As a communist, why should I support open borders and immigration? I've read Marx and Lenin and I don't see why it's a good idea to let millions to enter since they're cheap labour for capitalists and in fact the USSR had strict immigration policies, same with China.
I'm not xenophobic or racist at all, in fact I like multiculturalism, I love going out and having dinner in any foreign restaurant and I have friends from all ethnicities, but I just don't agree with letting everyone in. I'm not trolling or ragebaiting, I genuinely want to know.
The future is brown regardless of the mode of production and that's a good thing
racels genocide #soon
>>2928697Your conception of labour pricing is stupid and outdated. Labour prices are global, instead of being forced to pay higher wages at the border capitalists just outsource. Moreover, even in such a world a fall in native wages is offset by a rise in immigrant wages leading to no net effect.
Finally, capitalists have the whip hand in all first world countries. You cannot credibly imagine that wages are set by supply and demand but that normal commodities don't function in this way.
>>2928697>why should I support open borders and immigrationYou shouldn't. Expanding the reserve army of labor via immigration is a bad thing.
to europoor """leftists""", the "reserve army of labor" refers to anyone who isnt a labour aristocrat LOL
>>2928697>hoxha "ten thousand years">deng "i guess 2050"somebody can't count smh
>>2928697>>2928703it doesn't matter what you "support" or "don't support" or what the gap is between your stated "proletarian" reasons and your actual racist/imperialist reasons for being against "mass migration". why?
- because you live under a bourgeois dictatorship
- the capitalist mode of production prevails
- imperial core fertility rates are low due to the (relative) prevalence of safe abortion, birth control, contraception, and sex education.
- the countries with high birth rates and low wages will continue to export human beings in the form of refugees, migrants, etc. to the countries with low birth rates and high wages, where they will be exploited
- the imperial core will continue to impose crippling sanctions, genocidal wars, austerity, union busting, bombing campaigns, CIA coups, and structural adjustment programs onto the periphery, increasing the number of refugees
- climate change will continue to push people away from the equator, where they will otherwise die of heat stroke
- you will stop none of this not merely because you are powerless, but because you are actually a pawn of the imperial core reactionaries. every dollar, every gun, every word of propaganda given to "strong borders" in the imperial core actually results in an increase in net migration. Why? because the imperial core border guards are reactionary terrorists who work hand in glove with cartels and right wing death squads in the periphery. they exacerbate the flow of desperate people from the periphery to the core. the purpose of your CBP and ICE types, regardless of their stated intentions, is to serve as catchers of incoming slaves, not as a deportation force
- whether you realize it or not you are an ethnonationalist chud who wants to turn the world into a series of ethnic enclaves where proles are cut off from each other and prevented from fleeing unlivable conditions.
- pretending to care for a moment about your supposed ideas of protecting the wages of the imperial core proletariat from the dirty migrants who work for a nickel instead of a dollar… why dont you increase the granularity of this analysis to a level more local than a nation? why should the rurals in low income areas be permitted to move to the cities? why should the people from the small low-GDP cities be permitted to move to the big high-GDP cities? why should people from the poor states and provinces of your country be permitted to move to the rich states and provinces of your country.
you have nothing. and we have this thread every week. i BTFO you losers every time and you either fall silent or resort to fallacies and low cunning.
>>2928712>why should the rurals in low income areas be permitted to move to the cities? why should the people from the small low-GDP cities be permitted to move to the big high-GDP cities? why should people from the poor states and provinces of your country be permitted to move to the rich states and provinces of your country.This actually works in China.
>>2928712OK, nobody denied any of that (except climate change, i.e., the moral panic about CO2, is mostly a hoax).
I still don't support expanding the reserve army of labor via immigration.
>>2928728It's kind of funny because you're more likely to get banned on here for saying stuff about LGBT than you are if you were to just take a steamy dump all over Marxian economics.
>>2928734>It's kind of funny because you're more likely to get banned on here for saying stuff about LGBT than you are if you were to just take a steamy dump all over Marxian economics.And that is the perfect heuristic for determining what a political tendency is all about. What you're *not* allowed to debate.
>>2928727yes of course but the imperial core "strong border chuds" aren't in china, they aren't advocating for hukuo in their own countries, and most of all they aren't in an even nominally socialist country
>>2928734>climate change is le hoaxvery compelling, face the wall
>>2928742>Bans loli pornSee this is what leftypol *doesn't* want people to see
oppressed nations like cuba should have strong borders, strong navies, strong armies, to keep out the chuds and CIA glowies
oppressor nations like america should have weak gorders, weak navies, weak armies, and should be flooded with refugees
it's that simple really. the weak should become strong, and the strong should become weak.
what? that's idealist? well so is asking leftypol "why" you "should" "support" this or that bourgeois border policy!
>>2928756damn you said my memes seethe. very compelling argument. i now support "strong borders" in imperialist countries. a trillion more dollars to global apartheid now!!!!
>>2928767Who said I disagreed with that?
>>2928768Who said that?
>>2928771>Who said I disagreed with that?ok then what do you wanna fight about
>>2928782You should've instead used that Saboflaggot who voluntarily joined the Canadian military.
>>2928785
I meant for the speech bubble, but ok.
>>2928787>>2928786but i am reply to this OP and not the sabo guy who isn't even in this thread. why should some guy who isn't even in this thread be part of the meme?
>>2928788Because I hate that fag more than the average labor aristocrat
>>2928792just filter him, he's not even here. bro i'm talking to someone who isn't him. the meme is meant for OP
>>2928796I know, I was just saying uygha
Marg Bar military veterans and shit
>considers itself to be an anti-capitalist crusader
>dehumanizes poor people as "cheap laborers"
there's not enough cans of raid in the world for you vermin
>>2928807NTA but I consider myself a cheaper laborer. Because everyone is under western capitalism. We're never paid what we're worth and never will be under the current system. It's designed that way.
>>2928811well i still consider myself a human being, and i work every day and i probably get paid even less than you do. how can you expect anything in the world to ever change and respect your wishes if you can't even respect yourself? you'll just fold like laundry and blow wherever the wind takes you with an attitude like that, how can anyone trust you or rely on you, why should anyone even talk to you if you're not even a human being?
>cheap labor is le bad, therefore global apartheid le good
Communists do not support open boarders and mass immigration. No socialist country does that. This is western rad libs and the "communists" that have been psyop'ed
>>2928838>"communists" that have been psyop'edso 99% of communists then
>>2928859Communists in the USSR, China. Cuba, and DPRK do not support mass immigration
>>2928831It's more like I'm self aware of how piggy sees me and how they see others. I consider my labor cheap just like immigrant labor is because we're under the same system. Our labor and humanity has value that they will never see. And I want to starve piggy of it, ideally.
>As a communist
<straight /pol/ rhetoric
<climate change denial
>>2928697all arguments against open borders rely on the falsehood that there are different kinds of humans at the collective level
>>2928915Most lithium will be recycled. And then if that's not enough, there's sodium-ion.
>>2928915>the earth can absorb co2Do you not understand that this has a limited capacity which is why the level of co2 is increasing?
>>2928915republican politicians get paid like billions of dollars to say stuff like this, you're just doing it for free
>>2928734>panic about CO2, is mostly a hoaxunsurprising, the racist is a science illiterate retard
>>2928915Holy shit, you really are fucking stupid as fuck lmao
>>2928943its against my own self interest is the only argument we need.
China does not have open boarders
Cuba does not have open boarders
Vietnam does not have open boarders
the DPRK does not have open boarders
the USSR did not have open boarders
>>2928970*borders dipshit
The Communist argument for open borders is that it would remove all protections for labour aristocrats, standardising the law of value for labour, and so realising the universal condition of the global proletariat. A Social Democrat cares about preserving national wages, but a Communist cares about international revolution. In this way, the Communist and Liberal are much more aligned, while Conservatives and Social Democrats align. In a perverse way, this highlights struggle between capital and labour (Marx effectively seeing Capital as the revolutionary subject in its momentum to break apart social bonds), while the class of labourers cleaves to often-reactionary politics. We may read Lenin on this point, to see where his loyalties lie (1913):
<Capitalism has given rise to a special form of migration of nations […] the capitalists exploit the immigrant workers in the most shameless manner. But only reactionaries can shut their eyes to the progressive significance of this modern migration of nations. Emancipation from the yoke of capital is impossible without the further development of capitalism, and without the class struggle that is based on it. And it is into this struggle that capitalism is drawing the masses of the working people of the whole world, breaking down the musty, fusty habits of local life, breaking down national barriers and prejudices, uniting workers from all countries in huge factories and mines in America, Germany, and so forth.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/oct/29.htmHere, Lenin promotes the advancement of capitalism as a means of its own self-abolition. The sacrifice of "musty" particularisms is seen as necessary in capital's tyranny over the world. Continuing (1902):
<The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness […] The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals. By their social status the founders of modern scientific socialism, Marx and Engels, themselves belonged to the bourgeois intelligentsia.https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/ii.htmWe see that Communism is a product of the bourgeoisie, opposed to the spontaneous organisation of the working classes, by acting above them in a directive manner. So, working class politics is not any form of Communism, but is only the consciousness of various protections. As opposed to this is the Communist, who as Marx writes (1848):
<The Communists are further reproached with desiring to abolish countries and nationality […] National differences and antagonism between peoples are daily more and more vanishing, owing to the development of the bourgeoisiehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htmSo then, Communists are a super-bourgeoisie, we might say.
Communists actively desire to lower wages to a global standard.
>>2928976this is kind of a brilliant post, thanks anon
>>2928943No, it's about protecting national rates of wages.
Where is the material analysis, anon?
>>2928838>Communists do not support open boarders and mass immigrationYes they do.
Are there any Communist parties that don't?
>>2928835>cheap labour is le badIs it good?
>>2928764Why does having refugees make a country "weak"?
>>2928712Why are you acting like the majority of immigration is based in asylum?
The very large majority of global immigration is for study, work and visitation.
>>2928979What a bunch of bullshit, the working class has a wide range of political views
>>2928981Such as?
What are the various working class political parties today?
Or are you talking about individual vibes-based "ideologies"?
>>2928947>t. retard who has never heard of Jevon's paradoxEfficiencies in production typically leads to more consumption. That's why we're consuming more, not less despite becoming more efficient.
Besides, lithium-ion batteries difficult to recycle anyways, so most don't do it. Recycling in general is a meme.
https://theconversation.com/recycling-isnt-enough-the-worlds-plastic-pollution-crisis-is-only-getting-worse-144175>>2928948Even those bourgeois climate scientists admit humans are only responsible for 5 percent of the world's CO2 emissions, and they admit half of that is absorbed by the Earth. You're getting your panties in a bunch over a little more than 2 percent. Degrowth would bring that 2 percent down anyways, which is the actual solution, not this "green" growth or "green" new deal faggot liberals like you want.
>>2928957>>2928959Retard has no argument and thinks I'm RAYCISSS because I said expanding the reserve army of labor is a tool capitalists use to suppress wage (objectively true btw). Lmfao, OK commit suicide assp.
Consider suicide
>>2928952>he thinks in partisan bourgeois politicsLmfao, you need to be raped and killed
>>2928981>>2928984To demonstrate the point:
- The 3 biggest trade unions in the UK officially donate and lobby with the Labour Party.
- The 3 biggest trade unions in the US officially donate and lobby with the Democrat Party.
Both of these are nominally Social-Democratic parties which support higher wages and more welfare over the official opposition, which appeals to the middle class. The parties of the working class are moderate, not radical. Bernie Sanders would have been president.
>>2928986>Even those bourgeois climate scientists admit humans are only responsible for 5 percent of the world's CO2 emissionsLol 5% is a huge number on a global scale dipshit, the carbon cycle isn't magically able to absorb that much extra, which makes it cumulative, only getting worse over time. The co2 capacity of the ocean is saturated, artics and rainforests have become carbon producers, not absorbers. Not to forget the effects of methane. You are literally on par with creationists at this point, that is how absolutely braindead you are, the "muh bourgeois climate scientists" is just the fucking cherry on top, just fucking kill yourself already so some poor guy from latam can take your place you freak.
>>2928697These people are incapable of seeing a perspective different than the one projected to them by hegemonic media and their social circles. From the perspective of the migration origin country, all that labor put into raising a human being is wasted, if not worse - contributing to their enemy's economy and military. It's just that capitalist regimes don't care about their country's economic foundation. Communists, by contrast, always heavily restricted emigration because it only benefits one group, the capitalists in imperialist countries. The Berlin Wall was a thing, ffs.
>>2928701>instead of being forced to pay higher wages at the border capitalists just outsourceExactly. There is no net societal benefit to emigration, these jobs would have moved out of the imperialist countries and benefited the whole society of the imperialized origin country instead. Only very specific people benefit at the expense of everyone else, both at home and at the imperialist migration destination country. Emigration is also bad for political activity because it acts as a pressure release valve for the capitalists. Some of the original founders of the Communist Party of China ended up moving to the United States or elsewhere, it could have been even worse if not for the anti-Chinese movement in America. Imperialists also use the migrant communities as tools against migration origin countries: for instance, the current Moldovan turbocomprador president was only elected because of votes from outside the country.
Outsourcing hollows out the imperialist economic base and builds up productive forces elsewhere while immigration preserves the current state of things. The choice is obvious. Of course, the capitalist state will never go against the interest of the capitalist class, so migration will never actually be curtailed in an economically meaningful way. In reality, anti-immigration rhetoric is just used to clamp down on the few rights migrant workers have. That makes going along with capitalist anti-migration rhetoric tactically inappropriate. That doesn't mean you should go the other direction and repeat liberal talking points. Communists aren't liberals or conservatives. People should be able to live with dignity in their countries instead of signing up themselves and their children to die for Israel if the time comes or supporting the stormtroopers of the empire economically.
>>2928975glad it made you seethe :^)
>>2928978>Yes they do.>Are there any Communist parties that don't?CCP WPK
>>2928990trade unions no longer fight capital they bargain with capital for better conditions under capitalism not socialism. trade unions are reactionary at this point
>>2928998>they bargain with capital for better conditions under capitalism not socialismThat's Lenin's point.
The working class forms unions, but are politically impotent.
If we look at historical working class parties like the Chartists and the Labour Party, they were never socialist, and were always reformist. I would go further to say that the working class is often hostile to any socialist politics, which is why Communism appeals more to students and intellectuals, rather than the proletariat. In practice, the ideal of wage work is mobility up to petty bourgeois tradesmanship, of whom are connoted as "working class" today, like plumbers and electricians, despite being free agents who possess their means of production. It is only from without that Communism develops, so is antagonistic.
let's be frank here, you're not a communist, you're a poseur, a cosplayer. you're like some teenage kid shopping for ideology at hot topic.
>>2928986>Efficiencies in production typically leads to more consumptionLooking at the Malthusian trap, this is relative to population size.
Doubling efficiency in a fixed population doubles available goods.
But doubling efficiency leading to a doubled population diminishes these goods. More humans cause less efficiency (e.g. unemployment) and so consumption also decreases per capita. You are imagining a world of exponential efficiency applied to finite resources, which is physically impossible. If we didn't have contraception or abortion, we could imagine a world of over 12 billion today. So many more mouths. For example, there are 200,000 abortions every single day, and over 100 million women take the contraceptive pill, globally.
>>2929053Irrelevant to Jevon's paradox because Jevon's paradox talks about efficiency increasing the
per-capita demand for a particular resource, so it has nothing to with whether there are more or less people.
https://debunkonomy.org/en/articles/jevons-paradox-efficiency-accelerates-destruction/Thank you for your psuedointellect though.
>>2928986this shit is all caused by capitalism and you have no evidence otherwise.
>>2929067Who said it wasn't? The whole hysteria over CO2 is to justify "green" growth rather than degrowth, as the former perpetuates capitalist accumulation. The real environmental crisis is the finitude of the planet's resources under a system that requires perpetual growth.
If anti-immigration sentiment are a good launch for getting ourselves into position of power as far-left people i say why not do it? The issue here is the public sentiment on immigration is purely vibe based and won't bring significant electoral success for the left based on what Obama and uk Labour have done.
>>2928697>>2929074>>2929077>>2929082The lack of a common language and culture is not a problem for the state (if anything, it creates a pool from which the state can recruit assets); however, it ensures that the masses cannot homogeneously coordinate their power. It also fractures the imperialized populations of the Global South by creating a privileged diaspora strata. Mass migration is an anti-communist operation.
>>2929084Multiracialism and multiculturalism did not stop the Bolsheviks though. I think it depends.
>>2929074>>2928994Retards will be like "wtf are you complaining about, how am I overfilling your glass, I'm only continually putting 5% more into it than what it holds, what's the big deal?"
>>2929038Even insane right wingers rarely outright deny climate change now, you're a fucking schizo. Yes the earth has had more co2 in the past but that change caused mass extinction and also happened over a much longer period, we are causing a huge and catastrophic change to the environment in just a few hundred years (and faster every year)
>>2929098>Yes the earth has had more co2 in the past but that change caused mass extinction and also happened over a much longer periodThank you for admitting humans have very little influence on the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
>>2929096CO2 only makes up .04% of the atmosphere. What's being overfilled?
>>2929091Correct. Which is why they formed their own nomenklatura, de facto capitalist bourgeois state.
>>2928712Finally good analysis. The international flow of labor follows the same mechanics as the intranational flow. It's less visible now cause the rural world is empty. The goal of some capitalists is implementing the passport-slave system of the gulf states in western countries.
>>2929038>No, it isn't, lol. There is less CO2 in the atmosphere today than there was millions of years ago. The overall climate millions of years ago was dramatically different are you insane
>>2929115>The overall climate millions of years ago was dramatically different are you insaneCorrect, and modern humans didn't exist back then. Thank you for tacitly admitting humans have very little influence over the climate.
>>2929111It's an analogy about how it's retarded to say "it's only 5%, what's the big deal???" It is a big deal if 5% is what it takes to take something from stable to causing an issue
It doesn't matter how small the amount of co2 is, that's monumentally retarded, that's like saying "what's the big deal I only injected you with 5ml of neurotoxin, your body is only 0.1% filled with poison"
I dunno why I'm even saying this, you obviously are not retarded enough to actually not understand this
>>2928851>climate change isnt a problem<ha, nice bait retard>umm actually climate change is a problem, and you're just saying only CO2 is the problemha, nice bait retard
>>2929116In this particular case we do, fucking retard
>>2929118ACC deniers are actually subhuman, I honestly think flat earth might be more respectable
>>2929116That's not the issue and also not what I said you fucking retard the issue is that the modern biosphere evolved for the current temperature range, not one that is 20C hotter and far wetter than the most jungle rainforest extremes we have now.
The reason behind this is because of different cultures stifling centralised government control. A socialist country can't allow itself to let other tribes form. Everyone must assimilate to a standard national identity. Not saying that socialism needs nationalism, since any race can adapt to it.
It's just better overall since it will create less cultural conflict and thus less reactionism.
>>2929132
>climate changed without humans
<therefore humans do not cause climate change
That isn't how logic works you stupid fuck.
The proper communist position in highly-developed nations is to oppose all immigration (inwards and outwards), but also oppose all forms of protectionism and capital controls. That way you prevent brain drain from the global south, but also encourage capital to flow there, shifting productive industry to poorer areas and equalizing development and living standards across the planet.
>>2929121this unironically, you have no argument for mass migration
>>2929210people who couldn't figure out the wheel or their own alphabet aren't going to do a communist revolution sorry bud
>>2929209this is unironically the policy of the USSR DPRK and China
>>2928915they say he does it for free lol
>>2928712The fertility rate is low because of chemicals unfit for human consumption or interaction prevelant in all commonly consumed goods in our society.
Birth rate is what you meant
>>2928986If your bathtub is full, a 5% increase in water will flood your bathroom.
>>2929038>There is less CO2 in the atmosphere today than there was millions of years agoOh you mean that time when humans weren't present and the world was in a completely different climate to which we aren't adapted? Again, literal creationist level retardism. Are you a secretary at chevron?
>>2929104Jesus Christ kill yourself already
>>2929809now you're just mad you lost on CO2
>>2928995>comparing the berlin wall to the refugee crisis/mexican borderthe state of this board keeek
>>2930113This board is without a doubt, the absolute worst board lf the whole website.
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