So, I'm about halfway through The Eclipse and Re-emergence of the Communist Movement by Gilles Dauve, and I have a question. I understand the content of what's being said, the changes being proposed, the reasons why, etc. But, how is this any different from anarcho-communism? Both seek to abolish wage labour, the state, money, commodity production, and exchange value. Both, essentially, propose an immediate transition to communism. The only difference I can see is that Dauve proposes that communization will begin but not be completed for a generation or so, but the abolition of commodity production, money, and the state is the starting point for both. Also, the idea of communism as an existing movement in our current society that just sooner or later manages to fully "break through" was also more or less written about by Kropotkin in The Conquest of Bread. Is it really just a difference in word choice, or one being "marxist in nature?" The content of the actual revolution being proposed seems virtually identical to me.
53 posts and 4 image replies omitted.How do ancoms and leftcoms ensure that reactionaries don't get elected / selected to be a part of the people's council o algo
>>2933474 Yes, I'm aware. I'm the one who said that economy (mixed economy in this case) is not communism, and China is materially wealthy because of good economic management, not because of communism being the mode of production.
>>2933472Communism IS “economic success”, or more accurately the building and development of the productive forces as managed by the proletariat through the communist party
>>2933474*either
I meant “with”
>>2933478 Fair, I suppose, but it's not scientific socialism either. But then again, it's all about what actually leads to society arriving at communism. The correct philosophy will be proven when we get there, I'm just pretty certain that Marxism is the closest we'll get to a coherent analytical framework of it. Thank's for at least being civil; you're better
>>2933482We’ve had more than enough productive forces to enter full communism since Kropotkin wrote Conquest of Bread, he literally proved it with math. This is purely a cope to pretend your preferred faction of the ruling class does so in your long term interests.
>>2933432>I think it is complete determinism, feudalism needed to exhaust all the coal in Europe through more or less complete deforestation and get its population halved by the plague for the mercantile class to eventually take power. COVID, both World Wars, decolonization, and every other financial bubble popping simply isn’t enough.trvke
>>2933486 Based and true. China could've achieved higher phase communism last decade if not well beforehand.
>>2933485Is entropy a law of physics or not? What’s unscientific about putting it at the level of class struggle or even above it as a historic mover?
>>2933489 Because entropy garuntees that things get more disordered in the sense that they progressively become more complex than they were in their starting state. It's "disordered" in comparison to the initial state. Society becoming increasingly complicated is inevitable, but whether or not that increasing complication results in collapse or not depends on the situation. Complication can also lead to uncomplication in a way. The set of historical circumstances that would lead 5000 people to flee society and start a commune in the mountains would be complex. And that new commune society, smaller and thus less complicated socially, is in a higher phase of entropy than before, because it has "decayed further from the original state."
>>2933488Okay I guess I’ll go tell the 100 million + members of the CPC that they’re all wrong and this white petite bourgeois anarchist who’s never worked a day in his life has it all figured out
>>2933495 Not a borgeois, not an anarchist, and I have in fact worked a day in my life. 100 million people believing something does not make it true. If the belief that has the most subscribers is the most true, then Christianity is objectively true (it's not).
>>2933495The BJP is bigger and has more members, who are you to criticize them and glorious Hindustan? Go back to Pakistan
>>2933498Quick question which party is a DotP?
>>2933495 Logically fallacious tankie cope and racebaiting. You're a woke 1 liberal with a red suit on. Unironically the kind of person who would argue against trans women having bathroom access because that could oppress disabled gay black women.
>>2933499If merely saying you’re a Dotp makes you one than I am a a DOTP in one person
>>2933505Good thing they’re a DotP both in theory and in practice
>>2933478consciousness as a self-aware self-correcting feedback loop that some forms of matter develop to more efficiently distribute heat is literally the universe's solution to entropy, and the dialectical position is that entropy and consciousness are in a clear struggle but it is not clear which one will win.
>>2933495>no argument, just ad hominem and appeal to authorityXi aint sending his top guys today
>>2933508My money is on entropy winning that fight
>>2933507the PRC has always been a democracy of multiple classes, not a DOTP, you are a bourgeois socialist, you are a DSA member
>>2933474i understand that complicity in the gaza genocide is very important and urgent but i don't see why people compare china and the USA on this matter when america is both qualitatively and quantitatively much more supportive of the genocide than china is. see
>>2932026 for some empirical data comparing the two.
>>2933431 Cooperative militias. Decentralized, voluntarily cooperative federations of councils/trade unions organized horizontally. There is a set theory, go actually read some. Market-anarchism is fake, and anarcho-fuedalism is even more fake. You should not be counting teenage ideology shoppers who were identifying as anarcho-nazi-market-marxists-with-gay-characteristcs last month as serious adherents a theoretical tendency.
>>2933515i think it's impossible to know given our relatively local and limited perspective in the uni/multi-verse
>>2933517China has leverage it refuses to use, the whole world is complicit at this point, less or more doesn’t matter
>>2933510Quick question how many hundreds of millions of people has anarchism lifted out of poverty?
>>2933306 Original poster here, I've determined that, as one user put it, it's just anarcho-communism for Marxists. I have actually learned though that the difference in theory is that communization will occur naturally as a product of historical conditions, and cannot be hastened or prompted by any workers' organization. Ancoms, on the other hand, believe in doing something to actually improve society and destroy capitalism, so now my bias towards anarcho-communism over communization theory is cemented. I think that communization as a process is technically possible, and so is anarcho-communism, all given the right conditions, but anarcho-communists believe in something.
>>2933529 How many hundreds of millions live under communism in China?
>>2933531 I'll still finish reading though, because it's an interesting text.
>>2933530Infantile whining
>freedom must mean freedom for the group, not freedom for the individual. Men must not be slaves to other men but they must be slaves to their group. For if they are not, they will surely become enslaved by another >>2933535Or you can stop pretending selling treats to treatlers is progress
>>2933535>you are an infantile if you dont think communism is when slaverykek
>>2933535So communism is when you subjugate yourself to the absolute will of some homogenous mass and are not allowed to do anything unnaproved by others?
Damn, really appealing ideology. Its definitely going to spread like wildfire.
inb4 "it's not an ideology, it's da real moovement!!!"
>>2933572>subjugate yourself to the absolute will of some homogenous massYou discovered why people hate collectivism
>>2933572That's every society tho, there always are limits and social pressure
>>2933456why do so many marxists think reproducing nationalism, liberalism and capitalism is a success for a communist party? are they retarded?
>>2933644>are they retarded?Some are. Some are cynical bastards who don't care about politics and just want to gain personal wealth and power.
>>2933406>Organizations only ever turn from revolutionary to reactionary, the reverse order literally never happens decemberists → narodnya volya → RSDLP → bolsheviks
In any case we've already solved this dialectically.
Thesis: Statist Communism
Antithesis: Anarchist Communism
Synthesis: Council Communism
>>2933474>The point of communism is to end both politics and the economyi have never heard this definition of communism from anyone before and it seems to be an utterly absurd definition, like something a conservative would come up with if they were trying to denounce communism as utopian
>>2933525>less or more doesn’t matterignorance of qualitative comparison is unscientific. i don't think anyone in their right mind would say that 1000 and 1 are equal just because they are both greater than zero.
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