/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

the problem with voting is that any individual vote is of low value, while posturing against voting makes you cool. thus, it's always in your interest to be negative about voting to look cool because that coolness is of higher expected value than your vote. (even if you ultimately vote and don't tell anyone about it)

this is particularly true because, in the first instance, nobody can really psychologically handle lesser evilism. you almost always either go for "they're both evil = it's pointless" or "one is actually good" in practice. "this is bad, but less bad, so i have to eat the trade off" is a very difficult position to stay comfortable with, particularly when the situation is complicated. (e.g. you don't want to let parties blackmail you into supporting their evil because it is a lesser evil, and sometimes the "lesser evil" is nothing of the sort - e.g. the Starmer Labour government of the UK is as-much if not greater evil than the previous Conservative administration despite nominally being centre-left.)

on the other hand in some cases like the current US midterms it seems fairly clear cut that one side is stupid and evil and the other side is useless and evil but in a less harmful way. ignoring any 6d chess moves where you go "vote Republican to accelerate the implosion of the US"

>>2938403
but what if trump does a fascism

>>2938378
>* Is voting productive?
no
>* Is voteposting productive?
no
>* What memetic strategies are most effective for this issue?
none

>Every two years there is a new flood of "voteposting" (i.e. dunking on shitlibs who think voting is sufficient praxis by mockingly parroting dem messaging)
You have it twisted. Every two years, both parties unleash their bot swarms and rabid supporters for the upcoming elections flooding every nook and cranny of both the infowaves and physical reality. The “voteposting” you speak of has been here consistently beyond and before election season.
>but I worry that the message that voteposting gets across is that voting is useless
It is bourgeois democracy, not proletarian democracy

>>2938403
voting democrat would accelerate the implosion of the US

>>2938413
Not voting accelerates the destruction of the united states

>>2938413
voting republican will accelerate the pantification and sissification of the us

If you plant bombs in every voting station (or say you have), you would invalidate the entire election (based and revolutionary since we are in an era when the objective conditions support PPW).

>>2938411
bourgeois democracy can, in some cases, allow an element of choice. that shouldn't be dismissed. it is a coke or pepsi choice, a bourgeois choice, but it is nevertheless a choice.

in "normal times" this would be pedantic, but retaining this in mind is useful for when you want to compare somewhere like NZ to somewhere like the UK. NZ is basically a functioning bourgeois democracy where you can pick between coke and pepsi freely - you're not going to vote in communism, but you get a choice of flavor. the various bourgeois interests lend support to one side or the other, the media has its strong biases against anything too contrary to bourgeois interests but is basically fair in analysing the approved choices, and so on.
meanwhile the UK has degenerated into something else where not only are elections and leaderships stage-managed by the press, but the entire purpose of the exercise is to manufacture consent for the flavor already chosen (or more accurately, destroy the flavor not chosen), because the system has degenerated to the point where even allowing the coke-or-pepsi choice is too risky. instead of being trusted to resolve minor intra-bourgeois disputes the public have to be stage managed by a unified front of the people who run the place.
(hence why, anomalous amongst centre-left bourgeois parties, the UK Labour party has continued and worsened the reactionary culture war policies of its predecessor, while the NZ Labour party proposes to stop the incumbent National-lead coalition's culture war policies. NZ permits voters to choose which flavor of bourgeois rule they want, while the UK has already decided what the public are getting.)

>>2938403
>posturing against voting makes you cool.
Yeah I've also made this observation. Relatedly, i think metairony has basically killed discourse. People would rather stand for nothing (and thus be immune to sincere criticism) than stand for something and be wrong.

>>2938421
>bourgeois democracy can, in some cases, allow an element of choice
Not without a worker’s party, which is something you currently do not have.

>>2938424
as inane a statement as saying that without a worker's soda, there's no choice in the beverage market. there clearly is! there may be no good choices, but dr. pepper doesn't suddenly taste like pepsi just because they're both capitalist commodities. choice is permitted within very restrictive parameters, and if you just go "so it's not a choice at all" you lose the ability to analyse cases where you are genuinely not being given a choice at all, because you can no longer distinguish them from cases where you are given a restricted choice.

>>2938428
kek

>>2938427
>as inane a statement as saying that without a worker's soda, there's no choice in the beverage market
That is a horrible analogy.
>there clearly is
n’t
>there may be no good choices
There are good choices, for the bourgeoisie. And you have two options without a worker’s party:

1. Follow their will like cattle
   
2. Reject their seizure of your consent and progress the real movement
   
   

>if you just go "so it's not a choice at all" you lose the ability to analyse cases where you are genuinely not being given a choice at all, because you can no longer distinguish them from cases where you are given a restricted choice.
You do not get to dictate policy as a proletarian without a worker’s party. Attempts to do so without the backing a worker’s party is nothing more than pro capital delusion. I do not lose my ability to analyze, I simply acknowledge the reality of the situation and act accordingly. The blood spilt by capital will never be on my hands.

>>2938427
you're obviously right but dont expect the tards here to understand

>>2938431
stop masturbating to your own rhetoric. you present two options and then (charitably) follow neither of them. you are not "progressing the real movement", you are making stupid posts on leftypol.org.

my analogy is perfectly apt for the situation it describes. in a functional bourgeois democracy, the options acceptable to the bourgeoisie are put on the table and then the various bourgeois sects contest for who has control. you gain valuable information when you recognise this process and observe that it has broken down in some countries and you lose it when you dismiss it with "yeah but they're still bourgeois tho???"

the blood spilt by capital is still being spilt, and your hands are bloodied by your worse-than-useless incompetence at stopping it, the task you pretend to have set yourself.
because there are a lot of stupid people out there: none of this is an argument for voting per se. i take no position on whether you should drink coke, pepsi, or dr. pepper, or abstain entirely. but even for an abstainer: if, tomorrow, they switched every soda brand in your country so that it contained the pepsi recipe, wouldn't that raise an eyebrow?

>>2938445
>stop masturbating to your own rhetoric. you present two options and then (charitably) follow neither of them. you are not "progressing the real movement", you are making stupid posts on leftypol.org.

Everything is a larp and a joke when comes to communism. Nothing is pretend or funny when comes to rescuing “liberal democracy” from itself. Such is the will of the bourgeoisie.

Marx has already stated that even when the times are tough, even when you’re all by your lonesome to keep trying anyways. To keep pushing for class consciousness. And he has already made it abundantly clear that electoralism does not work without a worker’s party.

>my analogy is perfectly apt for the situation it describes your analogy is trash and shows your lack of comprehension of the purpose of the worker’s party.

>the options acceptable to the bourgeoisie are put on the table and then the various bourgeois sects contest for who has control
So many false choices, yet the only ones you can actually make are either be cattle, or walk as far as you can.
>you gain valuable information
Good joke
>the blood spilt by capital is still being spilt, and your hands are bloodied by your worse-than-useless incompetence at stopping it, the task you pretend to have set yourself
My hands are perfectly clean. Yours however are very dirty after peddling this delusional nonsense. Encouraging participation in the system only allows it to strengthen it’s legitimacy, not the other way around.
>coke, pepsi, or dr. pepper
It is all sprite

>>2938455
if your "pushing for class consciousness" by the means of posting on the internet had any impact whatsoever (and mercifully, it doesn't) it would be to drive people away from class consciousness and Marxism by giving the impression its average adherent is an imbecile. you can't parse simple posts on leftypol.org correctly and yet you expect anyone here to take seriously the notion you've any understanding whatsoever of Marx. fuck off.

>>2938460
>if your "pushing for class consciousness" by the means of posting on the internet had any impact whatsoever (and mercifully, it doesn't) it would be to drive people away from class consciousness and Marxism by giving the impression its average adherent is an imbecile. you can't parse simple posts on leftypol.org correctly and yet you expect anyone here to take seriously the notion you've any understanding whatsoever of Marx.
That is a lot of seethe
>fuck off.
No u

> I worry that the message that voteposting gets across is that voting is useless.
It is tho
>>2938445
I would never drink soda

Everytime a leftypolchud seethes about me voting, I'm just going to vote harder. I love watching you suffer. I'm going to vote, and vote again.

>>2938470
watching a leftist vote is like watching an obese person drinking diet soda

>>2938469
I would drink soda unfortunately

>>2938475
Fat fucks of the world unite

>>2938475
me2

watch a bunch of liberals try to explain how bourgeois electoralism is communist.

Read Lenin's State and Revolution. He makes it clear the only use of bourgeois electoralism is to empower a sovereign proletarian party to reveal the sterility and fruitlessness of that very political system and of voting under capitalism in general.

Thats it. As Marx and Lenin made clear the state serves its ruling class. Its character isn't subjective, thats the role of a state - to reinforce and maintain the power of that society's ruling class.

If you lazy cunts actually were the commies you say you are, this wouldnt even be a question. This is as basic as what is a proletarian. You people are having a debate on it. Lol. Try reading. Literally any question you have they solved with words and deeds over 100 years ago. 200 for Marx.

In that same works he also explains why reforms dont work, also a relevant topic of today.

To advocate bourgeois electoralism is to be a liberal. Very simple.