So, I'm about halfway through The Eclipse and Re-emergence of the Communist Movement by Gilles Dauve, and I have a question. I understand the content of what's being said, the changes being proposed, the reasons why, etc. But, how is this any different from anarcho-communism? Both seek to abolish wage labour, the state, money, commodity production, and exchange value. Both, essentially, propose an immediate transition to communism. The only difference I can see is that Dauve proposes that communization will begin but not be completed for a generation or so, but the abolition of commodity production, money, and the state is the starting point for both. Also, the idea of communism as an existing movement in our current society that just sooner or later manages to fully "break through" was also more or less written about by Kropotkin in The Conquest of Bread. Is it really just a difference in word choice, or one being "marxist in nature?" The content of the actual revolution being proposed seems virtually identical to me.
113 posts and 8 image replies omitted.>>2933422>Literal 100s of millions of people lifted up out of third world poverty in a matter of decadeslmao so what, liberalism did that too.
>>2933797Cool it buckaroo, I tried to give you an honest reflection and you're turning me into a strawman already. My positions are not the result of memes or armchair ideology shopping. They are the result of decades of practical experience and frustration with the weaknesses of the movement as an active participant.
>by what logic is anti-anti-fascism not just alignment with fascism?Nationalism is counter-revolutionary and it must be combated in all its forms. "Fascism" (actual Fascism, NutSacs, Falangists, etc) are manifestations of nationalism and I have no problem with beating the shit out of those assholes. I have done it and I will do it as needed. The problem with "Anti-Fascism" is that its overemphasis of the fascist bogeyman as a monstrous aberration, the shit in the pool of an otherwise sensible Democratic system, therefore pushing revolutionary class struggle to the side and whitewashing the equally murderous role of bourgeois democracy in maintaining the dictatorship of Capital. Fascists propose an interclass alliance with the reactionary bourgeoisie against the spectre of communism for the sake of the nation, Anti-fascists propose an interclass alliance with the progressive bourgeoisie for the sake of democracy.
>define woke, and what makes holding "woke" social views at all wrong in any case?Woke is a liberal analysis of the contradictions of bourgeois society (inequality, inequity, prejudice) using liberal, moralist arguments and reformist solutions. Its incursion into revolutionary spaces is a trojan horse, eroding the autonomy of proletarian revolutionary theory, injecting a bourgeois-reformist discourse which negates the thesis of class struggle. Class is not an identity to elevate, it is a condition to fight against.
>so you're opposed to Palestinian resistance?>do you think Palestinians should just roll over and accept genocide, or else what should they do in the face of extermination?I'm opposed to nationalism and the idea that a Nation can be "free". Proletarians should fight against Capital and its States wherever they may be, whatever flag they fly. National Liberation ideology is capitulation to an idealised notion of the national (bourgeois) State.
>what's your issue with actually existing movements trying to build libcom societies like the kurds and zapatistas?They are neither libertarian nor communist, they are ex-ML groups that decided of rebrand after the fall of the USSR to promote a more "social justice"-friendly vision of social transformation that doesn't seek to eliminate the capitalist mode of production.
>>2933881A third of the world is not enough, get that through your thick fucking skull retard
>>2933881>Still did more than your lineomg bro why is this teamsports mentality so hardcoded into the leftoid brain? Doing "more" things is not inherently valueble or related with communism, if thats your standard just become a liberal (if you are the dengist poster I guess you already are one lol) since thats the "line" that "does more" anyways
>>2933950How’s CHAZ doing?
>>2933951About as well as the warsaw pact
>>2933951>more teamsports brainrotepic, simply epic
>>2933952China is the most powerful nation in the world and Russia has resisted genocide for decades despite the west’s best efforts
>>2933306Marxist-leninists complain that communists dont care about the party while communists think that the party killed communes.
>>2933995China is literally part of the amerigolem menace that took down the warsaw pact, Mao was effectively a trotskyist
>>2933894Liberalism is no longer capable of doing that and hasn't been in over a century. Even when it was the process was much more arduous and took much longer, whereas socialist states can do it in a matter of decades
>>2933881Racist chauvinist
>>2933950>Le teamsports omg>Liberalism is doing thingsLiberalism is destroying the planet retard. Quit projecting about teamsports and understand that Im talking about the actual effectiveness of real social movements. No matter the flaws of MLism, which I don't think you are even capable of understanding, it is still responsible for vastly more gains than any other movement bar none, as I have already described. You can soy rage about how it wasn't "real"tm or le harmful or whatever, but that all just amounts to cope unless you have something better on offer. Which you dont
>>2934013Whoops, the racist chauvinist comment was meant for (You)
>>2933944 >>2934016A third of the world doesn’t mean the third world, work on your reading competition
>>2934013Those gains are still not enough because we’re still in this awful neoliberal status quo that China was central in creating through reform and opening up
>>2934020My bad, but who said anything about a third being enough?
>>2934021It being enough or not is not in question, capitalism and imperialism still stand so self evidently it was not "enough". Abolishing capitalism is hard and MLism has made the most widespread and long-lasting strides in that struggle. I would love to hear about some grand alternative that can produce even more results, but the leftcom/ultroid anti-MLists can never present such a thing.
The neoliberal status quo was created by western imperialism, China had little say in the matter
>>2934013>Liberalism is destroying the planet retard.its capitalism thats destroying the planet and it has done it with the help of ML parties
>>2933460>If Every time you buy plastic bullshit from china in your local walmart, target, and dollar tree you’re building socialism, then I am a full and proud reactionary>>2933514>Again, if selling plastic bullshit to treatlers is dotp than I am firmly against dotpwhy is that such a big deal to you
>>2934040In this context specifying liberalism to capitalism is irrelevant, they indicate the same thing
ML parties are not responsible for the destruction of the planet and are the largest deterrents of said destruction. How about you list some accomplishments of your particular line tho, I'll wait
<inb4 le good theoryworthless without practical results
>>2934055>not responsible for the destruction of the planet and are the largest deterrents of said destructionThis. Also techbros are most vocal advocates for AI oversight.
This thread is a hell hole, please move this hell hole to the communization thread
>>2934072Why are you asking for containment? Moving this thread into the communization thread won't protect it from being shitted up by tankcels
unless it's the thread on /dead/.
>>2934054Because walmart and target and selling people bullshit they don’t need and shopping addiction and landfills full of Chinese produced plastic is offensive to me, i want socialism because I want consumerism gone
>>2934030Reform and opening up were chinese decisions, they could have chosen differently, it worked for them at the expense of every other worker’s ability to organize, they broke the unions, flawed and imperialist as they were
>>2934030My main gripe with Marxist Leninists (online, on here, I’m sure anyone working irl are far superior) is they see their success in the last century and think they can not just replicate it through dogma, but fully conquer the world by having enough purges, enough gulags, having planning tuned like a fine machine.
>>2934077I just want people to be active on the communization thread, nothing else.
>>2934093There's no reason for China to sacrifice its own development, people and interests at some imagined behest of unions in the rest of the world. Not to mention the cooption and defanging of unions and union organizing predates any influence of China, their decisions such as reform and opening up are hardly responsible for that
>>2934097Ok then you're just talking about some imagined adversary in your mind, a strawman. What specific dogma are you talking about? Beyond the need for a vanguard party and democratic centralism, ML parties are quite diverse in their approaches imo.
I don't even think the party has to be ML per-say, if it fulfils the same function. But I don't see such alternatives presented by the anti-ML crowd
>>2934116I literally said posters here snd on twitter
>>2934116Reform and opening up was not the only path of development, plenty of development happened under the GCPR, which was sustainable and could have lead to world communism, but the bourgeois factions of the CPC won and here we are
>>2934098My sib, the whole point of communization is to organically spread outwards. But I will post on the thread if it will bring you joy.
>>2933759>Anarchism, as has been historically proven, is a method that has achieved communism, albeit for a short period of timeAbsolutely not. And it doesn’t explain why you didn’t just stick to communist ideology exclusively.
>because there can be no universal path to communism in a world with near infinite complexity.The universe is not infinite in all aspects.
>>2934161 I do stick to communist ideology. There are multiple paths to communism, which is what I believe to be the ideal form of social organization. Also, argue in good faith. I am not talking about literal infinity, I am talking about a set of material and historical conditions so diverse and complex that no one man or organization could comprehend them enough to create a universally adaptable theory.
>>2934009>China is literally part of the amerigolem menace that took down the warsaw pactdon't leftkkkoms regard the warsaw pact also as reakkktionary against the trve and avthentic revolutionaries ᴉuᴉlossnW and hitler.
>>2934126No need, you have provided a good counter-argument. Let this dicksucktion continue.
>>2934171>I do stick to communist ideologyYou call yourself an anarchist
>There are multiple paths to communismHow is mixing anarchism a valid approach?What are you even adding to the ideology?
>I am not talking about literal infinityThen don’t say infinity
>I am talking about a set of material and historical conditions so diverse and complex that no one man or organization could comprehend them enough to create a universally adaptable theorySo you reject scientific socialism, got it
>>2934186All im pointing out is MLs will screech and tirade and have no means of ameliorating contradictions between themselves, ever ML regarded china as fascist until the exact moment the USSR fell then immediately switched to sucking off the CPC
>>2934200Do you know what scientific socialism got us? The current status quo, that’s what
>>2934210>>2934212>"scientific socialism"<0% Empiricismwhat did he mean by this
>>2934227
dude wtf imagine if they both died that would have been sad.
btw can you send me any theory written by Willich?
>>2934226
Wack
>>2934237
Whatever you say feudalist
>>2934117And Im literally saying you're retarded for saying that
>>2934118>GCPR, which was sustainable and could have lead to world communismI like the cultural revolution too, but be serious. It was not sustainable by any means and there was certainly no way for it to lead to some kind of a global communist order lol. Feel free to elucidate that path though, unfortunately I cannot imagine your response being anything other than "don't siege leningrad, take it immediately" type of larp
Profound retardation: the thread
>>2934388Ungrace us all with your presence you horrid being
>>2934422You have to call them their true name to banish them, which is djinn
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