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File: 1790754948757-9.jpg (174.34 KB, 1080x1350, 842251815915.jpg)

 

Here is an excellent article from Jacobin magazine:

>Inside the workplace your boss rules like a dictator, dictating the pace, the discipline, and how the fruits of labor are distributed. The core message of the text is that there can be no socialism without workers full control over the means of production and workplace democracy.


>The authors (Beggs, Burgis & Sunkara) dismantle the myth of the efficiency of authoritarian management. Empirical evidence shows that worker-managed enterprises are at least as productive, and often more resilient, than traditional capitalist firms.


>Workplace democracy reduces alienation, commits workers to shared goals, and gives decision-making power to those who know the production process best; the workers themselves.


https://jacobin.com/2026/09/economic-democracy-is-at-the-heart-of-socialism

404


>>2923329
What if the orphan crushing machine was a co-op.

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>>2923329
>Jacobin magazine

>the boss
You mean the manager.
And the manager is also a worker.
Managers are very important, and imposing workplace democracy is as clunky as dividing power amongst any field.

>excellent article
>Jacobin magazine
pick one
>Beggs
>Sunkara
behead market "socialists"
also the article is paywalled. or more correctly, nagwalled

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>>2923629
>You mean the manager.
Do they?
>Someone must coordinate a team process. But without an effective way for workers to voice their preferences and have those preferences be taken into account, the coordination will happen on the employer’s terms. Workers can only express objections in negative ways: by leaving, by quietly not cooperating, by working less diligently and energetically than they might. At best, collective bargaining through a union gives workers a seat at the table, but they are still usually restricted to responding defensively to employer initiative. In contrast, in a democratic workplace, administrators are accountable to their colleagues. Not only must worker preferences be taken into account, but they must be actively sought. Those preferences can now be expressed positively, with those working together also working out together how best to do the job.
And later
>In a socialist economic order where democracy had been extended to the workplace, there could be a wide plurality of specific firm constitutions, but the standard for a midsize to large firm would involve representative democracy, with elected directors appointing and monitoring administrators who would be responsible for day-to-day management. This could be supplemented by committees and referenda as needed, but routine administration is best handled by specialist professional workers with expertise in accounting, logistics, and so on. Democracy does its job by making sure the administrators are ultimately answerable to their colleagues and that working conditions and broad questions of strategy have general approval.
>>2923672
>Nagwalled
Here you go https://archive.is/2GYZ7

I wouldn't call this article excellent either. It seems at first they suggest workplace democracy as some sort of reform compatible with capitalism and even private ownership, similar to the Employers and Workmen Act they mention, and then later talk about a socialist economic order (except the economic order is just a cooperative economy but whatever), so which one is it?

>>2923629
Commercial planes are flown by two people working in democracy retard

>>2923729
A first officer is subordinate to a pilot, I wouldn't call that analogous to democracy. Image is still a retarded argument for oligarchy.

File: 1790794445841-6.png (1.54 MB, 1024x683, Expertpanel_1.png)

>>2923686
>do they?
Yes. The manager is in charge of franchises and this extends to a chain of command, up to the CEO, who themself answers to the real capitalists; shareholders. Substituting the "boss" for the owner is a complete fallacy which proves disconnection from reality. Workplace democracy makes no sense in most cases; a workplace joint ownership does, though, since then there is incentive for hard work.
>>2923729
>Flying a plane is democracy
Anon…
>>2923730
>oligarchy
Managers are essential to production and nothing would be done without them. Body workers need brain workers and vice versa.

>>2923629
>We need a communist revolution so workers control the means of production!!! No more capitalist exploitation!!!
>But workers shouldn't directly control the means of production actually…They need to obey to higher-ups in suits who don't participate in the production process because they know better what to do…

I find this so funny. You people always talk like edgy radicals ready to overthrow the world order through blood and tears, but suggest that maybe workers don't need bosses and an army of opportunistic managers to control production, and suddenly you are afraid.

>There we claimed that the fundamental division in contemporary societies was the division into directors and executants. We attempted to show how the working class's own development would lead it to a socialist consciousness. We stated that socialism could only be the product of the autonomous action of the working class. We stressed that a socialist society implied the abolition of any separate stratum of directors and that it therefore implied the power of mass organs and workers' management of production.

This scares the average communist shitless. Face it, you just wish you were a middle-manager but you are too inept to do it under contemporary capitalism.

>>2923739
I'm literally just explaining reality to you.
Management is necessary.
Without managers, there could be no direction of production.
That's why even in a "democracy" you must still elect a manager.

>>2923740
>I'm literally just explaining reality to you.
Reality as it exists under capitalism and bureaucratic societies. Do you believe it's "human nature" to have managers, especially in the form of modern corporate management?

>Management is necessary.

>Without managers, there could be no direction of production.
I guess workers are too stupid to direct production themselves, they need a boss to do that, because you said so.
Capitalism is actually better for this because the boss has the invective to optimize production since his/her own capital is at play and they have everything to lose. That's why workers' self management is utopian and communist societies either crumbled down or did market reforms, because capitalism is more efficient due to competition. Thank you, I get it now.

>That's why even in a "democracy" you must still elect a manager.

Maybe the workers can do it themselves? Maybe the managers can be workers who participate in the production process, instead of being useless suits toying around with Powerpoint all day and while getting paid triple the wage of regular executants?
I can easily imagine a company full of executants actually producing stuff and exchanging it on a market or being part of a planning system, whatever. I can't however imagine a company with only directors giving orders to each other while masturbating on Office 365. Just food for thought.

>>2923738
I was just pointing out the article doesn't say there would be no managers, just that management would be elected. That's why I asked
>Do they?
As in, is that what they are saying in the article? You're roughly saying the same thing the article is in the second paragraph I quoted as far as I'm concerned.

The cartoon is an argument for oligarchy, because it is arguing ordinary people lack the ability to rule and should be excluded from decision-making and irrelevant since the authors are not arguing for people doing a job they are not qualified for, like a passenger flying a plane.

The liberals have gone completely insane. The end of the empire nears.

>>2923746
The liberals are going completely insane for suggesting workers should control the means of production?

>>2923748
No, for dabbling into Trumpoganda and attempting to tie themselves at MAGA’s hip.

>>2923739
Well socialism is so similar to capitalism, it's not that interesting when you look into it. Go work, collect labor vouchers, spend them at the store. Not sure what all that theory was for.

so I read through the fine article and 70% of it is waffle. the actual ideas are only at the end. so let's see what these market "socialists" propose besides co-ops
>a labor board that sets a minimum wage
I have no problem with this
>a public bank
here is where we immediately run into problems. such a public bank holds decision power of what to invest in. two questions immediately come to mind
1) is this bank to be independent ála most bourgeois states' central banks?
2) on what grounds is the bank to decide which proposals are worthwhile, considering the lack of planning? in capitalism this process is essentially anarchic. I suspect they have zero idea, because of this bit:
>Public banks can control enough eggs to spread them in a rational way throughout a number of baskets
by controlling enough "eggs" (money capital) the bank can supposedly invest said eggs in rational baskets. but how? the authors do not say. nor could they, because correct investment decisions amount to planning, which the authors are against
there are no other ideas in the texts besides this as far as I can tell. just co-ops, a minimum wage and a public bank. big whoop

>>2923739
>But workers shouldn't directly control the means of production actually…They need to obey to higher-ups in suits who don't participate in the production process because they know better what to do…
this tbh. workplace democracy is submission to the suits, to the collective will, as expressed through the plan and through the political system (i.e. the party). to submit is to be free. to submit is halal

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>>2923329
The issue with workplace democracy is that you're effectively only democratizing economic production *within* the firm, rather than *over* the firm. The point of socializing production is to let people have control over what they produce, to satisfy their social needs. That's the whole crux of Engels' critique in the anti-dühring : production is a social activity, but it is only done for the bourgeois' profit, rather than the satisfaction of social needs and desires. The gap between those leads to alienation, relative immiseration, periodical crisis, political capture etc.
By socializing production, but only for the workers inside the firm, you're solving alienation, but you're not solving anything else. The workers interest in that firm will be to satisfy demand which brings them most cash, rather than the satisfaction of needs. Competition will still take place, leading to joblessness, periodical crisis etc.

And then there's also the historical and empirical evidence with yugoslavia.

>>2923743
>Do you believe it's "human nature" to have managers, especially in the form of modern corporate management?
The existence of managers is due to the fact that, when you have a task, there is only a finite number of possible ways to realize it amongst many constraints. For instance, if I want to produce a car whilst having a time constraint, I simply won't be able to work leisurely. This is the role that managers fulfill : they organize tasks in an efficient manner to avoid waste.
In capitalist production, this "waste" is expenses : the unorganized workers costs more than organized workers to produce the same goods. However, in a socialist society, the notion of waste would simply be what people percieve as such (eg. energy expense, time, quality etc).

>I guess workers are too stupid to direct production themselves, they need a boss to do that

Unironically, yes. Have you ever worked in a factory anon ? Or in a shop ?

>Maybe the workers can do it themselves?

Empirical evidence suggests that this leads to massive inneficiencies as workers priorize their own self-interest within the firm they work in rather than their self-interest as a class. Something something quoting lenin something something.

>>2923759
Isn't the point of the public bank be that it selects what to invest in based on democratic goals ? E.g. they invest in green energy because the public has a need for it.
Imo the problem with these public banks is more that it would end up infinitely subsidizing firms, even when the public wouldn't want it, by virtue of job-loss being politically risky.

>>2923776
What if workers decide they don't want to mine coltan or log forests or work on electrical lines or in slaughterhouses or other dirty dangerous unpleasant jobs.

>>2923743
>Do you believe it's "human nature" to have managers
Even hunter-gatherers have leaders on the hunt although it's not usually permanent and if they suck someone else gets a go.

>>2923792
The role of manager also does not need to be like an eternal enshrined position only one person can have

>>2923776
>Isn't the point of the public bank be that it selects what to invest in based on democratic goals ? E.g. they invest in green energy because the public has a need for it.
uhuh. but you again run into the kind of problems for which you need planning. which investment proposals exactly should get funding and why? should we invest in nuclear, or photovoltaics? in geothermal or hydroelectric? these things are often mutually exclusive. investing in either one sets you down mutually exclusive paths
>Imo the problem with these public banks is more that it would end up infinitely subsidizing firms
this is a rather weak attack, because the authors could just say "well we'll just not grant credit eventually". it's even in the text
>>2923788
those who don't work don't eat

>>2923776
>However, in a socialist society, the notion of waste would simply be what people percieve as such (eg. energy expense, time, quality etc).
Who would these people be, and how would they decide what is waste? Would it be democratic? Or would it be managers fresh out of business scientific management schools with zero work experience? Once again, would executants take actual decisions, or would it be only the resort of a separate caste of directors?

>Have you ever worked in a factory anon ? Or in a shop ?

I have worked at both unqualified manual jobs in the agricultural sector and intellectual work in corporate offices.

In my experience, manual workers in agriculture can't direct production in the current conditions, because they are formed to execute only a very narrow set of tasks in the production process, and have a very vague understanding of the whole production chain, if at all.
This is a defect of education, work training, and work organization. This is not a fatality. Manual workers are considered to be dumb and expendable in general.

Moreover, if you have worked at similar manual jobs, you must know that having to do the same set of repetitive tasks over and over again is ultimately soul-crushing.
I think it's possible to expand the involvement of manual workers in a much broader part of the production process, so they ultimately gain a better understanding of how to manage it efficiently.

———

In the office, it's different because executants tend to be more solicited to do tasks that are usually within the realm of managers. It's also very dependent on the type of project you work on.

There are projects which can be done by a small team or even a solo worker, and in that case, the low-level managers are almost superfluous and just tend to make sure you filled the Excel sheets correctly, re-read the Word documents, etc.

There are more complex projects which involve several teams working on different parts of a product, each team has a manager, then these managers are themselves managed by a supervising manager or several.
Of course, in these cases, coordination is needed and difficult to put into place, but it's not like these supervising managers are doing God's work.
There are often mismatches between the work done by all the different teams, and more often than not, when it's time to put everything together, it's executants who have to directly communicate between themselves to make sure all the parts fit correctly, because they have the relevant technical knowledge that managers don't necessarily have.

In corporate work in general, there is a dizzying hierarchy of managers.
At the top level, they often come out of elite schools, control entire departments and are basically indistinguishable from the bourgeoisie as they own significant amount of company stocks (hell, there is even intra-company competition over yearly budgets).
At the lowest levels, they are basically a basic worker that got promoted into overseeing the most direct aspect production and the simplest aspects of accounting just like a basic manager at McDonalds.
In between these two poles, there are at minimum two or three additional levels of management, depending on the size of the company.

———

The truth is, a lot of the work done by managers isn't actually the work of an overseer making sure production goes as planned without problems, but to be the representative of the company and deal with the customers.

It begins when they show a Powerpoint to a potential customer, telling them "we can deliver this and that", they negotiate, then once a contract is signed, it usually goes like this:
  • The manager asks specifications from the customer.
  • The customer delivers shitty vague specifications, because they don't really know what they want, but also because it allows them to potentially negotiate later on for unpaid work (i.e. "we wrote this in the specs, and by this we meant [something outside of the perimeter of what was initially agreed upon]").
  • There is a back-and-forth between the different managers at the company, and the customer who also have different layers of management. To summarize quickly, it's all a game of "what did they mean by this?" and more importantly, if what they meant by this is applicable in the terms of the contract.
  • Parts of the product are eventually delivered, the customer test them, give their approval or not, then rinse and repeat.


You might notice that I didn't mention the worker anywhere in this process.
It's simple, workers are basically asked to work on whatever they can as fast as they can while the managers and the customers endlessly negotiate.

For the customer, it's in their best interest to spend the most minimal amount of money for the best product possible.
For the corporate manager, it's in their best interest to bill the customer for the highest amount of money possible, and make sure the executants deliver the product in the quickest amount of time possible, so they can allocate these workers human resources to another project.

———

Maybe now, you do understand why I'm very cynical about management.

The interest of managers isn't to benevolently oversee production to make sure their employees are producing quality products within a good and comfortable work environment.
The interest of managers is to make sure the largest amount of work possible is done in the tightest amount of time necessary, show to the upper-echelon of management the executants have done so successfully under their orders, and eventually climb up the corporate ladder for a higher salary and some shares of the company.

In short: the interests of managers are different from the interests of executants.

Now, I see this talk about "socializing production", but how should it be done in practice? Because it can means a lot of different things, like nationalizing companies, but keeping the management hierarchy completely intact.

In my opinion, the truly radical idea of "the abolition of any separate stratum of directors" is one of the only ways to make sure executants don't get subjugated by an external force that is virtually the same as a boss under capitalism.
I can think of a system not unlike Greek democracy where, for example, workers would elect among themselves some people in charge of management duties, with a possibility of immediate revocation in case they fuck up or make the working conditions worse for everyone, and workers would be trained for to eventually manage production at some point, just like Athenians were educated from birth to be a responsible citizen and take political decisions at some point in their lives.

>Empirical evidence suggests that this leads to massive inneficiencies as workers priorize their own self-interest within the firm they work in rather than their self-interest as a class.

Are you talking about the Yugoslav system?

>>2923743
>Do you believe it's "human nature" to have managers
Yes. As children we have adult guardians and teachers.
As adults, we have trainers and managers.
Eventually, we should become guardians, managers and/or teachers.
>workers are too stupid to direct production themselves
MANAGERS ARE WORKERS.
Why can't you get this through your skull?
>Maybe the managers can be workers who participate in the production process, instead of being useless suits
You sound permanently unemployed.
Try working in a warehouse and see the utility of management.
>>2923744
>ordinary people lack the ability to rule
Of course they do.
I don't think I am qualified to lead anyone.

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>>2923629
Bad example because we chose to be on the plane.
Bad example because the pilots are actually eating us.
Bad example because our world is not a plane.

>Muh analogies

>Muh metaphors

The movie The Cube is a more appropriate metaphor for life/work/everything than a plane.

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Interesting thread, but those walls of text are giving me a headache.

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>>2923329
>jacobin

>>2923629
no socialist is against hierarchies of competence. obviously a newbie should listen to an experienced person in matters of technical expertise. obviously group of laymen should not try to overthrow a professional. the conceit of this cartoon is to confuse the "expertise" of the capitalist in the matter of exploiting workers and the "expertise" of the politician in the matter of swindling voters with the actual expertise of managing workplaces and governing society, both of which can be done by competent and educated administrators without them being paid billions to do so.

>>2924403
The point is that democracy is not always the correct solution.
In my opinion, it is rarely the correct solution.
>>2924593
>expertise of the capitalist
Managers are not capitalists.
>paid billions
My warehouse manager had that position for over 20 years and only made double my entry-level salary. You don't seem to know how these things work. A CEO isn't paid as much as you might imagine either, even if it is a lot more than the minimum wage. It is the shareholders of a company who receive the profits in stock revenue. Investors are not workers, nor are they experts - this is the class enemy, not managers. The fact that CEOs are blamed for everything and not the actual owners shows how ignorant people are of the facts. Bill Gates is not the CEO of Microsoft; Jeff Bezos is not the CEO of Amazon, etc. Thus, the idea of an isolated franchise as the battleground of workers versus "bosses" is just a civil war of labourers which advances nothing at all.

>>2924642
>muh managers
Democracy doesnt mean you dont have mangers you absolute retard.

>>2924647
>democracy = no managers
Where do I imply this at all?
I am the one who wrote: >>2923740
<even in a "democracy" you must still elect a manager.
The pilot example still sees an election of a pilot.
You call me "retarded" but have no reading comprehension. Curious.
If I'm wrong, please show me where I say democracy = no managers.

This sounds myopic. Yes, worker-run firms tend to be a bit nicer to work at. And that's your "socialism"? From what I have seen from the authors so far they all know enough to shit on far-right internet personalities, but they basically recycle all the liberal talking points about the USSR. There are tremendous differences between firms, so workers inheriting the workplace would instantly create an unequal playing field. (I'm against workers at place X owning the revenue from sales place X achieved. For that matter, I'm against workers at place X owning the output of place X. Means of production and resources should all be pooled together and steered in a synchronized way.) I doubt any of the authors have engaged with anything by the econophysics guys who have shown that a money system generates extreme inequality over time. I don't expect much, but I'm willing to read a free copy of their book.

>>2925489
>Yes, worker-run firms tend to be a bit nicer to work at.
Workers including management run a firm whether or not a bourgeoisie owns it. The question is ownership and not who does what. Management can just as easily be democratically elected.

>And that's your "socialism"?

My central point is that socialism and communism are about class society and abolishing it in favor of a classless society. Communism isnt defined by how production is organized since that changes as technology develops. Its defined by who owns the means of production: workers working for themselves or workers selling their labor to a porky who owns the firm.

>but they basically recycle all the liberal talking points about the USSR

This is internal critique.

>>2926548
>The question is ownership and not who does what.
And this is myopic. In two ways:
  1. Ownership is a legal construct. What is legally, formally, officially, real and what is, well, really real are not the same question. (Do gays disappear when there is a law stating "nobody is gay"?)
  2. It makes a huge difference whether ownership is fragmented (the sailors own the specific ship they are on) or unified (working class owns resources as a common pool). The problem with capitalism isn't merely the ruling class exploiting the workers. It is also the chaos that happens when the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. We need more coordinating and synchronizing of actions and this requires centralizing information.

>>2926938
>Ownership is a legal construct. What is legally, formally, officially, real and what is, well, really real are not the same question.
Agreed but this is not the counter you imagine it being. Marx talks about relations of production not deeds of it.

Real ownership means that someone actually holds decision rights and has a claim to surplus. A Soviet enterprise "owned by the people" where gosplan and the party nomenklatura made the decisions and controlled the surplus was not worker-owned in any real sense only on paper.

Formal common ownership plus a centralized apparatus just creates a new class that controls the means of production.

>We need more coordinating and synchronizing of actions and this requires centralizing information.


This is what I disagree with. Factory manager knows the machine is about to fail. Worker knows which suppliers parts are junk. Consumer doesnt know what they want until they see it. None of this fits neatly into a report to central planners.

And everything changes constantly. By the time data is collected and turned into a plan, its outdated.

There is also the problem of creative destruction. If enterprises that arent allowed to fail have no reason to economize and streamline their processes.

Factory managers were incentivized to lie in their reports to central planners about their output being low and input being incredibly high in order to secure resources of the factory.

All of these failures can be solved with market prices that compress all of this information without anyone having to report it honestly.

Nothing about this requires a bourgeoisie ownerhsip. Worker-owned firms trading with each other with planning reserved for things markets do badly like with infrastructure, externalities and long-horizon investment.

Also capitalism isnt some kind chaos where every individual competes on market against other individuals. Every enterprise has a central plan and we can observe this with Walmart or Amazon. Key difference to socialism is ownership not how resources are allocated.

>>2927043
>Formal common ownership plus a centralized apparatus just creates a new class that controls the means of production.
Centralized decisions don't logically require a special group at the center, but this is of course threat we must deal with. We need:
  1. sortition-selected chambers as filters any proposed regulation must go through
  2. sortition-selected juries deciding on punishment with the ability to nullify regardless of what the law says
  3. people setting min and max income by regular referenda
  4. remuneration in consumption points and avoiding any in-kind perks as much as possible (since these obfuscate how big the differences can be and undermine point 3).

we can talk about all kinds of theoretical ways to democratize the workplace and blow lots of hot air out of our assholes fantasizing and conjecturing, or we could just look at the only real-world proven example of workplace democracy - labor unions. in the most aggressively anti-labor country in the world, the united states, we are all brainwashed into believing that labor is autocratic by default, that the baseline lowest energy state of industry is to be a dictatorship where the employer has all of the power and the employees have none. but that's complete and utter bullshit, labor organization is not a novel or revolutionary idea and it has existed in various forms for as long as hired labor has existed, in the pre-industrial era local merchants and craftsmen organized and helped each other through trade guilds, even lowly serfs living in bondage under feudal lords managed to organize and help each other to some extent by way of the church. it takes tremendous resources and effort to put a stop to things like collective organization and mutual aid. the american system is not the normal way of things, it is an unbalanced unnatural system that was meticulously and painstakingly manufactured and sustained by actively criminalizing any attempts at labor organization by workers and granting legal immunity and continuous support to businesses in their war against the workers, even to the point of using violence and lethal force if necessary. people don't want to be starving and suffering and helpless and they aren't stupid or masochistic, they don't endure terrible dehumanizing conditions because they don't have enough sense to figure a way out of it, they endure it because there is no way out of it, because active powerful outside forces are continually at work keeping them right where they are forever and ever.

If random people off the street can't wander around a nuclear power plant and press the shiny buttons it's still private property.


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