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter I: Bourgeois and Proletarians


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm

You do not understand the obligation to install the revolutionary government of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

<While this utopian doctrinaire socialism, which subordinates the total movement to one of its stages, which puts in place of common social production the brainwork of individual pedants and, above all, in fantasy does away with the revolutionary struggle of the classes and its requirements by small conjurers' tricks or great sentimentality, while this doctrinaire socialism, which at bottom only idealizes present society, takes a picture of it without shadows, and wants to achieve its ideal athwart the realities of present society; while the proletariat surrenders this socialism to the petty bourgeoisie; while the struggle of the different socialist leaders among themselves sets forth each of the so-called systems as a pretentious adherence to one of the transit points of the social revolution as against another – the proletariat rallies more and more around revolutionary socialism, around communism, for which the bourgeoisie has itself invented the name of Blanqui. This socialism is the declaration of the permanence of the revolution, the class dictatorship of the proletariat as the necessary transit point to the abolition of class distinctions generally, to the abolition of all the relations of production on which they rest, to the abolition of all the social relations that correspond to these relations of production, to the revolutionizing of all the ideas that result from these social relations.


<Karl Marx, The Class Struggles in France, (1848 to 1850)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch03.htm

You do not understand the obligation to install the revolutionary government of the dictatorship of the proletariat.

<It appears that the defeat of the Parisians was their own fault, but a fault which really arose from their too great honnêteté [decency]. The Central Committee and later the Commune gave the mischievous abortion Thiers time to centralise hostile forces, in the first place by their folly in trying not to start civil war–as if Thiers had not started it by his attempt at the forcible disarming of Paris, as if the National Assembly, which was only summoned to decide the question of war or peace with the Prussians, had not immediately declared war on the Republic! (2) In order that the appearance of having usurped power should not attach to them they lost precious moments–(they should immediately have advanced on Versailles after the defeat (Place Vendôme) of the reaction in Paris)–by the election of the Commune, the organisation of which, etc., cost yet more time.


<You must not believe a word of all the stuff you may see in the papers about the internal events in Paris. It is all lies and deception. Never has the vileness of bourgeois journalism displayed itself more brilliantly.


<Marx to Wilhelm Liebknecht In Leipzig, (London, April 6 1871)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/letters/71_04_06.htm

>>2923201
What I have written follows Lenin’s writings on the modes of production that existed during the NEP and the threat that private capitalism and small-commodity production represented by the prosperous peasant (kulak) posed as a threat to the supremacy of the proletarian class.

One thing you need to understand about the Russian Revolution is that the Bolsheviks had already carried out agrarian reform and expropriated Russian capitalists and aristocrats; the Tsarist aristocracy was already collaborating with the British imperialist capitalism developing in urban areas, and this collaboration was preventing even bourgeois rights from developing.

Now I will leave a quote about state capitalism in Lenin's time that many don't understand:

<But what does the word “transition” mean? Does it not mean, as applied to an economy, that the present system contains elements, particles, fragments of both capitalism and socialism? Everyone will admit that it does. But not all who admit this take the trouble to consider what elements actually constitute the various socio-economic structures that exist in Russia at the present time. And this is the crux of the question.


<Let us enumerate these elements:


<(1)patriarchal, i.e., to a considerable extent natural, peasant farming;


<(2)small commodity production (this includcs the majority of those peasants who sell their grain);


<(3)private capitalism;


<(4)state capitalism;


<(5)socialism.

[…]
<The question arises: What elements predominate? Clearly, in a small-peasant country, the petty-bourgeois element predominates and it must predominate, for the great majority—those working the land—are small commodity producers. The shell of state capitalism (grain monopoly, state-controlled entrepreneurs and traders, bourgeois co-operators) is pierced now in one place, now in another by profiteers, the chief object of profiteering being grain.

<It is in this field that the main struggle is being waged. Between what elements is this struggle being waged if we are to speak in terms of economic categories such as “state capitalism”? Between the fourth and fifth in the order in which I have just enumerated them? Of course not. It is not state capitalism that is at war with socialism, but the petty bourgeoisie plus private capitalism fighting together against state capitalism and socialism. The petty bourgeoisie oppose every kind of state interference, accounting and control, whether it be state-capitalist or state-socialist. This is an unquestionable fact of reality whose misunderstanding lies at the root of many economic mistakes. The profiteer, the commercial racketeer, the disrupter of monopoly—these are our principal “internal” enemies, the enemies of the economic measures of the Soviet power. A hundred and twenty-five years ago it might have been excusable for the French petty bourgeoisie, the most ardent and sincere revolutionaries, to try to crush the profiteer by executing a few of the “chosen” and by making thunderous declarations. Today, however, the purely French approach to the question assumed by some Left Socialist-Revolutionaries can arouse nothing but disgust and revulsion in every politically conscious revolutionary. We know perfectly well that the economic basis of profiteering is both the small proprietors, who are exceptionally widespread in Russia, and private capitalism, of which every petty bourgeois is an agent. We know that the million tentacles of this petty-bourgeois octopus now and again encircle various sections of the workers, that instead of state monopoly, profiteering forces its way into every pore of our social and economic organism.


<Those who fail to see this show by their blindness that they are slaves of petty-bourgeois prejudices….


<The petty bourgeoisie have money put away, the few thousands that they made during the war by “honest” and especially by dishonest means. They are the characteristic economic type, that is, the basis of profiteering and private capitalism. Money is a certificate entitling the possessor to receive social wealth; and a vast section of small proprietors, numbering millions, cling to this certificate and conceal it from the “state”. They do not believe in socialism or communism, and “mark time” until the proletarian storm blows over. Either we subordinate the petty bourgeoisie to our control and accounting (we can do this if we organise the poor, that is, the majority of the population or semi-proletarians, round the politically conscious proletarian vanguard), or they will overthrow our workers’ power as surely and as inevitably as the revolution was overthrown by the Napoleons and the Cavaignacs who sprang from this very soil of petty proprietorship. That is how the question stands. That is the only view we can take of the matter….


<Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, 1921, The Tax in Kind, (The Significance Of The New Policy And Its Conditions)


https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/apr/21.htm

I already gave you an answer on how lower-phase communism works in another post of mine:
>>2923169

>>2923220
I understand it. I just don't agree with it. I already outlined my position on this matter. There is no reason to quote-mine when the principle itself is wrong.
<monopoly-disruptor
Why is this a bad thing? I want options. Let the state compete with the disruptor in the market.
>commodity exchange
Yes. That is an unavoidable part of life. Try deleting that and you get no products made. Even then we have no successful no-commodity situations outside of open source software or other intangibles. Relying on automation is not a panacea because humans like teleology. I personally have revulsion to vibe coded cookie cutter sites.
>Stalin
Stalin had the artel system of private businesses that was expropriated by Khruschev. AES countries had different policies for private businesses so no one-shot practical solution exists outside of run of the mill bordigaslop.

>>2923205
Stop with the drivel and watch why the “State is Counterrevolutionary”:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvwoHdNGq9wVy-iR1oHJKoJY2lh6ypXKZ&si=UVvZAkkVzv4_H7oN

>>2923032
>capitalism was great until the 1980s!
The nonsense Marxoids actually believe.

>>2923180
>You need a state
yeah you need the dotp, not just another nation-state that peacefully coexists with capitalism until material reality forces you to reform yourself into another regular liberal state
you are just reinventing social-democracy, just call it that, not "local communism" or whatever, and stop using marxism to justify your plans to collaborate with the international bourgeoisie when you get in power
what marx liked the most about capitalism is that it created the possibility for proletarian internationalism, its tragic how despite all your apologism for it because it makes being a slave comfier you miss the best part of it

>>2923535
Material reality prevents you from going on an indefinite crusade against all capitalist states. At the bare minimum, you can't do anything about the ones with nuclear weapons, it's internal revolt or nothing unless you have a death wish.

>>2923230
>Why is this a bad thing? I want options. Let the state compete with the disruptor in the market.
The disruptor of a public-use monopoly can blackmail the rest of society—especially when attempting to end the government's monopoly on foreign trade; this poses a threat to the supremacy of the proletarian class. The goal of communists is to secure political supremacy for the proletariat and consolidate this new social order to socialize the economy; therefore, speculation on food is a counter-revolutionary threat.

>Yes. That is an unavoidable part of life. Try deleting that and you get no products made. Even then we have no successful no-commodity situations outside of open source software or other intangibles. Relying on automation is not a panacea because humans like teleology. I personally have revulsion to vibe coded cookie cutter sites.


>>2920562
Wrong. If there are no developed means of production for collective organization—due to a lack of technology and the isolation of the peasantry—then the correct course of action to socialize the economy is to prepare peasants for cooperative work using state capitalism, while utilizing state-owned enterprises to acquire the necessary technologies and knowledge as quickly as possible. This follows what Engels wrote and what I posted here:
>>2920562
>Stalin had the artel system of private businesses that was expropriated by Khruschev. AES countries had different policies for private businesses so no one-shot practical solution exists outside of run of the mill bordigaslop.
During the Stalin era, cooperatives did not compete in the market, maintaining exclusive relationships with the Soviet state; moreover, the exploitation of other workers' labor was prohibited. Losses and gains were equalized to prevent regional inequality, and both the land and the tractor stations were public property. Personal property followed the principles outlined by Marx:

<The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition of property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few.


<In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.


<We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man’s own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.


<Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.


<Or do you mean the modern bourgeois private property?


<But does wage-labour create any property for the labourer? Not a bit. It creates capital, i.e., that kind of property which exploits wage-labour, and which cannot increase except upon condition of begetting a new supply of wage-labour for fresh exploitation. Property, in its present form, is based on the antagonism of capital and wage labour. Let us examine both sides of this antagonism.


<To be a capitalist, is to have not only a purely personal, but a social status in production. Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion.


<Capital is therefore not only personal; it is a social power.


<When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character.

[…]
<And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

<By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.


<But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other “brave words” of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the Communistic abolition of buying and selling, of the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II: Proletarians and Communists


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Furthermore, Khrushchev was responsible for decentralizing cooperatives, driven by the fantasy of simulating competition—a move stemming from a lack of understanding of a socialist economy. In his final writings, Stalin had already considered the possibility of eventually transforming agricultural cooperatives into state farms; this was a response to those seeking ways to advance the construction of socialism and communism—specifically regarding how to address commodity production, however limited it was in the Soviet Union at the time.

File: 1790872632952-2-0.jpg (91.78 KB, 602x632, Attractors.jpg)

File: 1790872632952-3-1.webp (148.41 KB, 1917x1079, Minsky.webp)

File: 1790872632952-9-2.jpg (193.23 KB, 1821x1289, Come on now.jpg)

>>2923825
>Quote-mining
>Dogma-posting
Ngmi leftychud. I told you earlier I don't agree with certain parts of Marx and Lenin. I take Marx the Analyst over Marx the Futurist, because one is rooted in materialist analysis and the other is unfortunately, idealism. Lenin also in practical terms had to undo his earlier policies so taking what he said as infallible THIS MUST BE DONE EXACTLY THIS WAY!!!111! is bordiga-tier bullshit.
>>2923825
>The disruptor of a public-use monopoly can blackmail the rest of society
If a state monopoly is efficient, it cannot be blackmailed by a small competitor. If it's inefficient, the disruptor corrects for it by filling the market, forcing the state sector to optimize the plan. If you have a government store selling wares from a state enterprise, and there is a shortage or whatnot, it can fill the shelves with things produced by the cooperatives or other private businesses. If you block that, you get empty shelves. There is nothing to blackmail because the government is not ceding state property and the private enterprise is not taking over state property. These can co-exist because the essence of Communism is control over labor power.
>especially when attempting to end the government's monopoly on foreign trade
If the state controls trade policy, financial planning from trade balances, currency trades, tariffs, regulations etc. you don't need monopoly over foreign trade. You can limit foreign dependencies using interal regulatory mechanisms and border controls. The US does exactly this. The only reason they suffered deindustrialization is because the US elites were banking on Globalism so they didn't care. But they had absolutely all the levers necessary to prevent industrial flight even without resorting to socialism. Trading between socialist countries makes this even easier. Weird hill to die on but alright.

>Wrong. If there are no developed means of production for collective organization—due to a lack of technology and the isolation of the peasantry—then the correct course of action to socialize the economy is to prepare peasants for cooperative work using state capitalism, while utilizing state-owned enterprises to acquire the necessary technologies and knowledge as quickly as possible. This follows what Engels wrote and what I posted here:

<We, of course, are decidedly on the side of the small peasant; we shall do everything at all permissible to make his lot more bearable, to facilitate his transition to the co-operative should he decide to do so, and even to make it possible for him to remain on his small holding for a protracted length of time to think the matter over, should he still be unable to bring himself to this decision. We do this not only because we consider the small peasant living by his own labor as virtually belonging to us, but also in the direct interest of the Party. The greater the number of peasants whom we can save from being actually hurled down into the proletariat, whom we can win to our side while they are still peasants, the more quickly and easily the social transformation will be accomplished. It will serve us no reason to wait with this transformation until capitalist production has developed everywhere to its extreme consequences, until the last small craftsman and the last small peasant have fallen victim to capitalist large-scale production.
My argument earlier was how trying to up-ante capitalism destroying "property of petty artisan and of the small peasant" by short-circuiting that and just oversocializing everything IS the problem. You have to undo proletarianization not accelerate it like a freak using progress as a lame excuse. Not everything "efficient" is actually efficient. Imperfect perfection is better than perfect imperfection for example. Once development is accelerated, you will see more property among the proles, leading back to the pre-capitalist era. This is evident in socialist countries that did not resist proprietarian tendencies. So I am not against Engels' strategy, but I am against baked-in proletarianization under communism as a desirable end goal.

>During the Stalin era, cooperatives did not compete in the market, maintaining exclusive relationships with the Soviet state; moreover, the exploitation of other workers' labor was prohibited. Losses and gains were equalized to prevent regional inequality, and both the land and the tractor stations were public property.

>Furthermore, Khrushchev was responsible for decentralizing cooperatives, driven by the fantasy of simulating competition—a move stemming from a lack of understanding of a socialist economy. In his final writings, Stalin had already considered the possibility of eventually transforming agricultural cooperatives into state farms; this was a response to those seeking ways to advance the construction of socialism and communism—specifically regarding how to address commodity production, however limited it was in the Soviet Union at the time.
Yes they did. You are confusing Khrushchev with the Liberman reforms under Brezhnev. Those reforms were done because Khrushchev consolidated too much of everything under the purview of Gosplan and Gossnab. Artels sold things on markets and stores. You could do custom orders for clothes in stores and they would be routed to a private tailor, store getting the cut and you getting the product. This was done in the 1950s. You could also go to the tailor directly, the economy was different, but it was not just exclusive relationship with the state. Machine Tractor Stations were state property and not part of artels. Khanin said Stalin was thinking about further expanding commodity production. I guess we are dealing with Schrödinger's Stalin here.

<To be a capitalist, is to have not only a purely personal, but a social status in production. Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion.

<Capital is therefore not only personal; it is a social power.
<When, therefore, capital is converted into common property, into the property of all members of society, personal property is not thereby transformed into social property. It is only the social character of the property that is changed. It loses its class character.
<Let us now take wage-labour.
<The average price of wage-labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer. What, therefore, the wage-labourer appropriates by means of his labour, merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labour, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labour of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.
<In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In Communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.
<In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in Communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.
<And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.
<By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.
<But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other “brave words” of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the Communistic abolition of buying and selling, of the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.
You cannot disappear selling and buying, that's just idealism. Good luck legislating it away. Commodity production is unavoidable, the entire history of socialism is testament to this.
>In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality
>Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion.
How this contradiction was missed during proof-reading is beyond me.

>>2923741 You're correct on this point, but wrong on the others. A DOTP is necessary, and internationalism is also necessary. Socialism in One Country has been proven to be impossible. That being said, that does not mean that socialism in all countries is necessary for socialism to survive. All that is immediately necessary is an alliance of socialist workers' states militarily strong enough to protect themselves and gradually spread the revolution and ensure self-sufficiency. The United States alone couldn't maintain a DOTP and be socialist, but North and South America combined standing together as a continental socialist alliance could do it, seeing as together they would be resource-independent and militarily powerful.

>>2924321
>Ngmi leftychud. I told you earlier I don't agree with certain parts of Marx and Lenin. I take Marx the Analyst over Marx the Futurist, because one is rooted in materialist analysis and the other is unfortunately, idealism. Lenin also in practical terms had to undo his earlier policies so taking what he said as infallible THIS MUST BE DONE EXACTLY THIS WAY!!!111! is bordiga-tier bullshit.
You remain wrong. Lenin was not opposed to socializing the economy; therefore, he didn't abandon anything. What existed was the wartime policy known as "War Communism," which was necessary, but there was no reason to continue this policy in the absence of war, as it caused unnecessary conflict with the peasantry. Bear in mind that War Communism still involved private property.

Lenin's decision aligns with what Engels wrote in 1894 in *The Peasant Question in France and Germany*; thus, there is no disagreement between Lenin, Marx, and Engels. The use of state capitalism to prepare poor peasants for cooperative work eliminated the leverage and potential for extortion that prosperous peasants could use against poorer ones. By preparing peasants for collective labor, it became easier for the proletarian state to socialize the economy.

>If a state monopoly is efficient, it cannot be blackmailed by a small competitor. If it's inefficient, the disruptor corrects for it by filling the market, forcing the state sector to optimize the plan. If you have a government store selling wares from a state enterprise, and there is a shortage or whatnot, it can fill the shelves with things produced by the cooperatives or other private businesses. If you block that, you get empty shelves. There is nothing to blackmail because the government is not ceding state property and the private enterprise is not taking over state property. These can co-exist because the essence of Communism is control over labor power.

My argument is not based on efficiency, this follows the Communist Manifesto itself following the obligation to maintain the supremacy of the proletarian class because there is no class conciliation, this means that one must acquire economic sovereignty as quickly as possible and defend the interests of the proletarian class from the exploitation of capitalists who will do everything to prevent the formation of a native state industry in another country independent of imperialist capitalism.

The revolutionary measures in section 2 of the manifesto also follows this conclusion here:

<And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.


<By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.


<But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other “brave words” of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the Communistic abolition of buying and selling, of the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.


<You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.


<In one word, you reproach us with intending to do away with your property. Precisely so; that is just what we intend.

[…]
<The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total of productive forces as rapidly as possible.

<Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

[…]
<When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.

<In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.


<Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), Chapter II: Proletarians and Communists


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm

Furthermore, from what Lenin wrote in "The Monopoly of Foreign Trade" he can see that tariff systems fail during the age of imperialism because wealthy capitalist nations can use export bounties and financial maneuvers to bypass barriers and ruin domestic Russian industries, under the New Economic Policy, private traders and foreign capitalists sought to penetrate the Soviet market; the monopoly served as the essential bulwark against these capitalist restoration tendencies that are a threat to the supremacy of the proletarian class, rather than letting profiteers capture trade profits, a strict state monopoly combined with mixed companies mobilized resources to secure financial gains directly for the proletarian state and industrial development against what capitalists desire, this monopoly is necessary for the proletarian state to have economic independence. State-owned enterprises can be used to bankrupt any private companies competing against them by flooding the market with cheap products, regardless of profit; this facilitates the socialization of the economy.

Your argument about empty shelves is false; furthermore, I do not care how many sacrifices workers must make to achieve economic sovereignty and abolish private property, the anarchy of production, and social classes. The USSR managed to acquire the technology to socialize the economy even while under sanctions from imperialist capitalist nations and relying on grain-based trade; meanwhile, kulaks constantly engaged in price gouging and sabotaged poor peasants and their cooperatives—using debt to coerce them and attempting to incite a civil war between urban proletarians and rural peasants—in order to pave the way for foreign imperialist capitalist intervention that would restore private capitalism, with the kulaks themselves becoming the new capitalists. Private capitalism and small-scale commodity production are therefore threats that had to be—and were—eliminated through collectivization.

>My argument earlier was how trying to up-ante capitalism destroying "property of petty artisan and of the small peasant" by short-circuiting that and just oversocializing everything IS the problem. You have to undo proletarianization not accelerate it like a freak using progress as a lame excuse. Not everything "efficient" is actually efficient. Imperfect perfection is better than perfect imperfection for example. Once development is accelerated, you will see more property among the proles, leading back to the pre-capitalist era. This is evident in socialist countries that did not resist proprietarian tendencies. So I am not against Engels' strategy, but I am against baked-in proletarianization under communism as a desirable end goal.

The petty bourgeoisie is doomed anyway. He can be a fool being used and discarded by the bourgeoisie once he is no longer useful or he can decide to act based on what he shares with the proletariat by socializing land, tools, machinery, seeds, fertilizers, transport, credit, education, healthcare, childcare, eldercare, and so on.

Capitalism does away with the individualism of private property but retains private appropriation; socialism does not change this—what changes is that this appropriation becomes social as well.

Let us look at quotes that prove my point:

<Now, the owner of the instruments of labor always appropriated to himself the product, although it was no longer his product but exclusively the product of the labor of others. Thus, the products now produced socially were not appropriated by those who had actually set in motion the means of production and actually produced the commodities, but by the capitalists. The means of production, and production itself, had become in essence socialized. But they were subjected to a form of appropriation which presupposes the private production of individuals, under which, therefore, every one owns his own product and brings it to market. The mode of production is subjected to this form of appropriation, although it abolishes the conditions upon which the latter rests. [2]


<This contradiction, which gives to the new mode of production its capitalistic character, contains the germ of the whole of the social antagonisms of today. The greater the mastery obtained by the new mode of production over all important fields of production and in all manufacturing countries, the more it reduced individual production to an insignificant residuum, the more clearly was brought out the incompatibility of socialized production with capitalistic appropriation.

[…]
<The separation was made complete between the means of production concentrated in the hands of the capitalists, on the one side, and the producers, possessing nothing but their labor-power, on the other. The contradiction between socialized production and capitalistic appropriation manifested itself as the antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie.
[…]
<III. Proletarian Revolution — Solution of the contradictions. The proletariat seizes the public power, and by means of this transforms the socialized means of production, slipping from the hands of the bourgeoisie, into public property. By this act, the proletariat frees the means of production from the character of capital they have thus far borne, and gives their socialized character complete freedom to work itself out. Socialized production upon a predetermined plan becomes henceforth possible. The development of production makes the existence of different classes of society thenceforth an anachronism. In proportion as anarchy in social production vanishes, the political authority of the State dies out. Man, at last the master of his own form of social organization, becomes at the same time the lord over Nature, his own master — free.

<Frederick Engels, 1880, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, Chapter III [Historical Materialism]


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm

Now another quote from the previous paragraph talking about peasants:

<The main point is, and will be, to make the peasants understand that we can save, preserve their houses and fields for them only by transforming them into co-operative property operated co-operatively. It is precisely the individual farming conditioned by individual ownership that drives the peasants to their doom. If they insist on individual operation, they will inevitably be driven from house and home and their antiquated mode of production superseded by capitalist large-scale production. That is how the matter stands. Now, we come along and offer the peasants the opportunity of introducing large-scale production themselves, not for account of the capitalists but for their own, common account. Should it really be impossible to make the peasants understand that this is in their own interest, that it is the sole means of their salvation?


<Neither now, nor at any time in the future, can we promise the small-holding peasants to preserve their individual property and individual enterprise against the overwhelming power of capitalist production. We can only promise then that we shall not interfere in their property relations by force, against their will. Moreover, we can advocate that the struggle of the capitalists and big landlords against the small peasants should be waged from now on with a minimum of unfair means and that direct robbery and cheating, which are practiced only too often, be as far as possible prevented. In this we shall succeed only in exceptional cases. Under the developed capitalist mode of production, nobody can tell where honesty ends and cheating begins. But always it will make a considerable difference whether public authority is on the side of the cheater or the cheated.


<Engels 1894: The Peasant Question in France and Germany, Part 2: Germany


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/peasant-question/ch02.htm

As you can see, scientific socialism is on my side, not that of cowards who deny the supremacy of the proletarian class out of fear of suffering. If you persist on your path, you will be punished as a counter-revolutionary for denying the supremacy of the proletarian class—and thus as an enemy to be fought—for refusing to accept that the petty bourgeoisie is doomed.

>>2924321
>Yes they did. You are confusing Khrushchev with the Liberman reforms under Brezhnev. Those reforms were done because Khrushchev consolidated too much of everything under the purview of Gosplan and Gossnab. Artels sold things on markets and stores. You could do custom orders for clothes in stores and they would be routed to a private tailor, store getting the cut and you getting the product. This was done in the 1950s. You could also go to the tailor directly, the economy was different, but it was not just exclusive relationship with the state. Machine Tractor Stations were state property and not part of artels. Khanin said Stalin was thinking about further expanding commodity production. I guess we are dealing with Schrödinger's Stalin here.
You have no citations, so you have no proof for your arguments; furthermore, you are confusing an individual worker using their own labor power with cooperatives that had an exclusive relationship with the state. Khrushchev dismantled the state-owned Machine and Tractor Stations and handed them over to agricultural cooperatives; therefore, you are wrong.

You can see the arguments in this quote by Stalin:

<It is said that, since the domination of social ownership of the means of production has been established in our country, and the system of wage labour and exploitation has been abolished, commodity production has lost all meaning and should therefore be done away with.


<That is also untrue. Today there are two basic forms of socialist production in our country: state, or publicly-owned production, and collective-farm production, which cannot be said to be publicly owned. In the state enterprises, the means of production and the product of production are national property. In the collective farm, although the means of production (land, machines) do belong to the state, the product of production is the property of the different collective farms, since the labour, as well as the seed, is their own, while the land, which has been turned over to the collective farms in perpetual tenure, is used by them virtually as their own property, in spite of the fact that they cannot sell, buy, lease or mortgage it.


<The effect of this is that the state disposes only of the product of the state enterprises, while the product of the collective farms, being their property, is disposed of only by them. But the collective farms are unwilling to alienate their products except in the form of commodities, in exchange for which they desire to receive the commodities they need. At present the collective farms will not recognize any other economic relation with the town except the commodity relation - exchange through purchase and sale. Because of this, commodity production and trade are as much a necessity with us today as they were, say, thirty years ago, when Lenin spoke of the necessity of developing trade to the utmost.


<Of course, when instead of the two basic production sectors, the state sector and the collective-farm sector, there will be only one all-embracing production sector, with the right to dispose of all the consumer goods produced in the country, commodity circulation, with its "money economy," will disappear, as being an unnecessary element in the national economy. But so long as this is not the case, so long as the two basic production sectors remain, commodity production and commodity circulation must remain in force, as a necessary and very useful element in our system of national economy. How the formation of a single and united sector will come about, whether simply by the swallowing up of the collective-farm sector by the state sector - which is hardly likely (because that would be looked upon as the expropriation of the collective farms) - or by the setting up of a single national economic body (comprising representatives of state industry and of the collective farms), with the right at first to keep account of all consumer product in the country, and eventually also to distribute it, by way, say, of products-exchange - is a special question which requires separate discussion.


<Joseph Stalin, 1951, Economic Problems of the USSR, 2. Commodity Production Under Socialism


https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/ch03.htm

This other part of the text Stalin denies any intention to sell state properties as tractor stations for collective farms which was suggested by A.V. Sanina and V.G. Venzher and gives another solution to resolve commodity production while avoiding antagonizing collective farms such as nationalization by decree:

<The collective farm is an unusual kind of enterprise. It operates on land, and cultivates land which has long been public, and not collective-farm property. Consequently, the collective farm is not the owner of the land it cultivates.


<Further, the collective farm operates with basic implements of production which are public, not collective-farm property. Consequently, the collective farm is not the owner of its basic implements of production.


<Further, the collective farm is a cooperative enterprise: it utilizes the labour of its members, and it distributes its income among its members on the basis of workday units; it owns its seed, which is renewed every year and goes into production.


<What, then, does the collective farm own? Where is the collective-farm property which it disposes of quite freely, at its own discretion? This property of the collective farm is its product, the product of collective farming: grain, meat, butter, vegetables, cotton, sugar beet, flax, etc., not counting the buildings and the personal husbandry of the collective farmers on their household plots. The fact is that a considerable part of this product, the surplus collective-farm output, goes into the market and is thus included in the system of commodity circulation. It is precisely this circumstance which now prevents the elevation of collective-farm property to the level of public property. It is therefore precisely from this end that the work of elevating collective-farm property to the level of public property must be tackled.


<In order to raise collective-farm property to the level of public property, the surplus collective-farm output must be excluded from the system of commodity circulation and included in the system of products-exchange between state industry and the collective farms. That is the point.


<We still have no developed system of products-exchange, but the rudiments of such a system exist in the shape of the "merchandising" of agricultural products. For quite a long time already, as we know, the products of the cotton-growing, flax-growing, beet-growing and other collective farms are "merchandised." They are not "merchandised" in full, it is true, but only partly, still they are "merchandised." Be it mentioned in passing that "merchandising" is not a happy word, and should be replaced by "products-exchange." The task is to extend these rudiments of products-exchange to all branches of agriculture and to develop them into a broad system, under which the collective farms would receive for their products not only money, but also and chiefly the manufactures they need. Such a system would require an immense increase in the goods allocated by the town to the country, and it would therefore have to be introduced without any particular hurry, and only as the products of the town multiply. But it must be introduced unswervingly and unhesitatingly, step by step contracting the sphere of operation of commodity circulation and widening the sphere of operation of products-exchange.


<Such a system, by contracting the sphere of operation of commodity circulation, will facilitate the transition from socialism to communism. Moreover, it will make it possible to include the basic property of the collective farms, the product of collective farming, in the general system of national planning.


<That will be a real and effective means of raising collective-farm property to the level of public property under our present-day conditions.


<Will such a system be advantageous to the collective-farm peasantry? It undoubtedly will. It will, because the collective-farm peasantry will receive far more products from the state than under commodity circulation, and at much cheaper prices. Everyone knows that the collective farms which have products-exchange ("merchandising") contracts with the government receive incomparably greater advantages than the collective farms which have no such contracts. If the products-exchange system is extended to all the collective farms in the country, these advantages will become available to all our collective-farm peasantry.


<Joseph Stalin, 1951, Economic Problems of the USSR, Reply to Comrades A.V. Sanina and V.G. Venzher


https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1951/economic-problems/ch14.htm

If you had spent your time reading what Stalin actually wrote instead of relying on hearsay from third parties, you would understand that there were discussions about reducing the importance of money through barter with the state in order to curtail commodity production.

>You cannot disappear selling and buying, that's just idealism. Good luck legislating it away. Commodity production is unavoidable, the entire history of socialism is testament to this.

You are wrong. As all means of production are socialized under a sovereign economy within a proletarian state, this becomes inevitable because it is more efficient—after all, a multinational private company wouldn't waste time trading internally; trade exists to manipulate things for the capitalist's benefit in a capitalist market society. Creating an internal company currency is a waste of time when things could simply be planned. The goal of communists is to uphold the political supremacy of the proletarian class through a party independent of the bourgeoisie; therefore, any argument you make is irrelevant to me, because if you become an obstacle, you will be punished.

>How this contradiction was missed during proof-reading is beyond me.

I see nothing wrong with it. You appear to be nothing more than a counter-revolutionary liberal who will be punished during the communist revolution; perhaps re-education will help you stop believing in fantasies about class conciliation and lead you to accept the new ruling proletarian class, which will abolish social classes, private property, and the anarchy of production. I leave you with a quote so you understand what happens to the petty bourgeoisie that refuses to align itself with the supremacy of the proletarian class:

<No one had fought more fanatically in the June days for the salvation of property and the restoration of credit than the Parisian petty bourgeois – keepers of cafes and restaurants, marchands de vins [wine merchants], small traders, shopkeepers, handicraftsman, etc. The shopkeeper had pulled himself together and marched against the barricades in order to restore the traffic which leads from the streets into the shop. But behind the barricade stood the customers and the debtors; before it the creditors of the shop. And when the barricades were thrown down and the workers were crushed and the shopkeepers, drunk with victory, rushed back to their shops, they found the entrance barred by a savior of property, an official agent of credit, who presented them with threatening notices: Overdue promissory note! Overdue house rent! Overdue bond! Doomed shop! Doomed shopkeeper!


<Salvation of property! But the house they lived in was not their property; the shop they kept was not their property; the commodities they dealt in were not their property. Neither their business, nor the plate they ate from, nor the bed they slept on belonged to them any longer. It was precisely from them that this property had to be saved – for the house-owner who let the house, for the banker who discounted the promissory note, for the capitalist who made the advances in cash, for the manufacturer who entrusted the sale of his commodities to these retailers, for the wholesale dealer who had credited the raw materials to these handicraftsman. Restoration of credit! But credit, having regained strength, proved itself a vigorous and jealous god; it turned the debtor who could not pay out of his four walls, together with wife and child, surrendered his sham property to capital, and threw the man himself into the debtors’ prison, which had once more reared its head threateningly over the corpses of the June insurgents.


<The petty bourgeois saw with horror that by striking down the workers they had delivered themselves without resistance into the hands of their creditors. Their bankruptcy, which since February had been dragging on in chronic fashion and had apparently been ignored, was openly declared after June.


<The Class Struggles in France, 1848 to 1850, Part II From June 1848 to June 13, 1849


https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch02.htm

>>2920766
everyone learns this, nobody knows what to do about it. either you seize power from the people exploiting you, or you are at their mercy forever. if you try "abolish power" you just create a power vacuum that everyone seeking power quickly stampedes after.

>>2924342
Wrong. Imperialist capitalism is characterized by uneven development among countries; therefore, a simultaneous global revolutionary situation will not occur, as the communist movements in various countries will not progress at the same rate toward seizing power. Fantasizing about a global revolution to concoct opportunistic excuses for communists and workers to avoid overthrowing their bourgeois state and establishing a proletarian state constitutes counter-revolutionary betrayal. By your logic, Marx and Engels would have condemned the Paris Commune.

If, in a given country, workers have been prepared for a communist revolution by a communist party amidst a revolutionary situation, one cannot invent excuses to avoid overthrowing the bourgeois state; one must establish the dictatorship of the proletariat and strive to achieve economic sovereignty as quickly as possible, regardless of the suffering required to socialize the economy or the hatred one might incur. Giving up is also unacceptable. Defending the supremacy of the proletarian class, organized in a workers' party independent of the bourgeoisie, is the obligation of all communists.

>>2920766
I disagree. Your rhetoric reflects an anti-Marxist apathy rather than a desire to help the proletariat seize power and become the new ruling class.

>>2924513
The only crucial point is for the proletariat to achieve political supremacy by using social equality to abolish private property, the anarchy of production, and social classes. To me, fearing power is foolish. Morality is also irrelevant to me, because class interests dictate what matters: the class struggle, possessing class consciousness, and understanding the irreconcilable nature of the conflict between private property owners and non-owners social classes. Inventing imaginary enemies out of a fear of "authoritarianism", while ignoring the capitalist class and its apologists, leaves one vulnerable to co-optation.

>>2924513
It's why electoral mechanism are essential. They are the only real way power can be checked by the masses short of violence. The problem is, too many socialists are totalitarian ideologues who see any ability for anyone to check their power as the starting point for a counter revolution and therefore tolerate no dissent, which just leads to those "socialists" abusing their unchecked power like anyone else.


Unique IPs: 43

[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] | [Home][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ home / rules / faq / search ] [ overboard / sfw / alt ] [ leftypol / edu / labor / siberia / lgbt / latam / hobby / tech / games / anime / music / draw / AKM / ufo / 420 ] [ meta ] [ wiki / shop / tv / tiktok / twitter / patreon ] [ GET / ref / marx / booru ]