Haz is completely humiliating and degrading that individualist anglo brainlet on stream. Tune inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNdgFtqmvC4Picrel is sage
>>4223You're just lazy.
The only thing that anglo means is simply a metaphysical and civilizational period beginning sometime in the 17th century up to the current year, which people are still mentally and dogmatically bogged down by.Anglo is not idpol, he doesn't think that anglos are too over-represented in society and there needs to be "affirmative action" for non anglos, that's completely beside the point. Nobody is using "anglo" in a racial manner and Haz never used it in a racial manner. Only trolls like you try to use it in a racial manner in order to derail the thread, in bad faith.
Fuck you, anglo >>4248where is my free shit then?
>>4250pic related
>>4280strikes are very effective when most of the countries wealth comes from factories.
Thats not the case anymore.
Most of the countrys wealth comes from finance.
Atleast in the US.
>>4285So the question is how do we attack finance.
Finance happens through servers, attack the servers and you attack finance.
Attacking the transportation of goods is also a way of attacking finance.
Piracy would be an effective way of doing so.
Also attacking ports.
But doing any of that is far more risky than striking.
>>4288Correct, which is why striking isn't as effective as piracy even.
>But doing any of that is far more risky than striking.Thats the point. If sage is too much of a pussy to even show his face and voice on stream, then he can't be expected to achieve anything. He doesn't like risk, he just trolls on an imageboard.
>>4292no, but žižek's first language isn't english. and yes, mispronouncing common words is a sign that the speaker has room for improvement. haz tries to psss himself off as someone who is well read on philosophy, history and theory. when asked about what he thinks of bonapartism he said "I think it gets overlooked and that's bad because people should know who bonaparte actually was" or something like that, he mumbled through the last part quickly and started talking about something else. that's a cop out.
he also said "jordan peterson is metaphysical" and "jordan peterson is a vulgar metaphysicist". jordan peterson is an idiot, and no-self respecting person would mention him as a serious contributor to anything. he's one of the gang of retards who say dumb shit but are paraded around because their dumb shit perpetuates and justifies the ruling ideology.
clearly haz is someone who knows enough leftism to grift and is using /leftypol/ to jumpstart his channel. this is how I know there aren't that many oldfags around, because this is just another batko, another muke.
he fucking comments on threads, judging who's right and who's wrong, responding to arguments. if he has something to say, he can write it like the rest of us, not make 9 hour streams talking shit. a real bookworm that one.
>>4297>but žižek's first language isn't englishso? haz's first language was not english either
>wahh he analyzed peterson instead of dismissing him as an idiot like I lazily do, therefore he is a grifterlol. also you have not made any refutation against his analysis of peterson.
>>4288>Attacking the transportation of goods is also a way of attacking finance.Transportation of goods isn't finance. Attacking transportation and production damages finance because transportation and production are more important than finance.
>>4290>striking isn't as effective as piracyThis is the dumbest shit.
>>4303>you guys know why Haz has respect for petersonIt is because
ARIEL, THE HEROINE, IS QUITE FEMININE, BUT SHE ALSO HAS A STRONG SPIRIT OF INDEPENDENCE. FOR THIS REASON, SHE IS HER FATHER’S FAVOURITE, ALTHOUGH SHE ALSO CAUSES HIM THE MOST TROUBLE. HER FATHER TRITON IS THE KING, REPRESENTING THE KNOWN, CULTURE AND ORDER (WITH A HINT OF THE OPPRESSIVE RULE-GIVER AND TYRANT). BECAUSE ORDER IS ALWAYS OPPOSED BY CHAOS, TRITON HAS AN ADVERSARY, URSULA, A TENTACLED OCTOPUS—A SERPENT, A GORGON, A HYDRA. THUS, URSULA IS IN THE SAME ARCHETYPAL CATEGORY AS THE DRAGON/QUEEN MALEFICENT IN SLEEPING BEAUTY (OR THE JEALOUS OLDER QUEEN IN SNOW WHITE, LADY TREMAINE IN CINDERELLA, THE RED QUEEN IN ALICE IN WONDERLAND, CRUELLA DE VIL IN 101 DALMATIONS, MISS MEDUSA IN THE RESCUERS AND MOTHER GOTHEL IN TANGLED). ARIEL WANTS TO KINDLE A ROMANCE WITH PRINCE ERIC, WHOM SHE PREVIOUSLY RESCUED FROM A SHIPWRECK. URSULA TRICKS ARIEL INTO GIVING UP HER VOICE SO THAT SHE CAN HAVE THREE DAYS AS A HUMAN BEING. URSULA KNOWS FULL WELL, HOWEVER, THAT A VOICELESS ARIEL WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ESTABLISH A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PRINCE. WITHOUT HER CAPACITY TO SPEAK—WITHOUT THE LOGOS; WITHOUT THE DIVINE WORD—SHE WILL REMAIN UNDERWATER, UNCONSCIOUS, FOREVER. WHEN ARIEL FAILS TO FORM A UNION WITH PRINCE ERIC, URSULA STEALS HER SOUL, AND PLACES IT IN HER LARGE COLLECTION OF SHRIVELLED AND WARPED SEMI-BEINGS, WELL-PROTECTED BY HER FEMININE GRACES. WHEN KING TRITON SHOWS UP TO DEMAND THE RETURN OF HIS DAUGHTER, URSULA MAKES HIM A TERRIBLE OFFER: HE CAN TAKE ARIEL’S PLACE. OF COURSE, THE ELIMINATION OF THE WISE KING (WHO REPRESENTS, TO SAY IT AGAIN, THE BENEVOLENT SIDE OF THE PATRIARCHY) HAS BEEN URSULA’S NEFARIOUS PLAN ALL ALONG. ARIEL IS RELEASED, BUT TRITON IS NOW REDUCED TO A PATHETIC SHADOW OF HIS FORMER SELF. MORE IMPORTANTLY, URSULA NOW HAS TRITON’S MAGIC TRIDENT, THE SOURCE OF HIS GODLIKE POWER. FORTUNATELY FOR EVERYONE CONCERNED (EXCEPT URSULA), PRINCE ERIC RETURNS, DISTRACTING THE EVIL QUEEN OF THE UNDERWORLD WITH A HARPOON. THIS OPENS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR ARIEL TO ATTACK URSULA, WHO GROWS, IN RESPONSE, TO MONSTROUS PROPORTIONS—IN THE SAME MANNER AS MALEFICENT, SLEEPING BEAUTY’S EVIL QUEEN. URSULA CREATES A HUGE STORM, AND RAISES A WHOLE NAVY OF SUNKEN SHIPS FROM THE OCEAN FLOOR. AS SHE PREPARES TO KILL ARIEL, ERIC COMMANDEERS A WRECKED SHIP, AND RAMS HER WITH ITS BROKEN BOWSPRIT. TRITON AND THE OTHER CAPTURED SOULS ARE RELEASED. THE REJUVENATED TRITON THEN TRANSFORMS HIS DAUGHTER INTO A HUMAN BEING, SO SHE CAN REMAIN WITH ERIC. FOR A WOMAN TO BECOME COMPLETE, SUCH STORIES CLAIM, SHE MUST FORM A RELATIONSHIP WITH MASCULINE CONSCIOUSNESS AND STAND UP TO THE TERRIBLE WORLD (WHICH SOMETIMES MANIFESTS ITSELF, PRIMARILY, IN THE FORM OF HER TOO-PRESENT MOTHER). AN ACTUAL MAN CAN HELP HER DO THAT, TO SOME DEGREE, BUT IT IS BETTER FOR EVERYONE CONCERNED WHEN NO ONE IS TOO DEPENDENT. ONE DAY, WHEN I WAS A KID, I WAS OUT PLAYING SOFTBALL WITH SOME FRIENDS. >>4304>striking isn't as effective as piracy>This is the dumbest shit.Well if the point is to hurt porky's bottomline which one do you think would affect him more?
Some walmart employees striking who are replaced by other proles right away
Or
sinking a cargo ship
>>4318Thing about Vaush is that he refuses to debate anyone that is smart. He has made a living debating far-right gtifters and little yanke kids from the ddepths of the internet.
He (and this streaming guy) are just poseur bobos.
>>4324>You might as well say dick cheney won against vaush as well.>thinks a man who has admitedly even by his detractors held his own in the high echlons for decades would loose a debate with some manboy gamer.anarcho-nihilismAnarcho-Nihilism >>4347he's autistically gone through the gauntlet, and even had a namefag shit up his stream.
Socialism done left sounds like a fine stepping stone
anarchismAnarchism >>4359You're an absolute embarrassment to the board, and you have zero self awareness. I know you will never realize that you being so desperate to have the last word is completely off-putting to everyone around you, so you will continue sperging out for eternity until you are banned, so I hope mods do this soon so you don't end up posting another 60 seethe posts in this thread.
Don't bother asking any questions about direct action or other autism, I'm not going to answer you.
>>4365>debate me bro debate me bro >I will not answer your questions Hahahahaha
>puh…puh…please ban him mods Ahaha
>can’t>handle>the >truth >>4388he was invited by the chat multiple times.
sage was BTFOd and he is incapable of taking the L. This is the default when talking with sage.
no self awareness whatsoever.
>>4386>make a poll to prove your point>get outvoted AHAHAHAHHAHA.
Still, still not lovin police, still rock my khakis with a cuff and a crease
>>4403>Strikes>Streaming How is this even a dichotomy?
Do you think haz is against striking?
>The transformation of scattered private property, arising from individual labour, into capitalist private property is, naturally, a process, incomparably more protracted, arduous, and difficult, than the transformation of capitalistic private property, already practically resting on socialised production, into socialised property.
Marx agrees with Haz.
>>4402Its not about defining it its about the FACT that organised labour has always been the main weapon of the proletariat, and the strike is the ultimate weapon of organised labour. The strike DIRECTLY intervenes in capital accumulation as opposed to say, a petition, which merely ASKS.
Haz is a complete brainlet, he has chosen quite honestly the worst possible hill he could die on. Obviously striking is direct action, obviously striking is a more potent weapon for the global workers movement than streaming. Its not even a debate, there shouldn't even be a question.
>>4411not sage either
strikes are direct action cope more streamlet
>>439713 minutes ago there were 46 unique IPs, now 6 new people using the same language as sage, but that totally aren't sage, have come to be autistic about striking being direct action.
Nothing suspicious here.
>>4421This is so bad it's almost funny.
>>4422It pretty much is.
>>4404>Do you think haz is against striking?he said he was. he said it's useless and a waste of time because most people in the US hate their jobs and don't want to improve it. that's his argument, not mine.
he's talking about alienation, but doesn't know it because he's a theorylet. just because there's alienation doesn't mean the workers are unable to strike or organise. alienation just gets worse as capitalism grows. if people hate their jobs now, wait a bit longer because it will only get worse. and if alienation precludes organising, we're fucked.
luckily, haz is wrong and it doesn't. alienation (hating your job) is the thing that makes you organise, strike and disrupt. alienation is part of the class struggle.
>>4432The funny part is he probably isn't actually anti strike, or at least, wasn't until Sage challenged him, he's just doubling down further and further and further because he can't admit to a mistake.
>>4433I am a unionised service industry worker. If you knew anything about the labour movement you'd know there is a lot of union activity in the US in this area. You don't though, just desperately googling things to further double down in order to sniff youtuber farts.
>>4433>24% of the us economy is finance and like 4% is industry.>Strikers have 0 leverage.holy shit. do you not think service workers are a part of the production process? do you get your groceries from a farm, or from a grocery store, stacked by a clerk, driven by a truck driver, from a warehouse packed by a warehouse worker, driven there by another truck from another warehouse closer to the farm. same applies for industrially made products and everything else. the final price you pay for something includes payment for the service labour that brings it to you, which means their surplus is also being stolen.
hazbots just keep proving they're theorylets.
>>4438sage is fucking annoying, but he is our retard. haz is an outsider who says he was invited. probably by some newfags who haven't been here for past ecelebs.
I think sage's union shit is annoying like a broken record and I like baiting him as much as the next guy, but in this case, objectively, sage is right. the fact that haz can't admit this shows how petty he is.
>>4443this. jannies sucking this guy's dick is sad.
>>4439>grocery storedoesn't have leverage
>stacked by a clerkdoesn't have leverage
>driven by a truck driver, from a warehouse packed by a warehouse worker, driven there by another truck from another warehouse closer to the farmThose have leverage but can be replaced by tech.
>>4454>>grocery store>doesn't have leverage>>stacked by a clerk>doesn't have leverageyet those were the jobs deemed essential around the world and we were told if those people stopped working society would collapse.
the fact is, if the stores around you ran out of food, you wouldn't know where you'd get your next meal from. you'd probably eat your neighbour.
>>4456Or you're just a seething anglo who got triggered by someone with an entirely different philosophical tradition having a different definition than you, and can't let it go. Your anglo-autism is causing you to miss out on a great chance to learn something new and escape the anglo box you've been stuck in for so long.
I couldn't follow what the fuck they were about at first, but the way I approach something new is not to try to pick it apart and hold it up to my anglo scrutiny, but to do my very best to try to understand where they're coming from. Someone having watched a few fragments of their streams, or one or two videos shouldn't be making such harsh judgements already. These guys aren't just random retards who decided to start streaming, they've been a theory group for years and have spent a decade studying these subjects. At least give them a chance.
>>4461maybe because "every oldfag that has debated haz" is a theorylet. Haz has said everything is emotional and that people fight for marxism because of feelings. he also said strikes aren't direct action when they clearly are and his hazbots have been in here arguing that service workers can't strike, despite them doing so around the world and achieving results. this tells me they'll deny reality or facts that don't suit them, in favour of "winning", which is for people who watch epic own compilations from debates.
>>4463>you're just a seething angloI'm slavic.
>Someone having watched a few fragments of their streams, or one or two videos shouldn't be making such harsh judgements already. These guys aren't just random retards who decided to start streaming, they've been a theory group for years and have spent a decade studying these subjects.>spent a decade studying these subjectsAnd the format they use to disseminate their brilliant ideas? Nine hour long livestreams. hahahah
If they want to be taken seriously, they should WRITE like everyone else, not expect people to consume literal days worth of shit material in hopes of swallowing a morsel of wisdom. as it stands, they're just streamers, but instead of video games they browse leftist imageboards, responding to comments without submitting their responses to scrutiny.
you understand that haz looks like he is right because of the format. he responds to comments on an imageboard, but no one can respond to him, he moves onto a next topic and before your brain has had a chance to think about the last thing, he's already onto the next thing. your brain just accepts what he said, because it is easier and allows you to follow along what he's saying, much like you do in a lecture. so how about you give me cliff notes?
Give me five different claims, statements, and/or analyses that you thought were quite poignant, or original, or said something old in a new way. what did haz say that impressed you so much?
>>4466That’s why they like him so much, it makes them feel smart to listen to a bunch of blow hard word salad with some theory jargon thrown in. It’s why the opening thread had the word “heterodox” in it and they kept repeating it, probably a word they heard on some other YouTube stream so they regurgitate it because it sounds smart but they really don’t know what the fuck it means.
>talk a bunch of nonsense >throw in some theory terms >in this moment I am euphoric >brainlets that what to feel smart latch on It is literally Jordan Peterson style pseud shit with some vaush thrown in, but shouted
>>4466>basic marxism but reworded and redefined in the most retarded way possiblenot even, they claim service workers aren't proletarians, using bourgeois economic categories (service industry, manufacturing) instead of marxist categories like productive and unproductive labour.
you know they haven't read Marx, because if they had they wouldn't be saying shit like "service workers have no leverage" or that they're not proletarians. from the man himself:
>Only the narrow-minded bourgeois, who regards the capitalist form of production as its absolute form, hence as the sole natural form of production, can confuse the question of what are productive labour and productive workers from the standpoint of capital with the question of what productive labour is in general, and can therefore be satisfied with the tautological answer that all that labour is productive which produces, which results in a product, or any kind of use value, which has any result at all.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1864/economic/ch02b.htmlol imagine being BTFO beyond the grave by your idol. how will hazbots ever recover?
>>4341My body is steel. I trained for years to be able to poop in complete silence.
>>4403Noo. You are wrong, here is why, I do philosophy. You see, in the words of Heidegger,
the Führer-state as we have it is the consummation of historical development: the realisation of the people in the Führer, my fellow leftists.
>>4421DELET THIS.
>>4465>they're just streamers, but instead of video games they browse leftist imageboards, responding to comments without submitting their responses to scrutiny.No, that's a tiny fraction of what they do, and they do it because it worked, they've grown a lot. And they invite EVERYONE who shits on them to come on stream and have a debate.
>If they want to be taken seriously, they should WRITE like everyone elsePic related
>you understand that haz looks like he is right because of the format. he responds to comments on an imageboard, but no one can respond to himYou've really shown yourself to be a complete fraud. Every stream they've browsed leftypol they've also had people from leftypol on their stream to debate their points, which you'd obviously know if you had watched anything at all, or even browsed the threads where this was discussed. You clearly know absolutely nothing about them, but you have these harsh judgements. Why are you so obsessed with this?
>Give me five different claims, statements, and/or analyses that you thought were quite poignant<The socialist part of the dialectic has become dominant.<Analytical philosophy inhibits dialectical thinking<Land reform being critical / the whole Dasein thing<The necessity for psychoanalysis in understanding modern society.<The anglo curse is real >>4433It's a common thing in the age of Twitter that people aren't fully reading the articles they post, instead they only skim for gotchas. You take it to the next level by posting a simple graph without reading it fully.
If you bother to actually read the graph, you will see that "Industrials" is only one category of industry, used if a company doesn't fit into a more specific one, like chemicals or motor vehicles.
>>4472>The socialist part of the dialectic has become dominant.This means absolutely nothing practically
>Analytical philosophy inhibits dialectical thinkingWho cares, what does this mean practically?
>Land reform being critical / the whole Dasein thingDefine land reform, I mean yeah, land reform of some form is kind of a fucking given
>The necessity for psychoanalysis in understanding modern society.How does this help us achieve socialism? What the fuck does this mean?
>>4472>land reform How light we get that I wonder? Maybe…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_direct_action_groups the list of direct action groups which was used against me yesterday, which included :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_MovementYou guys beat yourselves out so hard
>>4474>what does it really mean *practically*, give me a hard definition I can take into my anglo box, you must be able to communicate these ideas perfectly to find them interesting or wanting to learn morePure fucking anglo.
This video is quite good if you really want something condensed that shows where they're coming from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbu-AAlqDJg&t >>4472><The socialist part of the dialectic has become dominant.that means nothing 0/5
><Analytical philosophy inhibits dialectical thinkingdoesn't say much, other than that marxism and analytical philosophy are incompatible… no shit 0/5
><Land reform being critical / the whole Dasein thingit's a babby reads first philosopher and agrees with everything episode, 0/5
><The necessity for psychoanalysis in understanding modern society.Žižek and Mark Fisher have said this too, but it counts, so 1/5
><The anglo curse is realgave up too soon, still 1/5
>>4483you should call more people anglo over and over,I'm sure it will make them understand they are "anglo".
Of course not being able to express your reasoning is eastern enlightment,we anglo are too behind to understand.
>>4487>I *don't* understand it.and yet you said…
>>4479>This video is quite good if you really want something condensed that shows where they're coming from.So summarise for us where they're coming from.
>>4489You really don't seem to get it, I'm not here to explain or defend anything, I'm here to stop your seething and get you to do some actual research yourself if you're interested in rebutting their positions.
>>4490>but I know it’s correct enough to toss out the historical workers movement This is a very strange strawman. Do you mind clarifying?
>>4491>do some actual research>watch this 30 minute video>actual researchGIMME WORDS ON A PAGE NIGGA
Then this guy
>>4472 says Haz doesn't write anything because people wouldn't understand him. What a fucking joke.
>>4494I don't know what you're talking about, I never claimed to understand it. If you think backpedaling is joining a reading group, you must be retarded.
>>4495Proof of what, exactly? What my claim has been in this is only that you haven't done anything to understand it, not that I understand it. I could have watched 5 minutes of their stream and my positions here would be equally justified.
Wow the infrasimps really are a bunch of retards, at first I was like, meh. Then I was like, lol, now I'm like, can you please fuck off and stop shitting up this board. This is cult like behaviour, in the face of all facts and reality you still shill this retard, with people even saying that they don't understand but agree anyway, what on earth? Know what I think? Lockdown got people lonely and isolated, they are looking for any kind of relationship, and this guy is less far off than the other streamers they watch, he might actually respond to them in chat, so they feel special being part of the club, and he shouts about stuff, and they feel like shouting most of the time but never can really do it because they are weak, and so they flock around this show of strength, even though its just that, a show, based on weak foundations because Haz skips leg day
>>4451so further proof is a mod clique and thats why this thread gets to be outside of the internet general. Shit mod takes and tasts get preference because they are mods.
Sage is literally right about everything. We need a cultural revolution on this board to get rid of internet brained pretentious soy boys
>>4497>with people even saying that they don't understand but agree anyway, what on earth? Where did I say I agree? You're talking out of your fucking ass, but this perfectly fits with the way the Anglo seethers generally act. To them infrared is personal, they must either like the person or dislike the person, which is also why they only think about haz, but never respond to anything anyone else has said. They see his cringe behaviour when he acts like a gorilla, which I agree is cringe, and latch onto that and dismiss it all because they don't want to be associated with cringe.
I think infrared say a lot if things that make intuitive sense to me, they identify many problems within the Western left, and the responses within these threads have just confirmed how unable the Western left is to deal with new things that don't immediately fit in their autism box.
>>4505>>4506Ok, noted.
Move along now, anglo.
>>4508So you have noted that direct action is based and strikes are direct action. Cool. If we can admit this now, I will indeed move along.
>>4507>m…m…make your own thread chat shit get hit bitch, and he chatted shit, and now hes getting hit
>>4510>le anglo Haz is a middle class American. He is a defacto anglo lmao
>>4511this is the Haz thread is it not? The one where the thread maker called me out? I see, so a thread can be made at my expense, but I'm not allowed to respond. Got it, not seems clear to me now.
>>4513Indeed, which one might get into by being in Anglo society, so, middle class America.
>>4514I haven't made any threads at all. Here is you denying observable reality again, for those that want to observe, scroll to the OP, where you will see clearly it was not me who made this thread. Sorry I disagreed with your waifu, will you stop crying if I give you some icecream and a hug?
>>4517I never said you made a thread you illiterate fuck, I said you turned infrared threads into threads about direct autism.
This is not a thread for direct autism, make a thread for direct autism.
>>4519>>4519here you are again, denying observable reality again, here is your post, directly copied and pasted "No, you have made two threads about infrared about direct action. Make a thread about direct action."
>This is not a thread for direct autism, make a thread for direct autism.I am commenting on Haz's position. Lmao what a cuck.
>>4522so haz should stop banging on about Anglos then shouldn't he. I was talking about class position, not race or ethnicity like he is lmao. Radlib idpol is what hes bringing i'll stick to class and class struggle
>>4524You have made about 150 posts about it, which derails the threads entirely. Please make a thread for it, and I'm sure those who are interested will come respond to you there.
>>4525Learning Lacan, Heidegger, Zizek etc.
>>4529Haz argues that strikes at the scale necessary to make change in modern society can not be called direct action because they happen at the level of institution, and are thus indirect action.
Whether you agree or not, fuck sage for derailing the threads with this pedantic shit. Pure fucking autism.
>>4526How does it derail the thread? It is on topic, Haz Haz a position I disagree with, so I am talking about it. No I will not be quiet and go away just because it causes you cognitive dissonance
>>4527Nobody said being poor was an achievement, all I’m saying is strikes and other direct action are a fundamental part of the class struggle.
>>4528So explain exactly how saying strikes are direct action is something to do with analytic philosophy and the British empire then.
>>4530Haz may argue this, I’ve just posted 2 different trade unionists who disagree, on top of posting many of my own arguments. Nobody has actually answered my response: scale and institutional organisation don’t stop them being direct action, because direct action is something which directly intervene in the processes of capitalism, namely, the commodity form, the wage system, rentierism and debt collection. On top of that, as Wade Rathke points out, a strike or direct action on almost any scale requires organising, some actions as he points out are spontaneous, but very few. Answer this: what makes a strike of 100 hotel workers direct action, but a strike of 32,000 teachers not direct action? Where do you draw the line? 150 workers? 1000 workers? Maybe you think it’s lower 50 workers (the staff of a large popular restaurant for example)
>derailing Talking about what Haz believes in the Haz thread is not derailing.
>>4531Thanks, and yes they do.
>>4532That ain’t me kek rent free
>>4530Groups consciously doing things for their benefit requires coordination. You don't have coordination without institutional elements. To decry anything with these elements as haram means you are only left with two options for getting change:
a) being a spectator hoping for superheroes doing it for you (Potterism-Marvelism)
b) joining mobs entirely following their spontaneous whims (like football hooligans).
>>4549>You don't know that at allThat's what this anon said
>>4472 He literally claims Haz hasn't written anything because people wouldn't understand it.
>>4567>Just because you're annoyed with a tripfagThis is beyond annoyance. There were moments on the live stream where 9/10 comments were made by Sage in the chat, and he turned this thread into being about him.
sage, because Sage
>>4575fiction:
>The mods are samefagging and deleted all posts against Hazreality: sage, a tripfag, derail the thread constantly and thus he was banned. every other post critiquing Infrared is still up.
fiction:
>I was banned for telling the truthreality: you were banned because derailing this thread and the live stream itself. You were inviting again and again to have a zoom session with Haz and a live debate, but you are a complete coward.
>>4576fiction:
>I was banned for talking about this topicreality: you were banned for derailing and spamming the thread.
>>4577fiction:
>[Haz] doesn’t [answer everything] he cherry picks and ignores anything that beats him outreality: Sage's "arguments" in that live chat included: "I bet you never had a girlfriend, Haz"
Reminder that Sage is going down the tripfag rabbithole right before our eyes. The kid is clearly insane and should leave the internet for his own sake, unless he wants to end up like Rebel.
>>4580dubious claim:
>The mod who banned me agrees with Hazreality: it doesn't matter if that mode agrees with Haz or not, because you are being banned for derailing, tripfagging up, and spamming the thread. Not everything is about you in this world.
>>4583this
also ban fucking tripfags
I decided without asking permission to create a Reddit for these guys. Since Haz said last stream will be the last time responding to posts on here unless chat demanded him too.
Post memes, screenshots, discussions, etc here. This also means after this thread dies we should calm down and keep discussion contained in /IG/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShowInfrared/>>4599What is the point of writing theory to not release it?
It's worse than those trot groups who make newspapers for their 10 members to read.
>>4602Maybe it's because their theory isn't complete?
Maybe it's because they're not ready to release it?
>>4607Fair. Not sure why people are even bringing it up then.
>>4608I though infrared was burger?
>>4615>Why should I have to?Because you're saying my characterisation is wrong. If it was, then you wouldn't have a problem with coming up with an alternative. but seeing as you can only seethe and say "no" it makes me think I'm close to the mark.
>If you have a problem with him, then fucking appear on his stream or message him.I will do it as soon as I see some sort of claim from him. As it stands, there's literally nothing to debate, he's a guy who comments on internet posts.
>>4621I did. Watch the one a few nights ago, when he was arguing with sage. two things I remember
>everything is emotional, people fight for marxism because of feelings>people hate their jobs, therefore they will not strike, wish to unionise or democratically control their workplacebefore we continue, do you think that is a fair characterisation of those two positions?
>>4624>completely divorced from our respective movements?What do you mean?
>Why do you want theory from some random yankee child who plays video games?Why are you so mad?
>What makes his unreleased theory of more value than hundreds of thousands of others doubtlessly more qualified?Who said it is?
>>4625>baitedThey know this is how to get subscribers from leftypol.
>>4626>They know this is how to get subscribers from leftypol.Yey. A half dozen of the more naive leftypol zoomers. What a coup..
>>4626>What do you mean?I mean he isn't imerssed in leftists projects, activism, academia, anything. He's just some random yankee screaming into a screen and declaring himself the Top Communist despite having contributed exactly nothing.
Btw. It's very obvious you are either this faggot or one of his friends. You are so bad at this.
>>4628>Yey. A half dozen of the more naive leftypol zoomers. What a coup..Like 100 subscribers from leftypol and 70 watching during stream. Pretty nice for such a small channel. And some of our more famous posters like DDR-anon and Ginjeet were on their stream debating/discussing with them.
>Btw. It's very obvious you are either this faggot or one of his friends. You are so bad at this.Lol, some next level paranoia.
>>4626>00 subscribers from leftypolDoubt. Most of them are probably his faggy steam friends.>
>Lol, some next level paranoia.Yes. Because you are here just defending some rando amerifat for absolutely no reason. right.
>>4636Well Haz said he's been a communist for over ten years, when Infrared started might have been later.
The thing is they aren't just bluffing, what they're trying to do is create a platform for 21st century Marxist-Leninist. /leftypol/ found them early and many anons are thus directly engaging with them.
First off all, Haz is an entertaining person. He isn't just a boring nerd, he will use vulgarities and call you names. That's a large reason for their appeal, second is the fact they make some provoking statements that forces you to think about how are political economy is today, and not just dogmatically adopt positions because you read them in a book that was written 100 years ago.
>>4638>they make some provoking statements that forces you to think about how are political economy is todaytell me three of these provoking statements
>not just dogmatically adopt positions because you read them in a book that was written 100 years agothat ain't me, I actually read contemporary theory (like endnotes, for example).
>>4654That last tweet is literally nonsense. What the fuck is an "idle guarantee of truth"? We can debate different theories of knowledge and what constitutes truth, but just writing shit without defining terms is stupid.
>Truth is the conclusion, not premise of living reality.In this moment, I am euphoric.
>>4660entertainment and education. ??? why do you ask so obvious questions.
>>4661That is literally infrared's point.
>>4671and "proles" here is problematic for a bunch of reasons. if you want a tl;dr, whenever the question of "who is a prole" is brought up, there is inevitably someone who believes unless you live in a barrel, you aren't a prole but "muh PMC".
>>4672just watch any of the "debates". they're all really good and not "debate me bro shapiro" garbage.
>I have this epic theoretical work guys I just haven't published it yetMark my words. Haz is going to be the Yanderedev of radical theory.
>>4685>Try making a reddit postlol Hazfags trying to control the conversation. Too bad you can't delete posts here…
>>4708>more strawmanhe claimed that streaming > direct action
only fucking Sage is so dense to still claim that union work / strikes are direct action. How sour you must be, holy fucking shit. Get over it already, dude, you've been BTFO.
>>4626>>completely divorced from our respective movements>What do you mean?What that user means is probably unions and to a lesser extent parties (inb4 getting banned for talking about unions and parties on a "radical" imageboard). Before you sperg out about Keir Starmer or whatever, please be aware that people from other places than the UK or USA are also posting here. From what I gathered I
guess Haz is a NEET with parents rich enough to finance his life. The political views people have are almost always fundamentally anchored by their position in life and only nudged somewhat by theorizing and reading. (Individuals who let themselves be thrown around by the books they read have a screwed intuition about the power of arguments in winning over somebody.) I don't need to know exactly which company people work at, but I want to be sure that the people I interact with are working class. We on the left could avoid a lot of wrecking behavior by narcissists if we simply had some standards of not allowing kids of landlords etc. into our groups.
>>4638>Well Haz said he's been a communist for over ten years, when Infrared started might have been later. >The thing is they aren't just bluffingYou either don't know this or you are talking about yourself in the third person.
>>4655>That last tweet is literally nonsense. What the fuck is an "idle guarantee of truth"?I guess wanting timeless facts when facts change all the time (note that this is not the same as saying everything is subjective opinion; e.g. what is the fastest available means of transportation depends on the time and place).
>>4657 is probably right.
>>4704Yeah. Haz is terrible at communicating common tropes of Marxism to people who are already familiar with them and agree with them.
Don't spend ten minutes with an article I wrote, watch ten hours of me being a sperg on stream (and install proprietary spyware to interact with me, but that's a given). This is atrocious. How is somebody with a full-time job supposed to engage with this?
>>4709>only fucking Sage is so dense to still claim that union work / strikes are direct actionNo, that is very common. Far more common than stating the opposite. English Wikipedia says: "Nonviolent direct action may include sit-ins, strikes, street blockades…" Both German and Spanish Wikipedia list the strike (Streik, huelga) as an example of direct action as well. Wikipedia saying it shouldn't matter much, so here's more.
Émile Pouget wrote in L’action directe that the general strike is the highest form of direct action:
<Et ce sera l’Action directe portée à son maximum : la Grève Générale !Direct Action by Voltairine De Cleyre:
<Every person who ever in his life had a difference with anyone to settle, and went straight to the other persons involved to settle it, either by a peaceable plan or otherwise, was a direct actionist. Examples of such action are strikes…http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/decleyre/sp001334.htmlRudolf Rocker also put strikes forward as an example of direct action.
This Haz guy is just Angry Muke.
>>4711>From what I gathered I guess Haz is a NEET with parents rich enough to finance his life.He's privileged but he's not a NEET. He studies law.
>but I want to be sure that the people I interact with are working class.This is honestly silly. Many famous communists were petty bourg or straight up bourg - Marx, Engels, Lenin, Castro, Che etc.
>>4711>I guess… You guess? Infrared is selling themselves as a serious theory group, we shouldn't be guessing what they mean.
>wanting timeless facts when facts change all the timeThat's a tautology, if you say facts change all the time then it is impossible to have "timeless facts", therefore that's just stating the obvious and not a new contribution.
>>4657 is probably right
How is he probably right? He said "rehashing of marx", which is something you say to sound smart, knowing that no one will challenge it because doing so would be admitting you don't know. And if it's rehashing of Marx, why invent terminology no one knows? And in what way is it a rehashing of Marx?
>>4716>Infrared is selling themselves as a serious theory group, we shouldn't be guessing what they mean.Should be obvious from my post that I don't consider them to be that.
>And in what way is it a rehashing of Marx?Pro-capitalist writers tend to describe capitalism like a plane that is flying, and that has always been flying, and that will never come down. They attribute behaviors specific to the social relations as being due to never-changing aspects of human psychology. For Marxists, a big pile of mainstream common-sense assumptions are either wrong or have an expiration date. I agree that it's not particularly exciting news if you already have even a tiny bit of familiarity with Marx and that Infrared are bad communicators.
>>4716>How is he probably right? He said "rehashing of marx", which is something you say to sound smart, knowing that no one will challenge it because doing so would be admitting you don't know. And if it's rehashing of Marx, why invent terminology no one knows? And in what way is it a rehashing of Marx?All this seethe. If you don't know just ask. wtf.
It's marx's epistemological take. I don't see him "inventing" terminology. Are people not allowed to say marxist things without literally copy pasting marx like scripture?
>>4724>If you don't know just ask. wtf.>It's marx's epistemological take.I asked, you idiot.
>in what way is it a rehashing of Marx?Tell me, oh master marxist, what is Marx's epistemological stance and how is it reflected in the term "idle guarantee of truth"?
>>4723>I agree that it's not particularly exciting news if you already have even a tiny bit of familiarity with Marx and that Infrared are bad communicators.A new kid on the block can't just start spewing shit and assume we know they know what they're talking about. The new kid has to show us they have an understanding of the material, before they start "teaching". If you apply to be a professor, the uni will expect you to show some kind of proof that you know that which you want to teach. But with this guy, we're just supposed to accept he isn't talking nonsense, because he said he has studied it.
I also studied nuclear chemistry, come watch my stream as I DESTROY scientists by browsing arxiv.org, commenting on abstracts.
>>4725>If you apply to be a professor, the uni will expect you to show some kind of proof that you know that which you want to teach. But with this guy, we're just supposed to accept he isn't talking nonsense, because he said he has studied it.If you need an external proof to decide whether something is nonsense then I don't know how you manage to converse with other people. Someone who's not autistic always presupposes the other is making sense, then tries to understand that sense. And if you're into theory your threshold for giving up should be very high. That's how people can read the writings of their enemies, understand their ideology, and then attack it.
>>4726You can't read for shit if you can't understand why he switches the words in those dumb tweets. He uses the notion of "truth" in the first instance because he's talking about facts. In the second instance he's responding to anon's question about meaning, so he uses the notion of "meaning". And it's clear he's trying to piss off the same idiots in the second instance. Haz is obnoxious but you're just retarded.
>>4727your humorless response sucked my happyness away. I'm going to sleep now.
>>4725"there is no idle, self-subsisting, and air-tight guarantee of truth"
He's saying that there is no stand alone and static objective knowledge. Haz is criticizing science/logical positivist bros that think that we know "objective static truth" that can be ascertained with empirical evidence. Marx argues against the same here:
>The main defect of all hitherto-existing materialism — that of Feuerbach included — is that the Object [as in Object in the Subject-Object], actuality, sensuousness (sensory experience), are conceived only in the form of the object [actual material objects], or of contemplation [contemplation of objects], but not as human sensuous [aka sensory] activity, practice [Praxis], not subjectively.And
> Feuerbach speaks in particular of the perception of natural science; he mentions secrets which are disclosed only to the eye of the physicist and chemist; but where would natural science be without industry and commerce?These "secrets" are the "facts" that are demanded. Marx is saying that the sensous activity is part of the activity of revolutionizing thought and technology.
I'm really tired, but as you can see, many of the words are similar and the message is in the same vein.
"Truth is rather forever suspended in the work and the process that give rise to its very enunciation. Truth is the conclusion, not the premise of living reality".
Here's marx:
>Feuerbach wants sensuous objects [phenomenal objects], differentiated from thought-objects, but he does not conceive human activity itself as objective activity. In "The Essence of Christianity", he therefore regards the theoretical attitude as the only genuinely human attitude, while practice [Praxis] is conceived and defined only in its dirty-Jewish form of appearance ["the down and dirty form of appearence"]. Hence he does not grasp the significance of ‘revolutionary’, of ‘practical-critical’, activity.>The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-change can be conceived and rationally understood only as revolutionary practice. >>4730>He's saying that there is no stand alone and static objective knowledge. Haz is criticizing science/logical positivist bros that think that we know "objective static truth" that can be ascertained with empirical evidence.This is nothing new. He's not adding anything to the debate, he's just repeating old arguments in a new way. That's all i wanted someone to say. Then that begs the obvious question, why should we listen to Haz when we can just go to the original arguments, since they were written down and can be accessed whenever (a concept that infrared fails to grasp).
If Infrared's schtick is reviving old debates with new terminology for the youtube gamer crowd, that's fine, have at it. But the hazbots in the thread have been defending them as scholars (law student, spent decades learning theory, etc.) and synthesisers of new theory. So that's why I haven't been attacking the content of the arguments, but their form.
>>4732>This is nothing new.Then why did you make me type that out…
I was responding to the question saying he was talking out of his ass, and that he was Jordan Peterson or something. I said it was just a rehash of Marx's argument. I got called out, so I responded with relevant passages comparing the content.
You're playing a disingenuous game here. Haz was responding to his haters, pointing out their mistakes by saying "yo, your shit's fucked because muh facts is retarded".
Then it was said "oh, he's just inventing stuff now"
To which I responded "no, he's just saying marxist stuff, specifically from marx"
To which it was responded "muh pseud, you're bluffing, you don't know what you're talking about"
Then I responded "here are some relevant passages".
Then (You) responded: "no actually haz can't argue with marxism because that's nothing new".
>>4732Clearly this same old tired stuff needs to be repeated if anglo "marxists" still refuse to get it. From what I've seen Infrared didn't want to take this path, but people were calling them schizos, so here we are.
And they're right in bringing up Heidegger because the main project of Heidegger is an attack on this autism.
>>4733>Old arguments that are still relevant?Against whom? Who is making these positivist claims, against which Haz has to argue? This is how academic argumentation works.
>someone makes a claim<if you disagree, you write their argument in a way that shows you understand it<then you argue against itMarx didn't just start writing, he started off with a critique of political economy. You can't just write arguments like an old man screaming at the sky.
>>4735You're right, I moved the goalpost. Yes, you explained it. What they wrote though is convoluted and one must know what they're trying to say to understand.
I actually agree with their
overall argument, I don't like the way they make it. This bit "Truth is the conclusion, not the premise of living reality" is still stupid and it reeks of 2deep4me, it isn't saying anything.
>>4736But Heidegger is just a stepping stone, and to stay with Heidegger for too long would be a mistake, since he's just the imprint, the shadow, the imitation, the Luigi to the Super-Mario of my thought, that is: Hitler. You see, only by fusing Lacan with Hitler can you be a ready Marxist in the 21st century.
Give me money on Patreon, so my team can hire professional memers to spread the news to children in various gaming communities.
>>4740>Heidegger = HitlerI had a Jewish philosophy professor who translated Heidegger’s Black Notebooks into our native language (so was perfectly aware of his nazi shit) while still teaching Heidegger because he knew he was indispensable for modern thought.
Are you anti-deutsch, or a radlib antifa by chance? Because sure as hell that's the intellectual level you operate on.
>>4749Marx never really defined socialism and only gestured at what he thought communism meant, and honestly it doesn’t matter if we “live in socialism” or not. I think I get the gist of what that guy Haz might mean, even if I’m not totally familiar with his shit. He probably means that corporations have changed the way we relate to capital, so that capital has become instantiated in these big public institutions that transcend traditional capital ownership. They’re literally “public”, even within capitalist frameworks their considered to be public entities that are not quite owned by individuals, but merely pay interest to individuals for their capital. Shareholders don’t truly own the company, they hold a financial asset that entitles them to distributions at the discretion of the board, and for the most part investors don’t control the board. A 5% stake in a company is considered significant by the SEC, most shareholders are very small and when they aren’t they’re just other financial institutions. Bezos only owns ~10% of Amazon or so.
Which is to say that we live in a partially public capitalism, one that actually socialized a lot of property but “socialized” merely means that the property is a kind of engine of value production that is not privately owned. You can buy seats on the engine, and it’ll give you some money for your investment, but it basically has a legal obligation to work in your interest, and the regulator can actually determine if the corporation’s managers are fulfilling their obligation.
>>4711Based
>>4710Also based
>>4709Rent free
>>4758Oops, yep. quoted the wrong post.
>>4759they have also stated that they have essays already written that they plan on releasing when they have a more stable following.
>>4767They are not retards though, multiple anons from this site went on their stream and ""debated"" or rather laid out their disagreements. All these dialogues ended up being fruitful and only highlighted a difference in perspective, they have a solid theoretical foundation.
Honestly I feel like you distancing yourself from them by calling them retards on an anonymous imageboard is just your way of feeling good about yourself and give you some kind of feeling of superiority, which honestly is kinda sad.
>>4772I think their reasoning for saying that strikes aren't direct action is because of how they define direct action more specifically 'direct'.
They actually engage with people who disagree with them, you could probably get them to respond this by posting a youtube comment, tweet, or whatever.
>>4772Haz clearly said that strikes are good
his definition of direct action just excludes strikes and as a continental anarchist I have to say that my defibition of direct action never included strikes so idk
>>4781I don't get what the fuck is going on here. It's like 60% anti-marxism, 30% incomprehensible philosophy, and 10% regurgitated basic marxism but redefined really poorly.
These people are screaming that we're being dogmatic and close minded, but you can't expect to come in, be a bunch of really aggressive contrarian assholes, and expect us to take you seriously in the slightest.
>>4785that's not anything related to what I fucking said what is wrong with people on this site caricaturizing opposing views before they even know what others are saying
in fact, it's NEVER about "words mean nuffin" but actually the OPPOSITE, words actually meaning something concrete rather than an abstract descriptor. Is utilizing your brain to think too tiresome for you or something?
>>4788 (me)
This turned into a rant that you didn't deserve. Sorry.
>>4787Stop gaslighting your shit opinions, sage.
>>4783Quote from there:
>Direct action here refers to action on the shop floor using the power of workers in their position as the life-blood of social production. This includes strikes…Esperanto Wikipedia also mentions strikes as an example of direct action (Ekzemploj de neviolenta rekta ago (ankaŭ konata kiel neperforta rezisto aŭ ĝentila rezisto) povas inkludi sidstrikojn, strikojn…), as does Italian Wikipedia (scioperi).
The analytical dapper planter costume nerd guy Infrared was criticizing just got canceled and fired by the eternal Anglo publication for offending his editor.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/02/how-the-media-cracks-down-on-critics-of-israel>>4793Infrared, invite based Ismail onto the stream.
>>4802This mfer was like "Lenin isn't a true Socialis. He was autoritarian!!!"
What a retard. I don't feel sympathy for him one bit
>>4797This post is interesting as it demonstrates language skills which as is known is impossible for the anglo. Dictionary definitions are however not relevant for serious discussions.
>>4781>threshold for direct actionIs direct action your god?
It's not direct action as it goes beyond direct action not the other way around.
>>4801Even Chapos were dunking on him for reformism
, but the uniform choice admittedly is quite cool.
last chance to make a reddit post to have Infrared react to upcoming stream.
If you want to start some drama, now is your chance.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShowInfrared/>>4801This article is wild.
>“If Washington D.C. crumbled to the ground, the last thing that would remain is our support for Israel,”> if there was no Israel, the United States “would have to invent an Israel”lol america
They can't keep getting away with it.
>The subject line of Mulholland’s was “private and confidential.” I reprint it in full herereal gangsta shit
The guardian is really a disgusting gang.
>>4825>All 12 too scared to name themselves and get mentally dominated by me, Sage. KekWhy are tripfags so mental?
The appeal of chans has always been the anonyminity, the fact you are taking every argument for only itself and not the entity making the argument. fuck off both you and the haz infared faggot.
>>48281 minute in the stream and Sage posts 90% of chat comments.
HOW. PATHETIC. THIS. DUDE. IS.
HAZ, HEAR ME, IT IS I, SAGE. I HEREBY LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLENT, COME DEBATE ME BRO, TEXT FORMAT, ME VERSUS YOU, THE SUBJECT: ARE STRIKES DIRECT ACTION? they are no I won't come on your stream, I have a life, you can post on here just fine, or any other text based medium of your choice, that provides anonymity b there, or be dominated mentally, again.
>>4835>>4835>dox yourself No. kek.
>>4836simply stating the facts.
>>4848Every good story arc has a good payoff.
I'm enjoying this eceleb arc so far, and I'm really hoping it doesn't peter out.
give us a good finale pl0x
anarchismAnarchism >>4848>muh doxxingIt's 2021. And you live in the UK where you don't get killed for being a leftist.
Grow some balls or kindly
SHUT THE FUCK UP.
>>4849no
>>4850my voice is regularly broadcast. So no.
>>4852If people recognise your voice its a dox kek.
>>4851get Haz to come here and debate me and I will humiliate him even more than I already have and it will be glorious. Neutral environment, all he has to do is make a tripcode.
>>4854No but I lose my job as a leftist.
>>4856meh anybody who has been paying attention knows the details, bottom line, I aint doxxing myself, and Haz could easily debate me here, in a text based format, point by point, source by source, nothing skimmed over, nothing left out, neutral enviroment where nobody loses anything (apart from Haz, losing the argument )
>>4872You have to be haz's
#2 biggest fan then, because he welcomes /pol/ trolls.
This is, as a wrestler would say, a work.
>>4867>learning from gamersRead a book you pseud
>>4872>Psued yank infared doesn't understand internets.unsurprised.
>>4872>grow organicallywew
The platform operates in a specific way. "Organic" spreading is a joke and only going to hinder the propagation of his ideas.
>>4883>>4882Kiam vi lernos esperanton leftypol?
>>4883They do not believe this 'organic' meme. I do not believe nobody, not even the american can be this stupid.
>>4895>I have a lifeHe insists for the fifth evening in a row, hanging out on /leftypol/ all day and harassing some streamer
This discussion is unbelievably boring and I don't understand how your mind has degenerated to this point.
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