/leftypol_archive/ - leftypol archive

>>591452
What would you say is the principle difference between antagonism and contradiction
To me, contradiction is the prefigurement of any relation in its failure to reach wholeness (like how kant's Reason must be limited so as to even have knowledge of itself. Here, the limit is the contradiction which gives meaning to its self-relation).
In the same way, the relations of production are prefigured by their contradiction between master and slave, generally, which give meaning to both positions in their integrity to the concept of production.
Take the caste system for example, it says that every person has their purpose - yet, contradictions assert themselves within this natural order, which is why it has to be forced on people, even as an "organic" system. Capitalism is obviously the same.
In this sense it could be said that the primal contradiction spawns antagonism as its active mode. Once contradiction comes into consciousness we are forced to act, where even our non-action is still an action.
>Also, the labor-capital relation is not a "contradiction" but merely one of opposites.
What underlies dialectics is the "unity of opposites" (coincidencia oppositorum) which to me is already the contradictory prefigurement of any social arrangement, that we are bound to eachother, as selves, yet we have our relation to ourselves through eachother (like how in psychoanalysis we do things to impress others rather than for any self-sufficient solipsism. We dont get naked in public for example. Lacan famously says that we even have sex for the other, but to have ourselves recognised in the other's pleasure - porn is a true example. How the woman must always enjoy the sex, it is never just for the man. And even in the most perverse sense, a rapist will have the fantasy that the woman secretly "wanted it", or a pedo will say the kid was "asking for it". Here we always act with this reference to the other. This is hegel's "mutual recognition" magnified to its objective condition).
Contradiction in this most primal sense is how we need a mirror to see ourselves, and our reflection becomes what we appeal to. We know ourselves through the other, just like the proletariat and bourgeoisie create themselves through each other.

>"the labor aristocracy is a pervasive and pernicious myth"
<tweet sent from my African child slave labor iPhone as I sip Latin child slave labor coffee with my other art critic friends who work for some vaguely anticommunist CIA NGO
>>591364
>living standards in the imperial core are a result of the development of the productive forces and of class struggle, and not some un-Marxian nonsense like unequal exchange
Denying your history of nazi imperialist genocide and enslavement of workers, very unexpected from the labor aristocracy class of /pol/ nazis. No proletarian would waste their time trying to distract from reality…only someone in the same class as the reptilian redditors at /r/Neoliberal would feel the need to say these things
>>591423
>as if African workers are entitled to more stuff for being less productive than European workers
Calling people trying to resist their colonization and enslavement "entitled" for wanting control over the land under their feet, totally not the words of an out of touch parasitic aristocracy!
>>591392
>Why are you subsuming all strata of 'third world' societies into an abstract singular 'mass' or 'people', thereby ignoring the vast internal social divisions within these states?
"The labor aristocracy isn't real because the countries my friends steal from also steal from themselves" nice goalpost shifting
> the equation thus becomes 'poor = oppressed = revolutionary' (how simple indeed),
The labor aristocracy is forced to deny the most basic tenet of Marxism so they need to obscure reality with their gamerhair philosophy
>>591350
>The west lives in luxury while africa lives in shit
the labor aristocracy isn't real, which is why these degenerate nazi 4chan posters are all talking about going to Africa to pick plastic:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/08/plastic-waste-spiralling-out-of-control-across-africa-analysis-shows

>>591455
>gamerhair philosophy
uphold gamer bump thought

>>591298
you're a labor aristocracy DENIER
tellmethere'snolaboraristocracy
TELLMETHERE'SNOLABORARISTOCRACY

>>591457
I'LL KILL YOU, I'LL KILL YOU
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
I'LL KILL YOU, I'LL KILL YOU
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
TANK THINKS CHINA IS IMPERIALIST
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
GET THE FUCK OFF MY STREAM
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
HE'S A LYIN' PIECE OF SHIT
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
TANK THINKS CHINA'S IMPERIALIST
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
HE'S A LYING PIECE OF SHIT
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
GET THE FUCK OFF MY STREAM
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
HE'S A FUCKIN LIB DOING BREADTUBE
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
AHHHHHHHH:IDKJF:SLKDJF:LSIKDJFL:DSFK
FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT
df;ASJFA:LFJL:AKDJF:LDFKJDL:Fk
FAGGOT! FAGGOT! FAGGOT!
YOU'RE A FUCKING FAGGOT!
PUSSY! I'LL FUCKIN KILL YOU.
I'LL GO TO FUCKIN NEW YORK AND KILL YO ASS.
YOU NON ARAB PIECE OF SHIT
YOU A FUCKIN ZIONIST
DO IT DO IT DO IT
OH I WILL
YOU A WHITE PERSON
YOU AINT A FUCKIN ARAB
IF YOU DON'T SPEAK ARABIC YOU AIN'T AN ARAB
YOU JUST SAID CHINA IS IMPERIALIST IN AFRICA
n-no i didn't, i said…
YES YOU FUCKIN DID MOTHERFUCKER
CAPITALISTS CAN'T MAKE ANY PROFIT EXPORTIN (???)
THAT'S WHY THEY BLOUGHT AFRICANS IN THE FIRST PLACE
okay…
MARX TALKS ABOUT IT IN DAS KAPITAL
doesmarxsaythatthelaboraristocracy
YES YOU STUPID BASTARD IT'S THE LAST CHAPTER YOU STUPID BASTARD
last chapter of what, which volume
DAS KAPITAL VOLUME ONE
ok let's look at the last chapter
READ IT! READ IT MOTHERFUCKER!
YOU DON'T SPEAK ARABIC! YOU DON'T SPEAK ANY ARABIC!
YOU A WHITE DUDE! YOU A WHITE DUDE!
AND YOU'RE A LABOR ARISTOCRACY DENIER!
TELL US
TELL US THERE'S NO LABOR ARISTOCRACY!
TELL US THERE'S NO LABOR ARISTOCRACY!
TELL US WHAT YOU THINK! TELL US YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN IT!
TELL US YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE LABOR ARISTOCRACY!
TELL ME TELL ME THERE'S NO FUCKIN LABOR ARISTOCRACY!
TELL ME THERE'S NO LABOR ARISTOCRACY!

>>591455

holy based

>>591459
Original sin stories are reactionary. Don't reify race.

>>591460
>understanding settler colonialism exists is the same as moralism and shaming people for some form of "original sin"
ok retard
read settlers, i promise the book won't bite you

>>591457
funny seeing haz beat at his own game

>>591458
(lyrics)

>>591459
I have a VERY STUPID question that I've been afraid to ask. And I'm sorry if this sounds like concern trolling or whatever. Believe me, it's not. I'm just really this stupid…

I can understand the narrative that America was settled and colonized by non-indigenous and stolen from indigenous.

But I can't understand this narrative with Israel/Palestine.

Don't get me wrong, death to the zionist entity, free Palestine, Israel is absolutely doing genocide, etc. etc. etc.

BUT

How are the Palestinians "indigenous"? The Levant lies at the crossroads of 3 continents. Asia, Europe, and Africa. It has been taken through conquest and settled so many times that it's impossible to figure that anybody is "indigenous" to the region. The Palestinians are relatively indigenous compared to the mostly European/North American zionist settlers, but really I'd argue nobody has been truly "indigenous" in the sense of "first humans to settle the region" since the paleolithic.

What constitutes indigenity in a place like that?

>>591464
The burden isn't on the Palestinians. Israelis are clearly migrants, and they are actively trying to get "lebensraum".

>>591464
how can you understand america but not israel?
>europeans go to another continent
>they start killing and displacing the people who live there
>they keep expanding their land grabs because god gave them the right to
>ethnical cleansing ensues
try to guess which one i’m describing between america and israel
spoiler: it’s both

Honestly the problem with the Labor Aristocracy shit is it seems more vibes based than anything. And a lot of the people who like using it will sometimes treat it as a hard category or science when there’s really no way of measuring it. If one measures the relative “privilege” of a national working class against the global working class then you end up with the usual silly argument that “everyone in the west is Labor Aristocracy” and even then you haven’t delineated any clear measure for how much privilege is too much? Is it measured in wages? Assets? The type of labor? What?

I mean I think it’s safe to say the category can work if we’re talking about, like, a “business union” that works more to keep the laborers compliant for the bosses, but even then that’s just a vibe—and what makes that absurd is it seems like the people who shout the loudest about how optics or messaging don’t matter “because those are idealism” seem to enjoy this wholly subjective concept of “labor aristocracy”.

Sakai would throw around random percentages (“60% of this group are labor aristocrats!”) but conveniently never explained how he arrived at those numbers, because the truth is that adding a percentage to some term makes it look more scientific than it actually is.

>>591465
I agree with this and stated as such. My question is irrelevant to the current political situation. I'm not saying the Palestinians are burdened to prove they're indigenous to anyone, because it's kind of besides the point when they are being genocided. My question is a little more abstract and philosophical. I guess I'm asking is why is the settler-colonial framework being applied at all when nobody is truly indigenous? Isn't the real problem simply that Palestinians are being genocided?
>>591466
If you carefully read my post I'm not trying to justify what the Israelis are doing.
>Don't get me wrong, death to the zionist entity, free Palestine, Israel is absolutely doing genocide, etc. etc. etc.
Regarding the United States, the indigenous people were the very first people on the continent, whereas with the levant, the place has been settled and resettled by people with different cultural and national identities over and over again. I know this "it's complicated" narrative is used by liberal zionists to obfuscate the genocide of palestinians under a vid related style of bullshit, but I'm simply asking why are Palestinians regarded as "indigenous" when Muslims first came to the region from the Arab Peninsula in the middle ages. The levant hasn't had an indigenous people since the Canaanites, and even then, they probably weren't really the first there either. I shouldn't have asked. It's honestly irrelevant. I regret asking. I guess the framework of indigenous identity just confuses me in any place that hasn't really ever been owned by one group of people.

>>591455
> >"the labor aristocracy is a pervasive and pernicious myth"
<Letter sent on paper made from the Latin American logging operation as I sip my coffee cultivated on other LatAm plantations and tuck in my cotton shirt made from cotton picked on American slave plantations
By your logic the proletariat has always been a labor aristocracy moralist retard
Capitalism has always used slavery for a lot of raw material extraction

>>591468
> I know this "it's complicated" narrative is used by liberal zionists to obfuscate the genocide of palestinians under a vid related style of bullshit
forgot vid related

>>591467
>Obsession with Sakai
t. Thin skinned white

You don't understand OP, I resent my Ohio whiteboy neighbors and I will have BLOODY REVENGE for their CRINGE

>>591467
Vibes-based reasoning is a poison that's basically infected the entire anglophonic left and then some

We are really fucked

>>591457
>>591458
You okay there

>This is the subject that breaks the board's collective mind every time that's brought up

We ain't gonna make it are we

>>591475
>we should consider how capitalist forces created and use whiteness to further imperialist, settler colonialist interests and break class solidarity apart
becomes
<YOU WANT TO KILL ALL THE MAYOS

I don't get it.

>>591476
1. The internet makes people stupid because we all use it as a surrogate for the kinds of lives we could lead if not for the rampant social alienation under capitalism + the way social media and electronic media is built under it fries your brain and hits your emotional response button

2. irony-poisoned weirdos end up alienating everyone else with mayocide posting

3. race is a sensitive issue and people find it hard to engage without feeling like they're getting finger-wagged at from either side of this argument

>>591477 (me)
>2. irony-poisoned weirdos end up alienating everyone else with mayocide posting

should be elaborated as

>>2. irony-poisoned weirdos end up alienating everyone else with mayocide posting because it's hard to convey tone over the internet and it's not always clear to people that most of it is sarcastic edgeposting or people just venting over how fucked everything is due to ongoing damage wrought by settler colonialism

>>591477
And because nearly all of supposed Settler-enjoyers aren't prepared to take it to its logical extreme. Only one nation on Earth succeeded in fully decolonizing itself temporarily, to a detriment according to its detractors. Democratic Kampuchea proved a fully indigenous movement could seize power in its homeland and revert back to a precolonial state. But such an undertaking can only occur with immense human willpower, and a readiness to face the inability to come. Industry, medicine, and education have to be recreated from scratch, otherwise you are just resettling your land/mind. Otherwise settler-colonialism will persist onward in the form of your people's consciousness.

>>591455
>tweet sent from my African child slave labor iPhone as I sip Latin child slave labor coffee with my other art critic friends who work for some vaguely anticommunist CIA NGO
big mad. child slaves make terrible workers. no amount of moralist screeching will suddenly make child slave labour more productive or more valuable. this means they are in fact not particularly exploited, neither in absolute nor in relative terms
>Denying your history of nazi imperialist genocide and enslavement of workers, very unexpected from the labor aristocracy class of /pol/ nazis. No proletarian would waste their time trying to distract from reality…only someone in the same class as the reptilian redditors at /r/Neoliberal would feel the need to say these things
I'm sorry if you feel bad about basic Marxian concepts being applied to the present situation
slavery is historically regressive, and tends to lower both the value and productivity of the labour power enslaved. this is why the South lost the US Civil War
>Calling people trying to resist their colonization and enslavement "entitled" for wanting control over the land under their feet, totally not the words of an out of touch parasitic aristocracy!
see here how the moralfag, blinded by their rage, suggests that the more productive workers in the imperial core should accept shirking from less productive workers in the periphery. such a situation would mean that workers in the periphery, in addition to being less productive, would in fact be net beneficiaries of social labour flowing form the core. they would, since they contribute less value to the system than they in turn receive, in effect become exploiters themselves
the moralfag is prevented from seeing ways of rectifying the situation, such as raising the productivity of the periphery to the level of the core, which would have spillover effects on the value of labour power in the periphery. better still would be world revolution of course, whereby a massive planned program of levelling productivity could be carried out. from the perspective of us today, this would be akin to exporting (transporting) yet more capital (MoPs) to the periphery than Porky does today
what your average unequalexchangetard seems to think is that raw materials in the ground have some intrinsic value, which they don't. it doesn't matter how much raw material is le extracted since that material has no value in itself

>>591461
>caring about the feelings of a category populated by dead people is worth the time
Nah, moralists really should be lobotomized

>>591481
why do two workers doing the same job but living in different countries receive different compensation? try to explain this without having an aneurysm if you think unequal exchange doesn’t exist

>>591481
Economic determinism is a neoliberal infection that asks us to adopt the logic of Homo oeconomicus. Engels already told you you were retarded.
<According to the Materialist Conception of History, the factor which is in the last instance decisive in history is the production and reproduction of actual life. More than this neither Marx nor myself ever claimed. If now someone has distorted the meaning in such a way that the economic factor is the only decisive one, this man has changed the above proposition into an abstract, absurd phrase which says nothing. The economic situation is the base, but the different parts of the structure-the political forms of the class struggle and its results, the constitutions established by the victorious class after the battle is won, forms of law and even the reflections of all these real struggles in the brains of the participants, political theories, juridical, philosophical, religious opinions, and their further development into dogmatic systems-all this exercises also its influence on the development of the historical struggles and in cases determines their form. It is under the mutual influence of all these factors that, rejecting the infinitesimal number of accidental occurrences (that is, things and happenings whose intimate sense is so far removed and of so little probability that we can consider them non-existent, and can ignore them), that the economical movement is ultimately carried out. Otherwise the application of the theory to any period of history would be easier than the solution of any simple equation.

>>591481
>big mad. child slaves make terrible workers. no amount of moralist screeching will suddenly make child slave labour more productive or more valuable. this means they are in fact not particularly exploited, neither in absolute nor in relative terms


How? because of their age or working condition?

>>591434
>>591436
>>591438
>>591357
>>591355

I cannot believe the amount of copium thats generated on this thread.

>>591483
Different cost of reproduction of labour + spoils of past class struggle.
100€ in europe you starve to death, but the same 100€ make you middle class in some underdeveloped countries.

>>591483
>doing the same job
which jobs are you talking about exactly? an Indian steel worker and a US steel worker do "the same job", but the latter is far more productive, and so there is more wiggle room for them to demand higher wages. but those workers, nota bene, are not necessarily in proportion to their productivity. the cost of living in the core is also higher, and the cost of living forms part of the value of the labour power
if US steel plants have a higher OCC than Indian steel plants, then in addition to s being larger for US workers, s/v may likely be larger as well, if s/(c+v) is to be maintained. hence why it is possible for workers in the core to be more exploited, not less
>>591485
>How? because of their age or working condition?
because they are not very productive, the amount of value and therefore surplus value they can produce is low. the amount of value they embody is also low, the value of labour power increasing as it ages, as it receives food, education, experience etc..
the fact that children aren't particularly exploited of course doesn't mean that child slavery is good. the need for investing in its own labour power is part of the reason why British porkies allowed public education reforms, such education paying off in the long run. class struggle on the part of the workers also played a part of course. Porky was able to abstain from profits generated by children because it would pay off in the long run, the child labour being better spend on the children themselves (homework etc). this is by no means a static state of affairs however - Porky is busy dismantling public education in the core. the reason for this may partly be due to automation making it possible to make do with fewer highly-trained workers

>>591489
>but those workers
but those wages

>>591486
Yeah revisionists third worldists get mad when you point out their bullshit

>>591486
Yeah third-worldists cope big time when you point out that the west is cannibalizing itself and it's not the 70s anymore

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

>>591453
>>591454
good posts

>>591482
>a category populated by dead people
hate to break it to you anon but "israelis" is not a category of dead people, yet

>>591475
>breaks the board's collective mind
from the beginning its been a vocal minority spamming the thread

>>591476
you must have a very stupid liberal definition of imperialism to only apply it to white people or think its special when white people do it

>>591486
lol ok third worlders treating the us as a super duper awesome country to live in just to support their lib victim narrative is hilarious

>>591455
>muh iphones
>muh nazis
psyop or satire, call it

>he was referring to a section of highly skilled laborers that commanded exclusive control over the trade unions at a time, a tendency that disappeared in his lifetime itself
Explain vidrel then.

J. Sakai and his consequences have been a disaster.

Anyone using the liberal definition of imperialism that isn't even close to Lenin's (who rejected applying it to individual actors in the first place) despite constantly dropping his name demonstrates a child's understanding of the state, politics and national competition. Bonus points when they invoke moral judgements.

>>591461
Capitalist nations I arbitrarily define as bad in some way ('settler colonial') should not exist. Other capitalist nations however are perfectly fine and can carry on.

>>591482
>>591487
None of them can even coherently define it without lapsing into metaphysical notions about nationality and migration. Even the 'very clear' description posted by Mickey Duck uses vague phrases like 'seeking a homeland' and doesn't even touch concretely upon class relations.

I could use these ill-defined historical parameters to say that Cornwall is being settler-colonized by the English and hence needs 'freedom' (i.e. its own independent bourgeois state):

<Can't believe they're just going to deny the Cxrnishx (PoC) struggle for national-democratic rejuvenation when unequal exchange is happening between Truro and London as we speak. What next, denying Jerriais independence? Fucking English chauvinists, literally Goebbelsian.