This thread is for the discussion of infrared and their heterodox view of Marxism-Leninism.
Infrared is a collective group, with Haz being the leader(? or atleast the one in control of their youtube/twitter/etc.)
From my observation they draw a lot of influences from Martin Heidegger, Aleksandr Dugin, Alexandre Kojève, Jacques Lacan, Nick Land, Slavoj Zizek and so on and so on.
>What's this guys deal?-Anglo man bad
-Marxism is NOT a western ideology
-Merkel is a based anti-imperialist
-socialism is when china does stuff
-we already live in socialism
-socialism is actually like feudalism
-O N T O L O G I C A L
Youtube Channel -
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl63ZOm_bepvwoKjw24rogATwitter -
https://twitter.com/ShowInfrared>>1842>nail down a concrete position/policy that defines their ideologyEurasian-marxism, maupianism, Bookchinism
<explain what exactly the appeal is (other than novelty/memes)he noticed us idklol
>>1843Unironically this hahahahaha.
From what I understand, the idea is that there is a worker "geist" that must be channeled for real change. Marxism is just the ordering of that geist, it shouldn't be applied to the geist.
For example if we take a WSWS article I was laughing at in another thread:
>What the workers do, what those of you in the audience decide to do, is the critical issue. The [burger trotksyists] can advance and fight for a revolutionary socialist program. But that program must be taken up by the working class. From what I understand, this exemplifies the failure of western marxists to "get" the marxist project. This is like the most vulgar form of imposition of marxist dogma to the masses. Infrared's criticism is that basically all western socialists do this to some degree.
>>1850all interner/trash/ belongs in
>>>/b/ tbh
but at the same time you'll probably get lots of porn
>>1852didn't he literally say fuck leftypol though, that its retarded and hes never coming here again?
Besides im not gonna suck off some youtuber just because he lurks or even if he streams the site to his dozens of viewers
>>188050% Based
30% schizo
20% BDE
100% Unstoppable
sandinistaSandinista >>1887>>1880Is this guy gonna become the schizo/ML/dengist-eurocom version of Vaush/Destiny?
BTW the whole destiny/vaush inspired MS paint bullshit is lazy, if you want a diagram do it in a slideshow presentation thats premade.
I'm not spending my precious remaining time on this earth watching some dude make stick figures. have some production values and brevity you hacks
>>1896>your ideology hasn't accomplished anything (allegedly, I guess he doesn't know about the history of class struggle in the west?)>all you do is read books and get too attached to dogma>therefore, you should listen to my brand new ideology that definitely hasn't accomplished anything yet by my own criterion>also if you disagree with me you're an idiot who doesn't understand the readingThis is an open and shut case of projection tbqh.
>You have a duty and obligation to give people the benefit of the doubt.>Who do I give the benefit of the doubt?>Libertarians>Nazbols>Dugin>Nick LandAnd yet they don't give the benefit of the doubt to anybody who is mildly skeptical of them from an actually left wing perspective. What about these guys is actually left wing other than choosing to label themselves ML?
Has he commented on historical materialism? It sounds like he doesn't agree with it, since he's diagnosing the left's problem in the west as dogmatic ideology rather than anything material like atomization or precarity getting in the way of workers' power.
>>1896>>1898>therefore, you should listen to my brand new ideology that definitely hasn't accomplished anything yet by my own criterion>also if you disagree with me you're an idiot who doesn't understand the reading>This is an open and shut case of projection tbqh.basically. He's right to say western MLs haven't accomplished anything but then he proposes his brand new meme ideology. thats why he has to say "in the west", like the west is the entire world. The reason ML became popular is because it succeeded in overthrowing capitalism in Russia and China and like 45% of the planet at one point.
This guy should come back when he organizes a party that does the same, until then his meme ideology is even more disconnected from the material reality of workers movement than the dogmatic MLs he criticizes because at least at
some point historically ML actually worked as opposed to his bongrip abstract contemplations.
>>1897No matter what you think of them ideologically, in terms of style and condensed autism Haz and his collaborators are the closest /leftypol/ will ever have to a YouTube content creator molded after their collective image. Even the people who hate him on here do not really hate him I think because he's objectively funny (intentionally or not) while having completely edgy exotic fringe beliefs.
Yet despite all that, he does actually seems to get renown guests on? He interviewed Fan Wennan who had an article written about him in the New York Times, and also did a livestream with Katya Kazbek, contributor on Supamodu. All while being under 500 subs.
ddrDDR >>1901>Haz and his collaborators are the closest /leftypol/ will ever have to a YouTube content creator molded after their collective image.A) We're a lot more coherent than these guys on a bad day.
B) There are multiple youtube content creators who post here, and have been for years.
>>1904I feel like other than the memes theres some quasi schizos
and maybe a janny who unironically like this guy but are too embarrassed to admit it. Possibly haz himself actually is behind some of the schizoposts here or a lurker
>>1905This is a pretty good point tbh. He's deviated so far from Marx (and has basically no sign of Lenin at all) that it's comical to call himself an ML.
>>1907I think it's more that people are fascinated/intrigued. He carries himself as if what he says should be really compelling, and it's hard to parse what he's saying at times. It's an intoxicating mix. But if you actually sit down and try to understand it, it's kind of nonsensical.
>>1911Vaush does stick to a train of thought better which is kind of sad.
>>1915That or Canadian.
>>1910Same, the energy is a huge appeal, also the fact that they're a collective and not just Haz (although he seems to be the one taking the lead with this channel)
>>1915He is from america, but his roots are in some muslim country. I think Lebanon, but I could be wrong.
>>1919what exactly is wrong with positivism and why does it get such a bad rap?
Literally every hard science basically assumes vulgar positivism and it seems to get results since science and technology keep advancing. Isn't that proof of its correctness or at least usefulness?
>>1932Damn that trailer looks kinda good, but
>warner bros.I have no trust in this movie.
>>1942>Haz, [just cut the Dugin]He made it explicitly clear that he's not a Dugin fan, but he shared a single (that is one [1]) video interview with Dugin he agreed with 100%, having to do with the USA not being "boss" ("bauws") anymore.
>>1938That's just Deleuze, picture related! (One of the things I disagree on with Infrared, btw, who seem to prioritize Deleuze & Guattari over Lacan & Freud.)
>>1933>How is for example, biology, chemistry, computer science, mathematics, physics (except theoretical physics) not vulgar positivist?You mention a series of sciences (and arguably
not a "science" – math), but you are missing the point entirely. By themselves (to talk in the abstract, in a vacuum) literally NOTHING is "positivist," for "positivism" is a PHILOSOPHICAL position (specifically: a position in the philosophy of science), not something that "naturally" emanates from these disciplines. (In other words: you don't know what you are talking about.)
>>1922>what exactly is wrong with positivism and why does it get such a bad rap?Start a different thread for this and I'll answer. Here we are kinda off topic / rambling.
>>1918>I have the feeling, that they all are quite autistic.t. autist
>>1916>if you actually sit down and try to understand it, it's kind of nonsensical.I watched like 20 hours of content from them and it does seem to me that it's a unified system of thought, although I'll give it to you that it's hard to detect this from random clips and so on, which is kinda their fault. (Their "what is Infrared" video is like 2 hours long, lol.)
>>1910Haz energy is epic.
>>1906Like it or not, Infrared actually created a network and the infrastructure to put out content in this unified format. This should be commended as an achievement.
Do I agree with 100% of their points? Absolutely not? Does this hinder me from seeing their value? NOPE.
>>1905>the gatekeeper of Marxism appeared>>1904>[leftypol is] a lot more coherent than these guys on a bad day.LOL, really?!
>>1899>This guy should come back when he organizes a party<NOOOOO! YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ORGANIZE A YOUTUBE CHANNEL BEFORE YOU HAVE A PARTY!!!!!!!!!>>1898>Has he commented on historical materialism? It sounds like he doesn't agree with it, since he's diagnosing the left's problem in the west as dogmatic ideology rather than anything material like atomization or precarity getting in the way of workers' power.I agree to a certain degree, but I'm pretty sure that InfraRed seems these (most visibly) ideological problems as rooted in material reality too.
>>1893no, you
>>1885>Infrared is lolcowYou either don't understand what Infrared is or what a lolcow is.
>>1878>Cockshott is a positivist.OBVIOUSLY not the case. He made a video where he explained "muh Science" via Badiou's "The Concept of Model". You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>18731. empiricism =/= positivism
2. using empirical data =/= empiricism
You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>1862based
>>1860yes
>>1859t. never read a book in his life
>>1840Most dishonest/baity OP imaginable.
lenin_capLenin Cap >>1945>>1944>leninhat schizo <ONLY ONE USER CAN USE A CERTAIN FLAG TO POST UNDER(you)
>>1945>what fucking infrastructure?I'm not sure if you're aware of this fact, but getting 3 people to form a single group (whatever that may be)
is fucking hard. Now I look at Infrared videos and I see that they have like 8-12(?) different ethnicities and countrymen etc. on their stream, and I'm like "GOD DAMN, this must have took a lot of work!" In all honesty: I'm fugen jealous, dude. Imagine if VAUSH's channel started like so. Wouldn't you agree that this buildup would have been a fucking guarantee against Vaush pushing pro-anglo(/CIA) narratives 24/7 and him having a more nuanced view on international issues?
Infrared already achieved this, for fuck's sake. This is what DEFINES their potential.
>upload them youtube like anyone elseYou are missing the entire point. Yes, asshole, ANYONE can upload to Youtube, however, having an internationalist platform that is multi-ethnic DOES IN FACT give you the kind of communist strength that lacks with other channels.
What other channels? Well name any of these "breadtube" idiots, from Vaush, through Muke, to Shaun, and you'll see that one of their main problems is that they lack a POV that is outside their CNN/BBC.com comfort zone.
Yes, I'd definitely posit the following: however pre-developed, Infrared holds more potential than the above mentioned, only due to the fact that they are waaaaaay more international.
lenin_capLenin Cap >>1948>yeh but he called leftypol trash though<a user that first contacted a fucking shit-weaving forum called it "shit"brilliant analysis, dearest tripfag (10/10)
>which meansIt doesn't mean SHIT, and you know it.
>bringing his fan base hereThey have like 400 subs. What are you even talking about, schzio?
>>1949no shit
>>1950based
lenin_capLenin Cap >>1951Attention is good. You have no mind for publicity. You are the one that likes his streams, so probably have an affinity with his fan base.
>he has like 400 subs so that is like as many people as visit this entire site, or half as much as BC had at peak. That is a few extra people. What is your issue?
>>1956>link?sorry, you'll have to look up his vids one-by-one. (I'm not gonna do this for you.) However, here is his latest book (How the World Works) with his direct reference to Badiou's "The Concept of Model".
He literally mentions it here, and he literally has a separate vid where he shills it.
Q.E.D.: Cockshott is not a fugen positivist.
Thanks for the maximally uninformative clips, OP.
>>1850>This belongs in /IG/, why the fuck does every random youtuber deserve a thread?>>1857>petition jannies to bumplock this thread or merge it into /IG/I agree with this.
>>1896How are these ideas any different from those of the DSA? This view of "western" anti-imperialist Marxists as dogmatic is something you would expect from the types of college socialists advocating sending SAM missile launchers to Syrian rebels.
Shitting on Marxism-Leninism makes no sense, especially when you acknowledge the good China has done. How can you alledge that the left is dogmatic and then turn to Asians hanging up portraits of Mao Zedong? There are still large pictures of Stalin in China, it isn't some fusion of Heidegger and Kautsky
>>1969>Shitting on Marxism-Leninism makes no sense, especially when you acknowledge the good China has done.They also claim to
be MLs.
>>1896I'd probably agree with him about a lot of things but his energy is too manic for me. Feels like I'm being trapped in the corner of a room at a party and can't get out. Maybe I'm just getting old. But I realize people can blow hot and that gets a reaction.
I listened to what he said though complaining about western MLs "making excuses" for not carrying out a successful revolution because we live in the "imperial core." Well, yes? Is revolution the product of subjective factors or objective historical forces? Or is it both? If you lived in the U.S. in the 20th century, the country was apart from a brief detour in the 1930s always "on the rise" in the world. If you were an American, who would tear that up for a socialist revolution?
Not many, unless they were excluded from it, which is why ML groups in their heyday were disproportionately black and immigrant. But the system has also made reforms at various stages. And for everyone else, there was the "American Dream" which meant that if you bought into this ideology and worked hard, you could build some wealth to pass down to your kids, buy a house and so on, and that gives you a stake in your society and its future. I think to believe you can just "will" a revolution into being without regard for objective conditions leads to ultra-leftist and commandist errors. That said, the relative decline of the U.S. in the world does appear to be creating a crisis for the American ideology.
>>1899>The reason ML became popular is because it succeeded in overthrowing capitalism in Russia and China and like 45% of the planet at one point.Living off past successes is the logic of the bourgeois capitalist.
>>1961>too small for porky to target>too fast growing to crush>too big for porky to resistChoose no more than two
>>1974A fwe MLs really are just there for the jackboots.
>>1977hmm interesting
i get that youd want to make a distinction between """real""" capitalism and current capitalism, but it seems nonsensical to call that socialism
ill look into them more
>>1983>>1984samefag
probably infrared himself
>>1984more accurate their knowledge about philosophy i guess, havent seen many leftists talking about dasein
although im not entirely sure if its a genuine insight or just mental masturbation since i havent read many of the works they reference
>>1985no to both
>>1840>Martin Heidegger, Aleksandr Dugin, Alexandre Kojève, Jacques Lacan, Nick Land, Slavoj Zizek Oh, they're a bunch of fascists pretending to be communists.
Discarded.
lenin_capLenin Cap >>2007The black notebooks show a deeply indoctrinated man, so indoctrinated that he documented a bunch of pitiful attempts to reconcile his philosophy with his ideology in his notebooks. This isn't Carl Schmitt we're talking about here. That said, he only ever implicitly denounced nazism and never apologized.
Heidegger's pre-nazi and post war work has been taken by many leftist thinkers over the years (Kojeve, Marcuse, Jameson (ish)) and they revealed that, ironically, Heidegger may be more useful to leftists than to rightists. If you have an issue with these guys, it should be that they're MLs who almost exclusively reference the influences of the new left and its descendents!
For some reason they make their live streams unlisted so you can only find them in the playlist for them.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAJIhnd1mbiD4JdPj7DndVRj3UPN8PzQZ>>2009They seem more schizo than glowie though.
>>2001>>2002They've explicitly said they take ideas from at least Dugin and Land in their recent streams.
>>2010Doesn't Lacan consider homosexuality a perversion and non-traditional families to undermine muh western civilization? Here's an excerpt from an intro to Lacan I'm reading (more context is posted here >>>/b/10661 in the "anorectal violence" thread)
<More and more single women are deliberately having children, ostensibly rejecting the importance of triangulation (for example, the introduction of a third term in the mother-child dyad, an outside, a symbolic Other; or the institution of the paternal metaphor); and more and more lesbian couples are raising children, seemingly eschewing or downplaying the importance of the father. Combined with the de facto increase in the divorce rate and the consequent increase in the number of children being raised solely by their mothers, and with the growing antiauthoritarian attitude toward children among men (no doubt at least in part encouraged by certain modern-day feminist discourses), the paternal function seems to be in danger of extinction in certain social milieus.<Lacan does not claim that the paternal or father function—the instatement of a father figure in a role of authority beyond the mother—is the nec plus ultra of family structure. His discourse is not that of "family values," pitting Dan Quayle against Murphy Brown. Lacan does not assert that the father should be propped up in our society. Rather, he issues a warning: to reject the father's role, to undermine the father's current symbolic function, will lead to no good; its consequences are likely to be worse than those of the father function itself, increasing the incidence of psychosis. This is one of the things Lacan had in mind when, in 1971, he entitled Seminar XIX ". . . ou pire" (". . . or Worse"), one of the possible elided words being père ("father"). If we view the father as the lesser of two evils, to reject the father is to opt for the worse.<Lacan's challenge to discourses that encourage the elimination of the paternal function would run something like this: "Can something like the paternal metaphor—providing the fundamental link between signifier and signified, between language and meaning—be instated without the father as symbolic function? If so, how? If not, is there some other way to introduce an outside—that is, to triangulate the mother-child relationship and stave off psychosis? How can this be done without relying on the symbolic order and its ability to intercede in the imaginary, the world of rivalry and war? Doesn't one sex have to play the part of symbolic representative?"<Unless some other way of achieving the same effect is found—Lacan's work would seem to suggest—the practices that stem from such discourses run the risk of increasing the incidence of psychosis.Is Lacan some kind of arch-conservative, or is this guy wildly misrepresenting him?
Join the stream he is reacting to this thread
https://youtu.be/TxHGVmPhcBUHe will be addressing to all your criticisms
I posted this in another thread, in defense of Infrared.
Infrared is important, not because he is right or wrong. It is the anti-dogmatism of the (schizo if you want) proposals that they are offering, the unique reading that is not offered here, plus the good dose of lols. I don't give a shit if you "believe" them or not. I'm tired of sterility, both in theory and in praxis.
If your org's primary praxis has been selling newspapers for the last 50 years, fuck you.
If you were taught "idealism is when you close your eyes and wish for something, and you open them it's there", fuck your org too.
If you were taught "dialectical materialism is when you do experiments like science", fuck your shitty theory.
If you subscribe to the thought: "waste no time on Hegel, instead, let's jack off to these linear programming problems that will never be useful for you because the left is dead, also fuck trans amirite", fuck you and I hope your dick explodes.
If you thing "postmodernist theory is bad", you're being included in this shit.
If you have ANY criticism on others views but you haven't ever done anything IRL, shut the fuck up and pay attention.
Here's something special: whatever your take on Marx, marxism, praxis, or the left is, it is entirely insufficient and probably an embarrassment. Take your head out of your ass. This isn't a game to see who is smarter, or who can quote Marx the hardest.
We're here to learn, to shitpost, to have fun, and to change the world.
Nothing less than that.
>>2031he should go debate vaush then
it would be very funny
>>2049What this anon said
>>2050I mean maybe he thinks the CPUSA is bad, but if that's his position he is terrible at making that clear.
>>2065Yeah this take is based AF
>>2068<BookchinThe jokes write themselves
sandinistaSandinista >>2064You have forced me to kek instead.
>>2069Should we start calling dogmatists bookchins? How about the occasional kiddies on /pol/ who just took their cuckonomics 101 final and think they know the meaning of life?
>>2076<YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE FONT COLORS AND ANAL VENTRILOQUISM BUCKO? >>2083it doesn't help that they refer to all kinds of other media elsewhere that nobody will bother to look up because why-the-fuck-would-they
they might've studied marx for a trillion years for all I care but they've obviously not organized a single fucking thing irl in their lives. you should have a simple bullet-point list of your beliefs and ideas you can reiterate at any given time if you just don't want to do the whole shebang.
>>2082What we have in the West is gender neoliberalism.
>>2083He needs to:
<A1. write<A2. get an editorOR
<B1. write<B2. post here<B3. defend<B4. edit<B5. goto B2Philosophy in denial on television in denial is just not going to work out well.
>>2093Imagine thinking the CPUSA needs millions of dollars to survive lmao
I don't think they even have like associated unions anymore, all they really do is a bit of like food drives and shit and print out posters
>>2097I mean you could argue that was because communism generally seemed defeated
even if you still believed in communism it wouldn't be unreasonable to leave because it'd be expected there would be a crackdown
>>2098true
>>2095pic
>>2101Don't worry, you too can develop your gender capital and become a gender entrepreneur, and if you work your gender hard enough, you can gender retire early with massive gender gains.
>>2105Still trying to break into bourgeois politics when they have reserved the right to reject you for their own reasons? That's like asking them to hand you a revolution, pretty please. I get the sense that vanguards just want to get elected, cash out, and go grill.
>>2117Failing to capitalize Black is grounds for permanent exile.
>>2128Fuck dat. The very first goal of anyone partaking in discourse should be writing your own damn footnotes.
Seriously this guy needs to get off youtube and write, if only to straighten and clear his mind.
>>2129haz this post's image is actually a PDF
if you click it, it will download the entire book for you
>>2150He already is.
We all are.
>>2247this is so stupid I have finally come on board
haz should form an alliance with /leftypol/ or something, we can link him on our homepage
>>2255>>2259its fundamentally wrong in that the adoption of measures of central planning and stuff isn't an adoption of socialism but is rather an inevitability of capitalism because of the inevitable consolidation of capital with a falling rate of profit - it is definitively new left dialog completely dancing around the actual material point of the structure of society and instead opting for this kind of cultural and social analysis
all that said
>>2261 is right, the debater has Haz be at least somewhat fucking coherent. its like the first time he has made an actual political point or had a real discussion this stream.
>>2265yes and no?
s/he is on the cytube organizing movie nights I think.
>>2266Use two *s on each side to spoiler.
>>2267I guess Haz is a leftypoler now lol
>>2272haz is honorary /leftypol/
he survived the trial by fire
>>2280any "aesthetic" angle can be turned against you because it is inherently not anchored in real meaning
your victories and triumphs on behalf of the proletariat is what you should champion yourself by
>>2285Yep like
>>2286 said it's really cute.
>>2289also the entire idea that neoliberalism is a form of socialism is very funny, if anything it is more the incorporation of the psychological elements of fascism into the liberal ideological framework.
>>2292"aesthetical" seems to be the only level they think on a lot of the time
>>2314he said something about westeners not having any real objective connection to socialism and heidegger, specifically dasein is a useful tool for giving that connection
sadly im also too small brained to understand that, gonna have to add another book to my reading list i guess
>>2321you honestly aren't missing much from the new left. really just think about liberalism as incorporating all of the psychological aspects of fascism into their ideology and you've basically gotten all of their theoretical contributions to leftism.
>>2325probably because you are deeply retarded. the new left and stirner are like exact opposites, they are very spooked.
>>2326yes
>>2323start with Hubert Drayfus' lectures. he uses plenty of everyday examples so everything he says is extremely easy to understand.
just read the pages he tells you to before each lecture
>>2313Re watching their "What Infrared is all about" i found another interesting point:
-The Western marxists act in relation with the system as pure negation without (mostly) bringing any constructive/positive/peculiar element in their political discourse. They lack the pars costruens to say.
(At the end of the day is the same point Caleb says with his "city builder" stuff only said in a more academic sounding way, and maybe that's why they're huge fan of Caleb, or at least why Haz is).
Also that's why they look to the EFF as something to study and appreciate.
sandinistaSandinista >>2347Dunno. He seems like a nice dude. His whole point about "you are about a positive vision, but why are you so angry at trolls?" misses the mark. You can't separate these two. Being passionate about something isn't reduceable to "love". Take Lenin or Marx or whomever and they clearly had passionate hatred for idiots while having a passionate love or support for the cause of the proletariat.
Also, his
>the essence of alienation is our inability to loveis just hippy dippy BS.
>>2349I get a lot of lols from him being angry. I also don't think he's actually angry. It's more passion + frustration. I don't know. I get it all the time here arguing with retards. I don't get angry, I just get really worked up.
>>2348True.
>>2350picrel.
>>2352>leftypol MLs A construct in his head when made a persona. When I referred to it I meant discrete posts I see here that may have corresponded to his frustration. They are anons, not flag posters. In truth, these were mostly posts trolling him but I do think people on leftypol can be very cut and dry about how they approach concepts regardless of tendency. I think he was bummed because he thought he wasn’t being accepted by MLS.
To be clear, I was not looking to accurately represent my beliefs so much as find common ground. They have good things to say and I wanted to hear more about them.
socialismSocialism >>2364It's literally just contrarian philosophical diarrhea, the only reason leftypol think infrared are saying anything is because it's really
ANGRY and
confident contrarian philosophical diarrhea. Y'all are just falling for the speech-check.
>>2369And falling for your post that tries to discredit them is failing a confidence-check.
Whip your genitals out and tell me what exactly you disagree with them.
>>2371which namefags. extremely vague accusation.
we have like 1 namefag, sage, who's functionally retarded. rampant anorectal violence guy sticks to his topic, so their youtube would be about that.
shay is deleuzean schizo analysis with /x/ characteristics. these guys are not that.
which namefag were you thinking about? or where you being a massive cunt?
>>2370>Whip your genitals out and tell me what exactly you disagree with them.I would if they actually fucking said anything. What have these people actually fucking said or done that isn't just contrarian philosophical word salad?
>anglo bad>westerner bad>uhhh ackshually we already live in socialismwhat the
FUCK have they actually said of value
>>2368>What the fuck has this guy even done besides be a really obnoxious contrarian?You are describing yourself.
>I don't understand why you faggots are worshipping himLiking someone =/= worshipping someone.
> I'm confused as to why the fuck leftypol is obsessed with him.The ones obsessed with him are the trolls.
>>2373Maybe watch a few of their videos to find out?
>>2368Eh, for me, boredom. What else do I have going on?
>>2367Actually, I'd be curious to see his reaction to this video series from the CPC for party members called "Don't Forget Your Original Heart, Keep Your Mission in Mind" (meaning communism ofc) and I find it fascinating because they'll show rescue workers and firefighters pulling people out of wreckage. Like, what is going to inspire a person to go beyond their limitations and save someone's life by pulling them from a burning building? It's a very different message from what I see from western socialists.
http://chuxin.people.cn/GB/428819/index.htmlAlso, about the CPUSA being the "good ol' communist party," I think there's something to be said for longevity too, the fact that the old folks in the party are still doing it after all these years. Machiavelli thought legitimacy comes in part from existence and longevity, and if that has any relevance for communists, it's that one of the political projects we clearly need is to just exist in the first place… as in have a socialist state which has gained traditions and past glories. Just the existence of the USSR in the 50s and 60s, whatever anyone thinks about it, created a space for revolution in the third world. Does this make "the party" the modern "Prince?" Or maybe another lesson we should learn from this is the success of the Catholic Church as an institution which has survived for millennia.
>>2378It wasn't enough to feel smug. The other anon needed to first promote infrared to "world star e-celebs that bump shoulders with Rihana", to then look down upon them.
>>2379Sage is retarded and can only think in terms of tenant unions. Eugene is retarded and can only think in terms of eugenics, plus make 90 page rants about things that should only take 1 or 2 sentences to say. King Lear has a boner for gays and China and is frankly retarded. Shay is based but has no interest in Deleuze, I was describing them, not their theoretical interests.
Basically every single namefag you mention except Shay is single minded and 100% retarded. I'll take this opportunity to mention that I never read their retarded posts. These guys are much more based just on principle of not being 100% retarded.
>>2360Let me guess, you posted that smug tea drinking react pic. I felt a little confused about him being angry at that post, he picked it apart piece by piece, but he should've read the whole post in its entirety.
>>2376They are actually pretty wel read on theory, they have like 12 members in their collective from different backgrounds. Haz has BDE. I haven't really found a criticism that stuck, they're chill and I can appreciate the angle they're coming from.
>>2386OK so basically it was a theory of early human development which posited that a certain stage of development was a "mirror" phase where the only way the child comes to learn they exist is to see reflections of themselves (not metaphorically, but literally).
Of course this doesn't work for blind or otherwise visually impaired people so he was basically implying blind people were incapable of undergoing human development, which his students brought up and summarily btfo'd him on.
the only reason charlatans like him have been able to get so far is the cargo cult culture the western left has in regards to its own captured and castrated "leftist" academia. its why haz complaining and talking about academia generally is rich, his ideology is borne completely out of a castrated "left" academia.
>>2390The case of an infant seeing itself in a mirror is used as an
exemplary case of self-recognition; Lacan posits that all children pass through this stage of
self-recognition, as reflected (primarily) in the mother as primary caregiver. Clearly, for blind infants, this would occur in some other register within what Lacan calls the perception-consciousness system.
Similarly, Freud (to the best of my knowledge) does not explicitly describe the dreams of blind people in The Interpretation of Dreams; this omission does not imply that blind people are lacking the unconscious drive for wish-fulfillment, etc.
Sage because pseud pretending to be an expert.
Picrel is obv. pedagogic demonstration, not "how it literally happens to every kid."
>>2394So, wait, you
admit that the theory doesn't even originate in Lacan and that he actually reworked it with his Sausserian turn? Your critique is completely displaced. In any case, relying on Dylan, who abandoned Lacanian theory completely, to explain Lacan is like relying on David Horowitz to explain Marx. You can do that, just don't expect people will take it as a good faith argument.
Lacan's mirror stage
is about the symbolic whether you'd like to admit it or not, and as such applies to any infant capable of developing language. (Yes, mute, blind, and deaf language too which all have signifiers.)
>>2395His "theory" originates in a scientific study whose own author would disavow Lacan's findings by it, the man was regarded as such a quack that he was kicked out of the fucking
International Psychoanalytic Association, a collection of schitzos themselves.
Lacan may have coped his theory into something else after he got flak for being a retard, but it was still founded on a fundamentally incorrect basis. You never saw Marx. and co. trot out this kind of drivel. Tthis isn't to say that everything lacan worked on was garbage or that everything influenced by him is, but it should be suspect at least, and taking his work uncritically (as Haz does, it seems) is a path to ruination.
>>2399He never said we should support the CPUSA.
>things I don't understand are meaningless"okay"
>people I dislike are all schizos"okay"
>>2400Bad politics, bad optics, bad everything, and we're still supposed to support them. Because they have an aesthetic of being an "establishment". You are not contrary to my point, you are making it for me.
>>2401He quite literally did.
>>2408yes
so why join any of them? the entire point of a party is organizing a mass movement which doesn't even exist yet? I swear all the fucking western MLs want the aesthetics of the party without putting in the work that a party needs to be effective to begin with. you can't make a party and the people will come to you, the party is the culmination of organizing via other means finally bringing together all manner of different parts of the proletariat under one banner.
>>2409no they are equally as shit, if not possibly more so. all parties are failures because they have no mass movement to them.
>>2413>because it’s better than building one from scratchin such a scenario both parties would both be equally useless because they both don't have any mass movement to them
try again
>>2414they can get back to me if and when they actually succeed, but they have still fundamentally gotten it all ass-backwards. that they were virtually a party organized by a bunch of ideologically-involved college students rather than defined by a mass-movement of the proletariat being the basis for their creation likely means their foundational aspects are totally unresponsive to the modern proletariat and will have to be totally reworked to suit their interests - virtually the equivalent of making an entirely new party, but with an obstructionist administration likely blocking their path and every step. and mind, this is only
if they succeed to get a mass movement behind them.
>>2417what fucking opportunity am I even exploiting? the total ineptitude of the left in the US more generally? and towards what end?
just because people say or do things that don't jive with the orthodoxy doesn't make them some kind of saboteur. its not like I'm trying to sell a fucking party-supplement in pill form here.
>>2421I see no mass movement behind the CPUSA nor do I have the gall to say any party I would make would have either. they are categorically true, as far as I can see.
>>2423then every opportunist would be the ones in the fucking parties doing literally nothing and waiting for the proles to come to them. I organize and do things independent of parties because all the parties have seemed to breed has been failure. I don't want all my work co-opted into fucking "vote for Hillary" retards whose only work is fucking paperwork. Should that change, maybe I will consider joining and organizing with them.
>>2424>Should that change, maybe I will consider joining and organizing with them.To be clear, I'm with you here; see
>>2120. but I still agree with Haz that it's a "brand" worth saving. That can't be done without joining and seeing what's up. If not then you could always (loosely) affiliate with Marxist Center at some point.
>>2245“Either you get killed in the cradle by imageboards or you rise to become a kiwifarms thread.”
–Hegel
>>2397>the man was regarded as such a quack that he was kicked out of the fucking International Psychoanalytic Association, a collection of schitzos themselvesLacan got into trouble for doing some very short sessions, like two minutes with a patient and then kthnxbye. Even Freudians have standards.
>>2425if you really want to save the brand you'd be better off doing a reverse takeover at a future date tbh.
why buy up a heavily indebted company when you can start a new one, make loadsemone, then phoenix company the fuck out of the old one.
democratic_socialismDemocratic Socialism >>2370>Whip your genitals out and tell me what exactly you disagree with them.But we don't disagree with them. They haven't said hardly anything that you could even disagree with. They are mostly making a bunch of disconnected references to various concepts. It's like if you wrote some kind of theoretical work trying together these philosophical ideas with communism, but then you went on youtube and read off just your citations. The problem people are having is that we can barely find any substance to agree or disagree with.
>>2430The only reason people started "trolling" him is because he specifically came here after someone in his chat told him about us. He'd come up occasionally in the /IG/ thread as a new content creator to discuss, but it was him actually coming here and streaming the website that kicked off this interaction. We're not mid 2000's /b/, searching for somebody to troll epically.
>>2412>parties are for drinkingBased. If I can't drink, it's not my revolution.
>>2417Opportunism scores wins and fuck your evangelical religion.
>>2420DELIVER
THE
GOOD
S DRUGS
>>2399The CPUSA indeed does have bad politics but that is a ridiculous strawman. Posting a flowery quote from Sam Kriss and then claim "this is what the CPUSA supports" is a cheap shot. Their "support" for the Democratic Party amounted to no explicit endorsement but rather a "don't vote for Trump" slogan and while I think this is wrong I doubt you can't find many criticisms of the American system and DC within the CPUSA's material.
Haz probably overestimates this but brand, aesthetic and tradition do play a role somewhat. The CPUSA isn't a big machine, it's malleable, and we can make it ours if we help organizing and reconstituting them instead of the constant splitting into sects. At least the CPUSA, from what I've seen, allows for open discussion in a democratic centralist tradition, while the PSL for example seems to stifle it.
ddrDDR >>2383Yes and I thought it was funny when he expanded the image while shouting YOU MOTHERFUCKER, YOU CALL YOURSELF A MARXIST-LENINIST YOU SON OF A BITCH at this horribly smug picture of Jiang Zemin. Good stuff.
>>2434I voted for Biden. Trying to be the chad low-information voter, and always making it home in time for the big game.
Eudamonia has agreed to direct a sort of book club to help us get into this new line of thought.
Come on Matrix if you want to join
https://matrix.to/#/#IBC:matrix.org?via=matrix.org>>2430who am i trolling? im just reminding /leftypol/ that it is silly to care this much about what some fucking rando youtuber is saying and it is absolutely pathetic to actually put time and thought into considering their politics and propositions
im not saying theres inherently something wrong with someone posting videos about what theyre thinking about or talking about stuff but this Face Center Frame Doing Asinine Diagrams shit is just edgy breadtube. its standard social media narcissism geared towards a different audience. do something else, read a book. at least when youre shitposting on here and getting to invested in it youre not jacking off some glorified tiktokers ego
>>2445>19th century Germany was non-industrial peripheryNope? Pretty much the opposite, actually?
>Marx was a jewNo, Marx was catholic/atheist and both Marx and Engels were upper class bourgeois, far from being "outsiders". Engels owned a factory in England ffs.
That being said, Marxism is neither a "western" nor an "eastern" ideology. It's about getting rid of class society.
ddrDDR >>2459This is not DDR poster by way, I'm busy this evening, don't be an imposter, sucks …
Pic related for proof, have a nice stream everyone ITT nonetheless :)
ddrDDR >>2452>I can only one strategyThat's why hybrid warfare has been B-ing you TFO for the past 50 years.
>>2450>implying xe's not doing all three at once>>2459>>19th century Germany was non-industrial peripheryWhat did he mean by this?
>>2467If settling for a Carnation Revolution-style social democratic coup will shut you up then so be it.
Still a lot Ls to be found there.
>>2472check'd
>>2473>check stream<he is seething at one of my postslmao
>>2476he also says he isn't new left because his favored new left theorist got attacked by other new leftists lmao
as if Trotsky instantly stopped being a part of the ideological heritage of Lenin when he critiqued and broke away from Stalin
This is based lol
>>2480Wrong
This guy uses a lot of chan lingo where did he shitpost?
>>2448>>2486Ginjeet needs to change his descriptions to link leftypol.org.
>>2513Xi
please fund me with tendies and type 56s
>>2520You are my Senpai
My only Senpai
You give me dokis
In shades of grey
You'll never notice me
But I still love you
Please don’t take my Senpai away ♥
Oh i wish i was in the land of kittens,
Femboys, tight clothes barely fittin'
Stick it out, stick it out, stick it out for dick-see land.
In dixie land where loads get busted,
For the feeling and taste of dicks i lusted,
Stick it out, stick it out, stick it out, for dixieland.
I wish i was in dixie, oh yeah, oh yeah!
In dixie land i'll spread my ass,
For throbbing dicks in dixie.
Butts, mouths, cum down south in dixie
Butts, mouths, cum down south in dixie
>>2523Well, they do not oppose it, in fact, they have been accused to furthering their cause in the past. The reason they're not enthusiastic about a Maoist party is because they consider China a "revisionist state-capitalist regime" and want to overthrow the government as they give interviews in Radio Free Asia. Why would they have friendly relations with them?
The sister party of the CPC is the PKP-1930, not the CPP. So yeah.
ddrDDR >>2546FUCK how did I miss that they were live.
Positivist marxists are liberal marxists, prove me wrong. Hint:
you can't. >>2528>>2520SENPAI INFRARED NOTICE ME
FUCK ANGLOS OWO OWO OWO OWO OWO
>>2530NO YOU Sue White.
>>2557>SENPAI INFRARED NOTICE MESENPAI INFRARED NOTICED ME
FUCK I GOT THE POST WRONG OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Now that Haz is done replying to you attention whores, come watch a movie with us
https://tv.leftypol.org/r/MovieNightWe have been watching some Chinese movies the past week, and we have a lot more lined up.
Tonight at 6pm EST / 11pm UTC
Red Sorghum (1988) - Zhang Yimou
>Young Jiu'er (Gong Li) is sent by her parents to marry an old leper who owns a distillery. As she is being carried over the sorghum fields, bandits attack and she is rescued by a laborer (Wen Jiang), with whom she has a son – the narrator. After the old leper dies, Jiu'er takes control of the distillery and invites the workers into a collective arrangement. But as the Sino-Japanese War peaks, barbarous Japanese troops storm onto the property determined to destroy the sorghum fields.>>2571I'm not talking about Haz. I'm talking about you people saying NOTICE ME SENPAI. Haz is cool. I was lukewarm on him but he got a lot better especially after eudaimania talked to him.
>>2573Come post a link and I'll add it.
>>2575problem?
>>2463(I’m replying to you directly on here since youtube decided to automatically remove my comments)
As a German, why are you opposed to eurasianism? Creating links with Russia and China is in Germany’s interest, plus this is objectively contributing to the weakening of US global hegemony by creating a new multipolar imperialist world-order.
It’s important to remember that the more the imperialists are divided between themselves, the more likely is the chance of socialism arising. Each world war led to the expansion of socialism. Moreover, an imperialist can and will support a socialist country if it means weakening their rival’s interest, we shouldn’t have any remorse about asking for the support of an imperialist world power to gives us support, as long as it empowers socialism in the long term.
This happened in Ukraine for instance, where Russia supported the Donetsk People's Republic as well as the Luhansk People's Republic against the fascists in Ukraine, despite Russia being led by an oligarch's cock-sleeve.
Another more controversial case among Marxist-Leninist is when the US supported the quasi-socialist state of Rojava in Syria to maintain its imperialist presence in the region, showing that even the US, the most ruthless imperialist warmonger, is capable of supporting a socialist state just to further its strategic interests.
Today the People's Republic of China (which I consider to be state-capitalist) supports the DPRK and Cuba against the US, their role as defender of socialist countries cannot be understated, even if you disagree with their bizarre "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" policy.
It's not about "campism" or whatever buzzword you prefer, it's about creating fractures inside the current global capitalist world order to weaken its power over the extra long-term. Global liberalism depends on political stability, capitalist property rights and social-relations, human capital supremacy, free movement of capital and people, international cooperation as well as the flow of information. To destroy capitalism, you must first weaken the foundations of liberalism to ensure that the capitalists can't form a united front against socialism, and believe me, they will do when a socialist country will actually start to threaten their power.
For the moment, the capitalist countries are too much integrated with each other for revolution to be possible, as like I mentioned before they would not only form a united front to crush socialism, the working class in a revolutionary country would have to fight its entire army apparatus to establish socialism. This task is made significantly easier when the army is disorganized and weakened by a rival imperialist power during a war.
Unfortunately, socialism is not around the corner, the world is just way to inter-connected for a single isolated socialist country to survive (unless you want to become like the DPRK or Cuba). Sad but this is the truth.
Eurasianism in the Russian and post-soviet context represents a way to fight Western imperialist hegemony while furthering the people's need for social reforms. Putin is not really an Eurasianist, he is a Russian nationalist, he supports private monopolies and reactionary Russian imperial myths. Eurasianism is not only the fruit of Dugin's idea, but the manifestation of multiple movements across the post-soviet zone to counter the influence of global capitalist hegemony.
Then there is this new implicit “greater-eurasianism” which is still in an embryonic stage and represent the economic and political convergence of Europe, Russia and China toward a form of proto-socialist state-capitalist model. In order to maintain its supremacy, it’s absolutely essential for the US to stop this convergence by fomenting fractures between these countries so they can’t unite.
This is explicitly said by American geopolitical analysts and it’s also the guiding US foreign policy since WW2. I still don’t understand why brainlets deny it or continue to think America’s actions are guided by neoconservatives’ ideas while these are merely the justifications of the superstructure to meet the needs of the base’s imperialistic interests.
Geopolitics is harsh, it's sterile, sociopathic and devoid of humanity. But they are essential if you want to keep up in this world. You can't think in an ideological manner anymore, idealism in international relation is over, embrace realism. No revolution will survive without having an understanding of modern international relations theory.
Now to reply directly to your accusations:
>Caleb and the Grayzone are puppets of foreign governments. Caleb is obviously funded by the Russian state, the Grayzone has better ways to disguise their sponsors.I wouldn't even care if this was true, their work (especially the Grayzone) has been essential in fighting the current zeitgeist regarding China and other non-liberal nations.
>Hakim was spouting nonsense, when he praised the RAF and I just felt the need, to call him out for this.Sounds like you're just a triggered West-Germanoid.
>Wait, you are in defence of Pol Pot??No and I don't care about having this debate.
And no, I’m not Red Dundonian, I’m another guy.
tankieTankie >>2586I will not reply to everything, but this is my main point:
>As a German, why are you opposed to eurasianism?I'm not per se opposed to eurasianism, but I'm not convinced that it is inherently better than atlanticism.
>Creating links with Russia and China is in Germany’s interestIs it? Before Merkel, we had a staunch eurasianist chancellor - Gerhard Schröder - and he did a great job at destroying the welfare state and creating "the best low-income sector in Europe". Now he lives in Russia and is Putin's BFF.
>this is objectively contributing to the weakening of US global hegemony by creating a new multipolar imperialist world-order.Wow, and how will this bring me a decent wage and affordable housing?
I don't give a shit, if this world is becoming multipolar. At this point just want to survive. I distrust China the same way I distrust Russia and the US. All this theorizing about "breaking the imperialist order" is fun and games, but in the end I have to pay my bills. Would it objectively help the global anti-imperialist movement, if my country would be suddenly nuked? Maybe. But I personally wouldn't benefit from it. This is certain.
>>2595Plenty of people here will watch their stream regardless.
>>2596Could it be that Infrared have something interesting to say?
>>2595>>2594Make
him make a fucking AMA thread or whatever faggoty ass bullshit if he wants to browse the website.
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