>>1806472I mean, he is not going to read Karl marx man. he is not going to read Lenin, or i guess, nothing socialist in any way
i could just show some infographs about world inequality, about the enviromental disaster that will kill most of the world population, or something like that, but then i would just sound like a liberal democrat or just soc/dem
>>1806063>How do you introduce socialism and marxism to someone like that?you don't
>>1807088Red Plenty brings up Novocherkassk as well. it's a tragedy. it's also a lesson in proper pricing. avoid subsidies and don't change prices too fast
>>1807106>source: Top Secret KGB Reportlmao
Can dictatorship of proletariat exist under capitalism?
>>1807830the DotP is just a form of government, the relations of society is a very different thing. Socialism is essentially just that, the DotP resolving the various contradictions of capitalism until Communism can be reached. Until communism is reached, capitalist elements will remain.
>>1808034Proles are expendable and interchangeable as far as the wealthy are concerned. It doesn't matter what happens to South Korea because the wealthy will be able to afford whatever the want/need even as the rest of the country collapses in on itself.
>>1808034Why do people choose to procreate in such a hyperbusineness environment like that?
Youre just continuing the cycle.
>>1808040u commie retards often think this way but in reality the status rarely transcends national borders why do u think the bourgeoisie would stoop to paying proles for having children if they could retain their privileges for free u moron?
>>1808092also the solution to the demographic problem is very easy (tax lavish consumption heavily and consumption in general push for state funded facilities that offload parents and make children form mutual relationships that aren't based on monetary incentives) but it'll never work in an individualistic liberal purgatory though the only way remains importing people from faraway countries that neoliberalism hasn't fucked over yet but the proles don't like that
I need data about the "Tendency of the rate of profit to fall", is there any scientific indication for this phenomenon?
What is the single most important principle that defines communism?
>>1808666What do you mean by scientific? You mean empirical?
>>1808680I mean like, data, like graphs and stuff, to prove it, by some ecnomics institute, idk. Even a book about the subject would help honestly
>DISCLAIMER
First of all, I'm American, so my concerns and opinions in this thread are coming from an American perspective, so European countries for example may not experience some issues I'm discussing. Also when I'm using the term "immigrant" that is implied to refer to impoverished immigrants from third world nations, so I'm not referring to British or German immigrants.
I'm no expert on leftist theory, or even a leftist at all for that matter, but I wanted the Socialist/Communist opinions on this practice that I find self-contradictory. I only have a cursory knowledge on leftist theory, but I thought that Socialists and/ Communists advocate for better working conditions, higher wages, etc…
I know that not all Socialists or Communists are pro-immigration, but the ones who do advocate for it seem to be betraying the working class, and they seem like hypocrites to me. I can understand the Socialists and Communists who oppose immigration and they seem to be ideologically consistent with my knowledge of leftist theory, but those who advocate for increased immigration make no sense to me at all.
Increased immigration from countries with lower living standards means that the laborers have less negotiating power. Strikes are made less effective because this larger pool of applicants allows the "Capitalist pigs" that you guys seem to hate to ignore the demands of strikers. They can also get away with paying the immigrants who replaced the strikers less money, and these immigrants who hail from more impoverished countries are accustomed to inferior working conditions and generally do not complain about the fact that they are being exploited. Some of these laborers are also illegal, so if they ever raise any complaints about the working conditions, the boss always has the threat of reporting their illegality to the government.
From how I see it, EVERYONE loses from mass migration except the assholes up top.
The "native" workers lose bargaining power and their strikes are much less effective.
The new immigrant workers aren't aware that they are being exploited because they have grown accustomed to poor working conditions after living in their third-world nations for years. "Even though the conditions we're working in aren't ideal, it sure beats sweatshop labor", they reason, or so I think.
The only one who wins here is the rich asshole who now doesn't have to spend nearly as much on his workers, doesn't have to care about improving their working situations because they have less bargaining power, doesn't have to increase their wages, because he can get away with hiring impoverished immigrants who will be more readily accepting to his greedy ways.
From this logic, it would make more sense for the anti-capitalist leftists to oppose mass immigration, and while there do exist Nativist leftists who oppose mass immigration, the whole concept of a leftist who advocates for workers rights and simultaneously wants more immigration seems ridiculous and contradictory.
Pic unrelated I just didn't have any saved that would add to this topic.
>>1808677>The theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property>Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of thing>One of the most vital principles of communism, a principle which distinguishes it from all reactionary socialism, is its empiric view, based on a knowledge of man’s nature, that differences of brain and of intellectual capacity do not imply any differences whatsoever in the nature of the stomach and of physical needs; therefore the false tenet, based upon existing circumstances, “to each according to his abilities”, must be changed, insofar as it relates to enjoyment in its narrower sense, into the tenet, “to each according to his needs”; in other words, a different form of activity, of labour, does not justify inequality, confers no privileges in respect of possession and enjoyment>Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriation.>In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labour, and with it also the antithesis between mental and physical labour, has vanished, after labour has become not only a livelihood but life’s prime want, after the productive forces have also increased with the all-round development of the individual, and all the springs of co operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs!
I want to shitalk Milei out of existance. I want to show facts and news so i can burry him to the ground with facts and logic. I want to behead ancaps, specially the ones that support Milei, so that they become spineless social-dem after the trauma i will do to them.
I know i could just google the news about him, but there is so much information that i am losing because i don't speak spanish, and because most useful information is lost in the sea of fake news and liberal-capitalist propaganda machine. Are there any good articles, new information not much know in western media about Argentina today?
They upset monopoly capital. They are overthrowing capitalism
You are being cannibalized by Iran, Russia, and China?
Unfortunately over the past few years the dominant strain of thinking among the anglophone online 'left' has become uncritical 'critical' support of bourgeois dictatorships in competition with america wherein they cover for their own total lack of organisation and struggle against capitalism by demanding from the proletariat of the global south to shut up and take it up the ass from their national bourgeoisie in the name of 'multipolarity' at which point they will surely get off their asses. Pseudo-communists with no revolutionary program, no marxist analysis, just weakness, contempt and a desire to 'win' vicariously by relishing in the coercive violence of bourgeois dictatorships they don't happen to live in.
The ultimate sectarian.
Is very hard to fight the radlibs, stay here in leftypol for a litle while, you will understand our geopolítical views. Be patient, read the facts. Dont consume only western propaganda
>>1816942>a bourgeois country fighting for their share of the capital cake is "upsetting le monopoly" therefore "communists" have to support themxd
>>1816951How does saying you like china or dont like china effect your organizing? You say they are distracting from their lack of effective organizing by praising china, but aren't you doing the same by blaming your lack of effective organization on china and its fans?
>>1816957You're wasting the proletariat's efforts on non-issues instead of actual organizing. It isn't that hard.
>>1816960But you are wasting them just as much whining about china.
>>1816962Telling allegedly communist organizations to work on actually organizing the working class as one instead of geopolitical bullshit isn't that, lmao.
>>1816936A lot of "the left" doesn't actually have a goal, they're just a cool kids club. Their goal is being communist instead of enacting communism, so to speak. This isn't unique to today or being online, many real communist parties have failed because of this tendency. Critique of the Gotha Program is partly about it. It's just how it is.
Because the orthodoxy hasn't evolved beyond the 20th century and lives in a past where paradise wasn't lost. The United States needs to lose but in the desperation to create the conditions for such a loss, many on the left forget they have been colonized by the capitalism they so readily oppose.
>>1816988So communism actually existed anywhere? Where? From what year to what year?
Gosh OP I had no idea that Langley was in the Global South
>>1816988i guess there is the third option of being a complete retard who doesn't understand anything
>>1816952>average leftynaz/pol/ sees rare newfriend with standard ML communist party program worldview come and make thread asking why this is such a dwindling dumpsterfire with shit takes and zero energy xitter (competing state agency bot farms) copy-paste "discourse">"you are…uhm… séhtarianne"OP just keep going IRL, there is nothing to be found online.
Except for ebooks, bookmark marxists.org, library genesis, etc. That's it. You will do fine with the rest of the communists that actual do things in reality, engaging in workers struggles and assembling the revolutionary vanguard.
Much better than the western petty bourg undesirables that clasp on to communities like these and dominate 90% of its discourse (because they
don't organize,
don't mobilize, are pampered by imperial core bribes and
satisfied by them; are guided exclusively towards "social" media "activity" online in which they fester and proactively expel revolutionary proletarian contribution in exchange for labor aristocrat and bourgeois ideological currents which
of course win out because
anglo anti-Marxist settlers-colonialist NEETs misogynists proliferate this culture ("chan culture")).
>>1816994prehistory - 200.000 to 10.000 BC
russia - 1918-1921
cambodia - 1975 to 1979
>>1817001>engaging in workers struggles and assembling the revolutionary vanguardnice larp
>>1816999i wish the majority of this board didn't have a stick up their ass
I think part of it is a desire to "win" as a reaction to defeat at trying to do something socialist at home + the process of negative polarization contra liberal jingos who defeated them. Like here in the U.S., the belly of the beast, Bernie Sanders was just a lukewarm social democrat and people can debate all that, but it wouldn't shock me if a lot of people here who push multipolarism and pro-Z stuff on the internet (not to say those are a lot of people) were just Bernie fans a few years ago. I know some of them were.
There is a persuasive argument for multipolarism though in a demented accelerationist sense. Like it creates openings where revolution is more possible. It's basically when Lenin said that there are periods of unity in the imperialist camp, but then they are moments where the new alliances and powers develop and then inter-imperialist competition breaks out again, and it's inevitable because capitalism CANNOT do away with competition whether between individuals, companies, or countries. But I don't think Lenin saw that as, like, a *demand* to agitate for. Or rooting for Imperial Germany to prevail. It more changes the strategy of revolution. "It is not the business of socialists to help the younger and stronger robber (Germany) to rob the older and overgorged robber. Socialists must take advantage of the struggle between the robbers to overthrow them all." That inter-imperialist rivalry can also lead to catastrophic wars and be really ugly as the different ruling regimes try to smash all alternatives at home is also left out. Like, what are you going to do? Overthrow the bourgeoisie from behind their backs while they're not looking? No, they're going to throw you in prison or draft you into the army. The USSR, however imperfect or self-interested, also at least represented global labor. This is just all capitalist.
>PFLP
I wonder who is killing Palestinians right now.
>>1817016Israel, the huge benefactor of McChina's capitalist internationalism since they overthrew socialism half a century ago.
Oh, I think you wanted me to single out only the the western end of capitalist imperialism responsible for Israel's existence right? I'm so sorry…
>>1817002>longest period of communism was 4 years in cambodia.Damn, well at least they lasted longer than catalonia.
>>1816936i'm a leftist from the global south, and sympathizing with BRICS isn't the great sin you make it out to be, if you understand that they're still capitalist states and ultimately not on our side. If there's someone who believes Putin is going to found USSR 2.0, that's an ignorance problem.
truth is, everyone who is a leftist outside the west is so fed up with USA world police. and those countries are doing something against it.
>>1817001I'm somewhat inclined to agree with you, but should we really throw the baby out with the bathwater?
'social' media has given the international proletariat an unprecedented opportunity for communication and organising. But it seems like this opportunity is being wasted. I like the example of how Lenin struggled to get his writing outside of his cell that he had to come up with so many elaborate ways to do it, and in the end his movement won. While we have it so much easier yet we still can't effectively organise, even on a local level it is usually very limited in scope.
>>1817025>If there's someone who believes Putin is going to found USSR 2.0, that's an ignorance problem.More like a strawman problem becayse no one says that.
>>1817024Non-sequitor
Also by your logic the UN or the Red Cross is socialist for funding charity and humanitarian aid. Socialism has no meaning to you because you do not care for it or the end of imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism (of which relations you clearly ignore, being mired in idealism).
China, as a result of their rightist peaceful coexistence foreign policy, funds bourgeois governments against proletarian revolutionary movements. This is because a temporary class war in those countries would hurt the social-imperialist return on investments of China.
See China-Duterte relations, China-Myanmar relations, China-Modhi relations, China-Pinochet relations.
>>1817021Holy shit, China sends Israel weapons??!
>>1817027you think people don't believe that?
petite-bourgeois origins and academia wankering i would say. most left-leaning bourgeois academia is either chavista and/or structuralist (they are two faces of the same degenerated coin, but thats another issue) and that ideological perspective oozes within mainstream left-wing politics
the dead weight on their heads like a nightmare, one could say, and have little to no compromise or interest in analyzing their own material conditions and organizing irl
>>1817049China will not "give everything cuba needs"
Cuba is not a beggar nation, is a technology, growing economy, that have one of the best human conditions on south america in the world, relying on economic relations to BRICS.
>>1817032>proved that you can have economic and industrial development while raising people out of poverty and the standard of living<Socialism is when good things Glory to Otto Von Bismarck and Scandinavian "socialism"! The two most authentic socialists of the world!
>>1817025My country was invaded by the US. Don't preach to me about America bad, because however much hatred you hold for it, it is insurmountable to mine. Still I'm able to recognize that a capitalist economic bloc like BRICS does nothing to further the cause of progressive movements inside those countries, in fact it does the opposite by strengthening the national bourgeoisie. It replaces class consciousness with nationalism and anti-capitalism with anti-americanism, as if the US is in any way exceptional aside from its favourable geographic position. We are now seeing many BRICS countries already practicing imperialism, most notably China and its ever growing foreign capital investments, often to the direct determinant of the workers movements such as the case in the Philippines and Nepal.
>critical support memeWe all know that 99% of Tankies who use that term actually mean "critical" as in crucial and essential.
Imagine if Lenin was content with Tsarist Russia because west bad. Have these people read a single book page by Lenin?
>>1817032>you don't understand comrade, they're justified in beheading commies because CNN said they're bad.Uphold Marxism-Contrarianism
>>1817055one of us had to say it. thanks comrade
t. also a third worlder
>>1817056same, ironically
>>1817056Nah, Trotsky was cooking.
>>1817055>We are now seeing many BRICS countries already practicing imperialism, most notably China and its ever growing foreign capital investments, often to the direct determinant of the workers movements such as the case in the Philippines and Nepal. Cool, you fall for the "Brics" imperialism. Cool
>>1817062Kind of stinks of revisioning if you ask me. Anytime a guynstarts writing about marxism at all he is in danger of revisioning. Ok maybe a little light commentary, but you better not be trying to inject any original thoughts in you fucking revisionists.
>>1817063its a bourgeois block, you daft, obtuse moron
imagine supporting the etente or the axis during ww1 and justifying yourself as one being "more socialist" than the other. textbook chauvinism
>>1817068>uhmm bro you don't understand you have to support your US-backed neoliberal regime because it is ostensibly anti-west otherwise you will get coup'edNice circle logic
>>1817067Most South american and african countries prefer trading with BRICS because China will invest in infraestructure and real development. For the first time in history the east has become richer then the west. Industrialization and less dependencies from the west are essential to national independence. Brics works for the development of both sides of the agreement, not one sided relations of imperialism from the west. Show any country that has more then 5-10% of debt to China. The chinese "debt trap" is a lie by the liberal media. Cope and seethe
>>1817068fun fact: did you know that some of these dictatorial pro-american governments, like fulgencio batistas dictatorship were supported by the ussr? or that some of these coups, like the one in argentina, had the green light from moscow?
i guess class struggle is more than just countries invading countries. next time paraguay gets in a war with brazil, we have to support the paraguayan bourgeois because paraguay never invaded anything. never mind the working class, what matters are countries
>>1817067Do you think “bourgeois” is a synonym for “evil”?
>>1817073Mask-off moment, HAHAHAHA
Just wanted to wait until you cry about the USSR.
>>1817072>For the first time in history the east has become richer then the west. Im not sure thats true
>>1817077Well BRICS gdp surpassedvthe g8
>>1817075no. class struggle, ever heard of it?
>>1817076mask off about what? i critically support the soviet model. your logic is baseless
How do you do fellow people from the third-world.
Did you know communism bad?
#debunked #victimsofcommunismfoundation
>>1817082Is it class struggle to get mad at the global south for getting better developed?
>>1817080Of course he’s not, if there’s one thing that unites the imperial periphery it’s their hatred of the rapacious Anglo-American imperialism complex. Yet mister “totally from the global south” wants us to believe that akshully the third world loves America and liberalism
>>1817082>class struggleMove past the 1940’s any time kid
>if someone criticizes me and i run out of arguments it means theyre lying reactionarieschildren like you are why people think socialists are retards
>>1817084the brics is a geopolitical block of national bourgeois, what does it had to do with development? our countries are shitholes because of them, not because of "the global north". in fact, china wants to turn my country into a massive pig farm. WOW much technological advance
>>1817086I am from Brasil, and i can, without a doubt, confirm that there are only 2 types of people. BRICS CHADS and "We need to sell Brasil to USA, they will do neoliberal stuff and send man to die for Israel, that is so cool!".
>>1817087Funny because Morocco is the oldest US ally.
>>1817090>not because of "the global north"Holy fucking shit, HAHAHAHA
>>1817091you and lula can fuck off and die. social democracts breeds fascists like bolsonaro
>>1817090 >our countries are shitholes because of them, not because of "the global north". in fact, china wants to turn my country into a massive pig farm. WOW much technological advanceLOL
Free Puerto Rico 達賴喇嘛 The Philadelphia Fire Bombing of 1985 天安門大屠殺 Wounded Knee Massacre反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Leftist Struggle 大躍進政策 The New Deal 文化大革命 American Cultural Imperialism 人權 Advanced Interrogation Techniques 民運 Engagement in the Electoral System 自由 Freedom from Homelessness 獨立 Bodily Sovereignty 多黨制 Political Parties with Different Interests 台灣 臺灣 Palestine Gaza 中華民國 Union of Soviet Socialist Republics 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Hawaii 達賴喇嘛 Fred Hampton 法輪功 Joe Hill 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Louisiana State Penitentiary Semi-Autonomous province 諾貝爾和平獎 Paris Conference 劉暁波 Huey P. Newton 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Tony The Tiger 劉曉波动态网自由门
>>1817055america and BRICS are not the same. Washington is barbarism and will always be the bigger evil. and nothing can convince me otherwise.
>>1817063>>1817072"muh BRICS imperialism" is literally Gobbelsian propaganda from the West, accusing others of what they themself are guilty of.
The "debt trap" is the behaviour conducted by Western neoliberal agents like the IMF, demanding endless austerity and privatization that results in economic and political capture by the Western economic interests - the big "multinational" corporations - that allow only low-productivity resource extraction and the most basic of manufacturing, suppressing further development of more value-added goods. BRICS funding allows the third world a way past this blockade, which is why the West pushes this message to try and cut off none-neoliberal alternatives.
>>1817094did you know the fathers of argentine capitalism are the much hated by chauvinist retards brits? they didnt "depredate" our country, they actually developed means of production
the usa is not to blame unilaterally for our woes, the national bourgeois are fully complicit with their plans and destroying the proletariats welfare. in fact, the social democrat national bourgeois have been complicit with the chinese bourgeois interests. neither block has the southams proletariats interests in mind
>>1817097LOMJE - AVOMPLA - HLVS
>>1817102Agreed. Very well said
Did you know that the US is actually the most progressive force in history?
>>1817108
EVERY TIME
>>1817108
What is your country anon?
>>1817110
LMAO im an ancap because i dont kiss brics ass
fuck off and die, menshevik pig
>>1817103>did you know the fathers of argentine capitalism are the much hated by chauvinist retards brits? they didnt "depredate" our country, they actually developed means of productionthe usa is not to blame unilaterally for our woes, the national bourgeois are fully complicit with their plans and destroying the proletariats welfare. in fact, the social democrat national bourgeois have been complicit with the chinese bourgeois interests. neither block has the southams proletariats interests in mind
Oh, you are an ancap Argentine. Got it. That explains a lot
Needed to delete my comment
I never knew "the third world" was a country. Til.
>>1817103Agree, let's support the British Empire, they were progressive compared to the savages.
>>1817111Its most proud achievements are creating civilization and making the American empire experience imperial overreach in the 21st century
>>1817114Didn't you know, OP is from the country thirdworld™ thats where all the brown people™ come from.
>>1817117Oh… lmao. Now why I know why you hate china. So whose country is more revisionist and capitalist roader, your's or China?
>>1817120Both are neoliberal shitholes. Nothing against my Chinese comrades.
>>1817115the british bourgeois supported the criollo bourgeois fight against spanish feudalism. i cant believe i have to point out this, capitalism is more progressive than precapitalism
>>1817102one of argentinas biggest trade partner is china and weve been wallowing in misery and improductivity for decades. all thanks to the chavista myth of "america bad everything else good"
do you think the usa is omnipotent or something? china has no interest in developing this country and never had. at best it just wants a part of the profits
>>1817120>21st>create civikizationI can't read. I'm used to the antichina vietanon. So uhh Iraq? Never seen an iraqi on here before.
>>1817122Down with Milei, long live the argentine people, hope they all come to Brasil.
>>1817102 (me)
Honestly if there is a real criticism of BRICS, it's that it doesn't do enough as a bloc - sure the individual countries do quite a bit, but that's as individual countries, not as the BRICS bloc. BRICS is basically just a grabbag of "the big ones who aren't Western", there is no unifying ideology there.
I should reply with a greentext muttjak whenever a we*toid opens their stupid theorylet mouth.
>>1817001>anglo anti-Marxist settlers-colonialist NEETs misogynistslol get a load of this fag
<*criticize brics and china*
>OH SO YOU SUPPORT THE AMERICAN EMPIRE THEN!!!!! FUCKING ULTRA ASSHOLE AGGHGHGHGHH
>>1817125The unifying idelogoy is gettin out from us dollar hegemony and sanctions regimes.
>>1817130Nah, you just support the British Empire instead.
>>1817124cant wait to publicly hang him and every bourgeois in plaza de mayo
>>1817130>did you know the fathers of argentine capitalism are the much hated by chauvinist retards brits? they didnt "depredate" our country, they actually developed means of production>the usa is not to blame unilaterally for our woes, the national bourgeois are fully complicit with their plans and destroying the proletariats welfare. in fact, the social democrat national bourgeois have been complicit with the chinese bourgeois interests. neither block has the southams proletariats interests in mindYou are someone who say stuff like this
>>1817134I will be honest, i am tired, i will not reply anymore, Goodbye
>>1817122>the british bourgeois supported the criollo bourgeois fight against spanish feudalism. i cant believe i have to point out this, capitalism is more progressive than precapitalismAgree, colonialism good.
>>1817134two hundred years happened since the british completed their task, dense moron
and if we are a shithole then the corrupt, greedy, depraved national bourgeois are to blame, not "le ebil empire". if anything the argentine bourgeois (succdem or liberal, doesnt matter) guarantee the profits of international capital, be it chinese, american or european
>>1817137the brits never colonized argentina what are you even talking about
>>1817141>the brits never colonized argentina what are you even talking aboutbut muh lvinas…
>>1817144cant believe even the trotkyist fags jumped on the nationalist wagon. its fucking shameful. two stupid useless rocks are not worth a single drop of workingmens blood
>>1817141yes le evil empire. the argentinian national bourgeois serve US interests, just like every country in Lat Am
>>1817141>the british never colonized argentina>>1817146>ok they did but it doesn't matter FORGET ABOUT ITok
>two stupid useless rocksit's a NATO military base in south america
If you disagree with Generalplan Ost then you're a Slavic chauvinist against progressive forces (most of Germany was industrialized while the USSR was still in the progress of industrialization in the 1930s).
>>1817149shut the fuck up. dont even talk about this. dont open your mouth about topics you have no idea about
>>1817154Latest articles coming up from last year but it seems five years running, guaudo is no longer the legitimate president and they still didn't give it back.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/venezuela-loses-uk-appeal-long-running-gold-reserves-battle-2023-06-30/
>>1817122Argentina was and is still under the influence of the Western finance sector. The imperialist-finance organs siphons some 2.2 trillion every year from the Third world to the pockets of the Western ultrabougie. No shit much if the third world, Argentina included, is still shitholes, under such pressures, how could they be anything else?
Chinese trade and investment is what's been keeping them afloat. Milei is an abject reminder of what full-throated America gets you.
>>1817130This but unironically. The west has made the game clear quite clear: their success depends on our impoverishment. They will lie, cheat, steal, murder to defend their ill gotten gains, and if we don't follow we're the next target. It's us or them.
>>1817154>>1817155Can anyone find a copy of this article, Tales of Economic Warfare, for me on this for free, this law universityfaggotry is all pay walled.
<al Attar, Mohsen and Alexander Reay. 2021. Tales of Economic Warfare: The Plunder of Venezuela. Indian Journal of International Economic Law 13: 1–26.
>>1817181You dont know how much retarded the right wing people are in Brazil. I tried to be polite
>>1817180>you HAVE to choose between your national bourgeois or some arbitrarily defined "foreign bourgeoisie"Very communist.
>>1817180its tiring to debate someone so dense. you dont even know the material conditions of my country and still you pretend to lecture me on them. *CLASS STRUGGLE*, ever heard of it?
china DOESNT keep us afloat
the national bourgeois are an ENEMY, and they FUCK OVER US regardless of their allegiance and deals towards china or the usa
>>1817195>quoting the forefathers to avoid taking an analytical, dialectical stance on current problems and current societieshello kautsky!
>It sometimes feel like I'm the only principled leftist online
What is with fucking "DAE real socialism?!" attitude? There is no shortage of places for you to hem and haw about real socialism including right here, stop acting like a persecuted little manbaby.
>How can I feel solidarity for a group that supports the reactionary oppressive forces which are cannibalising me and my community in the name of "lesser evilism"?
Explain how Russia, China and Iran are cannibalizing your country "comrade".
>>1817202I was joking. Notice the "/s"
From another third world leftist:
Você é um retardado ultraesquerdista do caralho, como jamais vai ter nenhum poder nas mãos nem ter que lidar com as condições materiais do mesmo, suas ideias nunca serão postas à crítica da realidade, então são perfeitas… e inúteis.
>>1817214Saw someone make the point recently which hadn't occurred to me that many Chinese investments in the world are much easier to nationalize compared to, ah, Western financial services. I'm not sure those Chinese companies would like that very much though!!!
>>1817221la aplicacion de tus "ideas" choca y colapsa contra la realidad todo el tiempo. de hecho promueven la existencia del capitalismo y la destruccion del bienestar de la clase obrera apoyando a burgueses socialdemocratas
el proletariado de la region se esta haciendo fascista y pro-yankee por culpa de la burguesia nacional progresista pro-china, no porque los yankees son dioses omnipotentes
>>1817238>china is making countries in south america pro-USlol wtf
se mata retardado
>>1817244china no, tarado
>este tipo pro-china me caga de hambre>entonces me banco cualquiera que se oponga a elno es tan dificil de entender. la socialdemocracia alineada con china es lo que pavimenta el fascismo proyanqui
de todas formas china no tomo represalia alguna contra bolsonaro ni milei ni bukele ni tantisimos otros reaccionarios mas
>>1817087>imfthat takes me back, these days it's all
>nuuuu don't take that belt and road deal. belt and road is a chicom conspiracy to rule the world with devlopment loans with better terms
lol
Neither Washington or Beijing mfs when the artillery brutally dismembering them came from Salt Lake City.
>>1817214>US installs puppet neoliberal regime in war>Neolib does standard neolib opression things>"Why would China do this??!?!1"Lol, lmao.
>>1817055Sadly people here have believe that multipolarity is socialism in of itself and not just a step from the current imperial order towards a socialist order.
Most likely it is because they intimately believe that revolution is impossible, which leads them to these positions.
>>1817343You don’t get it, muh china bad
>>1817343Who are you quoting?
>>1817544western, chauvinist petite-bourgeois who larp as stalin-era commissars, comrade. these mensheviks in disguise have no idea about what theyre talking about
>>1816954>a bourgeois country fighting for their share of the capital cake is "upsetting le monopoly" therefore "communists" have to support themCommunist China is a qualitatively proletarian country which fights monopoly capital and capitalists in order to redistribute the value of the capitalist system to the proletariat.
Communists ABSOLUTELY MUST 💯 support Communist China. Not supporting Communist China means supporting capitalism.
>>1816936>"critically support" Do you understand what this term means? Your entire argument relies on a strawman based on people online supporting countries that are the primary opposition against globalized Western hegemony. Do you think your Iraqi communist groups would be EVER able to even EXIST if the USA didn't have Iran, Russia and China to think about? At this point you and your group are barely on their RADAR because of that, they keep tabs on you, but otherwise you're not seen as a threat. Moreover their imperialist actions done against BRICs nations further accelerates people's frustrations, which is the opportunity of communist/leftist groups to take advantage of and appeal to. The point isn't "Muh god emperors Putin and Deng are unassailable communists!" and nobody here ever claims that except in satirical jest. Nobody claims that Iran or Russia or China are perfect communist states or some shit, but what we do recognize is that idealism is not an option at the moment. In the days of the USSR, you could pick and choose who you allied with, because at the end of the day there was a genuine socialist alternative in Eurasia that was self-sufficient and could protect itself.
Your criticisms about China are also hilarious, what are they supposed to do, just plunge into a nuclear war? Attempt a conventional one and then get nuked? What is it you are suggesting people do? Join an org? Most orgs are laughable radlib nonsense. Go to those countries? Okay, how? Many people here aren't living in the global south or aren't living there right now, and to go there you need money, resources, contacts. Not to mention the sheer arrogance of someone from another country coming over to join in on a grass-roots movement. Why do you think Rojava caught increasing amounts of flak over time?
Your principled communism isn't worth squat unless those principles appeal to the greater human population. You mock with "Socialism is when good things" and completely forget that socialism is a PEOPLE'S movement. The People do not care about your stupid motherfucking principles, they never did. Do you think the Red Army was made up of people fighting for Marxist ideology? Fuck no, they were fighting for Land, Peace, Bread. They were fighting for the right to live in homes that weren't 2x2 meter barrack sections, to be able to eat bread and not worry about starving every 5 years, to be able to get medicine, for them and their children to live better and more happily. That's why the USSR was able to industrialize in 10 years instead of 100, that's why the USSR managed to continuing raising production of tanks and tractors when the Germans captured Ukraine, that's why the USSR became a super-power, because the first generations of Soviet people worked, fought, bled and died to ensure a better future, and even after the fall of the USSR, even after the 1990s and the rise of oligarchs, Russia's people today live a hell of a lot better than their ancestors a century ago. That's what the working class cares about, especially in non-Firstoid countries, and not whether Marx like this or that aspect of social development.
We live in what Stalin predicted as a time of the Blackest Reaction, the communist movement is splintered, plagued by liberalism and lacks supportive infrastructure and mass-appeal. It cannot afford to pick and choose allies at this time, there is a greater threat - Western Hegemony, and fighting it means that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. This is the same situation as when communist groups came to power a century ago, and is likely the scenario that will happen decades from now.
>Glory to Otto Von Bismarck Except that's not what Bismarck did you historical ignoramus, nor is this at all dialectical, his actions were part of Germany's industrialization and development which according to Marx was what would lead to conditions that subsequently would lead to a Revolution. By this same metric of derogation you may as well talk shit about the French Revolution, because to your "bourg" = "baaad" even though that's not how dialectical materialism works, which you'd know if you actually read Marx as a "principled communist/leftist/etc."
>fulgencio batistas dictatorship were supported by the ussrNo they fucking didn't. I have yet to find any actual sources to this claim. It reeks of Sectarian anti-sovietism.
>>1817192 Lazy fucking shite so I'll give it a lazy fucking response, "something something, supporting national bourgeois in a fight against foreign bourgeois" t.somecommunistleader
But seriously has everyone forgotten how China became communist under Mao and kicked out the Japanese? They had to ally with Kai Shek in all but official terms to fight off an imperialist threat that would crush the communist movement and without such an alliance the communist movement would be stuck to the same role as other countries were Communists decided to be "principled" and were crushed by foreign imperialism who then proceeded to create puppets out of the national bourgeoisie. Do you think when Lenin fought the Russian Civil War, the Bolsheviks weren't fighting alongside the Left SR's and Menshiviks and any number of petty ethno-nationalists against the Right SRs, White Guard and foreign intervention? The fact of the matter is that under the current global circumstances, communist groups lack the strength, cohesion and structure to strike out on their own.
>Muh Kautsky lolKautsky is not some unassailable prophet, but his words in that text remain quite important today; there's a reason the term "History repeats itself" exists.
Where can i get a list of all the USA attempt coups, human rights violations, war crimes, etc. On the internet?
Also, i wanted to prove 3 things to a certain friend, with data and facts:
1) global inequality, the people of the world are not "lazy", i need to explain in a easy this concept
2) People in Latin America are not "lazy and dumb", and why "personal experience" is not a good source at all.
3) USA is not productive, people there don't live good lifes, almost everyone that i met in this website says living in the US is a semi-nazi hellhole, etc. I want to prove those facts.
Idk, i remember that before there was a wikipedia list showing that basically all war crimes commited in the history of humanity came from the US, i can't find it no more. F
>>1819007The attached PDF may be helpful. I haven't done a scan of it yet (it was just posted it another thread), but open it offline if you're concerned about IP trackers.
>global inequality, the people of the world are not "lazy", i need to explain in a easy this conceptI mean, seriously ask him to think about his own question, the realities of it are pretty dumb. I think he is confusing "lazy" for not wanting to contribute to meaningless capitalist slob behind a cubicle. Is he as lazy when he is doing things he is passionate about? And for things that he is not intrinsically passionate about but still does them, is every single one of those things only motivated by money? Or can there be another incentive besides financial gain, the more likely case. In addition, for facts and data part, I would look into Universal Basic Income, and the results. Kurzgezat on youtube made a video about it, might want to send him that.
>People in Latin America are not "lazy and dumb", and why "personal experience" is not a good source at all. Quiz him on the social classes he experienced growing up, and ask him to elaborate. I have a feeling the lazy and dumb elements of society he describes might be elements of Capitalism opposed upon them from abject poverty and whatnot. Either way, the argument sounds sketch, I'd definitely need more details.
>USA is not productive, people there don't live good lifes, almost everyone that i met in this website says living in the US is a semi-nazi hellhole, etc. I want to prove those facts.Productive in what, GDP? It has one of the largest GDP's among the nations of the world. What does he mean by "good life"? A wealthy one? Productive? I think bro's confused, and in his confusion, he's looking for answers and is attaching them to non-materialistic, emotional responses. He refuses to dig deeper and investigate the root of the problems caused by Capitalism, and for that you must be there for him. I must recommend you to the wiki, there you'll find more resources
>>1819205Ok, i will think of what you wrote carefuly. In productive, i mean, not that the US worker is lazy, no, but for him, everything is about "culture". He thinks people in the US are "honest" because the govnerment is good in erradicating crime, there is "no corruption", people are much more "free" from "govnerment intervention to innovate", etc. He has gone to the USA several times in bussiness trips, and always talks how much stuff he can buy because they live so much better and are so much better then anyone else. Also he talks how in the US there is no homeless people, since if "you are homeless in the US the police will put you in jail and you will die from cold in there."
I mean, my point is that, in question of manufacturing industrial products, the US is much more of a importer then a exporter. All about the trade deficit. They can only afford cheap prices of goods because of world inequality and exploration of the global south. It has nothing to do with some "USA economic miracle" or something. I find it funny how delusional he is in thinking the USA economy has never been better.
>>1819220I will read those later, thanks!
>>1819007Don't have a full list but here's some stuff, also check the
>>>/edu/ Debunk thread, there's a list I posted there about anti-communist myths
Here's some pdfs not already posted
>>1819205>>1819220>>1819007>>1819384Also I suggest reading Confessions of an Economic Hitman, also quite important and see the CIA thread for more.
Addendum - the Jakarta Method
>>>/edu/8394>>>/edu/18236
>>1818173>Do you understand what this term means?Shill for capitalism while being a self-righteous faggot about it too?
Good suggestions, thanks everyone
Under socialism how do we deal with a majority of jobs that aren't made for profits like caretakers, nurses or cashiers and still keeping wages of everyone high? I genuinely have no idea how that would work.
>>1819532What do you mean? All economic production would be divided among the workers, not only those directly involved in production.
>>1819594Being a principled communist is shilling for capitalists, islamists, and nationalists because you don't think working class revolution will ultimately happen?
Sounds like MLoids are opportunists with a purely aesthetic ideology tbh, more and more every day
>>1819641>If you're not being a retarded ideologue and understand geopolitics and their impact on real-politik decisions of communist movements then you're "unprincipled" Damn, guess you better toss out your computer and start attacking all the proletarians for not being class conscious because you said so, anything less would be 'unprincipled'! See I can create strawmen too, only I'm doing so to mock you, not argue in bad faith.
>Muh ML! Go back fashoid.
>>1819532See the USSR's method
Is it necessary, to rename Maoism-Third-Worldism into Maoism-Global-Southism?
What's your plan to deal with the immediate brain drain that happens after the revolution? not every doctor, engineer or technician is gonna be on board with your project.
Although one could argue this is not a problem anymore since a lot more people today pursue higher education than in say 1917.
>>1820127Maoism-Peripheralism
I'm looking for an ancient 4chan screencap (like 10 years old), where some anon does a "today I will remind them" with an overview of how stormfront astroturfed on 4chan. I've been digging through my folders but I can't find it.
>>1824921You should be more worried about the ones who remain harboring reactionary tendencies than those who leave. For them maybe a cultural revolution style movement is necessary. Even with an exodus of professional classes, developed countries would still have more left than say Russia or China.
Arguing with my friend about censorship in the Soviet Union. What was that one author that basicallg outright said the white army should have won, aggressively criticized the government, and was in fact praised by Stalin and honored with some sort of award? Someone posted about him.
What do marxists think of the Meidner (is that how you spell it) Plan in Sweden
Can a economy keep on "growing" forever, be it in a capitalist or socialist/communist economy? What conditions are necessary for a stable growth of value, real value, not speculation, to keep on expanding for an unlimited amount of time?
>>1828188Economic growth is limited by material resources and labour capabilities. The Earth is not an infinite resources, which is why re-using and recycling materials is something to be done on an industrial level and objects should be long-lasting so as to not waste the materials they are made of.
>What conditions are necessary for a stable growth of value, real value Depends on what is in question, the real value of a car, or a building, or a person etc. is all different and some things have limited value, while other things, such as many people have theoretically infinite value if cultivated. I think Cockshott discusses this in one of his books, but I'm a bit too lazy RN to look up which one.
>Economic growth is limited by material resources and labour capabilities. The Earth is not an infinite resources
Is there ways to artificially increase those?
>>1828347Matter cannot be destroyed or created by any scientific means we know of at the moment. Theoretically one can convert energy into material mass (a la Star Trek replicators) but it's pure speculation at this point.
>>1828360In the question of material resource extraction, comes to mind the exploration of the natural resources of other planets.
Talking about labor capabilities, artificially creating human life and "Transhumanism" is one option.
Since we are not even CLOSE to getting those in the near future, i believe we should expect a colapse of the consumer based economy of neoliberalism and all the consequences of post ecology colapse to come in the near future with full force.
Also, i am sure that there is much more to GDP growth then the production of industrial goods, which require as you said lots of resources and personnel.
>what's the praxis of Maoist Third Worldists?
Arguing online.
Waste everyone's time defending some bourgeois country on the opposite side of the planet just because it has a lower GDP than the "first world" and/or the population isn't white.
>>1828388>Pretending to ask a question but really just going to have a little bitching session about 'Maoist Third Worldists'This is what /siberia/ should be for tbh.
>>1828388>who consistently tell socialists in the Imperial core for either give up and do nothingWhenever those "socialists" do something, they are:
1)"elected" in capitalist democracy, wich makes them become reformists that doesn't do anything regardless to creating the DotP
2) Bookclubs
3) Nostalgia centers
4) Syndicates and trade unions that achieve the same goals as any other syndicate or trade union.
5) Illegal organizations that try to do something but get caught by FBI and CIA infiltrated glowies.
Whenever those "socialist" movements are mentioned in Leftypol, they are discarded as simply reformists/social-democrat instead of actually doing Marxist Leninist thought. So is not the "Maoist third worldists" that hold those views. Is just that there is no worker movement in the imperial core.
Also, we can have the debate again that not a single time a communist revolution was successful in the "imperial core". I would love this was not the case, but it did not happen a single time.
Maybe the most close to a successful revolution in a ""industrial"" country was the Cuba revolution, as i saw some people arguing for that, but even then, i don't think small Latin American country comes to mind when talking about "Imperial core"
>>1828415>4) Syndicates and trade unions that achieve the same goals as any other syndicate or trade union.>>1828415One of these is not like the others.
>>1828415Also,
>there is no worker movement in the imperial coreAs long as the proletarian exists there will be a proletarian movement, retard.
>>1828431The only DotP in history was the USSR. A bunch of other revolutions around the same time happened but never got very far. Mao's wasn't a marxist revolution and neither was Cuba.
>>1828435What i wanted to write was:
>4) Socialist/communist syndicates and trade unions that achieve the same goals as any other syndicate or trade union, but with more red colors. They could have any ideology, this union would achieve basically the same goals as any other.>>1828437>As long as the proletarian exists there will be a proletarian movement, retard."There will be", doesn't mean that it exists right here right now in the imperial core or has the organization/power to change anything. There is no such thing as a revolutionary Marxist-Leninist workers movement in the US, France, Germany, UK, etc, that is close to get into power any time soon. This should be obvious, and it pains to me to repeat this again and again.
>>1828461No G7 country is remotely close to the conditions of Russia in 1917.
>>1828440>Mao's wasn't a marxist revolution and neither was Cubaretard
>>1828454>There is no such thing as a revolutionary Marxist-Leninist workers movementThat's because MLs aren't revolutionary.
>>1828473Castro didn't "become" a marxist until much later so that means Cuba's program never was. Moreover Mao and his bunch were not Marxists at all. As Trotsky's wife put it well: the Maoist regime was as remote from communism as Franco's Spain.
>>1828483>As Trotsky's wife put it well […]No I think Ramón Mercader put it best: ⛏️
>>1828487I'm already aware you morons only know "theory" from memes.
>>1828388Mao Zedong was a bourgeois nationalist who was more interested in "the fatherland" than the proletariat. The current state of China and maoists should be of no surprise then.
>>1828388>Basically, what's the praxis of Maoist Third Worldists?>And I always encounter these people either online and therefore doing nothing, or maybe LARPing on a campus and therefore doing nothing >It all comes off as the most radical of bohemian do nothing lifestylism and endless whining and navel gazingThank you OP for clarifying that " Maoist Third Worldists" are hypocrites, LARPers, "do nothing lazy bohemian lifestyle whiners".
A very well founded case based on real theory and practice, totally not a personal sectarian grudge. You are the "real one" doing "something".
>>1828503OP isn't wrong, but this extends to most 'marxists' both irl and online.
>>1828507and doing the tired old "real marxism has never been tried" shit every day is original?
>>1828491i'm not going to take a post claiming mao wasn't a marxist seriously, you should just be mocked for it
>>1828508The way you perceive those groups depends heavily on your own personal experience, and a argument born from it will not be as solid as it could be.
>>1828509Well at least that's a sincerely held belief and not a lame quip about how your dear leader was so insecure he needed to murder everyone who had different ideas to him
>>1828509>communism hasn't been achieved so let's call anything communism, fuck analysisYou're an utter joke.
Love Mao all you want (he was perhaps the greatest liberal democrat of the 20th century after all) but don't pretend he overthrew capitalism. 😂
>>1828516The average leftoid group can only waste proletarians' time discussing incessant pointless trifles, handing them cretinous newspapers or pamphlets from a like-minded sect of dunces while they're at it, too. Maybe become part of the bourgeois electoralist machine too by trying to accrue votes.
Organizing with the proletariat to unify their separate struggles never once crosses their minds.
>>1828524Ok and what would you do differently? And why are you not already doing it?
>>1828525<Organizing with the proletariat to unify their separate struggles never once crosses their minds.Reading is hard!
>>1828527That's just a vague mission statement, not an actual plan
>>1828530Do communist work within proletarian organizations and strikes that aims to unify scattered worker initiatives in a centralized, coordinated manner. If this is vague to you then you're more retarded than I thought.
>>1828388>Muh Maoists >Muh MLs>Muh Trotskyism>Muh MarxistsThis thread stinks from sectarism. But i don't mind it, i prefer this thread existing anyway, even though:
f) are low effort sectarian bait rather than good faith discussion
e.g. “Tankie/Anarkiddie hate thread” or “Why does this theorist suck so much?”
At least is something.
>>1828535Watch mods delete the thread even though the replies at least have some substance.
>>1828537I would be pretty sad if that was the case
>>1828534Well why don't you go and do that then instead of bitching about everyone else?
>>1828473A socialist revolution does not talk about interclassist blocs of 'joint dictatorship'. Mao himself denied that the CPC wanted a DotP at first for China.
Mao never had a coherent single definition of socialism. It's not as if definitions change after decades, either. The definition of socialism is the same as it was in 1848 when the Manifesto was published.
You braindead morons don't even know about the figures you dickride incessantly.
Has any Marxist theorist addressed how most right wingers are clearly biologically defective? I don't think any education or change in material conditions can rewire their brain. I know due to history of eugenics this question is uncomfortable, but one cannot ignore how utterly deranged the average anti-communist is.
did Lenin really liked Trotsky more than Stalin?
cause it makes no sense, like, Trot has just too many dissonances with his vision
>>1803499liberalism is only leftist going by the wack-Overton Window of the USA
>>1829896No. For those who will inevitably cite “Lenin’s Testament”
Lenin’s Testament is a questionable piece of work written at a time when Lenin was no longer in a fit state of mind and when it was becoming obvious that a successor for Lenin was going to be needed. Trotsky at that time showed his true colors and struck out as the opposition, going against Lenin’s ideas, but instead of fighting with Lenin who was all but dead, he instead focused on twisting Lenin’s words for his own purposes against his opponents, and using the authority of Lenin’s words to try and discredit them.
Lenin’s testament shows that Lenin did not KNOW that Stalin would be his successor but that it was likely regardless of his flaws. In fact the falling out with Stalin right before Lenin's death was because Stalin had given Lenin's wife a rebuke while discussing communist policy and she complained to Lenin about it who obviously took offense on her behalf.
https://stalinsocietypk.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/on-the-relations-between-lenin-and-stalin/https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/on-the-alleged-forgery-of-lenins-testament/
>>1829953thank you! that was really helpful
Is there any critique of utilitarianism from a socialist perspective? I vaguely remember reading something about it on this website
So what's up with this Simon Sebag Montefiore guy? Wrote "The Court of the Red Tsar", spread the "Stalin had a child bride" thing, is beloved by all of liberal society, what's going on with him?
Does he just make shit up? What's the dirt on him?
>>1830358bro had his name in the Epstein flight logs, you do the math
>>1830358He's a hack. An unscholarly hack who writes pop history books for rich people. Should never be treated as a serious historian.
I tried his Stalin bio when I was researching the Beria case. He doesn't source most of the things he says about Beria, and when he does he relies on anecdotal evidence and dubious accusations. And even the few times he mentions "archival documents" he doesn't source said documents. He simply says "Oh but there are archives that prove this and that" You CAN'T fucking say the evidence proves x thing and not cite said evidence. You cease to be a historian when you do shit like this. And of course to top it off, the man accusing others of mass rape was friends with Jeffrey Epstein.
>>1830358bro accused stalin of being a pedo while literally being on the epstein flight logs lol, if anything bringing this up is a good thing and helps discredit boof ass anti communist hysterics
>>1830325One gorillion years ago Jeremy Bentham came up with a thought experiment: Suppose we want to make people happy. There are many factors to consider: The intensity of how good or bad it is, whether it happens sooner or later, how long its duration is, how likely it is that it happens blahblah. Almost all these numbers are wild guesses. Marx made a few short dismissive comments about Bentham's
"calculus
".
Since then Marxists "know" it is right and proper to be dismissive of utilitarianism without either reading Bentham or any of the more recent things. Also, some SanFran dorks are into utilitarianism ("efficient altruism") including some recently arrested finance innovator. Guilt by vibes. It's trendy among the online left to call utilitarianism a pro-capitalist ideology (or "neoliberal ideology" if you want to say the same thing but are too much of a coward).
But it is easy to argue for an almost total leveling of income and wealth with utilitarian arguments.
>>1830857>But it is easy to argue for an almost total leveling of income and wealth with utilitarian arguments.That isn't the lofty mission and goal of Communism.
>>1830857>But it is easy to argue for an almost total leveling of income and wealth with utilitarian arguments.Which is simply impossible under a capitalism system.
>>1830858Was a goal of many communists pre-Marx and still is.
>>1830859That was the point of the statement.
>>1830857the fact that something can be used to assemble an argument for communism does not, in itself, mean it's not worthy of ridicule or not primarily found in service of capitalism. (one can argue for communism based on the acts of the Biblical Jesus, but that doesn't redeem the church…)
>>1830858then i am not a communist!
What is the raison d'etre of the stock market beyond actual capital investments these days? Are futures just a way for the bourgeoise to gamble so that the enormous amounts of dollars printed have somewhere to escape?
>>1831707What question are you asking? The raison detre is to make money.
>>1831709Clearly not, since futures have an expected profit of 0%. In fact, the profit is effectively negative because of the opportunity cost of not investing that money into actual capital which would produce a positive profit albeit meagre.
>>1830822if you serve bourgeois society you are held to no standard of evidence. If you are a socialist you are expected to be an expert in every single field simultaneously.
>>1828519>Love Mao all you want (he was perhaps the greatest liberal democrat of the 20th century after all) but don't pretend he overthrew capitalismApparently attempting to dissolute your own ML State for a classless, moneyless society directly controlled by the proletariet masses is now considered neoliberal capitalist egalitarianism because of thirdworldism
>>1831916>>1831982Ignoring the philosophical drivel at the end, indeed, the state is itself the largest capitalist that enforces and reproduces bourgeois social relations, and each bourgeois state is in competition with other bourgeois states just like bourgeois firms.
Is it unhinged to argue that some people are genetically reactionary?
>>1834135Yes. I mean in theory politics is partly based on genetics but if you start skull measuring you're just gonna look psychotic
>>1834135lmfao absolutely
im not a fascist because of my class position i actually have the reactionary gene
>>1834137>in theory politics is partly based on geneticsuygha wdymmmm
>>1834144I strongly suspect that the bourgeoise are to a large extent selected by genetic traits for anti social behaviour, and as such they should be understood as a parasitic sub-species of human.
>>1834137Does it not bother you how class consciousness seems to rub off some people like water off a leaf? I am struggling to come up with alternative explanations for why some people are so pathologically resistant to Marxist thinking.
>>1834150>they should be understood as a parasitic sub-species of humanlove moralist whining in my 'marxist' analysis
When Stalin said "the blackest reaction", what does "black" mean here? I've heard this quote a million times, but never thought to question what black meant. I guess I just interpreted as "deep"
or entrenched but maybe it means something else?
>>1834858Are you not english first language? "Black" or "dark" has been a way of saying "bad", "scary", etc for a long time. For all i know that was just artistic license from whoever translated the quote, though I wouldnt be surprised if thats a common feature in many languages
I wish socialism worked better than capitalism since my values and principles align almost one to one with socialists, but seeing what happened in practice across the world, it is kind of hard to support it. Even Salvador Allende, the democratically elected leader, had skeletons in his closet. In practice, I guess I have to support social democracy since it's the closest system to socialism without being socialism, and has a functioning base on which it can be focused on providing and leveling everything even for everyone with high equality and high quality of life. If communism worked better than capitalism, then I would 100% support it, but seeing the mixed results just deters me.
This is what youtube proposes to me after listening to this based song:
"Stalin" - Swedish Communist Song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyJWMxfE-lkHow do we fight against the algorithm? Maybe mostly not for us but for others.
>>1835658Same, i keep watching communist music but my only recomendations are fascist larping music
>>1835661recommendations are also based on the views of people in and around your geographic location
>>1835681Makes sense, i should use a VPN to avoid those problems in the future.
>>1835687Where the hell would you set it to?
Even invidious instances are mostly techlord clickbait sponsored shit
>>1834858He meant that it would be enforced by the Sudanese.
>>1834153Parasite is an ecological niche, where is the moralizing?
>>1835661yt recs are unhinged even on a freshly installed windows computer under a new ip. i just completely ignore them and hid the column with an adblocker
What material conditions lead to the AH empire exploding into a billion different nations? In the case of Czechia the different level of industry makes sense, but what about the other ones?
>>1838000They took the "yougoslavia 1000 states" focus tree path. It happened because no player wanted austria hungary, so dividing them into small groups would make it easier to conquer/exploit them and their mineral resources.
Also, ww1, the result was the complete destruction of austria hungary in small states in accordance with the treaty:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungaryhttps://www.theworldwar.org/learn/peace/treaties-signed#:~:text=The Treaty of Saint-Germain,well as part of Poland.
Having concluded terms of peace with Germany, the Allies turned their attention to the remaining former Central Powers. The Treaty of Saint-Germain, signed on September 10, 1919, formally dissolved the Austro-Hungarian Empire and forced the new Republic of Austria to accept the independence of over 60 percent of its former territory. This territory included the new nations of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, as well as part of Poland.
Bulgaria signed the Treaty of Neuilly a couple of months later, losing territory to the new Yugoslavia and all access to the Aegean Sea. Hungary, now an independent state following its separation from Austria less than a month before the Armistice, lost two-thirds of its former territory and 58 percent of its population in the Treaty of Trianon, signed on June 4, 1920.
Thoughts on Charles Péguy?
Is materialist religion possible?
My faith in socialism has been completely, shot, destroyed, kaput. I thought it wouldn't happen again, but my worldview has been completely dismantled and changed. Now the only reason to go to this website is because it disagrees with me slightly less than /pol/ and there's no liberal version of 4chan.
>>1778960People who see the image as egotistical and "braindead" have never been around American midwest working class factory workers. I'm not saying 90%, but the majority of them really do lack critical thought, in my experience. It does make sense when you consider their developmental environment was nothing but cable television, mainstream internet, and American public education. I really struggle to believe they can be rehabilitated.
erm tengo pregunta
Does timekeeping under a socialist system make sense? Obviously better measures of productivity exist, like measuring in bushels for harvesting or number of colors painted for fine artists. Wait, is it *liberal* to track productivity? I am going to kill myself.
Think of jobs that have a time component though, for example a daycare where an adult always needs to be present. Is self-reported time tracking enough? Anyway, looking for shit that talks about productivity tracking in socialist economies. Please help me, it will prevent my suicide.
>no response to my question
I hate leftists
>>1840307There is no one "socialist system". Socialism is an engineering project so to speak. If you've ever seen any engineering project, you'll see that they're vastly different even when they're following highly thought out and precise engineering techniques and principles.
>>1835661I always use channel blocker on everything that is mildly liberal
>>1838894>My faith in socialism has been completely, shot, destroyed, kaput. I thought it wouldn't happen again, but my worldview has been completely dismantled and changed. Now the only reason to go to this website is because it disagrees with me slightly less than /pol/ and there's no liberal version of 4chan.new copypasta dropped
>>1840307>Does timekeeping under a socialist system make sense? yes. r we talkin bout le communist utopia or socialism? either way prob bob. its a real useful tool for meetin up w/ friends or schedulin events. its true its was born outta the need to schedule trade or what not in ancihent eghypt, bu i figure we can keep the cool stuff from the days, like the wheel for example, or fire.
>Wait, is it *liberal* to track productivity? yes
>I am going to kill myself.:(
>Think of jobs that have a time component though, for example a daycare where an adult always needs to be present. Is self-reported time tracking enough? no, i've worked a number of odd jobs across my life, from daycare to beach lifeguard, and the last thing u wanna do on these jobs is keep track of time urself. i'd try to look at my watch as little as possible, it helps time fly. my point is we cant rly on humans for shit like this, especialyl when we can use technology that'll be far less wrong then humans, such as le watch.
>Anyway, looking for shit that talks about productivity tracking in socialist economies. Please help me, it will prevent my suicide.good luck ill do google an b bck
>1841357u mad lil bro
>>1841481no
actually it is even stupider of a statement since you are invoking appeals to authority around empirical science when even those fields of science have strict definitions and criteria for determining what something is and specific principles and techniques for building their designs. like you wouldn't say there is many different ways to apply the laws of physics or something
>>1841487What the actual fuck are you even talking about?
Engineering projects aren't just made by applying "the laws of physics", you silly rabbit.
To construct a bridge, for example, you need to:
- abide by the law, which requires an understanding of the law
- survey the area
- do design and civil engineering plans
- do a cost analysis and get financing
- hire construction workers
- coordinate workers, ensure quality is maintained, safety standards etc
- coordinate acquiring supplies etc and payments
Not only that, engineering projects must constantly reckon with the conditions that are handed down to the people doing the project. A project planned for Some City, Japan, can't simply be copy pasted for Another City, Germany.
In this way, socialism is like an engineering project because it requires reckoning with what one has to work with, and building socialism with that, rather than simply imposing some system.
This is just scratching the surface. Please re-think your post in the light of me saying "engineering projects", and not "doing theoretical physics exercises in class".
was strasser just a racist social democrat?
>>1841517Not even that racist compared to Hitler or worse
>>1841521Talking of which who here knows about the Herero and Nama genocides of 1904 to 1908?
80% and 50% of the population respectively.
>>1841492what is and is not socialist is not open to interpretation, it is beholden to universal standards and necessities. also there is no such thing as unique regional differences in the construction of socialism, that's just laundering in revisionism
that being said, sure perhaps I am > posting and making too many assumptions about what you are saying that were not actually present in your reply so I apologize for that
Judaism seems to claim some form of divine Israelite ownership over the promised 'Land of Israel', a region approximately where Palestine is.
Explain how Judaism does not imply a form of Zionism. Can unconditional anti-Zionism and Judaism be reconciled without just ignoring obvious critical statements in their religious texts?
>>1841524>there is no such thing as unique regional differences in the construction of socialismwhat an absolutely fucking retarded thing to say, downright drooling moron tier
Good state in the US to move to with lax gun laws? Why do liberals have to be so cucked, I just want to live in a big progressive city with my arsenal of assault rifles.
>>1841524>what is and is not socialist is not open to interpretation, it is beholden to universal standards and necessities>also there is no such thing as unique regional differences in the construction of socialismThank you for your reply. I find these two claims two be outrageous. Particularly the second one is not only shocking, but it also makes me doubt you're serious.
What is the root cause that drives the transition from one mode of production to a more advanced one?
>>1846727material condition : technological and/or social innovation, historic circumstance
see how the world works by cockshott to get a good overview
>>1846727material condition : technological and/or social innovation, historic circumstance
see how the world works by cockshott to get a good overview
>>1848001Please dont spam these sexual idpol threads or at least keep it in /siberia/.
>>1848001>is there anything to these allegationsno you fucking idiot lol
>>1848001Rightoids are retarded so they have to blame everything on minorities
>Is there anything to these allegations C'mon man lol
Who was Mikhail Kalinin
Is Zionism a form of white supremacism? And if not, is it really any functionally different?
>>1848269An Old Bolshevik revolutionary and government officer, officially the USSR's head of state, but more of a symbolic thing. Also known for being mistaken for Trotsky.
>>1848276>Is Zionism a form of white supremacism?It's based on supremacy, but it isn't white supremacy.
>is it functionally differentIt's also more specific than supremacy. It's about establishing a 'Jewish homeland' in the Land of Israel. It's obviously functionally different and situationally different, but there are clear similarities and similar behaviors.
>>1846727That the advanced one is more capable, and able to generally out-compete the prior mode of production.
>>1848276It's an ethno state that supposes that jewish people are superior to another race of people and therefore has the right to material goods that already belong to someone. It's not white supremacy but has the same logic behind it. Gaza is probably the largest concentration camp in the world right now so it has a lot in common with Nazi ideology.
Who have the biggest dick between Brigitte and Michelle?
>>1848001>is there anything to these allegations>There are no photos of your mom pregnant>Therefore, your mom is a manSee the flaw here?
Why is this thread still here?
btw, I did know until now, but apparently his mother is Jewish and lost like 30 family members in the holocaust so I sense my shitmail hit him close.
>>1848773because it's useful for decluttering the board
>>1848276idk what the others are talking about, Israel is literally doing forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jews. It's not just Jewish Supremacy or whatever. Race is part of it.
>>1848276Yes it is, Palestinians are closer to the original Jews who had tanned skin like the rest of the Middle East. Therefore all European diasporic 'Jews' should be considered more white than Jewish.
>>1849309This is silly.
Whilst they are very close it is still imprecise to call it White supremacy exactly.
Not everything has to be about or downstream from you, Americans.
Is America a legitimate state or are we just left over invaders from an Empire that we've now replaced?
>>1851634America should balkanize
>>1851634>Is America a legitimate statedpndz wht u mean by this. ig in its origin of the term, nationalism and stateism is largely tied to an ethnic group and a squat of land they declare their own. this idea's even older than Bismarck and ww1 an shit- Nations like "England" ([Anglo]land), "Scotland" (scots), "Ireland", "Desutschland", etc. by these definitions, fuck nah is it a state.
>or are we just left over invaders from an Empire that we've now replaced?even this i hve questions about. u may think that America is simply a land of the English since the thirteen colonies and allat, bu buerland got members from all sorts of ex-Empires livin in its borders- from the French in Lousiana, Spanish in da Southwest, Chinese an shit in California, blacks forcibly brought ova here from slave-tradin African empires, etc.
>>1849462with a snarky greentext
>Communism is when thing I don't like
Does anyone have the book that describes Kruschev meeting Hoxha in Albania and discussing gun control?
>Sergei Witte
According to a book I am reading, the prize, Sergei Witte helped Russian empire achieve tremendous industrialization in the late 1890s to early 1900s. But leftypol told me that only after the revolution there was actually industrialization.
Who is in the wrong here?
>>1854843The early industrial development of tsarist Russia is something the soviets openly accepted and talked about in their history books. Saying Tsarist Russia was industrializing is not wrong, it just doesn't show the whole picture:
1. The cost of this development was paid for with the semi-colonial status of Russia. Up until the revolution, Western shareholders owned huge chunks of the Russian economy.
2. Tsarist industrial development was almost completely destroyed by World War I and the civil war that followed. The devastation of the wars brought it back to a level comparable to the 19th century. Agriculture was also in ruins. The Soviets had to rebuild the economy before they could even discuss industrialization, it was one of the reasons for the NEP.
>>1854868alright, thanks!
>>1851634>a legitimate stateWho decides what is legitimate?
This is a vital question in general. Who decides what legitimate and why should one care.
As for 'state', it's not a word with a single definition, but a common one is whoever has the monopoly on legitimized violence (e.g. police have authority to wrestle you to the ground if the state says they are justified, you can't do the same) and by most definitions, the US is a state.
I believe you're thinking of the "I promise not to get all political" meme format
>>1849284lol
>>1854889Who watches the watchers and other questions the mental infirm ask themselves
>>1841522I thought everyone did.
>>1841618I was under the impression that ultra-orthodox Jews don't nominally get along with Zionists because they're supposed to return to Palestine after the moschiach.
>>1848326Didn't the Nazis end up picking a lot of views from the Zionists? E.g. degenerate art. Nazism then is really just German Zionism.
>>1855749Is the other way around. Modern Zionism was influenced by German nationalist Blut und Boden shit and the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis in the lead up to the war.
>>1858098>ussr was not socialismyes nothing is ever socialism, socialism can not exist in reality ! now back to work prole !
>>1858186this capitalist country is socialism actually, stop asking for more prole
am i funny yet XD
did kurt cobain kill himself ?
What do the right wing thinks of the spanish civil war
>>1860561>What do the right wing thinks of the spanish civil warThe church did nothing wrong.
10000000 dead nuns! :'(
>>1859552Also, does Libya Gaddafi counts ?
>>1858098That is private property so no.
Worker coops are not socialism because they're still driven by profit. Nationalization is more "socialist" than that because that takes profits away from the owners and moves it to the public. This is why Marx was against coops. This is libarchist bullshit.
>>1785847>neoliberalism actually doesnt existFellas is this true?
What the fuck even is neoliberalism?
>>1841618 The majority of more traditional sects of judaism tend to subscribe to the idea that returning to canaan is forbidden so long as the messiah hasn't come
How do nationalizations happen? I mean does the state buy the company or just sieze it?
Let's say the Thames Water company. How is the price decided? If the company is about to collapse then the state can buy it with peanuts but if it isn't the price set by the company would be huge (why would they sell if it's a fine company?)
But then, I have witnessed in Greece, the public electricity company got privatisation for peanuts. Then the stock went 10 times higher. I feel it got done by sold of politicians. If say there is going to be nationalization, how does it occur?
Any articles around the topic?
>>1862368>What the fuck even is neoliberalism?Economic policy where you privatize as much as possible and cut social welfare spending. Basically as close to ancap society as you can get IRL. They tend to get there slowly to avoid pissing people off too much at once.
>>1863233>How do nationalizations happen? I mean does the state buy the company or just sieze it?Both can happen. It depends on context. Buying the company is more socdem behavior. Seizing it is more revolutionary.
>>1863233Usually nationalisations in social democracy happen with the owners being paid a somewhat fair market price for the company, sometimes the government pays too much just to get the deal done, and other times they twist the arm of the company with legal measures to pay less than market value.
Often nationalisation in the modern day is only done to companies that are already in financial trouble or bankrupt which means the government can get a decent price. Usually the government will end up selling the company later at a loss though. As you have observed 90% of the time when a company is privatised it's done at a private auction which only wealthy donors/bankers can buy the stock at much less than what it's worth, since as we know the state is captive to the bourgeois. Surely some of that money saved finds its way back into the pockets of politicians.
If the government is socialist or left-nationalist then companies will sometimes be nationalised with no compensation (especially foreign companies), this is obviously a good deal for the government but it leads to endless crying from the bourgeois (even moreso than a regular nationalisation) and might get the country embargoed or sanctioned or otherwise fucked with by the bourgeois nations.
So basically it depends on the circumstances, but no capitalist nation will ever nationalise without compensation generally speaking since this goes against the interests of the bourgeois.
>>1863239I am wondering if they can be nationalized without compensation if the companies didnt manage to do what they promised. I assume all that has to do with legal stuff. But has ever been decided, that the price of privatization was too low and thats why porky has to pay more or to give the company back.
I wanna find historical examples that showing that when privatization happens on too low fake price due to corruption that had eventually repercussions for investors too. But maybe I am too optimistic..
Me having read absolutely nothing beyond the manifesto, I am wondering about something. And in fact it is something I am wondering for years but I have not put my arse to get it.
I see people calling others as 'Trotskyists' and the word certainly has a bad connotation. What did Trotsky did that came out to be bad? Or what did Trotskyists did that ended up bad? What is the difference in the thought?
The way I get it so far, he either did something traitorous OR whoever is a troskyist dislikes Stalin because of Stalin being Stalin and this is bad because without Stalin being Stalin capitalists/fascists eventually win.
Please ELIRetard it to me. I did sometimes tried to read wikipedia on the subject but I didnt end up understanding the difference after 10 minutes of focus…
>>1858098If you mean collectively owned in a broad sense and not literally the workers in one factory owning that specific factory.
>>1862071>Nationalization is more "socialist"<But of late, since Bismarck went in for State-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen, degenerating, now and again, into something of flunkyism, that without more ado declares all State-ownership, even of the Bismarkian sort, to be socialistic. Certainly, if the taking over by the State of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of Socialism.
<If the Belgian State, for quite ordinary political and financial reasons, itself constructed its chief railway lines; if Bismarck, not under any economic compulsion, took over for the State the chief Prussian lines, simply to be the better able to have them in hand in case of war, to bring up the railway employees as voting cattle for the Government, and especially to create for himself a new source of income independent of parliamentary votes — this was, in no sense, a socialistic measure, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously. Otherwise, the Royal Maritime Company, the Royal porcelain manufacture, and even the regimental tailor of the army would also be socialistic institutions, or even, as was seriously proposed by a sly dog in Frederick William III's reign, the taking over by the State of the brothels. t. Engels
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
>Marx was against coops<Nor have Marx and I ever doubted that, in the course of transition to a wholly communist economy, widespread use would have to be made of co-operative management as an intermediate stage. Only it will mean so organising things that society, i.e. initially the State, retains an ownership of the means of production and thus prevents the particular interests of the co-operatives from taking precedence over those of society as a whole.letter from Engels to Bebel, January 1886
Would the USSR have survived if they had focused in light industry and making quality CONSOOMER goods?
>>1867491Trotsky lost in the governmental power struggle to Stalin and criticized Stalin's government, and is accused of giving ideological ammunition/cover to fascists. Trotskyists have a tendency to be very sectarian and there's a history of Trots transitioning to more reactionary positions.
That's the extremely simple version. Trotsky and Trotskyists have also made significant contributions to Communist ideology so I wouldn't recommend rejecting them totally out of hand.
>>1867643>Trotskyists have a tendency to be very sectarian and there's a history of Trots transitioning to more reactionary positions. For what it's worth, there are two orgs where I live, which are both nominally the exact same branch of Trotskyism, yet act
completely differently (one group being the stereotypical backstabbing sectarian leeching culty pieces of crap, the other working hand in hand with every group they can, with notable union presence and organizing meaningful direct actions).
So if you're talking about people rather than schools of thought, you can't just judge by the label… most of the time.
>>1867637 Engels is just wrong here. While it is true that state ownership is not a sufficient condition for socialism, the state military tailor is more socialist than a private clothe manufacturer, as the former produces commodities for their use value and not surplus extraction.
>>1867491Trotskyists are interesting in that they're not only hated by Stalinists. Because Trotskyist parties love attempting entryism in socdem parties, there's often a strong loathing for them there too.
For example in the UK it's a vocal tic of labour-aligned centrists and journalists (
especially those who were active in student politics) to call all left wing activists, corbyn supporters, or basically anyone to their left a "trot" because in the 1980s the Trotskyist Militant Tendency made a high-profile attempt to infiltrate the party - although with hindsight it seems probable that their influence, while not insubstantial, was overstated by the right and the press to attack the non-entryist leftists like the Bennites.
(in one bizarre incident in 2007 this went as far as Gordon Brown accusing Tony Blair of "fucking Trotskyism!" because it seemed like a Blair-ally would run against him for the party leadership, which he wanted to win uncontested.)
>>1867757Both Adam Smith and Marx would agree that some personal servant whose job is to make the life of his employer more convenient is just paid out of the employer's revenue and the servant is not generating surplus value himself. That doesn't mean the relationship between the servant and his employer is socialist.
How does a Central Planned Economy overcome the ineffiency problem?
>>1867776That is a socialist relation of production and would exist under socialism for example with kindergarten workers.
>>1867816Suppose that in the near future slavery gets fully legalized in the US, and Bill Gates will then own somebody as his personal sex slave. Would you say the relationship between Gates and his sex slave is socialist?
>>1867819No that would be palace economy or patriarchal relation.
>>1867812Beatings until you come up with a better idea.
Get to it.
>>1867912>>1867812>efficiencyBoth of you stand by the wall for reproducing capitalist relations.
>>1867948>efficiency is capitalistwtf
>>1867999>seeking the minimum conditions of reproduction isn't specifically capitalistYes, "Marxian political economy" is just capitalism stripped of all its veils. You're not getting any socialism points by recapitulating the formation of neoliberalism or its necropolitics.
How do i work qnd study harder and better? Any tips for that?
>"When the savage makes bows, he exercises an industry, but he does not practice abstinence." — Nassau Senior
As quoted in Capital Volume II. what does "abstinence" mean here?
>>1868035Swallow your pride, lose the ego, sit down with the book and say "I will read two pages today." And do that and don't do anything more.
>>1868349that is too much man, i think i will try this new cool thing called "prostitution". It gives a lot of pogger money.
>>1868380I still don't get it I'm sorry ┐(´д`)┌whaat does it mean to be "remunerated by interest?"
>>1868875Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC it's a contribution to loanable funds doctrine, and a gesture toward moralizing usury. Interest is seen by Senior as a reward for deferring consumption, marshmallow test ideology.
<The abstinence theory of interest asserts that the money used for lending purposes is the money not used for consumption – which means, earning interest by abstaining from spending makes the funds possible and available for borrowers.[1]
Offtopic but does anyone know any good free ai art generators? I keep end up using Bing lmao.
How well do you think the far-right are going to do in teh euro elections, anons?
>>1872878If you have a half-decent GPU, you can just DIY with stable diffusion.
Was there a point in the history of the USSR where commodity production became generalized? For this question I am excluding the final decade or so of the Union's existence.
Is the concept of "globohomo" a critique of capitalism?
Why is Anarchism a petty bourgeois movement?
I am a socialist and not an anarchist, not because it is petty bourgeois but because it is scientifically incomplete and relies on idealist concepts such as "the state"
However I see many writers calling Anarchism a petty bourgeois movement, such as Lenin:
>Of the various socialist doctrines, Marxism is now predominant in Europe, the struggle for the achievement of a socialist order being almost entirely waged as a struggle of the working class under the guidance of the Social-Democratic parties. This complete predominance of proletarian socialism grounded in the teachings of Marxism was not achieved all at once, but only after a long struggle against all sorts of outworn doctrines, petty-bourgeois socialism, anarchism, and so on. Some thirty years ago, Marxism was not predominant even in Germany, where the prevailing views of the time were in fact transitional, mixed and eclectic, lying between petty-bourgeois and proletarian socialism. The most widespread doctrines among advanced workers in the Romance countries, in France, Spain and Belgium, were Proudhonism, Blanquism and anarchism, which obviously expressed the viewpoint of the petty bourgeois, not of the proletarian.
I of course also see it used on the internet, but with a lack of context it strikes me as just a socialist insult. Can someone point me towards any letters on what makes Anarchism petty bourgeois?
>>1875959"globohomo" is a reactionary version of the theory of homonationalism, minus the critique of capitalism. that is to say, with the critique of capitalism homonationalism can be understood as the internaction between a culture and community (the LGBT) and the empire it lives under (NATO/Western hegemony). Without the critique of capitalism, homonationalism appears as "globohomo", a secret plot by
(((them))) to make everybody gay.
>>1876084>petty-bourgeoisThat group is over-represented in political groups across the board.
>it strikes me as just a socialist insultIt is.
>>1876084this is pure conjecture but im p sure it goes back to Bakunin saying revolution would come from the countryside and peasantry and not the urban proletariat and that at least in the context of european revolutions anarchist typically did best in rural areas where many of petty boug that would normally be swallowed up by big capitalists still manage to exist. Additionally anarchists are less likely to employ nationalization and/or state monoplies than other socialists. So what we're left with is a movement that does well in the same region that the petty boug does and is also less likely to really do anything to their business than other socialist groups. I suppose an example would narodniks and SRs typically leaving upper peasants, handicraftsman or other really petty petty boug alone while the bolshleviks took a more hands on approach. I wouldn't go far as to say anarchism comes out of the petty-bourgeois but anarchists and the petty-boug do share a key feature in common which is that both groups think they can restore pre-capitalist (or in the case of the petty-boug a version of late fuedalism-early capitalism that exists solely within there own heads) agrarian relationships to fight modern industrial capitalism which in turn leads to them constantly getting fucked over by people who aren't trying to return to the past. Of course this all pure conjecture based on what little reading I've done, if you want to understand the ML critique of anarchism/ultra shit better lenin's critiques of Kronstandt are p good place to start.
>>1879131The framing of "lend-lease" is the issue. The Soviet Union would have won without it, but lend-lease allowed the Red Army to massively speed up its operational timeline. Also you can double-check this, but by 1942 going in 43 a majority of the German units on the Eastern front were not fit for offensive operations according Wehrmacht's reports. Military History Visualized has a video on it.
>>1868035Check the DSM-5 for if you fit the criteria of ADHD disorder. It's broader than just impulsivity so like if you can focus on a game for 14 hours straight but can't read 2 pages of a book without pacing around your room, that's a sign.
>but then I'll be a zombie!No. That's bullshit fear mongering from regressive conservatives who try to tie it to their obsession with beating children.
>>1868349this is good advice. i also suggest reading physical books with a pen, even just underlining phrases and summarizing passages in your own words makes studying much more engaging
Is there any explicit mention of labor vouchers in the works of Kautsky, Lenin, Bukharin?
>>1879131why bother? if they're gonna ignore all the support germany had, you might as well do the same with the USSR
When does anti-Zionism cross into antisemitism? Like if you say "kill all Israelis" is that going too far? Does it change from antisemitism to anti-Zionism by just replacing the word "Jew" with "Israeli"?
>>18803174/pol/ nazi coping…
coping and seething…
coping so hard!
>>1880322I'm not, I'm just confused about the whole thing. A lot of Israelis are probably 2nd or 3rd gen immigrants already, they didn't choose to be born there, and I hear a lot of them hate their government anyway. Why should they all die? What should they do anyway, just move to another country that hates them just as much?
>>1880323>What should they do anyway, just move to another country that hates them just as muchthey should stop doing genocide and, like, stop killing people, i know it is hard, but they should try it.
>>1880326How is the average Israeli complicit in that though?
>>1880317never does because zionism is already antisemitic
>>1880327I mean, if they aren't complicit, they should not be punished.
Like, think of it as the nuremberg trial. Some people got hanged and shoot because they had a direct involvment in genocide, others were arrested and worked in rehabilitation camps, others worked in the reconstruction process, etc.
Everyone will be judged individually, that is what is most likely to do, not like "kill them all just because they are israelis" or something.
>>1880317>Does it change from antisemitism to anti-Zionism by just replacing the word "Jew" with "Israeli"?What a stupid thing to say. Yes, changing the subject of a sentence changes the meaning of a sentence.
<Does it change from antisemitism to sinophobia by just replacing the word "Jew" with "Chinese"?
>When does anti-Zionism cross into antisemitism?When the subject isn't Zionism. That is, never.
If a person is anti-Zionist and anti-semetic, that's 2 distinct positions, even if they have the same dumb reason for it.
>Like if you say "kill all Israelis" is that going too far?It's an unnuanced take, but it's not antisemetic at all.
>>1880323>move to another country that hates them just as muchsurprisingly, you're not quite as much hated when you dont steal land and enforce an apartheid state with mass killing
>>1880323>why should they all die?you said that, not us. zionism is genocidal and projects that onto the palestinians, assuming "from the river to the sea" is a code word for annihilating the israelis. the same is done with the landback movement in the usa. people think it's about getting the white people but it's not of course. these are national liberation movements. people make comparisons to South African Apartheid for a reason. Back in the 90s the boers were saying the same thing, that the africans wanted to kill them all (rather than fighting for human rights)
>>1828535I think of fucking trots every night.
What were the thoughts of the soviet union and communist countries in general about administrative and managerial systems? Like, i am studying in Uni stuff like "business models" and "operational/strategic/managerial management".
How did the Soviet Union, like, teach this kind of stuff, was it different from capitalist countries, did they teach this at all, or they consider those kinda stuff just bullshit?
>>1880710 (me)
Btw, i probably asked this same question some weeks before, i think i remember doing it, but forgot the awnser
Has anyone refuted the pack of lumpens hypothesis so far?
>>1880317>kill all israelisThe only people saying this are the nazoid larpers like you.
i know this is weird but, what is the best books and resources to learn about learning ?.
Why there is basically no "anarchist multipolarists"?
>>1887097because they dont believe in states
>>1887101well, in the practical context, that view seems to lack nuance to it. All states are "bad" and you cannot "believe" in them, but some states are better than others….
>>1887101>>1887097Tbh it's mainly because they dont understand that a strong yuan is a weak dollar and that international economic competition will weaken the accursed western states to a barely functional level if not into complete collapse. Some "anarchists" are more loyal to the west than to the third world and this causes the discrepancy - they want the rest of the anarchist currents to follow the predominant CIAnarchist party platform - against the state as long as it's ML but for it as long as it's capitalist and gives treats to labor aristocrats. That's why i describe myself as an anarchist multipolarist, because it is exactly what the left needs right now, and unfortunately Z glowies arent gonna convince anybody to be left agorists…
I need to go to work tomorrow, but i dont feel motivated. What should i do? I will probably need to not sleep today so i can finish the project i am doing and do a presentation about it tomorrow. Being serious.
Outside of reddit-tier socialist circles, what are the general thoughts on Settlers by J. Sakai? American Leftists seem to think its ultra important and kind of worship it.
Are employee stock ownership plans socialist?
>>1890418The first half of settlers is true. The founding fathers were tyrants. The second half where it talks about 1900s politics is false.
>>1890472Yes because giving workers the option to work at a coop instead of a corporation enables the lower class to engage in better and more profitable primitive wealth accumulation with less maintenance and less responsibilities with better benefits. It appals me that "socialists" would say anything to the contrary.
>>1890954Not even you are gonna make me read Settlers.
>>1880710Lenin and the Soviets praised the Taylorism (viz. Fordist management), and imported it to the newly-founded USSR. As Kojeve says, Henry Ford was the greatest 20th century Marxist.
>>1879131It was only a tiny fraction of Soviet GDP, and arrived after many of the decisive battles were fought on the Eastern front.
>>1890418Revisionist book. And, look up J. Sakai fed lore.
>>1879131I fail to see the problem. lend lease was obviously helpful. it shows what can be done when nations work together towards a common goal
there's a political cartoon from WW2 era depicting the nazi leaders hitler, goebbels and goering as a bunch of drunk street hooligans. goebbels in particular is monkey perched on goering's shoulder I think. does anyone have this artwork? It is very funny to me.
>>1892173>https://www.marxists.org/english.htmAnon marxists.org articles are not editable, it does not have a tag system, it does not allow for downloading in multiple formats per book/zine/article such as in PDF, EPUB or .TEX, and it does not even allow Anonymous uploads, fuck, having just checked it does not give the option to download any articles, it's just .html pages unless they've happened to upload a .pdf separately.
It's a 90's tier website which they've put no effort in to, no offense, it is a useful resource but these people really should be more interested in sharing and archiving their works than the slap-dash effort that is marxists.org.
>>1892290>It's a 90's tier websitethat's why it's great. fuck you and your websoy ideas
>>1892331<noo you have to use my archaic systemFine. I'll make it myself you fags.
>>1892342Be careful, the Marx/Engels Collected Works are under copyright. (A translation gets full copyright duration like a brand-new work, no matter how old the original is.) And the current MECW owners sued marxists.org to take them down. The old translation of Das Kapital by Aveling is public domain and there are a few pieces by Marx/Engels that were already in English in their original form.
Can someone expand on "withering away of the state"? Does it mean "state" as in "nation state" or does it equate it to the government? I'm asking this in regards to non-market socialism, as I don't think it can work without central planning that would inevitably require government apparatus of some sort.
>>1892485People who use the latter definition usually propose some kind of "I can't believe it's not a state!" to solve this issue
>>1892485Its commented on by engels and lenin but isnt really elaborated on (where the state is said to be simply the mechanism of power by which one class controls another). Marx also makes allusion to this in regards to his critique of hegel's philosophy of right and "on the jewish question" (where in hegel's philosophy of right, he identifies 2 aspects of social existence, civil society and political life - the public and the state).
Marx's criticism is that both create eachother in mutual alienation (where the "external" state is a sublimity of civil society). He uses this example in the jewish question where he says that in terms of historical progress and lived experience, judaism exists in civil society, as the private relations of capitalism, governed by greed and selfishness, where christianity is upheld in the state, to give the impression of morality over its internal debasement. Here, the state in its movement of the concrete to the abstract (a hegelian method of alienation, or the self-othering of substance), obscures the essential relation of christianity to judaism in kind.
And likewise, the state depends upon the society it seemingly "governs" (when marx's point is perhaps that it is in fact society that determines politics). This then has reference to how the base determines the superstructure. So the falseness of the state here is in how it obscures its relation to society. The state is not a neutral entity, but a sublimity of private relations - thus the state under capitalism is still a capitalist state (or dictatorship of the bourgeoisie - this is also why the state =/= socialism).
Marx's resolution at the end of the jewish question is that to abolish judaism, its essential conditions must also be overcome, which would also undo christianity. So marx's point is that the state arises from the inception of class domination, so for the state to disappear, so must class society.
The self-abolition of the state is a trickier question. Some imagine that if the state as a technical mechanism is made purely democratic then it esteems to being a tool rather than being the basis of exploitation. This could pair with marx's critique of hegel, where he would see that the aim is to abolish the civil society and the state by a sublation of each toward their immediacy; where man is both citizen and political actor and so is self-created.
>>1892496>So marx's point is that the state arises from the inception of class domination, so for the state to disappear, so must class society.That's what I could come up with.
Kinda similar to labour vouchers under dotp and money under capitalism not being exactly the same from the Marxist perspective while being the same in common perception.
>also why the state =/= socialismDidn't Lenin come to define socialism as basically dotp?
>>1892510Yes, but the dotp is the political self-determination of the proletariat in kind, also. The dialectical point about state and class representation is that the socialist state must be inherently different from the capitaliat state. The state is not a neutral externality, but is the symbol of any society (where the state broadly represents the society's sekf-referential "totem").
The idea of the eternal state threatening to undermine a "natural" egalitarianism is what i would call anarchist essentialism. The dialectical refrain would be to enquire where the state comes from in the first place - the marxist answer would be that it comes from class domination (where the state in itself must represent surplus generated from an exploited underclass).
Engels' point about family structures are also relevant here where he would say that the nuclear family is a creation of the bourgeois class relation, rather than being the free relation of familial members. Here then, the macrocosm of the state is generated from its particularity in the family structure. This is the way that any system naturalises its relations.
>>1892461Well I was prototyping it with an .onion. I guess i'll just have to find some ambivalent host for clearnet.
Thanks though anon, you potentially saved me a real problem or scary letter.
What is the best version of Das Kapital to upload? The one you mentioned, or?
>>1892485the state is a tool of class oppression. if there are no classes then there is no state. simple as
Why didn't the Soviet Union just kill the Tsar quickly? The Romanovs got rekt almost a year into the civil war.
Sure, killing them didn't stop the war, but wouldn't it have been worth trying as soon as the White Army became a real threat?
>>1892669He was supposed to go on public trial. Also just killing him is a bad look while he could be exchanged for some prefferences with entente.
Is saying "fascism is just capitalism in decay", "fascism and nazism have nothing of special, no much difference than any empire at the time" and "fascism has never gone away, it is just the current status quo. To be an antifascist, you need first to be anticapitalist" considered nazi apologia, minimizing the consequences of nazism?
>>1892742>minimizing the consequences of nazismIt just brings you up to speed on the general cruelty of capitalism.
>>1891935the lend lease cope not referring to the general fact of the matter, but the lend lease
cope referring to specifically the idea that the USSR would have been destroyed without american help, even though american capitalists bankrolled the nazis in the first place, and west european countries ignored the rise of fascism and refused to enter into collective security with the USSR
>>1892742Read Fascism and Social Revolution by Rajani Palme Dutt. That guy was in the CPGB and recognizing these facts as early as 1936
>>1893965and what he thought like, after WW2?
>>1892742I think they're idealistic slogans which rely on unconstructive misdefinitions of fascism and nazism. But there is some wisdom in them.
Nazism, and Fascism, are subsets of capitalism. They should not be considered distinct, just like Social Democracy of the nordic model shouldn't be considered distinct. Nazism is obviously atrocious, but the main reason we see it as the ideal villain is a result of Western propaganda during and post-WWII, and that the USSR just couldn't be compared at all (otherwise it would hold the same place in our society). Imperial Japan, for example, doesn't get held in the same light despite comparable-if-not-worse atrocities like Unit 731. But they were our ally against gommunism, so we forgive them!
>>1894118I don't think fascism is comparable to the Nordic model, the Nordic model is a state policy whereas Fascism is a form of organization, like how the bourgeois republic can be parliamentary or presidential. Fascist states can issue certain social democratic policies, what sets them apart is the discipline they demand of the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie is fine with committing atrocities against the proletariat and the colonies even under a liberal republic. For example Germany prior to fascism was sending death squads against Communists, waging imperialist war, and planning ethnic cleansing in German South West Africa. What differentiates fascism is that even the bourgeoisie, which usually likes to compete in the political arena at home, decides that it needs to adhere to strict discipline in order to get out of the crisis that they face and wage unrelenting war against the proletariat at home and abroad without distracting each other over their comparatively inconsequential disagreements.
I think Japan is a key example for this, even under their Taisho democratic system the Communists were being hunted down and imperial ambitions were embraced. The bourgeoisie was completely fine with the emerging fascist state, there was not any real distinct line drawn in real policy. The institutions were even the same by and large. The only difference was that, before, different bourgeois parties were free to publicly bicker about their petty differences, whereas later, they realized they needed strict unity to most effectively wage the same imperialist and class war they were already pursuing.
This is why bourgeois historians will often point to how not everything was privatized under Hitler. Of course, if the bourgeoisie liked something nationalized before, they probably won't want it changed just because a different guy is in charge. They still have the same influence and interests.
>>1894138Nordic model is probably the closest thing we have to Germany and Italy with corporatism, class collaboration, and all that.
I racebait against wh*Toids. That is stupid, right? Tell me why so I can stop it.
>>1894443classbait against porkies instead
>>1894975From a materialist and class perspective, it's nonsense. Capitialist don't forgo profit on behalf of sentimentalities, especially now that capitalists rarely run corporations.
I only remember two mentions of invisible hand by Adam Smith. The first (the more well-known) is that people make goods and services for another as if they personally cared about the people they supply, even if they only care about themselves, coordinated by the market. The second is that people trust outsiders less, so even without the state following protectionist trade policy, it's like an invisible hand implementing that. (You might lose points for writing that.)
>>1894988gibberish post
>>1894975belongs in QTDDTOT
>>296564>the invisible hand>good/badspooks
>>1894975As a concept? I think it's something of nothing economists say to justify number go up or number go down when they're doing paid News appearances.
It's the hand of allah
I do not think. I know.
Chop it off
>>1894975It doesn’t work if there isn’t a government (or any other centralized authority for that after) that doesn’t force it to. Free markets can only exist in an environment where ever person in it can expect to have absolutely zero arbitrary restrictions on what they do to participate in their economy—so you can exclude most of the planets population that’s stuck under oppression of oligarchs, chauvinism, colourism, racism, landlordism, and hierarchies—where every person has the resources to manipulate markets anyways—which again you can rule out most of the planet’s population for the reason mentioned earlier and also the cost of running a business—and where every person in it is willing to compete in a meritocratic and legal fashion to provide the best products for their customers—which almost never happens without a regulatory system in place.
Personally, I’m in favour of the theory, because there are real-world examples of its goals being realized. However, it is simply an economic theory whose application is limited by today’s politics. Actually reaching a real global free market would require a lot of social reforms that many elites (and unfortunately proles) either don’t want or actively fight against.
>>1894450Give me examples of classbaits? It's actually a great idea.
panopticon test #nojoke #koolaid #raisins
thank you for your patience, carry on
>>1894975It was not an argument that the "invisible hand" was moral or just or an intelligent planner in its own right. To really get what is referenced you'd have to be able to reconstruct how someone in Adam Smith's time, position, and interests would think served his interests. I can't really summarize that here, but others have adequately answered what was immediately meant by the statement, about supply and demand in a market setting.
That market setting only existed under highly specific conditions - everyone agreed with this, the liberals, the conservatives, the Marxists, the Austrofascists, understood a free market only exists in specific conditions of law. The latter were openly for abolishing capital - the Road to Serfdom was not a warning, but a guidebook for what their filthy hearts desired. Among those conditions is that there is an implied regulatory role of intelligence and the people who form the intelligentsia - the university, in our time. The intelligent do not regulate the system by conspiracy as a more foolish person would presume, but operate with awareness of the society they're in and how it would function in its ideal conditions. Those ideal conditions never exist, and are never expected to exist. In short, clearly maladaptive policies that would destroy the society that makes this possible would be averted by lawmakers and institutions which are not subjected to market discipline directly. The university was among the few institutions granted specific exemption from the influence of capital, for this to work in any way that would not turn on itself. All of the people writing about free trade or capitalism understood that this wasn't a "self-regulating system" or anything like that, and this continued all the way to the early 20th century. The invocation of a "self-regulating system" is reactionary German philosophy becoming more prominent, the thinking of the Nazis and biopolitics. It's something that would only be invoked for those selected to die, to naturalize the death that Nazism and eugenics entailed. The liberal example of this would be Malthus asking explicitly for the plague to return, except in that case, he just says it and takes pride in it, and is in a position to do so. If that logic were applied to the favored classes and interest, it would quickly cannibalize them and leave them with nothing - the ruin of the contending interests.
>>1894997"Most cases" is not actually "most cases", as if the market activity were default. They're really speaking of how this would operate without natural fetters, rather than assuming nature itself worked in this way. Nature very clearly had no concept of a market or any natural justice regarding those exchanges.
In the past, industry was still relatively simple. The products and the tools to make them were ubiquitous enough and common knowledge. Industry during the 19th century was considerably advanced compared to the past, but they were still dealing with freely reproducible widgets primarily, and the most complicated technological platforms were artillery pieces and the gradual buildup of military technology that worked against the formation of mass armies. Eventually, the supply chain for the military overtook - deliberately as it was planned in the 20th century - the prior imperial thinking which emphasized producing low quality goods like opium and driving down living conditions.
The idea that this system "worked ideally" was not something liberal theory believed. Smith's particular claim wasn't a mathematical one but a moral one - that is, the only reason we have this economic life is because on some level, command of labor was what was valued as opposed to the goods in of themselves. Beyond that, stock and capital, once established, don't really have anything to do with labor, beyond the need of keeping labor subdued for the situation to continue. They are beholden to division of labor just as industry would be, but the stock of capital is entirely alienated from labor. That's the point, and they didn't suggest this was wrong or unexpected. It does cut both ways, since the capitalist and proprietor have to operate under the same conditions as anyone else, but they don't value their labor in the abstract in the way Marx's theory of surplus value worked. Marx was looking at capital in this way to deconstruct what actually happens - or did happen - when this setup operates for a sufficient length of time. The rich and comfortable seek either permanent assets, or stable salaries that are not tethered to any market discipline. Since when have managers been obligated to toil like the workers? It is the exact opposite - a manager does his job most effectively by flaunting his impunity and shmoozing, distinguishing him from the peons.
>>1899235Let me put the "invisible hand" another way - given sufficient knowledge of resource inflows and outflows, a social engineer planning the economy would probably obviate the market altogether, rather than insist "the market will think for me". The reason that didn't happen in capitalism is because the capitalists isn't planning anything for the little guy, and none of them trust another capitalist to think for them. The existence of such a planning bureau would have been instinctively a political menace to be avoided. But, some general plan would be discerned by anyone who thinks about it for five minutes. If you are tasked with political leadership of a city or large firm, you reasonably expect to know what happens under your roof, and aren't blind, so the "invisible hand" becomes very visible with your record-keeping, and your behavior will adjust in accord with that. By that point though, it's solely concerned with the objects that are produced, rather than the productive process or a self-perpetuating idea of capital. It would apply to here and now, but not to all future situations. It would not be a "rule of nature", but a rule of what happens when things are traded freely, absent anything like technological advance or political developments that aren't part of the market.
>>1899010based and holy spirit pilled
question, why does it feel no one in here talks, or even mention, the school of frankfurt?
>>296564Did Bordiga just proclaim himself to be"more leninist than Lenin"? Did he just use "Leninism" as a substitute for radicalism or what?
Also what is Bordiga's appeal? I, admittedly, didn't read a lot of his works, but I didn't find anything outstanding so far. Some of them are cool, but that's about it.
>>1899236Invisible hand up your ass
>>1901466Jews were historically middlemens and this background favorise the emergence of people working in the intellectual domain in general and cultural production in particular.
>>19014661). simple confirmation bias, thats like 15 guys in an entire industry. You could make the same graphic but with irish people cuz ppl literally do all the time(picrel). That being said another explanation is that many of the Jews who immigrated to the US were filmmakers and other creatives involved in the German expressionist movement who decided to get the fuck out of dodge for obvious reasons. This in turn led to a sudden influx of Jewish filmmakers in young Hollywood. Nail Salons and Vietnamese people would be another example of a bunch of intersecting trends leading to a specific business being dis-proportionally ran by an ethnicity.
Nazi posters can only think in terms of them being a protagonist and everything else being an NPC or Orc so the idea that minorities aren't just evil to be evil or there being greater causes for events other than a nefarious conspiracy only they can stop is completely foreign to them.
2). If your not the ethnic/religious minority of a nation than most if not all of the super structural/propaganda shit that exists just isn't for you. Some Ashkenazi guy in the Pale who just got his house burned down by cossacks isn't gonna be super receptive of a greater russian identity or national project quite the opposite actually. You can see a similar dynamic with the disproportionate amount of Kurds in the Turkish Left.
>>1901709I don't think any accelerationist has ever accelerated anything in the first place,they just point out to something happening slowly but surely (that they have no power to stop nor enable) and say it's good actually and "it should be worse !"
it doesn't will anything to action in itself.
>>1901721so it's the performative embrace of the inevitable
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