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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1790389753775-6.png (904.3 KB, 621x893, ClipboardImage.png)

 

What Young Marx actually thought about personal wealth and standard of living:

<A house may be large or small; as long as the neighboring houses are likewise small, it satisfies all social requirement for a residence. But let there arise next to the little house a palace, and the little house shrinks to a hut. The little house now makes it clear that its inmate has no social position at all to maintain, or but a very insignificant one; and however high it may shoot up in the course of civilization, if the neighboring palace rises in equal or even in greater measure, the occupant of the relatively little house will always find himself more uncomfortable, more dissatisfied, more cramped within his four walls. An appreciable rise in wages presupposes a rapid growth of productive capital. Rapid growth of productive capital calls forth just as rapid a growth of wealth, of luxury, of social needs and social pleasures. Therefore, although the pleasures of the labourer have increased, the social gratification which they afford has fallen in comparison with the increased pleasures of the capitalist, which are inaccessible to the worker, in comparison with the stage of development of society in general. Our wants and pleasures have their origin in society; we therefore measure them in relation to society; we do not measure them in relation to the objects which serve for their gratification. Since they are of a social nature, they are of a relative nature.


- Karl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital (1847), Chapter 6

Basically he is saying that being well-off isn't just about what you have, it's also about what everyone else has. If your income goes up but rich people's wealth increases much faster, you may actually feel poorer compared with them. Humans naturally compare themselves with other people, so our idea of what we need depends partly on the society we live in.

<The thoughts of every piece of private property as such are at least turned against richer private property in the form of envy and the desire to level everything down; hence these feelings in fact constitute the essence of competition. The crude communist is merely the culmination of this envy and desire to level down on the basis of a preconceived minimum. It has a definite, limited measure. How little this abolition of private property is a true appropriation is shown by the abstract negation of the entire world of culture and civilization, and the return to the unnatural simplicity of the poor, unrefined man who has no needs and who has not yet even reached the stage of private property, let alone gone beyond it. (For crude communism) the community is simply a community of labor and equality of wages, which are paid out by the communal capital, the community as universal capitalist. Both sides of the relation are raised to an unimaginary universality – labor as the condition in which everyone is placed and capital as the acknowledged universality and power of the community. […] The first positive abolition of private property – crude communism – is therefore only a manifestation of the vileness of private property trying to establish itself as the positive community. […] By reducing the worker's needs to the paltriest minimum necessary to maintain his physical existence and by reducing his activity to the most abstract mechanical movement. In so doing, the political economist declares that man has no other needs, either in the sphere of activity or in that of consumption. For even this life he calls human life and human existence. By taking as his standard – his universal standard, in the sense that it applies to the mass of men – the worst possible state of privation which life (existence) can know. He turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker's activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury.


- Karl Marx, Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts, Third Manuscript, Private Property and Labor (1844)

Marx is pointing out that making everyone equally poor isn't real freedom. If you eliminate private property as an institution of class society, but give everyone only the bare minimum, you've solved inequality by making everyone live with less. Human beings need more than food and shelter, they also need culture, enjoyment, creativity, education, and opportunities to develop themselves.


Our idea of being well off depends partly on how other people live, and he thinks both extreme wealth and extreme attempts to eliminate personal property can reduce human freedom and satisfaction. Two different things can be true at once. Extreme inequality can make people dissatisfied even when their material lives improve. Simply making everyone materially equal isn't enough if people are denied the ability to develop themselves and enjoy life. Human well-being is more complicated than simply counting how many possessions someone has. A person can have more stuff than they had before and still feel relatively poor. And a society can make everyone materially equal without necessarily giving people a rich, fulfilling human life. This is why bourgeois propaganda about how you should be grateful because you have better medicine than a bronze age king or a lower mortality rate than a feudal peasant falls flat. People aren't comparing themselves with the past, not even the very wealthy people of the past. This is also why workers in the imperial core aren't comparing their standard of living with the workers of the periphery, instead they compare their standard of living with the wealthy from their own societies. It is more visible and more obvious. Nobody working at McDonalds in Alabama is going to say "I have it so good compared to a in Indian in New Delhi, I should be happy with this."

Now compare the Young Marx of these passages with the older Marx of Capital Volume 1, all you like, but also compare this Marx with the popular idea of Marx inherited through conservative criticism of Marx and the shortcomings of historical projects like the USSR. Those people believe in a Marx who thinks everyone is equally poor and the government owns everything and everyone in a permanent prison panopticon. Marx's actual writings are a 19th century critique of capitalism, alienation, class relations, and private property. Marxism developed by later thinkers like are related to this but not identical. Marx actually thinks “luxury” can be part of human development. Marx isn't simply arguing that equality = happiness.

marx would shit, piss and cry himself to sleep if he heard about a guy being content living a simple life and eating simple meals with no desire to impress anyone.

marxist seem to not understand the concept of zen or detachment, just like the european tradition it is, very german too.

>>2920693
There is nothing wrong with living a simple life, with that I agree. Did you want to add anything else?

>>2920693
Teach a man to eat less and you saved man's stomach
Teach a man not to generate objects of envy, you saved a country from revolt.

>>2920705
People don't revolt out of envy. They revolt when their basic needs aren't being met and there is no legal path to improving their condition.

>>2920691
>Marx is pointing out that making everyone equally poor isn't real freedom.
Marx ultimately reckons with this later on (1875):
<equal right is still constantly stigmatized by a bourgeois limitation […] one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time […] This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor […] it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right […] Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal […] only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm
Is this not an advocacy for the equality of outcome? He sees that to have unequal possessions, even within the same class, is a "defect". So, it is my opinion that Communism's ideal is making everybody equally "poor" as each other. The real politics of envy is between fellow workers, not between workers and capitalists.
>>2920693
Marx was a glutton, so he knew nothing of austerity.
>>2920725
"The people" don't revolt; elites revolt against other elites.
The people can only offer loyalties to either.

>>2920693
Such people are subsidizes by the rest of society
As long as you have to wage you can't live "le simple life"

  1. if relations to production is relations of objects, sure what else you can compare, but things. Something missing is that.. so what? ok, some own more things, to a degree it is why I'm working longer.. but I do not need more things. It is not like I'm looking at what things they have, feel inferior. I just can't work less, no one will allow me. But also usually we do not ask: hey, why this shoes still sold for $100, should not it be just $10 by now if there is less labor in it? Why do not we get better public tansportation? It actually degrades!! Do you know that individual cars not just degrade public transportation, etc, but is a cause of inflation? In some cases, some jobs require you to own a car. My goal is not to stop everyone from using cars, but may be drive less, do not drive to work on a car!

  2. The thing is that under capitalism the labor is abstracted to just average labor. The crude communism, I think is similar to capitalism in that, no? It is using abstract time, but that is how capitalism is doing, but under captialism it is hidden by money/wages.

>>2920788
So this, call it comparative theory of consumption. It roots in contradiction of relations to production that look like relations of things, which itself roots in ignorance of abstract labor time, which itself is a contradiction of private property, as only private owners need to exchange things. It is from "Towards critique of political economy", small text published before Capital. The contradiction of common manufacturing Vs private manufacturing, solved by money. Which gave freedom to capital.

But although USSR did solve this contradiction, there was no private property. As I said given AFAIK that only just 20% of people drive cars, it is hell already.. we can't make everyone to drive a car. At first it seem car is comfortable, faster, it gives you new freedom. But as more people begin using cars, it contradicts the first assumption - inflation, driving is now slow, degradation of public transpotation, closing of regional hospitals, schools, etc.. cause higher use of individual cars. A car is no longer a choice of comfort or new freedom, but is necessary.

Idk what is this contradiction, when something looks positive at first, but becomes necessary, is. But it is also with clothes. We think we can express ourselfes by making different styles, fashion. Wich in the end, make as work longer to just live by, which takes all our time for expression.

>>2920756
>"The people" don't revolt; elites revolt against other elites.
>The people can only offer loyalties to either.
this is very Mike Duncan pilled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd-fz1uqBiI&list=PLIjP3HEQ0F--FExA7qFrTT3c7Ex8EiY2O

>>2920922
>Mike Duncan
based

>>2920788
>>2920819
thank you for these thoughtful replies. i want you to know that i read them but i don't have much to add.

>>2920757
>noo you don't understand I need to buy status and consoom to survive, I can't just ignore what the crowd does, I need to be cool and get in debt buying bullshit and eating out!

food shelter and clothing, the light and water bill etc, those things you cannot go without so capital forces you to work yes, but the need for status and keeping up with the joneses is not an actual need, grow up.

>>2920691
>A person can have more stuff than they had before and still feel relatively poor.

keyword: feel

what actually determines poverty is more measurable, food (getting the actual nutrients needed to survive and be healthy), shelter, work conditions/hours, physical health, electricity, water, etc.

anything else is just comparison and looking at what the other guy does and what is cool, not a need.

>>2923589
there are cases though where people who get their basic needs met still riot because they perceive unfairness, and there are cases where people are starving to death and don't riot because everyone else is also starving to death.

>there are cases where people are starving to death and don't riot because everyone else is also starving to death.

they are stupid then

>>2920704
If everyone lived a simple life modern society would collapse (this is bad for Marxists).
>>2920922
It's Nrx theory (top/bottom vs. middle, masses wielded by elites as a hammer) which rejects the idea that the masses can do anything on their own (they see Marxism as saying children could overthrow their parents).

Anyway, here's one for youz guys: I heard young Marx initially rejected socialism because he thought it was trad peasant communes which he thought would be destroyed by industry. Is that true? Did he ever write about that somewhere?

>>2923760
meme made by someone whose only knowledge of the amish comes from amish romances

>>2923760
its funny how the Amish rely on a state that uses technology to uphold its dominance.

>>2923760
well even lenin said the proletariat was only capable of trade union conscious. and duncan does not strike me as an NrX guy. he is not nearly that edgy about it. He is more like "revolutions are cross cultural class alliances but the lower classes inevitably get betrayed by the new ruling class" so he is more of a cynic about it.

>>2923783
kind of like those haredim in israel who don't work or fight but have lots of kids and read torah all day. yeah the amish are actually quite a bit like that.

>>2923760
>just become a rural farmer bro. it's not like capital has a process for seizing the land from peasants and forcing them into the cities or anything


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