/lgbt/ - LGBT

There's nothing inherently invalidating about it, you are just choosing to take it that way. Gender is a social construct that people are socialized to believe, and if gender didnt exist at all then neither would dysphoria so being trans wouldnt be a thing. If trans peoples brains were inherently different from cis people, then that would make it a disorder or disability, which it isnt. It just sounds like another version of the trans soul essence theory to me

>>4289
I don't disagree that gender is a social construct, obviously it is. But being trans really is not just about gender. Gender roles are when I get depressed about not looking good in a dress. Hating my penis (something that I did before I even knew that cis girls don't have them) is obviously something else.

>>4288
You are a biological essentialist.

>>4291
I wouldn't say that. I think there probably are some people for whom it really is just a fashion choice and I believe they should still be able to access hormones or surgeries or whatever else they want to look the way they like. But I also think that for me and many other people it's definitely a biological thing and I don't get why that's controversial, and I find it insulting that what is very much a real medical issue doesn't get treated as such by people who favour the social explanation.

>>4292
Because gender isn't biological.

>>4293
Well as I said despite the name being transgender really isn't just about gender, it's about sex too. If I had the choice between looking female and still being treated like a man by society or looking male and being treated like a woman by society I would pick the first option every time without a second thought. Not to say I don't also want to socially be a woman but I have my priorities to it and that's obviously something more than just gender.

>>4290
Then would that make trans people who dont have bottom dysphoria invalid?

It would make them have to come to terms with cisness too being socially caused, and that both can be eliminated by the simple non-act of not assigning people genders at birth.

>>4296 (me)
Oh I misread OP
>>4288
It doesn't invalidate you to not have some magic gender gene. Even genetics is intertwined with lived experience, hence epigenetics, so something being social is merely another case of you being formed by lived experience.

>>4295
I think transness can be an umbrella that includes anyone who wants to transition their gender/sex presentation to any significant degree for any reason, even if for some people it really is just basically a fashion choice. But it's still important to note that people who suffer from serious gender dysphoria exist and that it's an actual medical issue for them and not just a social construct.

My problem is with the people who discount the idea of a physiological origin for transness (or gender dysphoria if you prefer) entirely, I've even seen people call it a fascist concept. I think it's absurd.

>>4299
I figured just having the wrong gender imposed on you causes stress that breaks stuff, so it creates a phisiological issue from a social issue.

>>4299
I still suffer from serious gender dysphoria, I still feel hatred and disgust at my broad shoulders, tall height, body hair, etc. I certainly dont want to be trans just as a fashion statement. However I believe that I honestly wouldnt have dysphoria if the concept of gender never existed.

Plus if the only male thing about your body that you didnt like before you knew was your bottom area, then it could just be entirely possible that you just arbitrarily didnt like how it looks, without it inherently being a sign of bottom dysphoria being present at that time

>>4301
Yeah and I just don't believe this would apply to me. I would still have dysphoria about my body even if I lived on a deserted island and had never met another human. Not in the same way of course, I doubt I would care much about like body hair in that situation, but I think I would absolutely still hate my penis or my lack of breasts or other primary/secondary sex characteristics even if I couldn't fully articulate why.

>>4300
My problem with this is that I can think of no other psychological condition that causes as much distress as dysphoria does and that doesn't have some physiological element to it, even personality disorders and anorexia have a lot of evidence pointing towards a genetic origin (which doesn't mean they aren't still socially influenced of course). I just can't believe that people are getting oneshotted with this much psychological distress purely because of socialization. I've also never seen anyone explain what this supposed socialization that would cause transness actually is. Any psychologist can explain how toxic beauty standards can cause anorexia or how childhood abuse can lead to personality disorders but no one can articulate why some people have gender dysphoria and some don't.

And again, I'm not denying that there is an obvious social element to transness or that there aren't people for whom it may be entirely social. I just think it's bad to discount a physiological origin entirely.

>>4302
Ive heard the whole deserted island thing before and it honestly makes me really question if im truly trans. It seems like every trans woman answers that questions saying that they would somehow magically still feel dysphoric about body parts they have no knowledge exists, meanwhile my first response to seeing the deserted island questionw as that I wouldnt care about my body or gender if i was raised alone on a deserted island. Maybe I'm just faking and I shouldnt go through with transitioning afterall

>>4305
I've never heard of this question before but
>they would somehow magically still feel dysphoric about body parts they have no knowledge exists
They can literally only make this assumption while they already have the knowledge, they would have no way of possibly knowing what they would really feel in that hypothetical because it cannot possibly be experienced.

>>4305
>Maybe I'm just faking and I shouldnt go through with transitioning afterall
If you want to look like a different sex or gender then you're trans and should transition regardless. You should look like how you want to and it doesn't matter if your dysphoria has the same source as mine or if you're even dysphoric at all.

I think it's really evil how some people push the physiological argument to deny other people their bodily autonomy, my point is just that it's important to recognize dysphoria is a real medical issue that absolutely requires medical intervention for at least some trans people and not just a social problem.

>they would somehow magically still feel dysphoric about body parts they have no knowledge exists
I don't think it's magic, I think the human brain just has some part of it that "knows" how it's supposed to look and gets distressed when it doesn't, and in some people that part gets intersexed and causes dysphoria. Of course I can't prove the deserted island hypothetical but there is evidence of brain structure differences between cis and trans people and I've never seen socialization only proponents offer any explanation of how said socialization would happen.

>>4309
>the human brain just has some part of it that "knows" how it's supposed to look
Ok that’s just straight up gender essentialism lol. Also socialization does impact how the brain forms significantly. Studies have shown that the brains between normal children, and feral children (kids who weren’t raised by anyone and had no human interaction) have wildly different brains so yes socialization can have physiological effects

>>4310
>Ok that’s just straight up gender essentialism lol
I mean I don't think your brain has a part that says "you are a woman you need to wear make up and wash the dishes and submit to your husband" or something like that, but recognizing basic parts of your anatomy? Yeah.
>Also socialization does impact how the brain forms significantly. Studies have shown that the brains between normal children, and feral children (kids who weren’t raised by anyone and had no human interaction) have wildly different brains so yes socialization can have physiological effects
I didn't know about that but it's not very surprising to me given the extreme conditions of a feral child. What I would be interested to see is if something like religious identity can be linked to different brain structures (I would expect not), I think that would be a much better analogue for gender identity.

>>4309
I kinda want to look like the opposite gender, but I mostly just dont want to end up looking like an old man.

I know youre trying to be nice by syaing i can be trans but all the things you said previously, aswell as the things many other trans people say, kinda contradict that. If our brains are fundamentally different then that means we arent the same. Which means im not the same as other trans people, it means theres something wrong with me. Every other trans person instantly says that they would still experience dysphoria even if raised without the concept of gender, and the fact im the only one who doesnt think that shows theres something deeply wrong with me that makes me fundamentally seperate from a trans person. Im just a imposter

>>4312
> can be trans but all the things you said previously, aswell as the things many other trans people say, kinda contradict that. If our brains are fundamentally different then that means we arent the same.
I have never said there's only one way to be trans, we can be different and both be trans. I just think for me gender dysphoria is a serious medical issue and for you it may not be.
>Every other trans person instantly says that they would still experience dysphoria even if raised without the concept of gender
Every other trans person in this thread except for me seems to disagree with that, so clearly that's not true.
> the fact im the only one who doesnt think that shows theres something deeply wrong with me that makes me fundamentally seperate from a trans person. Im just a imposter
The fact that you're being so hard on yourself about this honestly makes me feel like you are dysphoric and just don't really realize it. Sometimes you don't recognize the negative feelings you have as dysphoria until later, it wasn't automatic for me either.
>I mostly just dont want to end up looking like an old man.
Certainly sounds like dysphoria to me.

I love you anon, I hope you figure this out and I really don't want you to take anything I've said in this thread and meaning you can't really be trans. That's never been my intention.

>>4288
it can be a dialectical relation of both social and biologically innate factors

>>4313
>Every other trans person in this thread except for me seems to disagree with that, so clearly that's not true.
Well, you cant exactly be sure that the people disagreeing with you are trans unless they directly said so. Plus this is a pretty niche community, on more popular communities like trans subreddits i see people expressing the same viewpoint as you extremely often.
>Sometimes you don't recognize the negative feelings you have as dysphoria until later, it wasn't automatic for me either.
Yeah, thats true. But its also true that detransitioners think they feel dysphoria just to later realize its fake. I could just be misconscrewing regular negative feelings as being a result of dysphoria when they actually arent. I dont want to start hrt just to realize my feelings were all fake. Becoming a detransitioner is unironically one of my worst nightmares.
>I just think for me gender dysphoria is a serious medical issue and for you it may not be.
That inherently makes your trasness more valid than mine. If I dont need to medically transition then im not as trans as someone who actually does. Theres thousands of transmeds who would say that im not really trans too.
I understand its not your intention to say im not trans, but the evidence just seems to prove my fear that im not truly trans

>>4315
>But its also true that detransitioners think they feel dysphoria just to later realize its fake.
The vast majority of detransitioners are people who are either forced into it or are doing it for political reasons. People who made an actual mistake and regret it do exist but it's vanishingly rare.
>I dont want to start hrt just to realize my feelings were all fake. Becoming a detransitioner is unironically one of my worst nightmares.
Just starting HRT alone isn't going to change anything immediately, you're not growing to grow tits or turn sterile overnight. But at least for me I felt almost immediate relief within the first week just from having the hormones in my system. It's worth at least trying.
>That inherently makes your trasness more valid than mine
That's dumb. Imagine someone who goes on a vegetarian diet for health reasons vs someone who does it for ethical ones vs someone who just plain doesn't like the taste of meat. Is one of these more "valid" than another? Is one of them fake vegetarian? There can be multiple reasons to be a vegetarian and there can be multiple reasons to be transgender. I need it for medical reasons, you may need for another reason. Both are valid.
>Theres thousands of transmeds who would say that im not really trans too.
Fuck them, who cares.

You can be trans just because you want to be and that's totally fine.

>>4315
As a trans woman I think I wouldn't have gender dysphoria without a concept of gender having been imposed on me, becausa it's the imposition of such things that made it an issue. That said I think if I had the opportunity to do HRT, choose my manner of speech, etc… I probably still would even without the framing of gender, the various things that society has decided make up womanlikeness just seem more practical to me, more areodynamic. I usually preferred pointy things growing up and femininity is pointy to me. Just more of a kiki type gal, ya know?

>>4288
undialectical
>>4314
>it can be
is*

>>4316
>Just starting HRT alone isn't going to change anything immediately, you're not growing to grow tits or turn sterile overnight. But at least for me I felt almost immediate relief within the first week just from having the hormones in my system. It's worth at least trying.
Well, I already have bica on the way in a few weeks, which i think im supposed to do for a few weeks before estrogen, so ill just listen to you and try it, but idk if it will actually make me feel any better until i actually get to the estrogen. Im just worried ill second guess myself again like I always do and then coward out of starting estrogen when the time comes.
>Imagine someone who goes on a vegetarian diet for health reasons vs someone who does it for ethical ones vs someone who just plain doesn't like the taste of meat. Is one of these more "valid" than another?
I guess i wouldnt say that any of them are invalid, but doing it for health reasons would still be the most valid reason. I suppose that logic could also be applied to transitioning, so I guess my reason for wanting to transition isnt exactly invalid or fake, but its still not as valid as you and most other trans peoples' reason is, and it still sucks to know that im not as valid compared to others.
>Fuck them, who cares.
Totally get the sentiment, but I cant help but worry about what if they are right and that im just some freak

Thanks for making me feel somewhat more confident in transitiong though. I guess that the answer to the original thread would be that being trans can both be caused by socializarion or physiological components, but it seems like the people with physiological reasons for transitioning are the vast majority of trans people anyways and are the most valid ones

>>4300
If there is absolutely no biological component to gender how can a gender be "imposed" on you? You would just "learn" that gender.
This is only a question if you don't think gender resides outside of the brain or the material reality obviously.

>>4320
>If there is absolutely no biological component to gender how can a gender be "imposed" on you?
To assign someone a gender at birth and insists strict dicipline to the expectation of that gender is indeed an imposition, no reason biology would need to be a component for that to be true.
>You would just "learn" that gender.
Well see that depends on the logistics of our on-an-island scenerio, because learn it from what?

>>4321
Sorry, I didn't asked the right question, let me do it again.
How can a you impose someone the "wrong" gender if it's socially determined and has no biological component to it?

>learn it from what?
From socialization.

>>4320
>This is only a question if you don't think gender resides outside of the brain or the material reality obviously.
Nothing sociological exists outside material reality because the base shapes the superstructure. I think your mistake is misdiagnosing what part of the base led to which part of the superstructure.

>>4323
>How can a you impose someone the "wrong" gender if it's socially determined and has no biological component to it?
Why biological specifically, of the numerous things that form a person? If you put someone in a petri dish, pinned to a table and only fed them the necessary sensory inputs needed for them to be a gender, you could probably guarantee cisgenderism.

>>4319
if morons on image boards seriously sway your decision one way or another you shouldnt make decisions

>>4327
I know. Im incredibly indecisive. I genuinely cannot make any slightly impactful decisions on my own. Idk whats wrong with me lol

>>4328
I struggled with that a few years ago, best advice I can give is practice. Maybe get into art or something to speed up the development of those skills, that's when mine started to pick up speed.

>>4324
>Nothing sociological exists outside material reality
I know, I was saying that sarcastically.

>>4325
>Why biological specifically, of the numerous things that form a person?
Because biology is the only thing besides what happened in the womb you get when you are born and you get a gender imposed on.
And I am not saying you can't be transgender without dysphoria, but I think there is a small biological component to gender.

>If you put someone in a petri dish, pinned to a table and only fed them the necessary sensory inputs needed for them to be a gender, you could probably guarantee [the gender you like].
Then why couldn't they make David Reimer a girl

>>4325
>probably
This is my issue with the socialization theory. There's no hard proof of it being physiological either but there's at least some decent evidence pointing towards that, like brain structure or various statically significant comorbidities like autism and EDS. And sure, it could just be that people with those conditions are just more likely to undergo the socialization that makes someone trans but I see no pattern there with how those conditions are treated socially vs others that would cause that. And in general I've never seen anyone explain what kind of socialization would cause transness to begin with. There are trans people who were always GNC and those who weren't, who identified as trans early on and who didn't, who come from progressive families or cultures and who don't, etc. With something like anorexia people have established very direct correlation between certain cultures, lifestyle choices, even things like what jobs you work or sports you play and the development of anorexia. No one has done this for gender dysphoria or transness. It just feels like a very "god of the gaps" situation where socialization is just assumed as the default and that's what annoys me. Again I'm not even denying that there are social influences, there probably are to some degree, but I wish someone would articulate what those supposedly are! Why do people who were raised in very conservative families in very conservative countries with very traditional gender roles still turn out trans sometimes? It makes no sense.

>>4330
>Because biology is the only thing besides what happened in the womb you get when you are born and you get a gender imposed on.
That seems extremely overly simplistic. Socializing is as complex as society is.