Why do the people that identify with these ideas always separte themselves and accuse "western leftism" when every internet forum and radical political party talks about supporting Iran, Russia and Houthis? And unequal exchange and productive forces in global south nations? When could we say that the "failure of western leftism" is on them?
164 posts and 39 image replies omitted.>>2927101>Literally nobody in this thread said thisYou won't say it because it's obviously not true, but it's a necessary assumption you need to make in order for your position to make any sense whatsoever. If socialism will improve the lives of people everywhere then the notion that first world workers have an interest in preserving imperialism falls apart. So instead you just hint at and imply it and then retreat when confronted. It's a clear motte and bailey.
>You guys can't argue against the dataWhat data would that be?
>The First World is responsible for this btw.You guys are like Rudyard Kipling in reverse. You see third worlders as half angel and half child.
>>2927083>>2927112Reminder that this guy willingly signed up to slaughter Afghans and Iraqis in the world on terror and vehemently shilled fellow Nazi Graham Platner until he committed the sin of violating one of the herrenvolk’s women
>>2927101Fr dude, why do these assholes always project their dumb personalization into this discussion? They just cannot stick to the argument and instead have to dismiss it by coming up with all kinds of bullshit about the personality of their opponent. "misanthrope", "noble savage views", etc. And then they pat each other on the back as if they've said anything lol
All we've talked about is economic incentives, wages, purchasing power, etc. But these dumbasses keep bringing it back "how you view people in the third world", as if that's at all relevant
I just can't fathom how retarded you have to be to do this shit, but I see it all the time on here and elsewhere
>>2927117Saboanon has confirmed to have been in the canadian military, he's literally a veteran of an imperialist military
>>2927116>You're misreading the data, because uhhh you just are ok!!??Great argument
>>2927121Please stick to the discussion at hand instead of talking about some made up discussion in the past thanks!
>>2927115>Reminder that this guy willingly signed up to slaughter Afghans and IraqisReminder that my country wasn't participating in either of those conflicts at the time and I joined a reserve unit and never left my home province.
>vehemently shilled fellow Nazi Graham PlatnerThings you made up. I explicitly said not to support him for the unforgivable sin of being a Democrat lmao.
Anyways, it's clear you're just seething because you're being exposed as the peddler of bourgeois lies that you are. All socialists know that Malthusianism is complete nonsense, but it's the core of third worldist thinking.
>>2927124It’s the same discussion in the same community likely involving the same people, no shit I’m going to draw on past interactions to judge how people are behaving.
>>2927083Also, pretending like the consciousness between the South and North are symmetrical is incredibly disingenuous. The Southern proletariat directly experiences the destabilization, resource extraction, debt burdens, and unequal trade policies imposed by the North. Whether the South is able to effectuate that consciousness into class action is a separate matter entirely. Nobody is claiming to be campists for the Third World, we're simply acknowledging the asymmetry and it clearly makes you uncomfortable.
>>2927125What do you think is incorrect? That migration patterns across the world orient towards western/imperialist countries? That this is not incidental, but a result of imperialism? That wages, purchasing power, etc are higher in these countries and that proles move there because of these direct benefits it provides them?
What is so wrong or objectionable about these claims?
>>2927134They make treatlers feel bad because you keep bringing up the inconvenient fact that they directly participate in the rape and exploitation of the periphery and that they might actually have to work for a living under a DotP. This is literally a Nazism and a twanz genocide and if you disagree you’re a heckin redfash dengist zigger
>>2927133>Whether the South is able to effectuate that consciousness into class action is a separate matter entirely.No it isn't, it's the core issue. The entire third worldist thesis is that the first world has no revolutionary proletariat because they do not experience the necessary conditions. This is used to explain their reactionary tendencies (chauvinism, nationalism, failure to exercise political independence from the bourgeoisie, failure to progress beyond social democracy, etc). However, since those exact same tendencies predominate among the contemporary third world proletariat, there must be an alternative explanation.
>>2927129But everyone here, except saboanon the veteran is anonymous, so your assumptions on people's supposed past behavior are just that, assumptions. It just comes down to you seething about not being able to win this argument, so instead you ramble about some supposed personality flaws
>>2927134>What is so wrong or objectionable about these claims?Nothing, it's the conclusions you a drawing from those facts that are wrong.
>>2927140What conclusions? I didn't make any "conclusion" beyond what I stated in my posts. That these facts are major obstacles to international solidarity and must be acknowledged rather than ignored, which is what you and the other retards itt seem to want to do
>>2927126Why should anyone believe your current claims when you saw a genocidal military force worse than Nazi Germany and your first thought was to sign up for it? Even if you didn’t directly participate in the slaughter you aided those who did and would have had no objections to doing so because you’ve already established that the lives of those outside the Garden don’t matter
>>2927134See, that’s the motte and bailey you people pull.
I’ll let you figure out what it is.
>>2927118People are criticizing your outlook rather than the facts. If you say "The First World is responsible for this and that" or "Workers in the Global North benefit from imperialism" they might be true in a sense or supported by data, but without further elaboration this turns the conflict of classes into the conflict of nations. Meaning, a worker in St. Louis might benefit from cheap fuel if the US invaded a foreign country and succeeded, but he still works for a living, which is what Marxism is concerned with. I doubt anybody would deny that an Indonesian miner has it worse than an office worker or even a cashier in Germany. But that's dependent on economic development and the strength of the organization of certain factions of the bourgeoisie and their representatives. In the North, you may get a gilded chain, but you are chained nevertheless.
>>2927144Just state it you fucking retard. Don't hide behind this "uhhh you're doing le motte/bailey" meme. What about what I've said is incorrect or a "misreading" of the data exactly?
>>2927145Oh no, the poooor Westoid worker. All he has is a robust safety net, boundless reserves in stocks and savings directly tied to the success of the Reich, and endless consumer slop made from the lifeblood of the untermensch to distract himself. How horrible! I bet he can’t even afford the new iPhone or see the new theatrical equivalent of Mein Kampf on opening week!
>>2927147>the basic flaw in my argument is le memeJesus, you people are such fucking children. Anyway,
>>2927145>>2927140>>2927138Already said it best. You people make mistakes in reasoning in what you extrapolate from the facts, the facts themselves are not in question. And when you get questioned you people flip out and scream “EVERYONE IS TREATLER REEEEEEE.” People get mad at you because you’re exhausting to engage
>>2927148See? Right there, you’re being a child making up people to be mad at. You think everyone lives like in Hollywood propaganda
>>2927151Not the same person you’re currently flailing against, but it’s always amusing your type thinks it’s unique that the imperial periphery hates your guts
>>2927145>People are criticizing your outlook rather than the factsI can't even with this man. It's so fucking retarded. Who gives a shit about my supposed "outlook" which you don't even know anything about. I am correct and all this coping won't change that
It is you who projects this moralistic framework about the conflict of nations or whatever onto the discussion, not something I brought up. I am simply concerned with the facts as they are, not whatever lame weak-willed interpretation you want to make of them
I never said that workers in the north are not still chained, but denying the reality of the benefits they receive, even as chained workers, gets us nowhere.
>>2927112>You won't say it because it's obviously not true, but it's a necessary assumption you need to make in order for your position to make any sense whatsoever.Lmao, tripling down on your strawman instead of admitting you're deliberately misrepresenting people.
>If socialism will improve the lives of people everywhere then the notion that first world workers have an interest in preserving imperialism falls apart. Too crude and ignores material reality. Imperialism gives Northern workers cheaper goods, higher wages, welfare, jobs in the imperial apparatus (like your CAF dumbass), and a sense of national superiority. Defending imperialism can still be the short-term rational choice, especially given transition costs (reduced consumption and lifestyle changes is key here), uncertainty, and false consciousness.
>What data would that be?Scroll up. Your constant strawmanning shows you're not arguing in good faith.
>You see third worlders as half angel and half child.Another strawman, rofl.
>>2927138>No it isn't, it's the core issue.No, because consciousness does not automatically translate into class action. I was pushing back against your claim that the Third and First Worlds have the same levels of consciousness.
>>2927126>Reminder that my country wasn't participating in either of those conflicts at the time and I joined a reserve unit and never left my home province.HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Foad, criminal.
>>2927149>Jesus, you people are such fucking children. Anyway, You said my interpretation of the data was flawed, I listed my interpretation of the data and asked in what way, you then brought up this retarded meme about baileys, as if that is at all relevant. My interpretation of the data is not some bailey or motte or whatever, it is all I have brought into the discussion, and even that was met with heavy resistance and accusations by you of being "incorrect interpretations", which you cannot even specify at all, despite being entirely accurate.
>You people make mistakes in reasoning in what you extrapolate from the facts, the facts themselves are not in question.We haven't even gotten to that because people itt have simply been ignoring or denying the facts up until now, when they are suddenly "not in question". Literally Im trying to get you to explain how I'm misinterpreting them and you just wont do it. All everyone has done here is question the data I've brought up and hurl personal insults at me, while acting exasperated about some imagined conclusion I supposedly have drawn from this data
>People get mad at you because you’re exhausting to engageI get mad at you because despite being wrong on every point, you still act as if you somehow have a better conclusion than the one you imagine me to have. Which you don't even know
>>2927159Exactly. They need to hate their oppressors more. This kowtowing is fucking pathetic.
>>2927159Wowie wow wow, AI slop made to appeal to western leftists whose moral crusade for Palestinians amounted to denouncing AES states and having orgies on college campuses. Guess that means it’s okay for the herrenvolk to horde their treats!
>>2927158>Imperialism gives Northern workers cheaper goods, higher wages, welfare, jobs in the imperial apparatus (like your CAF dumbass), and a sense of national superiority.So why doesn't that apply to workers in countries with moderate levels of development? Does a Brazilian worker benefit from imperialism because his country occupies a superior position in the imperial hierarchy relative to a Congolese worker?
>I was pushing back against your claim that the Third and First Worlds have the same levels of consciousness.They don't though. They demonstrate the exact same tendencies towards chauvinism and nationalism, and they constantly allow these to obstruct clear eyed understanding of their class interests. They even produce labour aristocratic tendencies, and the most successful third world communist parties today operate essentially in the same way as the revisionist communist parties of postwar Europe.
>>2927168>muh sexI hate islamists
>>2927167>They need to hate their oppressors more.I agree, Palestine has capitalists
>>2927172I can smell your semen caked clothes from here
>>2927173Yeah, they're called israelis
>>2927175Soon your mother's pussy will be caked with semen
>>2927180Pleas enlighten us as to what your campus orgies and little smashie sessions accomplished. How many Palestinians did you save from genocide from the safety and comfort of your intelligentsia campuses? I’ll wait
>>2927181Exactly 0. Now please explain how many Palestinian lives did you save by shitposting on my Nicaraguan social democrat dating site?
>>2927169>So why doesn't that apply to workers in countries with moderate levels of development?It does. Those countries are semi-periphery: above the periphery, but still below the core. Nobody said the imperial hierarchy is binary, that's yet another misrepresentation by you.
>Does a Brazilian worker benefit from imperialism because his country occupies a superior position in the imperial hierarchy relative to a Congolese worker?Relative to the Congo, yes. Relative to the United States and Western Europe, no.
>They don't though. They demonstrate the exact same tendencies towards chauvinism and nationalism, and they constantly allow these to obstruct clear eyed understanding of their class interests.You're still equivocating consciousness with action. The South has a more immediate and structurally grounded anti-imperialist consciousness because the South has a more direct experience with imperialism. Nobody said that consciousness will directly translate into action.
>>2925758Guys were calling this schizo when it was right on the mark, lmfao.
>>2925859>mp4>pro nazi anti amerikkkawho is this supposed to be for? who is the target audience for this?
>>2927126Shut the FUCK up you IMPERIALIST KKKRACKER. YOU RAPED LIBYANS. YOU RAPED AFGHANS. YOUR COUNTRY DROWNED THE EARTH IN THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT. WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES YOU WILL NOT BE SPARED, TREATLERITE.
>>2927083>That's why there are no communist revolutions happening there either.Burkina Faso and Eritrea literally just happened recently thobeit?
>>2927137but i'm a redfash dengist zigger and I literally think "muh treatlers RAPE EVERYONE by SIMPLY BREATHING" discourse is the stupidest thing of all. if you can't tell the difference between being a do nothing NEET leeching off of unsustainable imperial core coffers and being the proudest US army soldier determined to make the empire stronger then idk what to tell you. if failure to stop crime is the same as being a criminal then the whole world is guilty for not nuking itself.
>>2927241Ok but there is literally an eceleb flagfag in this very thread who confessed to serving in the Canadian imperialist military so that's why a lot of people immediately got mad. No one gets mad at you on here if you're just a minimum wage worker.
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