I see no reason why in an anarcho zone I can’t pray or believe in some deity. I think the problem is religions that compel people to do things in the name of the deity- why do so many communists take hostility if someone personally thinks god started the big bang and treat it as counterrevolutionary?
If you took your faith actually seriously you would be aware that not only Marxism does reject philosphical idealism in form of abrahamic religions but that abrahamic religions also do explicitly reject materialist Ideologies such Marxism. So you manage to be bad at both, you are a bad communist and a bad believer.
communism is compatible with everything: religion, privatization, stock markets, nationalism, liberalism, feudalism, social-democracy, the bourgeoisie, the petite-bourgeosie, monarchs, aristocrats, private military companies, star wars, etc. because its not a dogma, its dialectical.
because churches are money milkers and religious groups usually try to gain the power.
no ideology works with theocracy.
>>2924539X-MEN origin? uninjactoress?
>>2924543>what dengoids actually believeThe state of this board
SCIENTIFIC socialism is incompatible with religion
>>2924539>ACT OF GOD.jpgidk anon I looked into this and she and her boyfriend tortured a 19 year old woman to death when she was 18 her boyfriend was 17. the boyfriend didn't get the death penalty because hew as "underage" while she did because she was 18. What kind of God lets someone get tortured to death, lets one person get away with it because they're "underage" and the other have their execution botched 27 years later? Like what's the point? it all seems to me to be completely random and stupid.
>>2924576>What kind of God lets someone get tortured to deaththe greek gods, abrahamic gods, norse gods….
if there is a god then when happens so he is okay with it.
the guy literally made the hell you will burn there for eternity.
>>2924581>>2924576Jesus rejected satan's offer to rule the kingdoms of the earth. 1 John 5:19 says the devil rules the world, Ephesians 6:12 says Christians are at war with demonic powers ruling human hierarchies from the spirit realms, Ephesians 2:2 says the devil rules the spirit (zeitgeist) of the world.
Maybe it's not an "act of god" but an act of "the god of this world" (satan).
>>2924582the most zartostrian shit i ever heard.
in their story also for couple of mellenials ahriman will rule and after that ahura will take power.
also jesus has same exact birth story as soshiant.
soshiant is the saviour that will born at a lake with his virgin mother touching no man.
all of this religions are plagiarized from each other. since mithraism and star prayers.
>>2924576because god is creation of man , a self image of the humans, their picture him as a king sitting on a throne ruling the world, becausee man doesn't know what perfect means and he pictures the god as flawed as himself.
>>2924543>obvious anti-"dengoid" "satire" (strawman)>>2924551>hurr durr this strawman is what "dengoids" actually believeSamefag or just really bad at catching an obvious false flag post?
>>2924538Lenin's position was that religion was a private matter but that the party itself was not to allow in religious people because the purpose of the party is to serve as the vanguard of the proletariat, not to be a liberal hugbox for idealists.
Anyway "belief in God" does not necessarily imply religion since there are nonreligious theists… but the vast majority of theists are religious and not merely believe in God, but see God as the literal LORD of the universe. So yes the abolition of class includes the abolition of ideologies which uphold class, like religion. Religion itself is an interclass affair. Religion teaches you to regard people of the same religion as your comrades, regardless of their class, and people of other religions as heretics, regardless of their class. It has a similar effect as nationalism in that regard.
>>2924591With terminally online retards like sinbad, you never know what is satire and what is reactionary "socialism" being pushed on this site.
Because religion is idealism and communists are materialiststs
These threads will die when americans go to sleep. I will never consider believing in magical fairy creatures to be normal or a sane worldview.
>>2924633>and dictate how other people think. And religions dont do this? I was not forced to pray every day by atheist in school.
I'm starting to believe that only left-leaning people are allowed to be religious(in general).
>>2924633 Yes, and trying to dictate and control the world and everyone's thoughts is something that religion has never openly and enthusiastically endorsed. As Christ said in John 14:6, "I am a way, a suggestion, a little guiding star. If you follow your heart and think critically you can see the father through me if you want."
>>2924551 I saw some loser on here yesterday uniromically saying that we can never eliminate the commodity form a system of economic distribution.
>>2924539I hate islam and hinduism too
>>2924591deport all dengoids back to r/neoliberal where they belong and the quality of leftypol will improve tenfold
>>2924538The problem is dispositional. The kind of person who still believes in god generally has a low openness, low neuroticism personality while the average leftist is high openness, high neuroticism. The result is that it's very unlikely that the person will agree with leftists on other issues.
One can, in theory, be a good communist who likes to wear nazi uniforms. It is just cloth, after all, it cannot possibly invalidate your ideological commitments (whereas certain fabrics as we know breach biblical instructions), HOWEVER nobody would be so naive as to trust a self proclaimed communist who just happens to always dress as Hitler, at his word.
>>2924701kek, I kind of like him because he simply says the quite part out loud, many people here are equally as reactionary as he is but are better at sounding like leftoids
>>2924538The only 'god' which is proven to exist is the material god of Capital, who is embodied in every value-form on Earth and who most humans worship through the submission of their labor-power.
It is our task as communists to kill this God, cast down His prophets and churches and deliver humanity to a heaven without classes, exploitation or commodities.
If people want to believe in whatever mystical immaterial spirits outside of that, then we don't care. Just don't get in the way of our Mission
>>2924710But it was humanity that created the god of capital. In a sense, humanity is a higher god than capital. So how does a stronger god get enslaved to a weaker god?
>Religion is reactionary
Idealist position. Religion is an empty shell, form without content. The degree of openness to interpretation, things being lost in translation or missing the social context of the original scriptures etc. all mean that virtually any political position can be defended in religious language. John Brown and Stonewall Jackson were both devout Christians after all, as were Strom Thurmand and MLK Jr. It only has meaning and real world impact when animated by class forces, and progressive class forces are no less progressive for expressing themselves in religious terms.
>Religion is idealist
Only in the most abstract sense of regarding an immaterial force as the prime mover of the universe. This view however doesn't preclude viewing dialectical and historical materialism as the mechanisms by which society operates once set in motion by God, or even as simply a description of the means by which God drives history whether via direct intervention or the autonomous operation of free will. Such a view would be similar to a physicist who believes in God and simply regards the laws of physics as a description of the mechanisms put in place by God to govern the universe. Many such people exist and are no less capable as scientists because of it.
Anti-theism among communists is a relic of the era when church and state were far more integrated, when the Church was directly implicated in the capitalist (or semi feudal) order as a major land holder, and where its earthly political and economic power needed to be smashed out of necessity. However even then, I'm of the view that communists in the 20th century took their anti-theism too far and ended up hurting themselves far more than they helped. It should go without saying that we should not erect unnecessary ideological obstacles between the communists and the workers, but forcing them to choose between their faith and their class does just that and plays into the hands of reaction. At most we should criticize the reactionary actions of religious institutions while leaving religion itself as a private matter. In countries where communists come to power, they should aim to subordinate and co-opt religious institutions rather than suppress them outright (e.g. the contemporary Chinese approach). Even better, they should actively cultivate and promote pro-communist interpretations of religion.
>>2924633Atheist: I want to control you and dictate how you think. At least I'm honest about it.
Religious: I totally don't want to control you and dictate how you think. In fact when I tell you to do things they are all ideas I got from the creator of the universe. So if you think about it everything I say has infinite authority behind it but it totally wasn't my idea.
One gaslights, the other does not.
>>2924716>Most sensible post on this threadI guarantee it will cause massive seethe and denunciation.
Lenin (1905) permits religion as a private affair, rejecting the religious question in itself, stating that mere theology is an obscuration of class struggle. He even writes that compulsory atheism cannot be permitted:
<Religion must be declared a private affair […] under no circumstances ought we to fall into the error of posing the religious question in an abstract, idealistic fashion, as an “intellectual” question unconnected with the class struggle […] That is the reason why we do not and should not set forth our atheism in our Programme; that is why we do not and should not prohibit proletarians who still retain vestiges of their old prejudices from associating themselves with our Party […] The revolutionary proletariat will succeed in making religion a really private affairhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htmIn the original Soviet constitution (1918), religion was permitted by the freedom of conscience, under article 2, clause 13:
<For the purpose of securing to the workers real freedom of conscience, the church is to be separated from the state and the school from the church, and the right of religious and anti-religous propaganda is accorded to every citizen.https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/government/constitution/1918/article2.htmThis paragraph is given verbatim in the 1936 constitution; article 124:
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/12/05.htmThe fools who respond with a positive atheist policy are idealists who think that political struggle is ideological and not material.
>>2924702Marxists are as religious as Christians by a matter of disposition.
Low openness is seen by the endless censorship on this website.
>>2924716>In countries where communists come to power, they should aim to subordinate and co-opt religious institutions rather than suppress them outright (e.g. the contemporary Chinese approach). Even better, they should actively cultivate and promote pro-communist interpretations of religion.these institutions only serve to rule over humanity, not to emancipate them, if you want to simply reform them instead of doing away with them, you are not a comrade
>>2924723>image of christian "communist" feudal mastercase in point
no gods, no masters, simple as :)
>>2924727>these institutions only serve to rule over humanity, not to emancipate themThat statement is directly at odds with historical experience. Religion has been the ideological expression of numerous emancipatory movements throughout history including early (English) liberalism, abolitionism and Black liberation, liberation theology, and various anti-colonial movements. Once again, religion only has real world significance when animated by class forces. The materialist position is to analyze these forces, not just their expressions.
>>2924727Somebody call Captain Sinbad!This leftcom just attacked his favorite feudal master!
He needs to restore his master's honor and preach the commodity form as being unavoidable under Communism!
>>2924727>no gods, no mastersYou're an idealist, as I repeat.
You think "beliefs" orient the world.
>>2924728idgi
Isn't it reactionary propanda to say that the Bolsheviks massacred Christians? I looked into it once and it was nonsense.
>>2924732They didn't kill enough christcucks. Piteşti prison for all theocucks. If you don't want to destroy every magical thinking religious retard, you are not a communist. You are a liberal.
I think Engels somewhere opines that private belief is of no concern. Anyway if you can't figure out elementary ideas like men created god and not the other way around you're probably gonna struggle with more complex economic issues like the value form. Also religious belief is the starting point for belief in kings and cults and all sorts of rubbish.
>>2924737Why would I want to murder someone for ideas in their head?
Notice how you are sounding like religious zealot.
Calm down.
>>2924738Are you saying that all atheists are smarter than all religious people?
>>2924730>Religion has been the ideological expression of numerous emancipatory movements throughout history including early (English) liberalism, abolitionism and Black liberation, liberation theology, and various anti-colonial movements. is any of that about classless society? no? then its not about the emancipation of humanity, just another footnote in the history of the state perfecting itself, you can join them if you want, I'm not interested
>>2924739Because their shitty ideas get people enslaved to capitalism. You're a liberal if you want to leave religions alone. You're probably an anti-vaccine chud as well, got to let stupid faggots take their horse dewormer. I'm leaving this cesspit. Enjoy debating magical bullshit with the other "communists".
>>2924745Doing drugs isn't any less useful than reading 100 books of theory and still doing nothing, and at least it's more fun
>>2924744>Because their shitty ideas get people enslaved to capitalismWas Jesus pro-capitalism?
Was Muhammad pro-capitalism?
Was Buddha pro-capitalism?
Etc.
Notice how you are attributing cause to the ideas; this is idealism.
What's worse is that in the connective chain from text to action, there is a missing link, since Jesus of course was a proto-Communist, and the early Christians were models of the later movement. Engels (1894):
<The history of early Christianity has notable points of resemblance with the modern working-class movement […] Both Christianity and the workers’ socialism preach forthcoming salvation from bondage and misery; Christianity places this salvation in a life beyond, after death, in heaven; socialism places it in this world, in a transformation of society.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/Thus, where do these ideas come from? Not "religion" per se, but the ruling class by proxy. We may plainly read Marx upon this point (1867):
<The English Established Church, e.g., will more readily pardon an attack on 38 of its 39 articles than on 1/39 of its income. Now-a-days atheism is culpa levis [a relatively slight sin, c.f. mortal sin], as compared with criticism of existing property relations.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/p1.htmHere, the Church turns away from scripture towards the world.
So then, to be materialist, you must see the internal contradiction.
Contrarily, you are supposing non-contradiction between them.
>>2924745enjoy reinventing class society but marxistly I guess
>>2924732>You think "beliefs" orient the worldno, I think material interests do, and religious institutions serve the interests of those at the top of class society, see the red tsar you posted warming up to the church when he decided to give up on communism and replace it with nationalism
>>2924749>Here, the Church turns away from scripture towards the world.Something interesting to note is that there is an increasing tendency among mainline churches to regard the collapse of the church-state integration over the course of the 19th and 20th centuries to be a good thing. They regard the separation of church and state as important not for the benefit of keeping the state untainted by religion, but keeping religion untainted by state power.
>>2924745>a useful idiot for reaction but enough about the USSR creating Israel under christian liberator communist Stalin
>>2924764>USSR creating IsraelDamn thats crazy. Then what happened?
>>2924754If someone has a private religious belief, how does this threaten society?
That is the fundamental dispute.
>>2924755I think it's just blind liberalism to be a religious secularist. The earliest example I can think of is John Milton, who sought to reform marriage laws by desacralising it as a civil partnership. The founding fathers were nominally Christian, but actually non-religious or heretics. There is the niche argument that Jesus separated the Church from Caesar, but it's also written that Jesus will rule the nations with an iron rod. Theocracy is the rule for any system. A Marxist appoints Marxist bishops to their positions of power, and heretics are excommunicated, etc. Marx does however see an internal contradiction; that a secular state can still produce a theocratic civil society, proving that the state of alienation is not just formal, but in the immediate content of life - for example, many turn to religion from personal suffering. Marx (1843):
<We no longer regard religion as the cause, but only as the manifestation of secular narrowness […] We do not assert that they must overcome their religious narrowness in order to get rid of their secular restrictions, we assert that they will overcome their religious narrowness once they get rid of their secular restrictions […] political emancipation from religion leaves religion in existence […] the universal secular contradiction between the political state and civil society […] political emancipation itself is not human emancipationhttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/ >>2924765>Then what happened?the USSR was dissolved a few decades later by the bureaucracy Stalin the saint erected
another victory for christian liberators
>>2924710what is this pic
>>2924767Yeah you forgot the part where the entire Palestinian and Arab resistance movement was sustained by Soviet arms and funding.
>>2924775>wasexactly
Israel still exists tho, so I guess thats their biggest footprint on the world right now, it sucks doesnt it?
>>2924777What sucks is that the USSR is no longer around to arm the Palestinians. Pretty ironic that you cheer for its collapse while complaining about Israel.
>>2924781>What sucks is that the USSR is no longer aroundtake it to the bureaucrats that dissolved it, not me
>you cheer for its collapsehow could I cheer for the collapse of a state that dissolved itself before I was even born? take your cold war larp goggles off
>>2924800>take it to the bureaucrats that dissolved itBetter to exist, do immense good, and then be dissolved then to never exist or accomplish anything at all.
>>2924835Well said.
I find it ironic how Gagarin was secretly a Christian. It's like God played this very dialectical prank where the first man in space is both a prole member of the communist party and an orthodox christian.
>>2924771Stalin's comments are the funniest considering he was that one that recreated the modern iteration of the russian orthodox church. Trump is now biden after criticizing him so much so this is God's way to playing dialectics.
>>2924731Stalin massa good, Stalin massa and church say I have to produce commodities, Stalin massa make line go up to develop israeli national liberation, he real communist, me pray to God everyday so he protect Stalin massa soul in heaven, you atheist CIA anarkiddie :)
If God was real we would have to kill them
>>2924835>Better to exist, do immense good, and then be dissolved then to never exist or accomplish anything at all.I agree, but this applies to many things, for example, the american empire, but not because of that I want a second american empire, the USSR had its moments for sure, specially early on, but I dont want the same nationalist deviation again
>>2924771>>2924985I have zero problem saying that Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and others were all wrong about religion and that history had proven this. Even the cited examples simply criticize specific expressions of organized religion that were animated by bourgeois or feudal class forces. They don't engage with the point I'm making, which is that religion can be animated by proletarian, peasant, or other progressive forces and that there are numerous concrete examples.
>>2924991>I have zero problem saying that Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and others were all wrong about religion and that history had proven this.Well, I appreciate your honesty in this case.
it doesn't matter what class appears to be or is imagined to be "animating" religious idealism. It is especially irrelevant since those particular forms of idealism are not some new "proletarian religion" created in a vacuum out of pure class consciousness and revolutionary optimism, but modifications of inherited religions, including abrahamic, vedic, and dharmic religions, which contain built into their doctrines explicit apologetics for slavery, serfdom, caste, genocide, patriarchy, etc.
If some particular group of revolutionary proletarians is religious, it can only be to their direct detriment, since it muddles their thinking. Even when it is thought that religion makes one less "afraid to die" in battle, that is a farce, because nothing can be more harmless than the Atheist's oblivion, while the Abrahamic God punishes rebellion against one's masters with eternal hellfire.
>religion can be animated by proletarian, peasant, or other progressive forces and that there are numerous concrete examples.Religion confuses their struggle, it does not enhance it. It conflates their struggle against the ruling class with obedience to the master of the universe. Instead of saying to the ruling class "We no longer believe any of the bullshit you filled our heads with, including religion" it says to them "Actually we are perfect representatives of the universal slave owner, and you have gone astray with satanic rebellion, now the universal slave owner has sent us to punish you and re-establish the natural order of things." If you internalize religion as your animating principle, rather than class struggle, you go from a revolutionary force meant to change society into a new form of society, into a reactionary force meant to re-establish an imagined religious golden age from the past.
One more thing… can class struggle and religion truly be "equal" principles for a religious proletariat to operate on? Won't religion tend to win out, since a religious person believes that their fidelity to religion has eternal consequences for their immortal soul, while class struggle is only a finite, material struggle of lesser consequence? If the two seem to compete at any moment, the clear incentive, if they truly believe in the idealist claims of religion, is to pick religion over class struggle.
>>2924991>I have zero problem saying that Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and others were all wrong about religion and that history had proven this.Every based Communist sometimes has to say that the Prophets of Communism were wrong on some things and correct on others. Otherwise it's just another religion. Social practice is what defines correctness.
>>2925338>not created in a vacuum out of pure class consciousness and revolutionary optimism, but modifications of inherited religionsReligions themselves were modified by other religions and philosophies. Goes back to the argument about how objective morality is a dialectical phenomenon whereby attempts to find absolute truth upon failure are recreated in some new form as opposed to constant moral relativism which if internalized, is unable to achieve anything of substance or social organization. When you study how religions evolve you will see tension between new dogma and old dogma and various ways on how these are reconciled. Even devout Christians might not agree with the Old Testament but they sort of grandfather it in by appealing to different times, dispensations etc. A lot of religious thinking is not even based on the books, but on vibes and that introduces a whole lot of interesting collisions. What historical Communism should have done is a continuation of Messianism and just incorporated Abrahamic religions into some New Jerusalem Revelation eschatology. But that would require intelligent theological maneuvering that is rare in leftist circles because the psychological profile of typical leftists is very idealistic. A materialist for example would even if they are an Atheist, push some form of communist-conducive religious thinking if the public is inherently religious.
>If some particular group of revolutionary proletarians is religious, it can only be to their direct detriment, since it muddles their thinking.>Religion confuses their struggle, it does not enhance it. Historical communist practice has shown that sincere religious people not opposed to communist rule indeed are useful to building socialism because they have a mindset that equates fulfilling the plan as fulfilling God's requirements for example. Because their religion already has a proto-communist orientation, they avoid nihilism and their faith animates their activities. They don't necessarily agree with everything ordered by the party, but those things they do agree on, they do diligently. If anything, atheism killed communism because it removed the magic teleological component that inspires people, who in turn switched from opium of the masses to alcohol of the masses.
>nothing can be more harmless than the Atheist's oblivion, while the Abrahamic God punishes rebellion against one's masters with eternal hellfire.Religious people in that state don't think they go to hell. Also, not every religion has the same infatuation with hell like Catholicism does. See you in Valhalla brother.
>It conflates their struggle against the ruling class with obedience to the master of the universe.Based.
>Instead of saying to the ruling class "We no longer believe any of the bullshit you filled our heads with, including religion" it says to them "Actually we are perfect representatives of the universal slave owner, and you have gone astray with satanic rebellion, now the universal slave owner has sent us to punish you and re-establish the natural order of things."Ultra Based.
>If you internalize religion as your animating principle, rather than class struggle, you go from a revolutionary force meant to change society into a new form of society, into a reactionary force meant to re-establish an imagined religious golden age from the past.Why am I supposed to find this cringe when it's super based and unfathomably dialectical?
>Won't religion tend to win out, since a religious person believes that their fidelity to religion has eternal consequences for their immortal soul, while class struggle is only a finite, material struggle of lesser consequence? Because class struggle is a nebulous concept requiring constant thinking and bookworming while religion is simple cause and effect taught from infancy. If you are a smart communist, you merge the two and maintain strategic ideological/theological flexibility.
Case in point, I am not a "religious" person, but I understand its political usefulness. Even if it's all vibes based, sometimes you do feel inspired by some ephemeral supernatural link when things go really good.
>>2925386>Case in point, I am not a "religious" person, but I understand its political usefulness.Yes, everyone wannabe social reformer sees religion as useful social technology, then they become shocked and disgusted when people ACTUALLY want you to do what the clerics say.
>>2924538>someone personally thinks god started the big bang…That's disgusting but not against our world view.
>>2925386It's always interesting when someone responds to me using a meme I made while disagreeing with me. (in this case, it's the one with the spurdo demiurge)
Not that this detracts from the qualities of what you are saying. Though I am surprised to see you responding and not sabocat.
You actually say a lot of things I agree with but they are separate points from each other so I will try to reply to each separately.
>Religions themselves were modified by other religions and philosophies. This is of course true.
>Goes back to the argument about how objective morality is a dialectical phenomenon whereby attempts to find absolute truth upon failure are recreated in some new form as opposed to constant moral relativism which if internalized, is unable to achieve anything of substance or social organization. Yes.
>When you study how religions evolve you will see tension between new dogma and old dogma and various ways on how these are reconciled. Makes sense.
>Even devout Christians might not agree with the Old Testament but they sort of grandfather it in by appealing to different times, dispensations etc. True.
>A lot of religious thinking is not even based on the books, but on vibes and that introduces a whole lot of interesting collisions. Not on books or vibes but those pesky material conditions.
>What historical Communism should have done is a continuation of Messianism and just incorporated Abrahamic religions into some New Jerusalem Revelation eschatology. Not sure how this diagnosis follows from your previous premises.
>But that would require intelligent theological maneuvering that is rare in leftist circles Well it's seen as opportunism. Machiavelli whose name has become synonym for scheming remarked in The Prince that it is absolutely necessary for a political leader to "appear" religious (he chose "appear" as opposed to "be" for reasons which become obvious since the rest of his book is drenched in anecdotes about brutal realpolitik and backstabbing which overrides the simplicity of religious morality)
>because the psychological profile of typical leftists is very idealistic. A materialist for example would even if they are an Atheist, push some form of communist-conducive religious thinking if the public is inherently religious.I think it is more than idealism. I think there is an addiction (and I am guilty of this) to not want to "water down" what we think is the truth in the name of swelling our ranks. Of course Machiavelli would instruct us to swell our ranks with the manipulable and faithful, by appealing to their cognitive and religious biases, and to use them as meat shields and laborers… but doesn't that just reinvent class society from first principles?0
>Historical communist practice has shown that sincere religious people not opposed to communist rule indeed are useful to building socialism because they have a mindset that equates fulfilling the plan as fulfilling God's requirements for example. But how do you move past the potential for this to devolve into vulgar opportunism, Machiavellian manipualtion of the masses, and reinvention of class society from first principles?
>Because their religion already has a proto-communist orientation,In my country the religious can be either quite reactionary or quite revolutionary in their sentiments, but most are neither. Most are simply trying to stay away from the fan so they don't get smeared with the shit that tends to hit it.
>they avoid nihilism and their faith animates their activities. But eschatology shows that faith can devolve into fatalism just as easily as it can evolve into a motivating factor. Why, after all, try to change the sinful material world when you can just obey your master with fear and trembling, awaiting the delights of heaven as your reward for your earthly obedience to the unfair? Why take up the sword when you are instructed to turn the other cheek? Why kill Caesar when you are instructed to render unto Caesar what is his?
>They don't necessarily agree with everything ordered by the party, but those things they do agree on, they do diligently. Only up until a certain point.
>If anything, atheism killed communism This I definitely disagree with. On the one hand I am supposed to believe that theists are infinitely flexible and willing to obey the Atheistic Communists while at the same time the Atheistic Communists are so bigoted and undiplomatic towards religion that they are impossible to work with.
>because it removed the magic teleological component that inspires people, I doubt everyone is inspired by magic and teleology but carry on friend.
>who in turn switched from opium of the masses to alcohol of the masses.As someone who has lived with alcoholics and seen how it can turn them stupid, weak, diabetic, obnoxious, fat, I am not so sure I appreciate the metaphor.
>>2925977(side note I also saw this post and wanted to reply that neither literal poison in the form of alcohol and drugs nor mental poison in the form of reactionary ideology is helpful to the proletariat. If this makes me anti-fun, so be it)
>Religious people in that state don't think they go to hell. Also, not every religion has the same infatuation with hell like Catholicism does. See you in Valhalla brother.well the religious leaders of any real political movement are usually atheists using religion opportunistically, as you and Machiavelli instruct.
>Based.>Ultra Based.>Why am I supposed to find this cringe when it's super based and unfathomably dialectical?to each their own. personally i don't want to live in some kind futuristic neo-feudal theocracy that reinvents class society from first principles by transforming revolutionary sentiment into reactionary sentiment but if you say "based" when you hear that maybe that is just your politics.
>Because class struggle is a nebulous concept requiring constant thinking and bookwormingI hardly think so. It is pretty simple to understand that porky owns things and you don't so that's why you have to work for him. It's actually requires more mental gymnastics to turn all this into a tool for religion to make a comeback in an increasingly secular society.
>while religion is simple cause and effect taught from infancy. I wasn't raised religious and increasingly people aren't. Maybe this is a matter of perspective.
>If you are a smart communist, you merge the two and maintain strategic ideological/theological flexibility. Actually if the religious are smart they will stop believing in fairy tales invented by Brahmin and Kshatriyah to control Sudras and Dalit.
>>2924739Not sure if it's about being smart. You could have 200 autism score and believe in flat Earth. There are accredited geologists who are young Earth creationists.
>>2926017intelligence is very specialized. you can have a well rounded person who's a "midwit" when it comes to just about everything, and you can have a "genius" who can't tie their shoes and believes in ghosts.
>>2924991>Even the cited examples simply criticize specific expressions of organized religion that were animated by bourgeois or feudal class forces.as opposed to our churches, mosques, and synagogues of today, which are owned (?!) and operated by the proletariat, for the proletariat, and explicitly exclude reactionary classes and forbid any kind of interclass congregation…. oh wait.
>>2924641>>2924665>>2924717notice how the atheist neckbeards all resort to whataboutism and none of them actually deny the accusation nor explicitly reject the notion that thought should be controlled
i have noticed several trends in neo-reactionary thought
- the people are dumb and need religion instead of complicatded theory
- we should do everything we can to make the people dumb and keep them dumb so the first point remains true
- everyone who wants to stop us from doing this is just a fedora tipping fun hater
>>2926017Anon's point was that intelligence is based on concepts.
If you grasp "elementary" concepts you graduate to the complex.
It implies that all atheists are more intelligent than theists.
I don't think that, since cognitive dissonance is present in most people.
>>2926022Chris Langan is a good example.
He has the world's highest I.Q. but is also superstitious.
>>2924538You can be a communist and a theist. Marxism not so much. His dialectic goes from the material to the immaterial (the realm of ideas, the divine). If you want to try to make some sort of synthesis be my guest no one is stopping you.
You could also just be a Christian Socialist like Tolstoy or Gloria Day no one is stopping you from doing that.
>>2927007that dude is literally a scammer, his I.Q "record" is fake
>>2926336It makes so much sense that you're also religious. I crown you king retard of /leftypol/
>>2926984Sorry for chopping up your post in the order I wanted to respond. I just put t the things that interested me most at the top.
> And for that matter, why are Christians not concerned with recreating Jesus's magical abilities? If Jesus really did magic, and your whole worldview is believing he did magic, shouldn't we be able to recreate even one of his acts of magic, like he himself said we should be able to do?The Christian believes Jesus could perform miracles because God allowed it. There's no need to "recreate" any magic in a lab because, for the Christian, miracles are God basically deciding when and where to break the laws of physics. For you to go into the lab and to be like "well I can't reproduce the miracle… debunked!" is to ignore the "fact" (according to them) that God ordains when miracles can and cannot happen, not material conditions in a lab. This is because, for them, the universe is something that only operates on predictable principles like physical law because God wills it. Everything stems from God's will. This is the difference between idealism and materialism. For extreme idealists like religious people, the universe is literally the product of the creator's will, and the creator's will requires no explanation, in their view, because it has always existed. In the materialist view, the universe is this dead thing that evolved on its own without a creator needing to interfere, eventually resulting in life, and then life eventually evolved complex emotional and intellectual faculties, which it used to create ideology and technology. For the materialist, man creates God as an explanation for the universe. For the idealist, God creates man and the universe, and all the physical laws within it, and cane break those laws whenever he wants, including physical laws, resulting in miracles. So your quest to reproduce miracles is naive because for religious people, miracles are God breaking the laws of physics in a way humans cannot as his way of saying "peekaboo, I see you."
>You know, maybe instead of attacking religion directly, maybe the solution is just educating people in the basic facts about the universe that we understand?You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, and that goes both ways. If you tell a person about evolution or plate tectonics and they tell you to shut the fuck up and read genesis instead, what good does that do? They want to lead you to religion, but you don't want that. You want to lead them to science, but they don't want that.
> I actually believe in a spiritual view that there may be more to this reality and experience than what we can observe on a surface levelThere's nothing
necessarily spiritual about that. There's always more to discover and that has driven science forward as well. Spiritual people don't monopolize this mindset. Even a materialist who doesn't believe in ghosts or souls can accept basic premises like "maybe there is things we haven't discovered yet." There's a big difference between "maybe there is things we haven't discovered yet" and "therefore those things are real and you shouldn't make fun of people who believe in them without evidence."
Religion is an imperialism of the olden days
>>2927455not a fan of religion but that is neither a coherent theory of religion or of imperialism. religion is superstructural and imperialism is basic.
>>2926984>You know, maybe instead of attacking religion directly, maybe the solution is just educating people in the basic facts about the universe that we understand?that's even more obnoxious and insulting than attacking people directly is, this paternalistic sit them down on your knee and say "okay here's the deal sport" and give them a father-son heart to heart talk explaining how the world works. how about you just fucking talk to people like equals, put your ego and your petty grievances aside and be humble and patient and open-minded and try to find common ground, you know, like a person? if you actually fucking talk to people and don't get so hung up on their customs and traditions and terminology, quite often you'll find that their beliefs and their values are not actually that different from your own, they just use a different language to understand and describe the world than you do. what they call "god" you might call mother nature or the subconscious, what they call "prayer" you might call introspection and personal intuition, whatever prejudices or ignorant views they may have about certain people that they attribute to their faith may really just be the result of their own limited experience - they've probably never met gay people or talked to them or gotten to know them so they are operating entirely on what they read in some book or heard from the small circle of people they interact with because they have no real-world experience to draw from, that doesn't make them a vicious evil hatemonger it just makes them a human being with human limitations like everyone else. obviously there are people whom you can never find any common ground with no matter how hard you try because they're just totally dug in and brainwashed and have sealed their minds off behind a brick wall and just go through life following a rigid code showing no flex whatsoever, but most people are not that closed off and untouchable especially when they are interacting with people face to face in the real world without all the abstraction and curation and invulnerability that digital communication provides, most people are very sensitive and impressionable and curious about the world and if you approach them the right way so as not to trigger their fight-or-flight reflex response that overrides these natural tendencies you can connect with them and establish communication and even bonds of friendship and solidarity with people who have radically different views than your own, but you can't do that if you are also an egotistical immature baby who can't handle swallowing your pride and stepping out of your comfort zone every now and then.
>>2924538>why do people think materialism and supernatural beliefs are incompatiblehmmm
>>2924538Why does the left insist on putting the cart before the horse? Just do class politics, which are in desperate need. And enemies will declare themselves as your political project grows. Then you crush them on that basis, with that power.
Instead of being powerless and representing nobody. While obsessing like a political alchemist, looking for the magical shortcut to transmute liberalism into communism in 19th century literature.
>>2927499>that's even more obnoxious and insulting than attacking people directly is, this paternalistic sit them down on your knee and say "okay here's the deal sport" and give them a father-son heart to heart talk explaining how the world works. how about you just fucking talk to people like equalshow about religious people do that?
"umm i'll pray for you sweaty… maybe one day you'll accept christ as your lord and savior"
"if you keep down this path god is gonna burn you in hell forever…"
>>2927598oh okay you're right, you should do that then, because religious people do it.
>>2927641The Roman Empire was "feudalist"?
>>2927649Depends on what era of Roman empire we are talking about. Later christian Roman empire had a serf system.
>>2927439I support the Red Guards but thats faulty logic its attacking the source.
>>2927606>heres more shit u never saidbro only has 1 attack
ok jannies now sage this for bait like you did with mine
Christianity at its origin was one of most collectivist belief systems especially at its time. Obviously along the way multiple things bent and now you have calvinists idealizing material wealth and evangelicals tithing to Israel.
>>2927439Based proletarian science.
>>2928920I'd think a collectivist would adhere to prevailing social norms instead of joining some weird foreign cult.
>>2928920>Christianity at its origin was one of most collectivist belief systems especially at its time.he actually believes the meme
Why do you believe in God? What’s the practical advantage over believing in an uncaring universe? Why surrender what little agency you do have?
>>2929414Believers can offer you a thousand rationalizations but it all boils down to coping with mortality.
>>2929433I don’t understand the need to cope with something that’s both inevitable and happens to everything and everyone, maybe that’s the autism talking
>>2929439Death scare people so they deny death in order not to be afraid. Simple as.
>>2929444That’s because they’re infantile and can’t think beyond themselves or a bigger picture for two minutes. That’s not to encourage anyone to shoot tranqdope or jump into traffic bur you can’t let fear make your decisions.
>>2929414Lots of practical advantages through church networks, friends, jobs, marriage opportunities, feeling good by being part of a community, organizing charity (which is what that Houdini guy is constantly posting about). What's the practical advantage of being a socialist outcast? I mean some people can grift on it, but for regular rank and file?
>>2929414> Why surrender what little agency you do have?to be fair religoids believe in free will so technically they imagine they have more agency and aren't just a bunch of neurons firing according to physical law, but that they actually have a special little immaterial ghosty soul that pilots their body from outside reality like a flesh mech
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