You know that Cockshott article?
Cockshott, P. (2020). Class, Demography, and Gay Politics in the West. World Review of Political Economy, 11(1).
and his writings on gays being more likely to have petty bourgeois class interests due to household income disparities?
I don't wholly agree with him, and there are several critiques of his paper to be made – e. g. his neglect of finer stratification within the 'LGBT movement', his making no attempt to account for confounding variables (which research into the economics of gender and sexuality is fraught with), his bold acceptance of income as a proxy of class – but it seems to me that his analysis can be extrapolated well to cover some aspects of transhumanistdom (which he seems to completely gloss over in his work).
If we apply his analysis to transhumanists, we will find that they rank below all other gender groups in come; moreover, in the case of transsexuals, they incur additional medical costs throughout their lives while being very commonly cut off from traditional familial economic support. Therefore, they are expected to be less likely to espouse petty bourgeois class interests, transgender women especially so. We see exactly that in the high rates of radicalization among them; we also see that lesbians are the most eager allies to transhumanists among cis people, which aligns with Cockshott's identification of them as the more progressive of the LG. This analysis can also be leveraged to explain the lower political mobilization of transgender men vs. women, the neoliberal co-optation of transgenderism vs. transsexualism etc., but that's stepping into the territory of lacking data and/or unquantifiable metrics.
I suppose that makes transhumanists the proletarians of gender….. or perhaps the lumpen
please tell me if this is silly or if i happened to misunderstand Cockshott
i fucked up the edit on the third image because i'm retarded
swap trans and cis
>>7078>petty bourgeois class interests due to household income what about having employees and control over the means of production?
also relevant:
https://artandlaborpodcast.com/podcast/208-the-trans-bourgeoisie/ >>7080yeah, like i said in the post, one of the criticisms to be made is that Cockshott uses income as a proxy for class (see Section 2.1 of his article). also note that members of the petty bourgeoisie (according to the standard definition) may or may sell their own labor / own means of production. i don't intend to critique the article in question however (as has already been done by more capable scholars), just to remark that its analysis extrapolates surprisingly well to phenomena Cockshott appears to be ignorant of
thanks for the link, i'll try to listen through that soon
torposting bc my vpn is banned
>>7078As a working class gay anon I'll admit that nearly of the petty bourgeois lgbtsqiaa2s+ anons in the world I've met were your run-of-the-mill, regular gay men.
I do think at level of Jungian or Reichian psychoanalysis can fill in the socio-cultural gaps that Cockshott leaves out. From my anecdotal account porky transhumanists are as likely to get cut off as prole transhumanists
Gay man os the easiest to pass as normie imo. Just the same as any other bachelor economically. Work, spend, die.
Cockshott isn't worth taking seriously on this. He joined the Alba party instead of any socialist org.
That may seem benign if you're unfamiliar with Scottish politics but it's a damning indictment of his judgement. Alba is basically the Scottish national party (e.g. socdems) with only three policy differences
- Soft climate change denial
- Anti-transgenderism and a general social conservative vibe
- Trying to rehabilitate the reputation of the disgraced Alex Salmond and undermine the SNP for prosecuting him for allegations of sex offences
Because nobody actually wanted that platform, Alba has never had a single elected representative (they all defected from other parties) and is currently deeply in debt, having spent as much money as the Scottish Greens at the last Scottish election (£200,000ish) where the Greens got 7 seats and they got none, while all their MPs/MSPs have either lost their seats or quit the party.
This is to point to the conclusion that he's starting with bigotry and then justifying it ex-post facto, which is the only model that can explain him joining Alba. No sensible analysis-lead approach would support doing that, even as a TERFy socdem Scottish nationalist.
>31% of Cis-Straight-Men don't like trans people compared to 18% of Cis-Straight-Women
Okay I was just scrolling the overboard and I just gotta stop to ask, Why are us cishetmoids so Transphobic? Like obviously Transphobia is just a reactionary distraction by the ruling class to divide the working class just like every other Phobia and Ism but wouldn't this apply to Women as well? Because 31 to 18 is a big gap so why are Cishetfoids less hateful than us Cishetmoids? What is the material explanation?
>>7085while agree that he's not worth taking seriously on transhumanists (if you read the article you'll see he doesn't even mention them) and whatever he calls the 'LGBT movement', his materialist explanation of the gender pay gap appears sound to me. In my opinion, even an ill-conceived analysis can be made use of by applying its redeemable parts.
>>7087The one proposed by Cockshott (wage gap advantage => closer to 'propertied classes' in interests), or that cisheterosexual men benefit highly from the present patriarchal and heteronormative social order, which is why it is in their interest to preserve it and why their group norms/structures feed its preservation (pretty much the same as Cockshott, but not tied to one quantifiable metric),.
I also recognize that all of the phenomena I've spoken of can seemingly be explained with traditionally posited social factors (patriarchy, LGBT solidarity, transmisogyny etc.) and their interaction (or intersection, if you will…), but an explanation from income inequality has the benefit of (a) not requiring any of the additional sociological machinery, and (b) being grounded in a quantifiable and projectable metric.
>>7088
>>7089
The scientific evidence suggests that such gender differences are not hormonal or somehow innate, but socially conditioned. To name a few arguments against such analyses: patriarchal social structures are not universal in human societies, women appear to engage in about as much social aggression as men but go about it differently (more indirectly), gender differences in aggression arise well before the onset of puberty and after the beginning of socialization.
I think we ought to recognize and dismantle the social conditioning that gives rise to these differences rather than acting and judging based off sentiment
>>7078>incur additional medical costs throughout their liveswholly unnecessary costs
>sign up for a lifetime of surgeries and supplements<complain about the costs >>7095Estrogen is a cheap generic medication also given to menopausal cis women and most people simply can't afford surgery. The vast bulk of any additional medical expenses incurred are price gouging.
>>7095Where in this thread did you see such complaints? This is a discussion about economic reality. You considering some consumption 'unnecessary' and ascribing moral value to it is immaterial.
It seems that you read (or scrolled?) past the actual economic analysis to leave a reply expressing your personal distaste for transhumanists.
>>7097Surgery is extremely expensive and necessary for transitioning adults. This is unironically a reason I think trans people are tied to socialism, because most of us won't be able to get all the surgeries we need. A peasant can get oestrogen but she will never be able to get surgery. The question is if the socialism that trans are pushed towards is proletarian or bourgeois.
What kind of OP is this?
This seems completely irrelevant
believe it or not, minorities exist, have their own interests, and take up positions within the class struggle depending on the economic basis of their existence. if you have issues with Cockshott's analysis, you can read the article and voice them – i do too. gender antagonism is a class antagonism, this is only extrapolating the analysis of man-woman gender antagonism to encompass other sexual groups as well
are you upset that there is a post about lgbt people on the /lgbt/ board?
>>7087It's probably genetical
Hetmoids can't help themselves but being hateful bigoted antisocial violent subhumans, hetmoids aren't only the most transphobic but also homophobic, racist, xenophobic and any vile antisocial belief you can hold really
It's probably something to do with lack of prefrontal cortex development, hetmoids shift closer to reptilian brain than mammal ones, I'd dare to say over 80% of hetero males are functional sociopaths
>>7194Problem? 90% of all men are hetmoids!
>>7087Maybe because of patriarchal standards? Have you considered that?
Also the assumption that women aren’t discriminatory?
Also, most women are only tolerant of the glamorized portrayals of trans folk.
>>7194Your theory holds no water
Also “prefrontal cortex” development doesn’t affect personal preferences as much as you think.
There’s no genetic answer, it’s all purely sociological.
Also, cishet females are discriminatory as well but they get a lot more sympathy so their discrimination is more diffused
>>7247True, it's like as if society "hates men", or at least that's what retarded manosphere cucks believe.
>>7247Football concussions + alcoholism + male privilege = brain damage.
The sociological is physiological.
>>7194>It's probably genetical>Hetmoids can't help themselves but being hateful bigoted antisocial violent subhumans, hetmoids aren't only the most transphobic but also homophobic, racist, xenophobic and any vile antisocial belief you can hold really>It's probably something to do with lack of prefrontal cortex development, hetmoids shift closer to reptilian brain than mammal ones, I'd dare to say over 80% of hetero males are functional sociopathsSorry but this made me laugh, your little doing the same Somali autism score rates and Black crime statistics bullshit that Chuds do but against Straight Men and that’s kinda funny. I agree with
>>7247 that transphobia among us Hetmoids is social conditioning. You see here is a good example, my parents were never transphobic but they did fail to teach me anything about transgenderism so when I was 10 I was really confused and concerned when my neighbor’s kid who was my little brother’s age came out as Nonbinary because I had no idea that transgenderism was a thing or that there were more than two genders, I was so confused that I felt frustrated and it didn’t help that I had to remember pronouns, luckily I was 10 and had no internet access so I had to rely on my parents for information so I didn’t fall down any pipelines which would cause my confusion to turn into hatred. But if a hetmoid doesn’t have good friends and family members who can guide them then they are to believe whatever the right wing media says.
>Cockshott, P. (2020). Class, Demography, and Gay Politics in the West. World Review of Political Economy, 11(1) and his writings on gays being more likely to have petty bourgeois class interests due to household income disparities?
But he has already been proven right? A plurality or majority of gay men in a few Western countries are already voting for far-right and neo-fascist parties over others, most notably in France, Italy and Germany according to several surveys.
>>7278
>>7279
>>7280
Cringe idealist mumbo-jumbo. Cockshott's analysis is sound and rooted in materialist analysis and as time moves on has shown itself more and more vindicated. You are just mad because you suffer from idpol bamboozlement, thinking that there is something inherent about lgbt people that makes them immune from capitalist appropiration.
>>7279
Andrew Tate. Elliot Rodgers. Juraj Krajčik.
A few of the many hetmoid seethers that occupy society
>>7279
A majority of transitioning males are "het moods"
>>7392
Why are you trying to white-wash growing far-right tendencies within the lgbt community? What is your motivation behind this deflection?
>>7390>Individual gay men earn 10% more than straight men with similar education, experience and job profiles,[3] and individual gay men who are married have a significantly higher median income than heterosexual married men.
>The economic advantages gay men experience in the US is most striking in poverty rates. Among married households, 2.7% of gay men live in poverty, while 4.2% of opposite-sex married couples live in poverty. Without men's salaries to account for, 5% of same-sex female couples live in poverty.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_wage_gapWhy are you lying?
>>7402The second point doesnt mean much considering marriage rate being much lower for gay men.
>>7405Yes that's why I posted the first paragraph that is already pre-emptinh your post by talking about individual men. So where is your argument?
>>7402well yeah, everyone loves gay men and wants them on the team. gay men add that *spice* that you really can't get from breeders or other lgbtqiaa2s+ folx
>>7414Breeders need to be sent to gulags and to make children for the LGBT+ overlords
>>7402>>7402Individual gay men earn more (on the US solely) due to the fact gay men are higher autism score than hetmoids and get rewarded for more competent jobs
Hetmoids are also too busy sexually harassing their female coworkers instead of doing their job
Gay men trying to copy nuclear families are a white upper middle class meme and this doesn't prove anything
Nice try, hetmoid
>>7424Gay men are notorious for sexually harassing their fellow gay male peers.
And individual gay men ring paid more is due to DEI.
Also, most LGBT folk really do try to copy the nuclear family structure
>>7392
This is a false narrative you choose to believe
>>7430The joke truly is on you
Hetero males are proven statistically (by the own op nonenthless) to be the most violent, hateful, antisocial and discriminatory demography by far
>>7429>Gay men are notorious for sexually harassingA complete inversion of reality
Queer men can't even publicly address their sexuality without risking verbal and even physical abuse from hetmoid coworkers let alone harassing other gay men
Hetmoids dominate every single criminal statistic especially sexual related ones
>>7433>>7432Keep coping
Also alot of women and LGBT are racist and sexist towards brown people.
>>7424>>7402>>7429>>7437THIS IS NOT CLASS ANALYSIS. THIS IS NOT MARXISM.
>>7259But it’s not genetic though.
It’s socio-physical
Also what “male privilege”?
You know that men are the ones who do most of the dangerous jobs such as construction, welding, garbage, etc?
that fat fucking retard academic cant even get marx's theory of value right and im supposed to listen to him on fucking gender and sexuality? HAHAHAHA peak leftoidis
>>7437True. White LGBT people in college always looked at me as if I am a pile of shit.
>>7437They are here on leftypol en-force. I've seen that they tend to be more racist than any other. Lot of Trans-Nazis and such.
>>7275>? A plurality or majority of gay men in a few Western countries are already voting for far-right and neo-fascist parties over othersat significantly greater proportions then men in general??
>>7424>(on the US solely)yeah doesnt cockshotts analysis rely on first world data which is unrepresentative of proletarian men generally, gay or otherwise? the majority of gay men are closeted or otherwise go unreported wrt income. pretty sure this was brought up to him before(it was) and he handwaved it and asked for evidence(lol)
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